23 replies to this topic

[fifth]

I've got bipolar and have been prescribed all sorts of medications but the newest one I've tried is Lamictal. It works but it sucks the life out of you. I finally found a psych doc who is open to alternatives, binaural beats, yoga, chakras, hippy stones etc. I've got an app with him coming up in the beginning of March and am working on a list of alternative supplements to treat bipolar, anxiety and insomnia possibly caused by lamictal. The goal is to get him on my side and use his knowledge to my advantage without getting prescribed some horrible medications.

Anyways, I was hoping someone could point me in the direction of some research both for and against lamictal. Just was looking on the forums and I learned it could possibly be blocking a bunch of receptors which doesn't sound good to me. After being on risperdal for a few months I'm very much against taking any more mind numbing medications. I know I'm crazy but dang people you don't have to drug me up to the point of not being able to think!

I've been looking at taking Lithium Orotate. Been taking 5mg of melatonin at night to help with insomnia. That and Lunesta which I gotta say has some pretty neat side affects. Vivid dreams, looking at the lights is kinda like being on a super low dose of shrooms. Needless to say it helps but the more natural I go at this point the better I'd feel.

After searching for a bit mematine seems to be a possible replacement.

[jadamgo]

Why lithium orotate rather than lithium carbonate? Might as well let your pdoc prescribe the lithium in a known effective dose range, and monitor serum levels -- and tell him you won't put up with a bunch of side effects, neither physical nor mental. Keep the levels low enough that you don't have to go to the bathroom all the time, or feel slowed down or stupefied.

[fifth]

Why lithium orotate rather than lithium carbonate? Might as well let your pdoc prescribe the lithium in a known effective dose range, and monitor serum levels -- and tell him you won't put up with a bunch of side effects, neither physical nor mental. Keep the levels low enough that you don't have to go to the bathroom all the time, or feel slowed down or stupefied.

Mainly because I've read that lithium carbonate can cause more negative side effects then lithium orate. That and I'd feel better if it was natural. Read: more likely to take it.

[jadamgo]

Ok. Best of luck with it, and BTW don't be afraid to play with dosage. A lot. Just so you know, 300mg lithium carbonate has the same amount of lithium as 1300mg lithium orotate. This is because the orotate ion is a lot heavier than the carbonate ion. Given that the average bipolar person takes about 1200mg of lithium a day, and I don't buy the unsupported claims that lithium orotate produces higher serum levels than lithium carbonate, you'd have to take 5.2 grams of lithium orotate every day to get the same amount of lithium as an average bipolar person. At approximately 120mg per pill, that's 43 tablets.

Personally, when I started lithium augmentation for drug-resistant MDD, I took 7 tablets lithium orotate in the morning and 8 at night. That's the equivalent of 400mg lithium carbonate per day, a standard dose for antidepressant augmentation in MDD.

If I had known that lithium chloride was used in scientific studies as a highly-effective nausea-inducing compound, I would have kept buying the expensive orotate instead of buying lab-grade lithium chloride. It was cheaper, but I got what I paid for...

Edited by jadamgo, 07 February 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[fifth]

Ok. Best of luck with it, and BTW don't be afraid to play with dosage. A lot. Just so you know, 300mg lithium carbonate has the same amount of lithium as 1300mg lithium orotate. This is because the orotate ion is a lot heavier than the carbonate ion. Given that the average bipolar person takes about 1200mg of lithium a day, and I don't buy the unsupported claims that lithium orotate produces higher serum levels than lithium carbonate, you'd have to take 5.2 grams of lithium orotate every day to get the same amount of lithium as an average bipolar person. At approximately 120mg per pill, that's 43 tablets.

Personally, when I started lithium augmentation for drug-resistant MDD, I took 7 tablets lithium orotate in the morning and 8 at night. That's the equivalent of 400mg lithium carbonate per day, a standard dose for antidepressant augmentation in MDD.

If I had known that lithium chloride was used in scientific studies as a highly-effective nausea-inducing compound, I would have kept buying the expensive orotate instead of buying lab-grade lithium chloride. It was cheaper, but I got what I paid for...

That's interesting, maybe my sources were wrong. If it's carbonate insurance will cover it so I'll be playing around with it. Although 1200mg is alot. I'd be more comfortably upping it 50mg at a time. I'm super cautious about taking more medication then necessary.

[jadamgo]

Yes, and that's very prudent with all psychoactive meds, especially lithium. If you go even a few hundred milligrams over the optimum dosage, side effects increase drastically and outweigh the benefits.

The upside to lithium orotate is that each tablet contains only 5mg of lithium ion, which is of course the active ingredient. This makes it very easy to fine-tune the dosage, 5mg at a time.

Lithium carbonate tablets come in 150mg, 200mg, and 300mg sizes, which come out to 28mg, 37.5mg, and 55mg of lithium ion, respectively. So it can be harder to fine-tune the dosage. That's why they also make a lithium carbonate syrup, which can of course be measured out as finely as you like.

P.S. to clarify the above post, the average bipolar person takes around 1200mg of lithium carbonate, not lithium ion. It's 225 mg of pure lithium ion.

[fifth]

Thanks dude. Just hoping the doctor will think the same thing.

They make a syrup? I've never heard of this. I'd be interested in seeing about that as your right finely tuning the dosage to me is extremely important.

BTW dude have you had any success with other drugs for treating bipolar symptoms? Assuming you have bipolar or the knowledge of.

[stablemind]

Thanks dude. Just hoping the doctor will think the same thing.

They make a syrup? I've never heard of this. I'd be interested in seeing about that as your right finely tuning the dosage to me is extremely important.

BTW dude have you had any success with other drugs for treating bipolar symptoms? Assuming you have bipolar or the knowledge of.

What has helped me:

Lithium Carbonate- for mood stabilization / antidepressant effects
Seroquel XR- for sleep / mood stabilization
ALCAR- for mood stabilization/energy
Piracetam- for antidepressant effects (i recommend using this after you are already on mood stabilizers)
Pramiracetam- for memory
NAC- seems to be effective according to some studies

YMMV

[jadamgo]

Thanks dude. Just hoping the doctor will think the same thing.

They make a syrup? I've never heard of this. I'd be interested in seeing about that as your right finely tuning the dosage to me is extremely important.

BTW dude have you had any success with other drugs for treating bipolar symptoms? Assuming you have bipolar or the knowledge of.

I was MDD, not bipolar, but I have some knowledge of bipolar disorder. Some combination of long-term mood stabilizers (lithium, lamictal, valproate, carbamazepine, levetiracetam), short-term anti-manic drugs (antipsychotics, typical or atypical), cognitive/behavioral therapy, and bright light therapy in the middle of the day (NOT in the morning!) is usually as effective as any psychiatric treatment can be.

EDIT: Let me clarify what I'm saying here -- many pdocs prescribe atypical antipsychotics as long-term mood stabilizers. My point here is that antipsychotics can work great as short-term stabilizers, but the cost/benefit ratio for long-term use is not as good as for lithium and the anticonvulsants. There are too many side effects and not enough benefits. But in the next paragraph, I describe their successful use as short-term anti-manic drugs, which has a very good cost/benefit ratio.

The short-term treatment of manic/mixed symptoms with antipsychotics can be a lifesaver. My stepmom is Bipolar I, and she takes Haldol only when she notices the beginning of mania or mixed episodes. It really helps a lot, because the haldol completely halts whatever fucked up thing is happening in her brain. While her 10 years of CBT works well for depression, only the Haldol stops mania. (She can't take mood stabilizers because she also has multiple sclerosis, and the mood stabilizers cause her to have frequent symptom attacks.)

As for mood stabilizers, lithium is of course taken at the same dose every single day. However, all the other ones can be taken long-term in low doses, or only as short-term anti-manic or anti-mixed-episode drugs, or both. Some people take chronic low-dose mood stabilizers and double or triple their dosage at the beginning of an episode. Keppra (Levetiracetam), in particular, seems to have a powerful fast-stabilizing quality that will quell mania just as rapidly as Haldol or Zyprexa. Also, being a racetam, Keppra is known for not making you feel stupid, as most anti-manic drugs do. In fact, some people report feeling smarter on it, as if it were acting like our other racetam friends Piracetam and Oxiracetam.

For more on the differences between mood stabilizers (and for just a lot of generally useful information), check out the official Crazy Meds website. That link will take you to the "mood stabilizer" page.

As for supplements, I simply don't know anything about using them for bipolar disorder because neither my bipolar mother nor stepmother take any supplements aside from multivitamins. They do both notice that taking the vitamin every day helps some, so I do suggest that. (Also, I once gave my stepmom take a DopaBean mucuna pruriens capsule one morning when she ran out of coffee unexpectedly. Two hours later she was yelling at me, slamming doors, and kicking me out of the house. I then conducted a brief literature review, which revealed that levodopa can trigger dysphoric mania. So I emphatically recommend you NOT take DopaBean.)

Miscellaneous: Bipolar people should only take antidepressant pharmaceuticals cautiously, with daily mood charting, under the care of a psychiatrist (and possibly also psychologist) who specializes in mood disorders. Antidepressants are more likely to harm bipolar people than to help them, though there are of course some exceptions. Don't get suckered in by any of that astro-turfed "hype" for Symbyax or any other antipsychotic/antidepressant combo; it's simply not good medicine for most people.

Edited by jadamgo, 08 February 2013 - 06:03 AM.

[fifth]

Been reading more about piracetam and how it works by increasing the rate in which our brains can process neurotransmitters. That could lead to mania and more grandiose thoughts then normal. When in mania for me it tends to be hypo mania and not full blown "I'm god" mania. Get more of an energy boost, increased awareness and generally not knowing what to do in social situations which really sucks.

Another forum post mentioned aniracetam with some research on it's effect for bipolar 1. Interested in that more the piracetam. Seems like something with research behind it should be tried first and not last. Concerned about the ability to judge whether or not it's causing mania or other effects but with a docs help I should be alright.

Ooh I really like crazymeds. They've got some good stuff that you typically don't find elsewhere, even from the doctors!

Currently taking lamictal and it's side effects are horrible. Hair loss? Really doc I'm 25 and hair loss is happening, NO! Headaches, never had problems until this lamictal showed up in my life. Oh well in the next month I'll be getting my medications changed. Still doing some research on alternative medications and the effects they have on a bipolar patient but I suspect success will be in the near future.

[medievil]

Hmm id see those as possible alternatives:

Nefiracetam
Tiagabine
Levetiracetam
High dose methylene blue
Gabatril or amisulpiride eventually combined with one of above.

Nac

[stablemind]

Been reading more about piracetam and how it works by increasing the rate in which our brains can process neurotransmitters. That could lead to mania and more grandiose thoughts then normal. When in mania for me it tends to be hypo mania and not full blown "I'm god" mania. Get more of an energy boost, increased awareness and generally not knowing what to do in social situations which really sucks.

Another forum post mentioned aniracetam with some research on it's effect for bipolar 1. Interested in that more the piracetam. Seems like something with research behind it should be tried first and not last. Concerned about the ability to judge whether or not it's causing mania or other effects but with a docs help I should be alright.

Ooh I really like crazymeds. They've got some good stuff that you typically don't find elsewhere, even from the doctors!

Currently taking lamictal and it's side effects are horrible. Hair loss? Really doc I'm 25 and hair loss is happening, NO! Headaches, never had problems until this lamictal showed up in my life. Oh well in the next month I'll be getting my medications changed. Still doing some research on alternative medications and the effects they have on a bipolar patient but I suspect success will be in the near future.

You may want to switch Lamictal to Lithium. Side effects are rare at lower dosages, and you won't experience the "swings" that you go through when titrating Lamictal. Piracetam can cause hypomania/mania pretty easily for those with BP but it's also a very potent mood enhancer which can lift one out of depression pretty quickly. It's worth a shot, I found Magnesium Glycinate to really help with the hypomania part when taken at night so I didn't have to worry as much. I stopped taking it though because it seems to effect my short-term memory when taken daily.

[fifth]

Hmm id see those as possible alternatives:

Nefiracetam
Tiagabine
Levetiracetam
High dose methylene blue
Gabatril or amisulpiride eventually combined with one of above.

Nac

After short research Nefiracetam has some stuff going for it. Cholinergic effects the parasympathetic nervous system which is mainly from what I understand effects how calm you are.
I'll pass on Tiagabine as it's pharmaceutically made and I've been on gabapentin which is similar The way I explained it to the doc: Picture eight lanes horizontal to each other with traffic going nonstop, when I take gabapentin 4 of those lanes in the back part of my brain get eliminated. She kept me on it until I stopped seeing her.

The methylene blue sound good on paper but will it actually cause reputable effects is still not known.


NAC is for a must for the "to add" list. Just the fact that it supports healthy live function is enough for me to try it. Considering a lot of drugs are metabolized through the liver (except Lamictal, kidneys) it's potential to help is considerable.

stablemind,

As far as magnesium goes I've been taking ZMA made my Optimum Nutrition and have been happy with it's ability to help me sleep and recover from any muscle injury's sustained during the day. Haven't noticed any short term memory loss yet. I'll be keeping an eye out for it when taking it again.

Written down a list of medications for my doctor and I to go over and try out. The Nefiracetam and methylene blue were new though.

Keep those suggestions coming!

[medievil]

Im not sure wheter im so calm because of cholinergic activity, i was like this before i took the nefi and i also kinda seem to like anticholinergics in low doses, atleast selective one's, such as buscopan, strange enough i do feel some central effects, they do cross the bbb in minimum ammounts, ive just tried a ipratropium bromide dose wich you have to inhale, id like to try scopolamine but officially pharmacy's cant sell it anymore just the analogue buscopan but ill find one that does.

Dont understand me wrong once your at a dose with psychoactive effects its pretty horrible, dont like them that much.


St johns worth wich i love is a also a muscarinic antagonist.

[medievil]

Serendipity strikes again: scopolamine as an antidepressant agent in bipolar depressed patients.

Janowsky DS.

Source

University of California, San Diego, 140 Arbor Drive, San Diego, CA 92103, USA. djanowsky@ucsd.edu

Abstract

The adrenergic-cholinergic balance hypothesis of mania and depression suggests that depression may be due to an over-activity or a hypersensitivity to central acetylcholine. From this hypothesis, it is logical that scopolamine, a centrally acting antimuscarinic agent, would be useful as an antidepressant. Authors, working at the Intramural Program at NIMH in Bethesda Maryland have shown that intravenous scopolamine is a rapidly acting, effective antidepressant and have than replicated this finding. They now report that this antidepressant effect occurs in bipolar, as well as unipolar depressed patients. The clinical and theoretical implications of this finding for difficult to treat bipolar depressed patients is considerable, and the finding is in need of independent replication.

I suppose it has a nice calming and stabilising effect in minidoses for me.

[fifth]

Im not sure wheter im so calm because of cholinergic activity, i was like this before i took the nefi and i also kinda seem to like anticholinergics in low doses, atleast selective one's, such as buscopan, strange enough i do feel some central effects, they do cross the bbb in minimum ammounts, ive just tried a ipratropium bromide dose wich you have to inhale, id like to try scopolamine but officially pharmacy's cant sell it anymore just the analogue buscopan but ill find one that does.

Dont understand me wrong once your at a dose with psychoactive effects its pretty horrible, dont like them that much.


St johns worth wich i love is a also a muscarinic antagonist.

When you say mention "at your dose" what medication are you referring to?

When you find a source for scopolamine would you give me a holler? The article you posted has me intrigued as to what it would do and if it's effective at all.

[medievil]

Dont know? before i took buscopan after metoclopramide made my muscles freeze and move me like a retarded clown, then i remembered the calming effect, with buscopan allways took around 4 caps, usually 4 times the normal dose as they dont cross the bbb, now im trying the ipratropium bromide spray, im sure my other supplements abolish the negative cognitive effects (wich they do in rodents) and i keep the benefits. Gonna try another spray now.

[protoject]

Consider oxcarbazepine. I found lithium was great in the beginning but the efficiacy ran out, i had to take more and there were more side effects. There is potential for kidney and thyroid damage. Lamictal just feaks me out because of the rash thing, and insomnia which is really a huge contributing factor to bipolar. I will concur with Jadamgo or whoever said try lithium orotate. I tried lithium orotate/ aspartate for a while and I found it was quite effective but didn't produce the same toxic side effects as the huge doses of lithium carbonate. But again it does need to be dosed higher, and might not be cost effective, so you may wish to seek a bulk source.

In any case I think oxcarbazepine is good to take at night time because it helped me calm down and sleep and there'd be a mood stabilizing effect into the next day. Also found it to have less side effects than the other stuff at the 600mg dosage range which i made my max dosage. I think the key to these medications may lay in dosage amount, timing , and how often it is taken.

YOu might want a second opinion on this but i think trazadone is a better choice than seroquel for sleeping. It improves sleep architecture and doesn't come with some possible damaging long-term side effects that seroquel does. Then again it depends on dose and how you react to the medication.

Gabapentin and pregabalin also improve sleep architecture.

Personally I find the better I sleep the more stable I am, and I think trazadone and gabapentin are 2 important keys that I've been missing for a while for sleep, but also I found oxcarbazepine to be quite relaxing. There have been a few times where I was not able to sleep or was having some kind of anxiety attack and it calmed me down and allowed me to sleep while having an anti-anxiety/ / anti-depessive/ anti-manic effect the following day of the dose.

I am not a doctor and all advice in this post should not be construed as medical advice but simply an anecdotal experience and speculative opinion

Edited by protoject, 09 February 2013 - 12:37 AM.

[stablemind]

I've found this website to be of great use: http://www.psycheduc...stabilizers.htm

You should check out all your options before going on any new meds. You need to be checking your Lithium levels if you ever decide to go on Lithium but it's one of the most researched drugs for bipolar out there. The ones that have experienced side effects usually are taking a dose upwards of 1200 mg +. If you are able to tolerate this medication at low doses without any side effects, I think it's one of the best drugs out there. There are countless research papers backing up its effects on neurogenesis of the hippocampal region, and it's dirt cheap. Trazodone is an antidepressant isn't it? It looks pretty interesting and I would like to see more studies of this drug being compared with other drugs for BP.

[fifth]

Dont know? before i took buscopan after metoclopramide made my muscles freeze and move me like a retarded clown, then i remembered the calming effect, with buscopan allways took around 4 caps, usually 4 times the normal dose as they dont cross the bbb, now im trying the ipratropium bromide spray, im sure my other supplements abolish the negative cognitive effects (wich they do in rodents) and i keep the benefits. Gonna try another spray now.

How come your trying metoclopramide for biplar? It's not used as a bipolar medications that I know of? Buscopon is classified as antispasmtic. Why would you be taking that? Are you trying to counter muscle tightness caused by medications?

Consider oxcarbazepine. I found lithium was great in the beginning but the efficiacy ran out, i had to take more and there were more side effects. There is potential for kidney and thyroid damage. Lamictal just feaks me out because of the rash thing, and insomnia which is really a huge contributing factor to bipolar. I will concur with Jadamgo or whoever said try lithium orotate. I tried lithium orotate/ aspartate for a while and I found it was quite effective but didn't produce the same toxic side effects as the huge doses of lithium carbonate. But again it does need to be dosed higher, and might not be cost effective, so you may wish to seek a bulk source.

In any case I think oxcarbazepine is good to take at night time because it helped me calm down and sleep and there'd be a mood stabilizing effect into the next day. Also found it to have less side effects than the other stuff at the 600mg dosage range which i made my max dosage. I think the key to these medications may lay in dosage amount, timing , and how often it is taken.

YOu might want a second opinion on this but i think trazadone is a better choice than seroquel for sleeping. It improves sleep architecture and doesn't come with some possible damaging long-term side effects that seroquel does. Then again it depends on dose and how you react to the medication.

Gabapentin and pregabalin also improve sleep architecture.

Personally I find the better I sleep the more stable I am, and I think trazadone and gabapentin are 2 important keys that I've been missing for a while for sleep, but also I found oxcarbazepine to be quite relaxing. There have been a few times where I was not able to sleep or was having some kind of anxiety attack and it calmed me down and allowed me to sleep while having an anti-anxiety/ / anti-depessive/ anti-manic effect the following day of the dose.

I am not a doctor and all advice in this post should not be construed as medical advice but simply an anecdotal experience and speculative opinion

Was on oxcarbazepine while on gabapentin and it was alright but didn't like it. I do have a tendency to dislike a lot of medications. Been on at least the top 30 or so over my lifetime. My body just doesn't react the same as others, or I don't have a high tolerance in terms of side effects, which is probably true. I know I know I'm not going to find that perfect medication but it can't hurt to try. Right?
Seroquel was a horrible medication. Not even sleep on it. More like a drunken escapade 24/7. Tried trazodone but after the first night it lost it's affects dramatically. The 1st night I'd sleep well 6-7 hours, second night 3-4. Currently taking Lunesta which gives me a good 4-5 hours sleep. It works consistently which is what I'm looking for. Heard horror stories about people doing things while on it and not remembering them but I lock my door at night plus I'm in a pretty safe environment right now so not to worried about it. It'll probably happen but until it does Lunesta is my drug.

I've found this website to be of great use: http://www.psycheduc...stabilizers.htm

You should check out all your options before going on any new meds. You need to be checking your Lithium levels if you ever decide to go on Lithium but it's one of the most researched drugs for bipolar out there. The ones that have experienced side effects usually are taking a dose upwards of 1200 mg +. If you are able to tolerate this medication at low doses without any side effects, I think it's one of the best drugs out there. There are countless research papers backing up its effects on neurogenesis of the hippocampal region, and it's dirt cheap. Trazodone is an antidepressant isn't it? It looks pretty interesting and I would like to see more studies of this drug being compared with other drugs for BP.

Agreed. Lithium=great medication. Those high doses of carbonate cause extreme damage. Read somewhere saying lithium orate doesn't cause as many side effects as it's counterpart asperate. One of the reasons orate is the one I'd like to try. Kinda funny because I went to this doctor who was supposedly well regarding his knowledge of drugs and after telling him about lithium orate he immediately told me there is no such thing. I came back with you know lithium is a natural substance, right? He did but didn't know anything other then "his" drugs. Pushed Seroquel and trazodone on me pretty hard. Refused Seroquel but tried the trazodone, didn't like it.

Trazodone is around 20-25 years old and was originally used as an anti depressant but soon after they started administering it they discovered patients would sleep better on it. Ever since then doctors prescribe it off-label? for sleep.

[protoject]

Was on oxcarbazepine while on gabapentin and it was alright but didn't like it. I do have a tendency to dislike a lot of medications. Been on at least the top 30 or so over my lifetime. My body just doesn't react the same as others, or I don't have a high tolerance in terms of side effects, which is probably true. I know I know I'm not going to find that perfect medication but it can't hurt to try. Right?
Seroquel was a horrible medication. Not even sleep on it. More like a drunken escapade 24/7. Tried trazodone but after the first night it lost it's affects dramatically. The 1st night I'd sleep well 6-7 hours, second night 3-4. Currently taking Lunesta which gives me a good 4-5 hours sleep. It works consistently which is what I'm looking for. Heard horror stories about people doing things while on it and not remembering them but I lock my door at night plus I'm in a pretty safe environment right now so not to worried about it. It'll probably happen but until it does Lunesta is my drug.

I've found this website to be of great use: http://www.psycheduc...stabilizers.htm

You should check out all your options before going on any new meds. You need to be checking your Lithium levels if you ever decide to go on Lithium but it's one of the most researched drugs for bipolar out there. The ones that have experienced side effects usually are taking a dose upwards of 1200 mg +. If you are able to tolerate this medication at low doses without any side effects, I think it's one of the best drugs out there. There are countless research papers backing up its effects on neurogenesis of the hippocampal region, and it's dirt cheap. Trazodone is an antidepressant isn't it? It looks pretty interesting and I would like to see more studies of this drug being compared with other drugs for BP.

Agreed. Lithium=great medication. Those high doses of carbonate cause extreme damage. Read somewhere saying lithium orate doesn't cause as many side effects as it's counterpart asperate. One of the reasons orate is the one I'd like to try. Kinda funny because I went to this doctor who was supposedly well regarding his knowledge of drugs and after telling him about lithium orate he immediately told me there is no such thing. I came back with you know lithium is a natural substance, right? He did but didn't know anything other then "his" drugs. Pushed Seroquel and trazodone on me pretty hard. Refused Seroquel but tried the trazodone, didn't like it.

Trazodone is around 20-25 years old and was originally used as an anti depressant but soon after they started administering it they discovered patients would sleep better on it. Ever since then doctors prescribe it off-label? for sleep.

What dosage of trazadone were you using? I found the low 25mg to be a pathetic dose and 50 or 100 mg is better. I'm wondering if I should use this once every few days or something. I'm sad to hear that everything stops working for you because I find this to be the case for myself as well.. EVERYTHING either doesnt work or stops working or isn't worth the tradeoff.

Anyway back to the bipolar issue.. Have you tried lithium before? Keeping the levels constant seems to be the best bet and avoiding tolerance as well. I've never tried lithium XR but expect it might be a better choice.

If you're wanting the orotate I'll restate that it would probably be wise to grab it in bulk. I've bought bottles before and practically had to take like a third of the entire bottle for each dose. Well it was something like 12 pills. I am wondering if there is really difference between orotate and other forms. Supposedly there's no difference in pharmacokinetics. I cant comment on the difference in effect between carbonate and orotate as I have never seen much evidence seperating their actions. I think it's pretty much the same thing just different forms.

Hence I would recommend looking into lithium XR for more stable blood levels as this is where the therepeutic effects will occur.

[medievil]

I dont have bipolar, i tried metoclopramide added to my stims as its a D2 antagonist (antipsychotic) and 5HT3 anta/5HT4 agonist with possibly interesting effects however it induced extrapyramal side effects wich need to be treated with muscarinic agonist.

Also with regards to buscopan, if you want to try scopolamine try it in a high dose, its a close analogue but crosses the bbb hardly so needs to be dosed high.

[medievil]

Im very interested in lithium, will give it a try soon i could use a mood stabiliser at times to calm me down, altough on my current stack im paradoxally calm allready.

[fifth]

Was on oxcarbazepine while on gabapentin and it was alright but didn't like it. I do have a tendency to dislike a lot of medications. Been on at least the top 30 or so over my lifetime. My body just doesn't react the same as others, or I don't have a high tolerance in terms of side effects, which is probably true. I know I know I'm not going to find that perfect medication but it can't hurt to try. Right?
Seroquel was a horrible medication. Not even sleep on it. More like a drunken escapade 24/7. Tried trazodone but after the first night it lost it's affects dramatically. The 1st night I'd sleep well 6-7 hours, second night 3-4. Currently taking Lunesta which gives me a good 4-5 hours sleep. It works consistently which is what I'm looking for. Heard horror stories about people doing things while on it and not remembering them but I lock my door at night plus I'm in a pretty safe environment right now so not to worried about it. It'll probably happen but until it does Lunesta is my drug.

I've found this website to be of great use: http://www.psycheduc...stabilizers.htm

You should check out all your options before going on any new meds. You need to be checking your Lithium levels if you ever decide to go on Lithium but it's one of the most researched drugs for bipolar out there. The ones that have experienced side effects usually are taking a dose upwards of 1200 mg +. If you are able to tolerate this medication at low doses without any side effects, I think it's one of the best drugs out there. There are countless research papers backing up its effects on neurogenesis of the hippocampal region, and it's dirt cheap. Trazodone is an antidepressant isn't it? It looks pretty interesting and I would like to see more studies of this drug being compared with other drugs for BP.

Agreed. Lithium=great medication. Those high doses of carbonate cause extreme damage. Read somewhere saying lithium orate doesn't cause as many side effects as it's counterpart asperate. One of the reasons orate is the one I'd like to try. Kinda funny because I went to this doctor who was supposedly well regarding his knowledge of drugs and after telling him about lithium orate he immediately told me there is no such thing. I came back with you know lithium is a natural substance, right? He did but didn't know anything other then "his" drugs. Pushed Seroquel and trazodone on me pretty hard. Refused Seroquel but tried the trazodone, didn't like it.

Trazodone is around 20-25 years old and was originally used as an anti depressant but soon after they started administering it they discovered patients would sleep better on it. Ever since then doctors prescribe it off-label? for sleep.

What dosage of trazadone were you using? I found the low 25mg to be a pathetic dose and 50 or 100 mg is better. I'm wondering if I should use this once every few days or something. I'm sad to hear that everything stops working for you because I find this to be the case for myself as well.. EVERYTHING either doesnt work or stops working or isn't worth the tradeoff.

Anyway back to the bipolar issue.. Have you tried lithium before? Keeping the levels constant seems to be the best bet and avoiding tolerance as well. I've never tried lithium XR but expect it might be a better choice.

If you're wanting the orotate I'll restate that it would probably be wise to grab it in bulk. I've bought bottles before and practically had to take like a third of the entire bottle for each dose. Well it was something like 12 pills. I am wondering if there is really difference between orotate and other forms. Supposedly there's no difference in pharmacokinetics. I cant comment on the difference in effect between carbonate and orotate as I have never seen much evidence seperating their actions. I think it's pretty much the same thing just different forms.

Hence I would recommend looking into lithium XR for more stable blood levels as this is where the therepeutic effects will occur.

I was given the choice of 100mg or 200mg at night. Tried the 100mg didn't do jack, maybe an hour and a half. 200mg knocked me out for good the first night but after that no good. I'ts been well studied seroquel and trazodone both create more natural sleep then other sleeping medications. I can attest to this. Although I do get that groggy feeling on both medications. In reality no medication will create good deep REM sleep. Which is what a human being needs to solidify the day's contents as well as heal the body and mind.

In regards to lithium orate vs lithium carbonate I found http://www.dreddycli...hp?f=114&t=6347 If you scroll down one of posters replied with specific information regarding lithium and the different kinds as well as different substances that contain lithium. It's a very intriguing conversation. Note that it does not contain articles of reference nor does it contain personal testimony's.

I dont have bipolar, i tried metoclopramide added to my stims as its a D2 antagonist (antipsychotic) and 5HT3 anta/5HT4 agonist with possibly interesting effects however it induced extrapyramal side effects wich need to be treated with muscarinic agonist.

Also with regards to buscopan, if you want to try scopolamine try it in a high dose, its a close analogue but crosses the bbb hardly so needs to be dosed high.

Dude if only I knew half of what your talking about I'd be thrilled. Can you explain or link to articles about these subtances? As well as provide your current stack? Interested to see what components your combining to get this calming affect.