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Sulbutiamine actually for the long term?

sulbutiamine forniphilia sacofricosis symorophilia ederacinism oculolinctus

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#31 Sir Chugalot

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 11:01 AM

Vitamin D is known to enhance l tyrosine conversion to l dopa for instance.
concerning sulbutiamine,
I'm starting to think that maybe it should be cycled during the week like taking it parcingly 2-3 days in a week, because dopamine upregulation means depletion then there should be days where dopamine levels return to baseline so that we can feel the effects.


It's an interesting point.

That would fit in with this answer regarding the long term effects I found on yahoo.

http://answers.yahoo...09071023AAJ699Y


Yes, Arcalion needs to be taken for the period of 2 weeks to 1 month.... generally has a long term effect, which last over the period of at least 6 month after the drug is administrated......
Pull yourself out of asthenia....& Switch On With Arcalion.....
Vaibhav Sharma
Serdia Pharmacuetical

Source(s):

Serdia.com



Unfortunately I can't find the website the answer references, but it's my plan now to go 4 weeks on a small dose (500mg), then take five months off.

#32 renfr

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:58 AM

Almost 2 weeks of sulbutiamine and effects still doesn't wear off, in fact it's just getting better.

Also I ordered a huge batch of 500g bulk powder, enough to last 1 year and half.

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#33 xsiv1

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:20 AM

Almost 2 weeks of sulbutiamine and effects still doesn't wear off, in fact it's just getting better.

Also I ordered a huge batch of 500g bulk powder, enough to last 1 year and half.


Interesting. What are your daily dosage limits again? How much per dose and how often? I've noticed that it does last longer than 3 days, but afterwards it gradually declines in it's pronounced effect. I've always taken it with Krill Oil since it's rapidly absorbed. Interested to see how many others reap benefits from long-term supplementation.

#34 renfr

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:56 AM

Almost 2 weeks of sulbutiamine and effects still doesn't wear off, in fact it's just getting better.

Also I ordered a huge batch of 500g bulk powder, enough to last 1 year and half.


Interesting. What are your daily dosage limits again? How much per dose and how often? I've noticed that it does last longer than 3 days, but afterwards it gradually declines in it's pronounced effect. I've always taken it with Krill Oil since it's rapidly absorbed. Interested to see how many others reap benefits from long-term supplementation.

Currently I'm taking between 600-1400mg with a mean intake of 1000mg.
I usually take all of it at once.
Once my 500g shipment arrives I will stabilize intake to 1000mg a day.
I suggest you take it with food, krill oil is not enough to absorb all of it unless you take at least 12g of it.
I always take it right after a meal.

I always suggest to take it with choline, because according to a study (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4059305) sulbutiamine raises significantly HACU (High affinity choline uptake) meaning that if you don't supplement choline, it will be depleted from your system and cause cognitive deficits, at least that's my experience, if I don't take choline at least 1 time every 2 days I start having headaches and my memory gets poorer.
When I supplement choline my memory recall is excellent and better than choline alone also I experience no headaches.
I suggest taking choline when you least need sulbutiamine effects because choline can numb them a little bit.
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#35 xsiv1

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:05 AM

Almost 2 weeks of sulbutiamine and effects still doesn't wear off, in fact it's just getting better.

Also I ordered a huge batch of 500g bulk powder, enough to last 1 year and half.


Interesting. What are your daily dosage limits again? How much per dose and how often? I've noticed that it does last longer than 3 days, but afterwards it gradually declines in it's pronounced effect. I've always taken it with Krill Oil since it's rapidly absorbed. Interested to see how many others reap benefits from long-term supplementation.

Currently I'm taking between 600-1400mg with a mean intake of 1000mg.
I usually take all of it at once.
Once my 500g shipment arrives I will stabilize intake to 1000mg a day.
I suggest you take it with food, krill oil is not enough to absorb all of it unless you take at least 12g of it.
I always take it right after a meal.

I always suggest to take it with choline, because according to a study (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4059305) sulbutiamine raises significantly HACU (High affinity choline uptake) meaning that if you don't supplement choline, it will be depleted from your system and cause cognitive deficits, at least that's my experience, if I don't take choline at least 1 time every 2 days I start having headaches and my memory gets poorer.
When I supplement choline my memory recall is excellent and better than choline alone also I experience no headaches.
I suggest taking choline when you least need sulbutiamine effects because choline can numb them a little bit.


Thanks for the reply and I get the choline addition from the aforementioned study you posted but one thing remains unclear. How can Krill oil in a 12 gram amount be the applicable dosing protocol. Nearly any light meal you have has far less of the essential fat you'd need to allow Sulbutiamine to work properly. I suppose it also depends on what you eat but if I take it at lunch, that meal in itself contains barely enough carbohydrates and EFA's then is considered to be suitable. Most often, I'll have vegetables and a salad with a small portion of protein (<30grams) and then I'll supplement with an EFA whether it's a standard Omega 3 or Krill Oil which is rapidly absorbed. Do not get that part.

#36 GetOutOfBox

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:09 PM

12 g krill oil is ridiculously high. Krill oil absorbs better than fish oil and has more EPA, and yet people still only use a max of 6 g fish oil on average. Krill oil shouldn't need much, and holy shit is it expensive.

I take two grams fish oil 3x daily with Uridine, which should be enough for a normal diet. At first I did 3 g 3x daily, but cut back after a week, as any deficiency should have been corrected by then.

#37 xsiv1

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 07:41 PM

12 g krill oil is ridiculously high. Krill oil absorbs better than fish oil and has more EPA, and yet people still only use a max of 6 g fish oil on average. Krill oil shouldn't need much, and holy shit is it expensive.

I take two grams fish oil 3x daily with Uridine, which should be enough for a normal diet. At first I did 3 g 3x daily, but cut back after a week, as any deficiency should have been corrected by then.


Exactly what I thought. I take 2 grams of fish oil daily and then at lunch 500mgs of Krill Oil with my sulbutiamine. I'd suspect that to be more than enough. 12grams of Krill Oil just to get full absorption of Sulbutiamine doesn't make sense. Like I said, most small meals don't contain nearly enough EFA's or EPA specifically to justify sulbutiamine absorption yet that's how most people, I'd hazard to say, actually take it...with a small meal and EFA or just an EFA.

#38 renfr

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 05:21 AM

12 g krill oil is ridiculously high. Krill oil absorbs better than fish oil and has more EPA, and yet people still only use a max of 6 g fish oil on average. Krill oil shouldn't need much, and holy shit is it expensive.

I take two grams fish oil 3x daily with Uridine, which should be enough for a normal diet. At first I did 3 g 3x daily, but cut back after a week, as any deficiency should have been corrected by then.


Exactly what I thought. I take 2 grams of fish oil daily and then at lunch 500mgs of Krill Oil with my sulbutiamine. I'd suspect that to be more than enough. 12grams of Krill Oil just to get full absorption of Sulbutiamine doesn't make sense. Like I said, most small meals don't contain nearly enough EFA's or EPA specifically to justify sulbutiamine absorption yet that's how most people, I'd hazard to say, actually take it...with a small meal and EFA or just an EFA.

Nope, you got me wrong, it's 12g of fats not 12g of krill oil.
I can't seem to find the study but it was basically saying that absorption of fat soluble molecules requires at least 12g of fat for proper assimilation and with 24g being the optimal amount.


Concerning my sulbutiamine trial, it's been something like 3 weeks and it's still doing ok, I feel pretty good, much more motivated and active, my cognitive function is much better as well.
Also my speech is still better than it was before, I can speak in more eloquent sentences and fill it with a prettily rich vocabulary (that I already had of course but I had difficulty to form complex sentences) and also idioms come to me almost naturally, I don't even need to think about it, it just comes naturally, hmmm I guess that's the dopamine effect.
I noticed notably in classes when in management sessions we have to write up a synthesis from a doc (I usually hate this kind of exercise because I'm rather bad at redacting stuff, this time I rather enjoyed it), I managed to form good sentences and also the structure of my text seemed really coherent, it was totally automatic!
This has been confirmed several times, I also noted that when I induce sleep deprivation this effect plummets sharply.
For optimal effect, I'm coupling it with choline in the night and with lots of exercise!

I also gave a try to inositol for D2 upregulation, definetely not for me! It makes me totally unmotivated, lethargic, etc...
I guess its functioning is totally different, maybe it works on the long term compared to sulbutiamine which seems to work almost immediatly.
I will stay on choline for D2 upregulation.

Edited by renfr, 06 March 2013 - 05:34 AM.


#39 Dissolvedissolve

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 05:20 PM

For optimal effect, I'm coupling it with choline in the night and with lots of exercise!


I'd be careful about taking choline at night. I find it hard to supplement because taking it at night has memory-related risks and taking it earlier in the day makes me lethargic.

' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.pnas.org/content/101/7/2140.full.pdf']
The neurotransmitter acetylcholine is considered essential for proper functioning of the hippocampus-dependent declarative memory system, and it represents a major neuropharmacological target for the treatment of memory de&#64257;cits, such as those in Alzheimer’s disease. During slow-wave sleep (SWS), however, declarative memory consolidation is particularly strong, while acetylcholine levels in the hippocampus drop to a minimum. Observations in rats led to the hypothesis that the low cholinergic tone during SWS is necessary for the replay of new memories in the hippocampus and their long-term storage in neocortical networks. However, this low tone should not affect nondeclarative memory systems. In this study, increasing central nervous cholinergic activation during SWS-rich sleep by posttrial infusion of 0.75 mg of the cholinesterase inhibitor physostigmine completely blocked SWS-related consolidation of declarative memories for word pairs in human subjects. The treatment did not interfere with consolidation of a nondeclarative mirror tracing task. Also, physostigmine did not alter memory consolidation during waking, when the endogenous central nervous cholinergic tone is maximal. These &#64257;ndings are in line with predictions that a low cholinergic tone during SWS is essential for declarative memory consolidation.


→ source (external link)


#40 GetOutOfBox

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:29 PM

I also gave a try to inositol for D2 upregulation, definetely not for me! It makes me totally unmotivated, lethargic, etc...
I guess its functioning is totally different, maybe it works on the long term compared to sulbutiamine which seems to work almost immediatly.
I will stay on choline for D2 upregulation.

Well, most things that upregulate receptors will cause negative effects while you take them. The idea is that you suffer for a while, but then can enjoy days of stability when you need them (but you'll have to keep cycling in order to prevent a return to homeostasis). I prefer this method, since the key advantage is that you're making yourself more sensitive to your normal levels of neurotransmitters. This has the advantage over agonists/reuptake inhibitors of lasting until downregulation (which can be prevented), whereas normal medication such as Ritalin have fairly short lives, with the effects diminishing rapidly as they are excreted. Downregulation will take at least several days (sometimes weeks) to happen at perceptible levels (at least for dopamine, some receptors up/down regulate fairly fast, but still no faster than over a period of 2 days).

So what you'd have to do to get those effects would be to at first take the antagonist daily for several weeks, so that the brain would upregulate the affected receptors. After that, cycles of week-on/week-off will allow you to keep the effects, and actually feel them for an entire week (or it can be staggered more frequently, like every other day, the key is to not spend more than a week off without at least several days on).
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#41 xsiv1

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:01 PM

I also gave a try to inositol for D2 upregulation, definetely not for me! It makes me totally unmotivated, lethargic, etc...
I guess its functioning is totally different, maybe it works on the long term compared to sulbutiamine which seems to work almost immediatly.
I will stay on choline for D2 upregulation.

Well, most things that upregulate receptors will cause negative effects while you take them. The idea is that you suffer for a while, but then can enjoy days of stability when you need them (but you'll have to keep cycling in order to prevent a return to homeostasis). I prefer this method, since the key advantage is that you're making yourself more sensitive to your normal levels of neurotransmitters. This has the advantage over agonists/reuptake inhibitors of lasting until downregulation (which can be prevented), whereas normal medication such as Ritalin have fairly short lives, with the effects diminishing rapidly as they are excreted. Downregulation will take at least several days (sometimes weeks) to happen at perceptible levels (at least for dopamine, some receptors up/down regulate fairly fast, but still no faster than over a period of 2 days).

So what you'd have to do to get those effects would be to at first take the antagonist daily for several weeks, so that the brain would upregulate the affected receptors. After that, cycles of week-on/week-off will allow you to keep the effects, and actually feel them for an entire week (or it can be staggered more frequently, like every other day, the key is to not spend more than a week off without at least several days on).


One would definitely have to be very selective about doing things this way with a variety of compounds, especially those that are known to have dependence or withdrawal risks. Gaba agonists come to mind and can range from something as simple as Taurine or Valerian to Benzodiazepines and other Gaba A/B agonists. Taking something that antagonizes Gaba could likely cause some serious issues...namely exacerbating withdrawal.

But I get what you're saying...referring to safe nootropic-like compounds.

Edited by xsiv1, 06 March 2013 - 08:14 PM.


#42 GetOutOfBox

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:52 PM

One would definitely have to be very selective about doing things this way with a variety of compounds, especially those that are known to have dependence or withdrawal risks. Gaba agonists come to mind and can range from something as simple as Taurine or Valerian to Benzodiazepines and other Gaba A/B agonists. Taking something that antagonizes Gaba could likely cause some serious issues...namely exacerbating withdrawal.

But I get what you're saying...referring to safe nootropic-like compounds.


Yep, antagonizing GABA would definitely be unpleasant, and due to the rapidly adaptive property of the GABA receptors, even if they upregulated they would return to homeostasis rapidly. I would guess an antagonist of GABA would produce some nasty anxiety, heightened sensitivity (since GABA serves to inhibit, vs glutamates excitatory nature), racing thoughts, etc. I would leave GABA alone in the long-term. I myself use Phenibut very rarely for big events (such as parties), as I prefer how Phenibut reduces inhibition without impairing cognition. I would never use it more than twice in a row, since it produces some rather nasty rebound anxiety.

I would focus on the dopamine system, since it seems the benefits would last longer, as it seems to be slower to up/down-regulate.

#43 medievil

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:33 PM

Many ap's are gabaa antagonists.

#44 brainslugged

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:23 PM

Well, It's been a little over 2 weeks on sulbutiamine, and I am not feeling much. Apart from mild time dilation, I am not more outgoing or anything like that. Things aren't any more interesting to me. Maybe physical arousal is heightened a bit, but it is hard to tell if it is just placebo. Definitely nothing good, though. If anything, I feel a bit more bored and impatient.

If it decreases D1, maybe there is a point where the D1 is already so low that decreasing transmission doesn't do much for causing it to upregulate or something, who knows.

I may keep on it for another week since I think I have enough capped to do so, but I am not capping any more after that.

It effects everyone differently, I guess. I originally had pretty high hopes for it, but it fell short for me. Good luck to those who have yet to try it.
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#45 xsiv1

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:48 PM

Well, It's been a little over 2 weeks on sulbutiamine, and I am not feeling much. Apart from mild time dilation, I am not more outgoing or anything like that. Things aren't any more interesting to me. Maybe physical arousal is heightened a bit, but it is hard to tell if it is just placebo. Definitely nothing good, though. If anything, I feel a bit more bored and impatient.

If it decreases D1, maybe there is a point where the D1 is already so low that decreasing transmission doesn't do much for causing it to upregulate or something, who knows.

I may keep on it for another week since I think I have enough capped to do so, but I am not capping any more after that.

It effects everyone differently, I guess. I originally had pretty high hopes for it, but it fell short for me. Good luck to those who have yet to try it.


I wouldn't bother. I've experienced the exact same effects after deciding to stay on it for nearly 20 days. I don't feel a single discernible difference even when taking 400mgs at once.
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#46 renfr

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 02:02 AM

I happened to have taken some caffeine with it, I'm very sensitive to caffeine (I never drink coffee) so just a little bit is enough to keep me wide awake.
With sulbutiamine I had huge bursts of euphoria, it was really pleasant if you put out the tremors, I never had euphoria with caffeine.

I started taking sulbutiamine again, but I won't take it with coffee anymore, I used the capsule machine to fill my caps with the Sun nootropic batch.

Motivation is definetely increased, I stopped doing anything that is totally not productive which is a good thing.
Speech enhancement is still there and I feel much at ease interacting socially with people, it doesn't really make you more social in the sense that you're not going to come and talk to anyone but it increases your social abilities, at least to me I can talk more easily to people, it's much more easier to talk about anything, my fear of having lulls in a discussion is now gone and doing proper eye contact is much more easier to do.
Also in general the sentiment of fear has been generally reduced.

Of course there are some side effects :
- Sometimes increased hunger
- Sometimes butterflies in the stomach but that's quite rare but it did happen
- to me it must be stacked with choline or else I feel like a small cognitive decline (memory retention is affected, working memory unaffected)
- increase of fight or flight reactions, this is because dopamine is a precursor to adrenaline
- Is definetely a side effect but it's not really unpleasant and sometimes even pleasant, it happens to me that a lot of time during the day I shake my legs for no apparent reason, it's something that I can control but I like doing it, this side effect is kinda good because it helps me to assess if the effects of sulbutiamine are still there.

Doesn't stack well with :
- Inositol (inositol seems to numb the effects and increased hunger is 10fold more)
- Diazepam or in general anything that agonizes GABA (I don't take diazepam at all, it's a kind of an emergency medication to me but since I got a new batch I had to try it and it totally numbed the effects of sulbutiamine)
- Bacopa, totally numbs the effects and makes me lethargic as usual, lethargy is reduced with sulbutiamine but still it's very strong, a single 250mg himalaya cap is enough to kill off sulbutiamine effects

Stacks well with :
- Coffee but at moderate doses or else it can increase tremors a lot
- Boron, this mineral found in red apples, brown rice or almonds is known to increase testosterone a lot, taking boron increases my general confidence a lot, it stacks quite very well with sulbutiamine
- Vitamin D, vitamin B6 : these are needed for production of dopamine and using them with sulbutiamine does increase dopamine transmission

No effect with :
- Selegiline, neither oral neither sublingual selegiline coupled with sulbutiamine gave any kind of effect

What is great is the fact that it has been nearly one month since I've tried this and effects are still ongoing.
I recommend taking NAC and Selegiline 2-3 times a week with it to protect dopaminergic neurons from oxidative damage.

#47 renfr

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:52 AM

I withdrew sulbutiamine, from now on I will abstain from it during 1 week.
I happened to take some GBL to see if I could reproduce the effect I had in May 2012, well some say that the dopamine rebound theory for GBL/GHB is bollocks but at least it seems to work on me.
Yesterday took my sulbutiamine in the morning as usual, in the evening before sleeping I took some GBL (but really a small dose 0,3mL then later 0,75mL), I slept and woke up wide awake 2 hours later.
I have a strong dopamine rush, as well as an adrenaline rush, it feels pleasant and is totally the same effects as in May 2012 i.e. extremely increased sociability (more than sulbutiamine alone), pleasant pressure on the forehead, strong motivation, adrenergic effects.
Some bad effects with increased blood pressure and vasoconstriction.
GHB kinetics still remain very occult to me, this rush doesn't occur without sulbutiamine.
But this is definetely a dopamine rush, and it is lasting for several hours. I know GHB is a bad addictive drug but sporadically it could be a bad combo when you really need a dopamine rush. I will try this again 1 week after taking sulbutiamine again to see how this dopamine rush activation works.
Also I'm wondering if sulbutiamine should be more a supplement of the night than of the morning, inhibiting dopamine output in the night would be more productive for the rest of the day, I can sleep with this though from my experiements sleep is lighter, I will try taking it at night after the one week abstinence.

#48 renfr

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 02:24 PM

Day 2 of withdrawal and adrenergic syndrome still occurs as well as increased dopamine.
This is what I experience :
- constant vasoconstriction
- high energy levels
- high focus abilities
- slightly higher blood pressure
- higher heart rate (78-83 vs 56-70)
- shaky limbs (not very visible but it does shakes)
- Forehead pressure (that has largely subsided now)
- Much increased sociability
- Mood is rather good
- Increased memory retention
I guess 1 month of chronic inhibition has paid off, the effects will likely subside in a week or two.
It turns out inhibition would be more productive if it was done at night.

I will analyze sleep patterns and report in.

Edited by renfr, 15 March 2013 - 02:27 PM.


#49 timtam777

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:54 PM

Ive tried many things to get rid of my anhedonia/low motivation and low libido. Nothing's really had a great effect on either except for wellbutrin (Zyban in Aus) which I can't afford to keep taking, and The CILTEP stack which made me feel great for a few days then it made me feel like crap. No libido changes though.
I saw this thread and thought I would give sulbutiamine a crack.
I've been taking 3 x 200mg caps per day for the last 2.5 weeks - two with breakfast, and one after lunch. I make sure I'm ingesting something with fat in it when I'm taking them.

The effect has been subtle and intermittant, but it's there.

Increased sociability, verbal fluency and verbal creativity is noticeable. Short bursts of wanting to do things is nice. Memory has improved slightly. Tiredness seems to kill the effects though, and I'm noticing some tinkling in my ears every now and then. No increase in libido. Doh!
If there's no improvement after a month of the current effect, I might up the dose to around 1000mg day to see what effect that has.

Edited by timtam777, 27 March 2013 - 10:56 PM.


#50 xsiv1

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:40 AM

Ive tried many things to get rid of my anhedonia/low motivation and low libido. Nothing's really had a great effect on either except for wellbutrin (Zyban in Aus) which I can't afford to keep taking, and The CILTEP stack which made me feel great for a few days then it made me feel like crap. No libido changes though.
I saw this thread and thought I would give sulbutiamine a crack.
I've been taking 3 x 200mg caps per day for the last 2.5 weeks - two with breakfast, and one after lunch. I make sure I'm ingesting something with fat in it when I'm taking them.

The effect has been subtle and intermittant, but it's there.

Increased sociability, verbal fluency and verbal creativity is noticeable. Short bursts of wanting to do things is nice. Memory has improved slightly. Tiredness seems to kill the effects though, and I'm noticing some tinkling in my ears every now and then. No increase in libido. Doh!
If there's no improvement after a month of the current effect, I might up the dose to around 1000mg day to see what effect that has.


Please look at the post above you. I really don't think that upping your dosage to 1000mg will be the answer you're looking for. It is my opinion that cycling off of Sulbutiamine is really the best option and then cycling back on for a period of time. I've never exceeded a 400mg dosage for sulbutiamine but could tell that tolerance was setting in and the effects were becoming more sporadic or intermittent. What exactly were you taking under the CILTEP regimen because their are variations of it and it's been rather successful in my case although I've been taking the weekends off and have recently added NALT at 2pm @ 350mgs with some caffeine. It keeps me going until 8-9pm when I can finally chill and the kids are in bed. I have an office job that demands focus, accuracy and multitasking BUT also requires motivation because I'm in charge of my program. I've also ordered some Swanson Peak ATP to alternate the NALT afternoons during the work week. I switch up things alot and have found it's worked for me. Just over a month ago, I have Noopept a shot for a 2 month period and enjoyed those results. I still like my Piracetam and especially Aniracetam for weekends and on alternating days during the week.

#51 renfr

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:27 AM

Ive tried many things to get rid of my anhedonia/low motivation and low libido. Nothing's really had a great effect on either except for wellbutrin (Zyban in Aus) which I can't afford to keep taking, and The CILTEP stack which made me feel great for a few days then it made me feel like crap. No libido changes though.
I saw this thread and thought I would give sulbutiamine a crack.
I've been taking 3 x 200mg caps per day for the last 2.5 weeks - two with breakfast, and one after lunch. I make sure I'm ingesting something with fat in it when I'm taking them.

The effect has been subtle and intermittant, but it's there.

Increased sociability, verbal fluency and verbal creativity is noticeable. Short bursts of wanting to do things is nice. Memory has improved slightly. Tiredness seems to kill the effects though, and I'm noticing some tinkling in my ears every now and then. No increase in libido. Doh!
If there's no improvement after a month of the current effect, I might up the dose to around 1000mg day to see what effect that has.

I suggest you take from time to time some choline to theorically prevent further tolerance though I haven't experienced getting tolerance from sulbutiamine at all.
Lack of sleep may inhibit the effects as it will create tolerance overtime because during sleep your dopamine receptors are upregulated thanks to melatonin notably.

#52 renfr

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:44 AM

I noticed that there is a thresold of activity, low dosage under 700mg are not very effective to me and I tend to sleep a bit more than usual.
Higher dosages from 1000 to 1200mg are optimal to me, it gives me a feeling of permanent increase in dopamine.
I noticed after withdrawing and restarting that effects seem cumulative and it needs at least a week to experience full blown effects.
It's the best nootropic I've ever tried and it seems I never get tolerance from it.

#53 lammas2

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:20 PM

I noticed that there is a thresold of activity, low dosage under 700mg are not very effective to me and I tend to sleep a bit more than usual.
Higher dosages from 1000 to 1200mg are optimal to me, it gives me a feeling of permanent increase in dopamine.
I noticed after withdrawing and restarting that effects seem cumulative and it needs at least a week to experience full blown effects.
It's the best nootropic I've ever tried and it seems I never get tolerance from it.

Could you please post your exact dosing schedule?
Morning/night/both?
How many days on/off sulbutiamine?
Mood/motivation/sleep while on/off sulbutiamine?
etc...

#54 renfr

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:09 PM

I noticed that there is a thresold of activity, low dosage under 700mg are not very effective to me and I tend to sleep a bit more than usual.
Higher dosages from 1000 to 1200mg are optimal to me, it gives me a feeling of permanent increase in dopamine.
I noticed after withdrawing and restarting that effects seem cumulative and it needs at least a week to experience full blown effects.
It's the best nootropic I've ever tried and it seems I never get tolerance from it.

Could you please post your exact dosing schedule?
Morning/night/both?
How many days on/off sulbutiamine?
Mood/motivation/sleep while on/off sulbutiamine?
etc...

Could you please post your exact dosing schedule?
Morning/night/both?
All at once in the morning with a meal rich in fats, don't bother taking it in the afternoon or in the night I've found that to be counterproductive and induce light sleep.
How many days on/off sulbutiamine? Currently every day, I was planning to use it 4-5 days out of 7 but it seems that effects build up overtime and it is better to take it every day, though today I didn't take it and I still feel fine.
Mood/motivation/sleep while on/off sulbutiamine? Mood : great for most of time, there's no up and downs, also there's an increased incidence of fight and flight reaction, not always though.
Motivation : I'm always full of energy and can do anything I want, sometimes when it gets very cold in the house I tend to learn my course in my bed but I ended to sleep now with sulbutiamine I can stay in the bed without necessarily sleeping and getting tired
Sleep : sleep time is reduced and I feel refreshed upon awakening, sleep patterns aren't affected that much and there is incidence of deep sleep.

The only major side effect is sometimes an anxiogenic effect though high doses of magnesium have corrected this and another side effect is more sentitivity to food that boost dopamine such as peanut butter that makes my heart race as well as tension.

Check out the thread "sulbutiamine actually for the long term" I posted much more info on my experience.
Concerning tolerance, it could just be because of my own chemistry or my diet that is high in serotonin and therefore sulbutiamine helps balancing it out.

#55 GetOutOfBox

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:02 PM

Important!

One thing I think we should be careful about in regards to Sulbutiamine, is that since it's fat-soluble, there is probably a much lower tolerable intake threshold than normal Vitamin B1. The B vitamins are all water-soluble normally, as such it's extremely difficult to overdose on them, as the kidneys are capable of excreting excess fairly easily. However, since Sulbutiamine is fat-soluble it can build up in the body. This presents the issue of possibly causing chronic Hypertvitaminosis B1, which medical professionals might not be prepared to treat due to the fact that normally you could probably safely chug a bottle of Vitamin B1 pills and be perfectly fine (negative reactions have only been observed with high-dose intramuscular injections, never from oral intake).

As such, I'd limit daily doses to the brand manufacturer Arcalion's recommendation of 600 mg per day, if that doesn't produce effects, try calculating your therapeutic dose according to 12.5 mg/kg body weight (so 850 mg for a 68 kg/150 lb person).

Edited by GetOutOfBox, 02 April 2013 - 08:03 PM.

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#56 Strelok

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:18 PM

Important!

One thing I think we should be careful about in regards to Sulbutiamine, is that since it's fat-soluble, there is probably a much lower tolerable intake threshold than normal Vitamin B1. The B vitamins are all water-soluble normally, as such it's extremely difficult to overdose on them, as the kidneys are capable of excreting excess fairly easily. However, since Sulbutiamine is fat-soluble it can build up in the body. This presents the issue of possibly causing chronic Hypertvitaminosis B1, which medical professionals might not be prepared to treat due to the fact that normally you could probably safely chug a bottle of Vitamin B1 pills and be perfectly fine (negative reactions have only been observed with high-dose intramuscular injections, never from oral intake).

As such, I'd limit daily doses to the brand manufacturer Arcalion's recommendation of 600 mg per day, if that doesn't produce effects, try calculating your therapeutic dose according to 12.5 mg/kg body weight (so 850 mg for a 68 kg/150 lb person).


This seems like sound advice to me. Not THAT much is known about sulbutiamine, so it's definitely wise to err on the safe side.

#57 renfr

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:45 PM

Important!

One thing I think we should be careful about in regards to Sulbutiamine, is that since it's fat-soluble, there is probably a much lower tolerable intake threshold than normal Vitamin B1. The B vitamins are all water-soluble normally, as such it's extremely difficult to overdose on them, as the kidneys are capable of excreting excess fairly easily. However, since Sulbutiamine is fat-soluble it can build up in the body. This presents the issue of possibly causing chronic Hypertvitaminosis B1, which medical professionals might not be prepared to treat due to the fact that normally you could probably safely chug a bottle of Vitamin B1 pills and be perfectly fine (negative reactions have only been observed with high-dose intramuscular injections, never from oral intake).

As such, I'd limit daily doses to the brand manufacturer Arcalion's recommendation of 600 mg per day, if that doesn't produce effects, try calculating your therapeutic dose according to 12.5 mg/kg body weight (so 850 mg for a 68 kg/150 lb person).

Sulbutiamine raises thiamine concentrations in the brain however the raised thiamine is not becoming fat soluble, it stays water soluble therefore the risk is not that probable, there isn't information on the metabolization of sulbutiamine after it gives its effects, what I know is that effects start wearing off after few days of withdrawal so on a personal note I wouldn't say it is risky to take it.
What is risky is to take doses that are too large and would cause accumulation overtime, 1500mg with an half life of 5 hours would give you 58,59375mg of sulbutiamine after 24 hours, it is safe if you take this dose for 30 days then withdraw for 48 hours (less than 1mg would remain) and restart the cycle again.
With 600mg it is 23mg that accumulate each day, the difference overtime is not truly significant.
I never managed to have symptoms of vitamin B1 overdose from sulbutiamine however oral B1 consumed in large doses (1,5 grams) gave me palpitations, sweating and racing heart so it seems sulbutiamine isn't that dangerous as you say. If it was the case I would have already experienced these symptoms with my almost 2 month use.
But it's however true that effects accumulate overtime but that's just due to half life and not because it is fat soluble, fat soluble is here to keep higher plasma levels and have an higher half life, it doesn't eternally build up in the body, it does get excreted unless you prove the contrary.
Sulbutiamine has been available during several decades and a lot of people use it for asthenia everyday with no significant adverse effect, there was also a study to assess its clinical effects on Alzheimer patients, (here it's in french :http://www.neuromedia.ca/fr/sante/sulbutiamine.asp), to make it short early alzheimer stage patients took 600mg sulbutiamine a day during 3 months straight, though it doesn't talk about side effects the study was conducted to the end and seemed to be successful in boosting attention, episodic memory and executive memory.
3 months use of sulbutiamine at 600mg would cause a latent accumulation of 2109,375mg sulbutiamine which is quite high.

Also I'm interested by hypervitaminosis B1 due to IM injections, and also I have to say that hypervitaminosis B1 is poorly documented and seems to be almost inexistent.

The most important thing would be to respect half life excretion so that latent accumulation doesn't get to dangerous levels, using it straight for 30 days then withdraw during 2 days is a good compromise and seems to be the safest thing to do, however thanks for pointing that half life problem out as it wasn't really of my concern before.

Edited by renfr, 02 April 2013 - 08:49 PM.


#58 xsiv1

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:09 PM

I wish I'd get the same effect as you. Today I dosed 400mgs at once directly following lunch with a capsule of Krill oil and some choline. This after approximately a 1.5-2 week break. No discernible effect. Purchased from Relentless and used to get the effects in as little as 200mgs. This shortly turned to 400 and my next shot will be at 600. I do take Bacopa after dinner around 6pm though. Without providing you my profile regarding exercise, nutrition/supplementation, physiology and environmental conditions to mention a few, it'd be an exercise in futility trying to determine why or why not sulbutiamine works or has stopped working for me. I've got a bottle left and if escalating dose doesn't do the trick, I'll take a lengthy break from it until I can isolate variables more adequately.

#59 renfr

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:18 PM

Maybe you should stop bacopa and try without it, from my experience bacopa totally blunts the effect, besides bacosides have a long half life (7 hours I think) so I guess it is still active in the morning and probably decreases the efficacy of sulbutiamine.
Bacopa is the anti-sulbutiamine, immediatly after taking it I start yawning, being less motivated and my sleep lasts longer, it's good stuff to suppress dopamine induced insomnia though.
I don't know if exercising potentiates the effects of sulbutiamine, I do MIIT exercise almost everyday.

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#60 xsiv1

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:20 PM

I exercise 5-6 days a week and it's usually a combination of vigorous cardio and moderate weight training. Nutrition is solid and supplementation is somewhat lengthy lol. A multi, Vit B Complex, C, along with CILTEP in the morning. I've been trying sulbutiamine during my afternoon slump which usually comes on at around 2pm. Sleep is adequate but could be better ranging from 6.5-7.5hrs per night for years. Sulbutiamine worked wonderfully at first so perhaps I'll try your dosage level next time. I'm getting close to giving CILTEP a break (60 day mark) and move on back to another nootropic stack. I'm also getting ready to cycle off the Bacopa as well for a couple of reasons. Thanks for your input. I have enough to last me until these other supplements run their course and then give it another whirl. Tomorrow I may try my first 600mg dose as a test.





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