33 replies to this topic

[civilizedsavage]

Well, its been a while since I've been lurking these forums, and I figured why not join in on the fun. Better now than never right? It feels great to be part of such an intellectual group individuals, and I hope to make many lasting connections here.

Anyways, its been approximately 8 days since I've started Selegiline. I was taking 5 mg 2x daily, once after breakfast and once after lunch. The first 3 days I felt like crap because I cut myself clean from stimulants, and had to just grit my teeth through it all by staying in bed to recover. Days 4-6 was when I started noticing the "Selegiline Energy" that many users have reported in their journals/logs. From my observations, its a weird kind of energy, one that continuously fluctuates throughout the day in an unpredictable manner. Carbs make me tired, and any kind of high-protein meal or snack will put me into high functioning mode, which is a first for me since I was so used to having no appetite on dexedrine. On days 7 and 8, I noticed the energy was increasing, and my mental capacity also normalizing to the point where I can actually bring myself to do house chores, reconcile my budget, and finish some basic agenda items, not to mention wake up without feeling tired. Oddly enough, I can identify with one forum member's feelings, as these escalating benefits seem to mirror a hypomanic state for me. One noted side effect is that I constantly have a rapid heart rate. It may be too early to say, but so far for ADHD I don't believe its as effective as stimulant treatment, though there are some other added benefits. I know I can't hyperfocus and multi-task as efficiently as I did when I was on dexedrine, but man do I feel a lot more human now. I can socialize just a little better now, its not really a dramatic change, but I really like how my mind doesn't feel so tense whenever someone initiates conversation with me.

I've stopped taking it for the past 3 days because I have to take a drug test soon, and I do not want to raise any false positives for meth. Ever since I stopped, I've noticed some strange effects. Even though I stopped taking selegiline, I can still feel the MAO-B inhibition effects, which is understandable since it takes nearly 2 weeks for the enzyme activity to be restored. However, its as if I'm still taking selegiline, and my symptoms are improving day by day, which is awesome for me. Anyhow, after I take the drug test on Monday, I wil resume my regimen again, and update the journal as I go along.

[civilizedsavage]

Day 12 (still abstaining from selegiline): Today, I felt much more tired than usual. I could barely do anything, just spent the saturday watching cinema. However, I decided to get off my lazy ass and start exercising for once. I ran for about 3.5 miles, which isn't all too bad for a first run. Another weird thing I noticed on selegiline is that the endorphin rush seems to come on harder, and lasts longer after exercising. Even as I'm typing this I feel really lightheaded and spun out. It feels good though, and I'm going to make the commitment to run every other day for at least half an hour. Anyways, I can't wait until Monday to start Selegiline again, because this fatigue is really starting to bother me.

[xEva]

Thanks for your report, but how old are you? "5 mg 2x daily" sounds much to me. Years ago I used to take 5mg on Wednesdays and it felt enough.

[chung_pao]

Have you considered lowering your dose and combining it with something else?
It's primarily a MAO-B inhibitor, and too much of a good thing could turn bad. I don't know anyone on this forum taking 10 mg daily.

Have you taken any other precautions to cope with the high degree of b-inhibition? Like diet (avoiding tyramine; cheese, fish, wine, fruit)?
I'm very curious since I'm awaiting my shipment of selegiline

Also, have you tried eating cocoa powder on it? Without the MAO-B, I think the effects of phenylethylamine would be pretty noticeable.

Btw, did you cut out all stimulants? That's hard work, I've tried many times and always failed; I'm a real tea addict.

Keep us posted about the drug test lol

Edited by chung_pao, 09 February 2013 - 11:16 PM.

[leftside]

I started at 5mg/day and then slowly tapered down to 1mg/day. I'm now taking 4-5mg/week. I'm taking it purely for experimentation purposes as a hopeful "life enhancer" drug. I found 5mg/day to be too much. I have a thread in the "nootropic stacks" section.

[civilizedsavage]

I'm mainly interested in the nootropic effects of the Selegiline, not realy the life extension side of it. That's where exercise and other supplements come in.
I realize that the 10mg is a bit on the high side, but the side effects are something I can bear with, since they're not nearly as bad as when I experienced coming down off of dexedrine.

Chungpao, I thought the dietary restrictions should be taken into consideration if I'm taking doses higher than 10mg, where MAO-A inhibition would kick in? As for the PEA combo, I'd like to try a low dose at least once, but never habitually because I've heard it can get quite toxic if used too often. I still do drink tea, I followed devinthayers advice, and ordered a big box of highly caffeinated black tea. I feel like caffeine is something I'll never be able to kick, just because its so harmless compared to other stims. I always remember to stay hydrated, and never drink past a certain time, and in doing so I have not had any bad run ins with insomnia lately.

On a side note, I was considering whether or not to ask the doc about modafinil, since the selegiline doesn't seem to help much with my ADHD. I just hope it doesn't cause any bouts of insomnia, I can barely get a good nights sleep on selegiline alone. Perhaps when I've reached homeostasis I'll start experimentation. If your curious about what synergizes with selegiline, check out the "Selegiline for ADHD" thread. Anyways, thanks for the replies, I'll keep you guys posted.

[jadamgo]

You're exposing yourself to over 9mg of amphetamines per day by swallowing 10mg of selegiline every day.

I suggest that you switch to a single 2.5mg sublingual dose (let the tablet dissolve under your tongue) every day, or if that turns out to be too much, 2.5mg every other day.

[chung_pao]

You're exposing yourself to over 9mg of amphetamines per day by swallowing 10mg of selegiline every day.

I suggest that you switch to a single 2.5mg sublingual dose (let the tablet dissolve under your tongue) every day, or if that turns out to be too much, 2.5mg every other day.

Does sublingual administration mean less/no amphetamine derivates?

[jadamgo]

You're exposing yourself to over 9mg of amphetamines per day by swallowing 10mg of selegiline every day.

I suggest that you switch to a single 2.5mg sublingual dose (let the tablet dissolve under your tongue) every day, or if that turns out to be too much, 2.5mg every other day.

Does sublingual administration mean less/no amphetamine derivates?

Yes, it means less amphetamine. When people take selegiline as the EMSAM patch, they have barely any amphetamine metabolites in their bodies. But when people swallow selegiline tablets, most of it is converted into amphetamine and only very little of it remains as selegiline in the body.

Theoretically, sublingual absorption is the same as dermal (skin) absorption. In real life, you're going to swallow some of the selegiline, and your liver will convert it to amphetamines. But you won't swallow all of it; some will be absorbed directly into the bloodstream from the blood vessels in the mouth's lining. That selegiline will not be turned into amphetamine, just like with EMSAM. Also, the sublingual doses are smaller so there's less of it to be metabolized.

[sjroden]

You're exposing yourself to over 9mg of amphetamines per day by swallowing 10mg of selegiline every day.

I suggest that you switch to a single 2.5mg sublingual dose (let the tablet dissolve under your tongue) every day, or if that turns out to be too much, 2.5mg every other day.

Im not sure where you got that info about 9mg of amphetamines from 10 selegiline Jadamgo. But I would have to say you are very wrong there. I was just reading several studies about Selegiline and they mentioned only VERY low amounts of amphet metabolites. So low that I would not even worry about a drug test. ( However its never bad to be safe) Secondly, having taken plenty of amphetamines I would think our thread author would now the effect/feeling of getting 9mg of them in his system.

[jadamgo]

You're exposing yourself to over 9mg of amphetamines per day by swallowing 10mg of selegiline every day.

I suggest that you switch to a single 2.5mg sublingual dose (let the tablet dissolve under your tongue) every day, or if that turns out to be too much, 2.5mg every other day.

Im not sure where you got that info about 9mg of amphetamines from 10 selegiline Jadamgo. But I would have to say you are very wrong there. I was just reading several studies about Selegiline and they mentioned only VERY low amounts of amphet metabolites. So low that I would not even worry about a drug test. ( However its never bad to be safe) Secondly, having taken plenty of amphetamines I would think our thread author would now the effect/feeling of getting 9mg of them in his system.

http://packageinsert...pi/pi_emsam.pdf
Figure 2, on the first page, shows Area Under the Curve (AUC) data for 10mg oral selegiline versus 6mg dermal selegiline. AUC data represents total exposure to a drug by integrating serum concentration over time from administration to elimination.

Notice how the oral selegiline dose of 10mg results in very low exposure to selegiline: 4.5 ng*hr/mL. By contrast, dermal administration of approximately half that dose results in AUC ten times higher, 46.2 ng*hr/mL.

Notice also how dermal absorption results in significantly lower exposure to l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine relative to the higher oral dose.

My numbers are based off extrapolating sublingual pharmacokinetics from the EMSAM data, because both will achieve the same overall effect of bypassing the first-pass hepatic metabolism which converts selegiline into its amphetamine derivatives. Of course, some part of a sublingual dose will be swallowed and subjected to first-pass metabolism, but it will be significantly less than with typical oral administration.

[civilizedsavage]

Well guys, I just finished my 50th dose of selegiline, and here is what i've observed. The effects are so subtle and builds up so slowly over time that you barely perceive any noticeable changes taking hold over your life while taking selegiline. Over the past few weeks, I feel it has helped me socially while at work as I've noticed that I no longer feel as uncomfortable as I used to. I still feel a bit awkward at times when i'm sitting with a big group of people, but it usually subsides when I find myself joining in on the conversation when I normally would just sit there with my lips locked. There is also a slight increase in memory, and a moderate increase in memory. While I was undergoing some rigorous training at work, it seemed like I wasn't learning anything but I was wrong. I was actually automatically processing everything, and surprisingly retrieving those memories later contributing to more accurate work on my part, which is good. I am also noticeably more happy, laugh more, and have a sense of humor. It is a moderate antidepressant for me, and I really really appreciate what its done for me. HOWEVER, for those of you with ADHD, I want to warn you that pursuing selegiline alone as a standalone treatment will likely dissapoint you in the end. I still get brain fog, and can't focus as much as I used to when I was on stimulants. I can do procedural tasks and focus quite well, but I still can't pick up my pen and start planning my day on the weekends just because I still feel that overwhelming feeling of mental fatigue. It just feels like my mind is unwilling to focus in on important things I used to do, and therefore I frequently rely on caffeine to help me through the day. Even then, I can only knock out the most important tasks like paying my bills and cleaning my house, but never anything more, and definitely no complex planning. For now I will continue treatment, because it seems to be doing a lot for my well being, but at the same time I will also either look for synergisers or alternative routes of treatment.

Edited by civilizedsavage, 11 March 2013 - 10:21 PM.

[YOLF]

Is there somewhere to buy the patch without a perscription? I like the idea of what Selegine does, but I'd like to know that whatever I'm taking is working. How would I know the benefits I was experiencing wasn't from the amphetamine metabolites?

[jadamgo]

Well guys, I just finished my 50th dose of selegiline, and here is what i've observed. The effects are so subtle and builds up so slowly over time that you barely perceive any noticeable changes taking hold over your life while taking selegiline. Over the past few weeks, I feel it has helped me socially while at work as I've noticed that I no longer feel as uncomfortable as I used to. I still feel a bit awkward at times when i'm sitting with a big group of people, but it usually subsides when I find myself joining in on the conversation when I normally would just sit there with my lips locked. There is also a slight increase in memory, and a moderate increase in memory. While I was undergoing some rigorous training at work, it seemed like I wasn't learning anything but I was wrong. I was actually automatically processing everything, and surprisingly retrieving those memories later contributing to more accurate work on my part, which is good. I am also noticeably more happy, laugh more, and have a sense of humor. It is a moderate antidepressant for me, and I really really appreciate what its done for me. HOWEVER, for those of you with ADHD, I want to warn you that pursuing selegiline alone as a standalone treatment will likely dissapoint you in the end. I still get brain fog, and can't focus as much as I used to when I was on stimulants. I can do procedural tasks and focus quite well, but I still can't pick up my pen and start planning my day on the weekends just because I still feel that overwhelming feeling of mental fatigue. It just feels like my mind is unwilling to focus in on important things I used to do, and therefore I frequently rely on caffeine to help me through the day. Even then, I can only knock out the most important tasks like paying my bills and cleaning my house, but never anything more, and definitely no complex planning. For now I will continue treatment, because it seems to be doing a lot for my well being, but at the same time I will also either look for synergisers or alternative routes of treatment.

Have you tried the stimulating racetams, or the CILTEP stack, or sulbutiamine?

Is there somewhere to buy the patch without a perscription? I like the idea of what Selegine does, but I'd like to know that whatever I'm taking is working. How would I know the benefits I was experiencing wasn't from the amphetamine metabolites?

Unfortunately, you'll absolutely have to get a prescription to get that patch. The only way to get selegiline without a prescription is to buy it from an overseas pharmacy.

[YOLF]

I've noticed that it is a smoking cessation tool. I quit smoking a few months ago and still have cravings, do you think that would qualify for a prescription?

[tao95]

Try selegiline, DMAE and choline source. They are good aids when giving up smoking.

[YOLF]

I have DMAE, it gives me some pretty bad headaches. I can't imagine it's actually good for us. I wouldn't be surprised if it was toxic in some way. Maybe it's benefits are the same as exercise and the repair vectors exceed the performance inhibition?

[jadamgo]

You could try Alpha-GPC or CDP-choline instead. Don't try centrophenoxine, since DMAE is one of its metabolites.

All they're going to give you for smoking cessation is bupropion or varenicline. Remember that most non-brain-specialist doctors are terrified of MAOIs.

[civilizedsavage]

Jadamgo, yes, I am currently taking aniracetam and alpha GPC (another drug that seems to be working behind the scenes). I've tried sulbutiamine, but its just not good long term, and oddly enough, it causes me to go into severe episodes of depression sometimes (this happens on occasion with certain supplements my body decides to reject). I have done countless hours of research to figure out whether or not the addition of aniracetam, alpha gpc, and fish oil would interact with my current Selegiline regimen. Unfortunately I couldn't come across any useful info, so i'll throw in my 2 cents regarding my experimentation with both supplements. Mind you, I take my selegiline first thing in the morning after breakfast, then 2 hours later I down a 750 mg aniracetam capsule and 450 mg pure Alpha GPC with a tall glass of full fat milk. I have been taking aniracetam twice a day like this for the last 3 weeks, despite my fear that selegiline's ability to create an equilibrium of neurotransmitters would be affected somehow. It turns out the combo is quite effective, as selegiline gives me the slight boost of energy, optimism, and cognition, while aniracetam seems to eliminate just around 75% of my anxiety and social awkwardness. However, I recommend taking aniracetam no more than 3-4 days in a row, then engaging in at least 2 days of rest, as I found the choline to cause depression and exaggerated emotionality at times. All in all, I really really love this combo. Even though my girlfriend of 1.5 years broke up with me 3 weeks ago, this regiment has helped me to keep my chin up, not dwell on the past, and completely bounce back with a calm and composed resilience. Its a bit upsetting though that once you stop taking selegiline, you have to wait for another 3-4 weeks for it to build up in your system again. I'm here to remind you guys that you must be patient with the supplement, as I recall I was really frustrated in the beginning because the effects were so subtle and slow. Regardless, I think i'm going to have to drop the selegiline and move onto modafinil for a month. It just doesn't push me hard enough at such an important time in my life (recent graduate with a career on the line). Its great though if your in a phase where you want to lay low for a while and don't have much responsibilities outside of the usual chores and run ins thath people normally uphold.

[civilizedsavage]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I've also started biking 10 miles a day for 4 days out of the week. Amazing results in terms of energy levels, I'm assuming its from all the neurotransmitters and endorphins that are being produced and being prevented from breaking down. I also feel an increased libido level, but I don't feel that annoying impulsive urge to act on it at times. Building up my man juices I believe will help me to go out and meet women, as well as my energy levels in general. You all should try it. Who do you think women will appreciate more? A) Guys who spend their time in the dark, jacking off to endless streams of porn, finish after about an hour, take a nap, finally make it out in the sunlight (or not) and can’t even look them in the eye or B) Guys who spend their time wisely, at the gym, at work, in his study? The answer is clear as far as I'm concerned.

Let the 100 days of abstaining begin.

Also I'm going to write in my journal tonight regarding my accomplishments this last few years. I always feel that I create these neverending lists of goals, agendas, and initiatives, only to cross out a few at a time every month and feeling a sense of dissapointment afterwards. Well I thought about it today and I realize I've just been taking it slow, and in actuality, I've done much much more than the average lazy twenty something year old would be doing right out of college, not to mention all of the important life skills and habits i've picked up along the way. I wish you guys the same success, never stop improving.

[civilizedsavage]

One last note. For smoking cessation, just do it cold turkey and never touch it again. I know its easier said than done, but my girlfriend made me promise to stop once and for all, and I would cheat here and there because I couldn't hold my shit together. Luckily I was on a 3 week vacation at the time so I had no other responsibilities to tend to, and one day decided to be true to myself and throw out my pack of cigarettes. I do not regret my decision to this day, my health has vastly improved, and I am no longer spending that chunk of change on packs of cigarettes every week. One thing is for sure, once you quit, you must NEVER touch cigarettes again. You eventually get to a point, after some months of resistance, where you find it easier to let your mind let go of those tempting thoughts. So good luck to you smokers out there, don't waste money on a patch!!! (but if you absolutely have to go for it)

[civilizedsavage]

I am now convinced that PEA + Selegiline sucks donkey nuts. I wasted 40 bucks for a combo that did nothing for me, even at escalating doses. If anything, it made me more tired and agitated. To be honest, I felt more of a sustained effect from DLPA, but even that wasn't really worth pursuing long term. My patience is running thin, and I may very well have to drop selegiline for just a little while to get my affairs in order. I seriously appreciate what its done for me in terms of my ability to forget the negative things in my life and actually live a little, but it is seriously lacking in the motivation department. Perhaps this is just my case, so please don't be influenced by my criticisms. Anyways, I am thinking about going back to stim treatment, hopefully not for too long though.

[tao95]

Biking is not good for balls and libido.

[civilizedsavage]

I always forget how awesome aniracetam is. Maybe its because it usually loses effect for me after about 2-3 days of consecutive dosing. Because of this, I usually take 1-2 days off of ani just to give my brain time to readjust. Ironically enough, I feel very good on the days I am not on aniracetam. Perhaps this is just the residual effects? Anyhow I just took 750mg with a glass of milk about 2 hours ago. I was bored after lunch so I decided to take my dog out for a walk in the backyard. Temperatures were around 60-70 F, and very light drizzle of rain outside. It made everything looked beautiful once more. The colors and detail were vibrant, though I wish the effects were more pronounced and vivid, but I guess you can't ask for too much from the keeper when he allows you to play with the mind. What do you guys think of a modafinil and aniracetam stack? I just need some balance between being happy with my life and being productive! Help me out guys!

Very funny Tao. FYI I invested some money into an ass cushion to keep my manhood nice and comfy on those long rides. Your legs are the largest muscles in your body, releases a ton of testosterone, good for the libido~

[civilizedsavage]

Today was a strange day. As suspected, I had been taking too small of a dose of PEA to even feel anything at all. For some reason, even at 5mg of selegiline daily, my body just does not respond to Selegiline at the recommended therapeutic dose of 60mg for depression. I tried doing right around 200 mg and measured my blood pressure about 30 min into it, and it read 135/85 which is slightly above optimal. I spaced 3 doses out today, each at 200-250mg, and found that the duration generally lasts for 1-2 hours at most. After that I get extremely tired and slightly dysphoric, but I still wait until I can properly redose. I know I'm playing with fire here, so I'm looking to do this maybe 2-3 times out of the week at most. I guess I was wrong about the PEA, but still I must remain cautious and be prepared to take the necessary actions if I should encounter a reaction at some point. Keep in mind I am taking nothing else but this combo with multivitamins fish oil and some aniracetam. I would not recommend anyone try my dose, but rather have a "test" day where you can titrate your doses up over a few hours to see whats best for you.

[chris106]

Hey civilizedsavage,

I would love to hear how your experiences have been since your last post, since I'm thinking about purchasing Selegiline, too.

How did the higher doses turn out for you? Did you find an alternative that works better for you?

Sorry for just asking questions... :3

[civilizedsavage]

Hey chris, no worries I'd be glad to answer your questions.

So here's an update for the record. For some reason, my body has been able to tolerate PEA extremely well. It may have something to do with my biochemistry, since people with ADHD tend to have abnormally low levels of PEA. I have experienced probably the tiniest bit of tolerance, but this problem became easily resolved after taking a 3 day break from it every week. I take right around 8-10 doses, each 225mg, evenly spaced out every 1.5 hours. The first dose is euphoric, while subsequent doses gives me a mental edge and drive throughout the day. Things become extremely difficult for me when I'm crashing every so often, which makes the day just a tiny bit less productive. I prefer that rather than having insomnia with other stimulant meds. Keep in mind, I was VERY careful when I experimented with dosages, titrating up in tiny increments and logging my experiences. I also kept track of my heart rate and blood pressure. Everyone's body is different, therefore, exercise extreme caution when pursuing this stack; after all, your life is on the line. I am fortunate enough to have yet another option to add to my ADHD management plan, but will admit the constant redosing is a pain in the ass. On the positive side, while other dopaminergic pharmaceuticals always made me extremely horny, PEA only made me slightly horny, which made it easier for me to stay focused on my daily agenda. Lastly, I want to note that I am extremely active (I bike right around 10 miles a day, intense strength training 4 days of the week, stretch daily, eat 2400 calories a day lean protein and light carbs). This may also be a factor as to why I can tolerate PEA's peripheral effects a lot better, so don't be impatient and get in shape first before you try this stack. Understand that results are only achieved through commitment, and that there is always a way if there is a will. Prepare for tomorrow today, so that you'll have more time to do the things you've always aspired to do.

Again, extremely happy with the results, couldn't have asked for better. I will continue to update as long as people are still somewhat interested.

Edited by civilizedsavage, 02 May 2013 - 08:59 PM.

[chris106]

First of all, thanks for your answer! But I'm a bit confused here -

Today was a strange day. As suspected, I had been taking too small of a dose of PEA to even feel anything at all. For some reason, even at 5mg of selegiline daily, my body just does not respond to Selegiline at the recommended therapeutic dose of 60mg for depression.

I guess you meant that at 5mg Selegeline you don't respond to PEA at the recommended dose?

So are you still taking 5mg Selegeline each morning prior of all the PEA you are taking? Your results sound great, however - glad you found something that works for you and is manageable, I know what kind of pain in the ass it is to fight ADD... :(

[**DEACTIVATED**]

For some reason, my body has been able to tolerate PEA extremely well.

Indeed.

I take right around 8-10 doses, each 225mg, evenly spaced out every 1.5 hours.

Because that is ridiculous.

[civilizedsavage]

My tolerance rapidly increased this week. It seems that I should be cycling to a different regimen after 4 weeks on the current one. I also think I should have been taking high quality magnesium and fish oil to help deter the tolerance. Next week I will be getting a script for Modafinil, so I will give that a try for a couple of weeks and switch back onto the Selegiline+PEA combo again. It has been a great journey up until now, it was fun while it lasted. I rebuilt my social life, and most of all, learned the importance of commitment in bite sized portions. No ill health effects thus far, just a bit melancholy that the fun has to stop. I'll still keep posting though, this is a great community full of enthused individuals who share a common interest for self-improvement, which I admire and respect deeply. Stay tuned kids! We're still in for the ride.