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Repairing DXM-induced Damage/Reversing Dissociation

dissociation derealization dxm dextromethorphan nootropics damage reversing nmda receptor glutamate

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#1 Illumination

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:56 AM


Hello,

I'm writing this in order to obtain opinions on how I should go about repairing the damage I've done to my brain over the past year and a half. About a year and a half ago I took the first psychoactive drug I've ever taken in my life, 356mg's of the dissociative drug Dextromethorphan. I researched it before first taking it until I was confident that I knew what the experience was going to be like and all that could go wrong. It was great, recreationally speaking. A few weeks later I decided to take it with caffeine (200mg anhydrous). It made me really energetic, made my heart pound, made me feel like dancing, music was amazing, I was really empathetic and loving, my vision was blurred, my social inhibitions were inhibited, minutes were hours, my ability to feel physical pain was inhibited, my sense of touch increased and some other effects which I can’t recall at the moment. After these two times I didn’t use it for a few months and I began feeling slightly depressed, had an increase in social anxiety, my emotional perception had been slightly (and at that time unnoticeably) dulled, and I developed a slight memory impairment.

I took it few more times (at the same 356mg dose) sometimes with the caffeine, sometimes without, and I started to feel like life was becoming gradually duller as time went by, my memory and my ability of conception/mental imagery began to become progressively impaired but for some reason I didn’t attribute these effects to my drug use. During these times, I sought to DXM for redemption rather than recreation; personal sorrows had led me to continually use DXM as an escape. Then I started taking the DXM with Deprenyl (Selegiline, MAOI-B Selective Inhibitor) at a 5mg dose. I don’t know from experience how coke or meth feels, but I could say this combination probably feels something like one of the two. After I took the combo, I was overflowing with motivation, I had to get up and do some kind of physical activity; run, exercise or dance or I felt like I would explode. Talking was a lot more fun as well. I had almost no tolerance, the effects were the same with each use of the combo, except for the psychological dissociation which started to become more and more apparent after every time I used DXM. It was as if after every time I used DXM and the effects had worn off, a little bit of dissociation stayed with me. Life gradually became less immersive and less engaging after each time I used DXM. I had to read sentences over 2-3 times to understand what was being expressed, complex ideas started to become harder to grasp and to communicate and my imagination lost a lot of its vividness. My learning and memory had been without a doubt impaired. My intelligence gradually degraded. My brain had to put in extra effort to process the information being given to it by the world around me, and my social anxiety had become even worse. I also noticed my sensory perception becoming less sensitive.

I continued using the combination for a few months. In total I probably did the DXM + Deprenyl combo about 20 times. However, I ran out of Deprenyl and just used the DXM by itself. I continued using DXM. First, doing it a few times every week (still with the same 356mg dose), then everyday. Then after using DXM for maybe around 40-50 times, I took for the first time a mega-dose of 712mg (which was more than likely a lot more considering the DXM that was already in my body prior to taking this dose) and then for the next 3 days, although during that 3 day period I hadn't taken any more DXM, I couldn't focus on or block out any sound I heard, similar with anything I read, my sensory perception was not very helpful in translating the world into something I could understand. Anything exogenous was almost un-interpretable. I wasn't hallucinating, or becoming psychotic. It was dissociation, stepping outside of my own head and making sense of the world was the hardest thing to accomplish. After that 3 day period, I took a break from using it for a few weeks. During those few weeks of not using DXM, I began to become very anti-social, I developed a bipolar-like manic depressive behavior, my behavior ranging from feeling hopeless, depressed and suicidal to being short-tempered, hyper-focused and sleeping for 3-6 hours a day. Then I decided to visit a psychiatrist, I exaggerated my symptoms and behavior, thinking that the doctor would give me something helpful if I did (I was thinking along the lines of a SSRI), and after a few weeks of visits, my doctor unenthusiastically prescribed me Seroquel (Quetiapine, an atypical antipsychotic) at 50mg/once daily. It sucked away any of the pleasure I that I could still feel from my life. Any motivation, creativity and focus I had went away, and I was sleeping as an occupation. To this day I feel like taking an antipsychotic was one of the worst decisions I’ve made in my life. Although, at that time I didn’t completely hate it, being as terribly depressed as I was, sleep was an escape from what my life had become.
After awhile I ran out of Seroquel and decided not to use it anymore. Almost immediately after I stopped using Seroquel I developed dyskinesia tremors, which worsened over time. I used the DXM + Caffeine combo a few last times, just because I was so numb from the Seroquel, and was desperate to feel anything and after those few times I finally decided to completely quit using DXM. After quitting, I became really socially avoidant. It was almost like a general fear of people. I would have panic attacks in certain social situations, where my heart would start racing and I wouldn’t be able to breathe. When it happened, I would usually run into a bathroom or an isolated room and try to calm down. My depressive symptoms kept me feeling quite hopeless, and all my other cognitive disabilities I described (dissociation, anhedonia, memory and learning impairments) had reached levels of severity. For awhile I used Cannibis to try and drown out how terrible I felt, but that was like Seroquel all over again and I quit after about two weeks. Then, I started smoking tobacco but I also quit that after a week.

After awhile some of my conditions got a bit better. Enough for me to get a little research in every now and then, so I began researching in neuroscience in order to get a better understanding of what was going on in my brain, and more importantly what I could do to attenuate the damage I was certain I had. Apart from self-made therapy of trying to desensitize my social fears, I took a hopeful look into nootropics, where I was glad to find such relieving literature of neurogenesis and cognitive enhancement. First I tried green tea. I’d used it before, but I hadn’t really recognized its nootropic properties until recently when I made a cup of it and began to feel motivated and a little less dissociated. It was great; it opened my mind up to other nootropics and their possible use in the remedy of my cognitive problems. I started taking gingko biloba (180mg) with the green tea and it seemed to have added to the focus the green tea gave me, but this focus was hard to control so I stopped taking the gingko. For about a week I used Forskolin, (4-15mg, sporadically) which gave me a little more motivation and helped my memory a bit. After I stopped taking Forskolin, I began taking SAM-e for about 2 weeks (400mg-morning, 400-afternoon/everyday) which hasn’t seemed to have much of a noticeable effect on me but I will take it again in the future in order to get a better assessment of its efficacy in the treatment/repair of my cognitive impairments.
All of the nootropics I previously spoke about seem to have had mostly positive effects on my cognitive ability. However, I have not selected them specifically based on my goal to treat/repair my cognitive ability, and taking nootropics in such a manner has been inefficient. Thus, I have been focusing my efforts on trying to accurately determine what kind of damage has been done to my brain, its severity and how to best go about repairing the damage.

It has been approximately 6 months since the last time I used DXM. Many of the conditions I have previously stated have stayed the same in terms of severity but some have become slightly better, although sometimes I question whether or not things are becoming worse.
Below I have outlined my most severe symptoms and beside them my hypothesis of what may be their cause:

-- Memory Loss, Difficulty in the Formation of New Memories, Difficulty in Conception/ Thought/Difficulty in the Formation, Processing and Organization of Complete/Clear Ideas, Difficulty in the Interpretation/Understanding of Ideas [Decreased Neuronal Synchronization, Glutamate Receptor Dysfunction/ Damage, Neuronal Degeneration, Acetylcholine Receptor Damage]

-- Reduced Perception of Pleasure, Loss of Motivation [Decreased Neuronal Synchronization, Significantly Reduced Serotonin Receptor Density, Serotonin Transporter Damage, Significantly Reduced Dopamine Receptor Density, Dopamine Transporter Damage, Glutamate Receptor Dysfunction/Damage ]

-- Severe Social Anxiety/ Avoidance Disorder [Significantly Reduced Serotonin Receptor Density, Serotonin Transporter Damage, Significantly Reduced Dopamine Receptor Density, Dopamine Transporter Damage]

One of the most obvious forms of damage I have is NMDAR antagonist neurotoxicity. I doubt this has led to lesions, however, impairments in my short term memory, long term memory, visual processing ability, my ability to reason, form clear concepts and in my decision making ability makes it clear that some serious damage has been done. I find that I often over-explain simple concepts and that being concise is very challenging for me. I take a lot longer than an average person to come up with decisive conclusions to problems and this affects many aspects of my behavior and productivity.

Among neurotoxicity, because NMDAR plays such an important role in LTP I feel that there also must be some kind of dysfunction in my brain’s glutamatergic system, which I believe has ruined my brain’s synaptic plasticity. I also believe that the frequent use of the DXM + Deprenyl combo has led to glutamate excitotoxicity and dopaminergic neurotoxicity in my brain. This has possibly led to the loss of neurons in my brain and has also contributed to my motivational problems.

DXM is a SSRI, consequently, the possibility of serotonergic damage is very likely, as a matter of fact, the effect profile for DXM in high doses is very similar to the effect profile of Serotonin Syndrome. Also, I can remember experiencing mild Serotonin Syndrome-like effects many times while on DXM. This had led me to believe that my avoidance and anxiety problems stem from serotonergic damage.

My knowledge of neuroscience is limited, and the rate at which I am comprehending the concepts that it comprises of is very far from optimal. However, I believe that there are many people here on this forum that are very neuro-scientifically knowledgeable and I would love to get the opinion of such people on my hypothesis of what my damage is and how best to go about repairing the damage. I honestly do believe that reversing the damage I’ve done to my brain is possible and I would appreciate the least bit of help in the process. Since this is happens to be my first post, I would also like to say that I am truly appreciative to be apart of such a community and will try to contribute as much useful information as I can to the forum.

 


Edited by cryonicsculture, 18 June 2014 - 02:35 AM.

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#2 renfr

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:07 PM

DXM does cause lesions, it's called Olney's lesions. Unfortunately lesions are permanent, DXM NMDA antagonization is quite strong and this is why you have brain damage now.
Some drugs might help, time might help and best would be to bet on neuroplasticity but if it was more than one year ago there isn't a lot of hope then.
Seroquel also might have caused permanent damage, has your dystonia gone away or is it still there?
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#3 machete234

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:12 PM

DXM does cause lesions, it's called Olney's lesions. Unfortunately lesions are permanent, DXM NMDA antagonization is quite strong and this is why you have brain damage now.

Never proven in primates just in rats at high doses.

So its likely there is no brain damage at all and Id try to find a racetam that you OP can tolerate best because racetams do the opposite of dissociatives.
I snorted away a gram of MXE last summer and racetams helped me to become sharper very quickly

Edited by machete234, 22 February 2013 - 06:16 PM.

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#4 renfr

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:34 PM

DXM does cause lesions, it's called Olney's lesions. Unfortunately lesions are permanent, DXM NMDA antagonization is quite strong and this is why you have brain damage now.

Never proven in primates just in rats at high doses.

So its likely there is no brain damage at all and Id try to find a racetam that you OP can tolerate best because racetams do the opposite of dissociatives.
I snorted away a gram of MXE last summer and racetams helped me to become sharper very quickly

Not proven but there is a high probability that it does occur in humans, as far as I know extreme NMDA antagonism causes neuron destruction by calcium flooding and this does cause lesions.
DXM recreational usage is known to cause permanent brain damage, there are a lot of horror stories about that out there.
You won't have brain damage if you take one dose of DXM but this guy overdid it, for nearly two months he took it everyday, for nearly two months he went into a state of hyperexcitability and strong NMDA antagonism, this is a long term use and probably the 712mg dose caused further damage.
I don't want to be pessimist but DXM recreational use is just irresponsible overall if it was done chronically, if it isn't gone after years then there's not a lot of hope but we don't know what is his current lifestyle and if he's been taking other drugs during that period.
He will probably with the help of some drugs correct temporarily some of the damage to recover normal human functions but it's unsure whether these drugs will "reverse" this kind of damage.

Edited by renfr, 22 February 2013 - 06:37 PM.

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#5 machete234

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:32 PM

DXM recreational usage is known to cause permanent brain damage, there are a lot of horror stories about that out there.

Often with drugs horror stories are not true Im always very suspicious with these things that are told as "white lies" to protect the children.
If they can get hold of a guy like him why dont they check if there are these lesions just to be sure after all they sell DXM over the counter as a cough medicine wouldnt they be interested if their medicine can make people stupid?

From wiki

Frank Sharp also works in this area. I discussed with Sharp how this issue stood in 1998. His view was that reversible toxicchanges in the rat started to appear at 40mg/kg and reached a level at which no further changes occurred (a plateau) at 100mg/kg, when a little cell death could be seen - but matters would not progress beyond this point. Extensive attempts to produce toxic changes in monkeys had been a total failure at doses up to 10mg/kg i.m. These monkey studies are unpublished.




What is true for dissociatives is that the after effects last very long and sometimes the tolerance never goes down again this means there are permanent or very long lasting changes to the brain.
But I doubt that its pysical holes in the brain that cause the problems

Edited by machete234, 22 February 2013 - 07:37 PM.


#6 renfr

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:56 PM

DXM recreational usage is known to cause permanent brain damage, there are a lot of horror stories about that out there.

Often with drugs horror stories are not true Im always very suspicious with these things that are told as "white lies" to protect the children.
If they can get hold of a guy like him why dont they check if there are these lesions just to be sure after all they sell DXM over the counter as a cough medicine wouldnt they be interested if their medicine can make people stupid?

From wiki

Frank Sharp also works in this area. I discussed with Sharp how this issue stood in 1998. His view was that reversible toxicchanges in the rat started to appear at 40mg/kg and reached a level at which no further changes occurred (a plateau) at 100mg/kg, when a little cell death could be seen - but matters would not progress beyond this point. Extensive attempts to produce toxic changes in monkeys had been a total failure at doses up to 10mg/kg i.m. These monkey studies are unpublished.




What is true for dissociatives is that the after effects last very long and sometimes the tolerance never goes down again this means there are permanent or very long lasting changes to the brain.
But I doubt that its pysical holes in the brain that cause the problems

Check out this topic : http://www.drugs-for...ead.php?t=17894
you can go on drugs-forum or bluelight and see what some users experienced, for many they're not trolls and are active members, some people had permanent amnesia and could not remember their friends for example...
Also read the part on bromide ions poisoning, it could be very well bromide poisoning from long term DXM use.

Bromide-poisoning from DXM has been KNOWN to cause IRREVERSIBLE BRAIN DAMAGE (Cerebello-bulbar syndrome), and SHRINKING OF THE CEREBELLUM!

Read more: http://www.drugs-for...4#ixzz2LexsuQ00


Edited by renfr, 22 February 2013 - 07:56 PM.


#7 anagram

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:01 PM

I swear people are going to make Selegiline illegal because idiots abuse it. Why would you combine DXM and Selegiline?? Its like pumping your veins with air and then taking a prick and popping them. Selegiline would actually reduce the effects of the DXM for one thing, excess neurotransmitters block the receptors that DXM binds to.
:|? O_O
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#8 jadamgo

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:20 AM

No, selegiline would drastically potentiate the SSRI action of dextromethorphan. It's a prime way to get serotonin syndrome. (That's if you were using MAO-A inhibiting doses. Lower doses would not affect DXM significantly.)

OP, you were asking about specific plans to repair brain damage, right? The most important thing is to ensure your overall lifestyle is healthy: food, sleep, and exercise. They all need to be done the right way and in the right amounts, day in and day out. Taking a daily multivitamin, handling any sleep issues, eating good things and avoiding damaging foods, and getting frequent aerobic (and perhaps also resistance) exercise is huge in ensuring brain health and in recovery from mental problems of any type.

Next comes problem-specific treatments, such as nootropics for cognition, psychotherapy for emotions and behavior, or herbs/medications for mood or treatment-resistant emotions/behaviors. I wish I could finish typing this post, but my break has ended so I'll be able to return to this thread later.

#9 anagram

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:39 AM

Piracetam will open up your NMDA receptors, use of DXM is associated with long term closure of these essential cellular apparatuses.

Perhaps a daily regimen of Piractam + choline will aid in your recovery, both are excellent nootropics.

-I recommend you try Citi-coline as well, it is probably the best treatment for drug related cognitive decline.
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#10 Spectre

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:56 AM

Oh man, another guy caught in the downward spiral of dxm dissociation -_-

I started a thread about the exact same thing a few years ago, DXM & Salvia put me in a 4 year psychosis that I thought I would never get out of. I have first hand experience with this so please take my advice on this. Obtain the following supplements and take them daily:

- NAC (n-acetyl- cysteine) 2g
- Glycine 5g
- Piracetam 1g
- Hypothalmex (by standard process)

And if you can find it (from a doctor or otherwise), get some SUBOXONE/buprenorphine. It's a kappa opioid blocker and completely cured my dissociation within 5 minutes of taking it, nothing else compares and I'm seriously hoping the FDA will approve it for depersonalization disorder, anxiety, and depression because it's a miracle. Let me know if this helps you, because they really helped me out. The Piracetam & NAC will help repair your NMDA system.
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#11 panhedonic

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:20 AM

It enrages me to read people talking about "permanent brain damage" without being 100% sure. Do you have any idea what this guy might be going through? The amount of anguish that it might mean to see your system impaired, badly enough so that your life changes, desperately trying to heal yourself and then someone from this forum screams i"permanent brain damage" in a "deal with it, dude" kind of tone? Surely that wasn't very useful for the OP....
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#12 renfr

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:17 AM

He has very likely caused permanent damage though that doesn't mean he will stay this way for the rest of his life but he should answer as to give us more details.

Spectre : did you have to use suboxone several times or else it would come back as suboxone wears off or did it have a long lasting effect?
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#13 Illumination

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:16 AM

DXM does cause lesions, it's called Olney's lesions. Unfortunately lesions are permanent, DXM NMDA antagonization is quite strong and this is why you have brain damage now.

Never proven in primates just in rats at high doses.

So its likely there is no brain damage at all and Id try to find a racetam that you OP can tolerate best because racetams do the opposite of dissociatives.
I snorted away a gram of MXE last summer and racetams helped me to become sharper very quickly

Not proven but there is a high probability that it does occur in humans, as far as I know extreme NMDA antagonism causes neuron destruction by calcium flooding and this does cause lesions.
DXM recreational usage is known to cause permanent brain damage, there are a lot of horror stories about that out there.
You won't have brain damage if you take one dose of DXM but this guy overdid it, for nearly two months he took it everyday, for nearly two months he went into a state of hyperexcitability and strong NMDA antagonism, this is a long term use and probably the 712mg dose caused further damage.
I don't want to be pessimist but DXM recreational use is just irresponsible overall if it was done chronically, if it isn't gone after years then there's not a lot of hope but we don't know what is his current lifestyle and if he's been taking other drugs during that period.
He will probably with the help of some drugs correct temporarily some of the damage to recover normal human functions but it's unsure whether these drugs will "reverse" this kind of damage.

To clarify, I used DXM everyday only for about a week. As machet234 said, there is not much research supporting that DXM causes lesions in primates and even less for humans, and this is why I cannot acurately say that becuase I used DXM so chronically I have lesions. I agree that it was really reckless of me to take DXM in the way that I took it but what I feel is important now is staying focused on my goal of trying to repair whatever damage I may have caused myself.

No, selegiline would drastically potentiate the SSRI action of dextromethorphan. It's a prime way to get serotonin syndrome. (That's if you were using MAO-A inhibiting doses. Lower doses would not affect DXM significantly.)

OP, you were asking about specific plans to repair brain damage, right? The most important thing is to ensure your overall lifestyle is healthy: food, sleep, and exercise. They all need to be done the right way and in the right amounts, day in and day out. Taking a daily multivitamin, handling any sleep issues, eating good things and avoiding damaging foods, and getting frequent aerobic (and perhaps also resistance) exercise is huge in ensuring brain health and in recovery from mental problems of any type.

Next comes problem-specific treatments, such as nootropics for cognition, psychotherapy for emotions and behavior, or herbs/medications for mood or treatment-resistant emotions/behaviors. I wish I could finish typing this post, but my break has ended so I'll be able to return to this thread later.

I agree with you that trying to live an overall healthy lifestyle is essential to recovery. I try to keep my diet high in protein, with a moderate amount of carbs and a minimal amount fats.
My Daily Supplemental Stack looks like this:
Morning
1 Monster Energy Drink
Piperine
800mg Folate

Afternoon
1.2g Micronized Creatine

Before Bed
Sleep Soundly Sleep Supplement (L-Tryptophan 500mg, Proprietary Calming Blend: Passionflower Herb+Lemon Balm Extract+Chamomile Flower+Valarian Root Extract 200mg, L-Theanine 50mg, Melatonin 3mg)

I had been taking a mega dosed multivitamin call Orange Triad which I cut out of my stack a few weeks ago because I had been getting headaches whenever I took it. I feel that it may have been the magnesium (GluR Antagonist) in the supplement which caused the headaches. I am currently looking for a new daily multivitamin.
In regards to exercise, I do dumbell exercises as well as high intensity interval running about 4 times a week. I notice that I am in a better mood after exercising (most likely endorphin release). However, although I honestly have not observed any significant positive effect on my cognition I can attribute solely to me exercising regularly, I feel like I am benefiting from it. I usually get about 8-10 hours of sleep every night. Also, I do not drink or smoke.

Oh man, another guy caught in the downward spiral of dxm dissociation -_-

I started a thread about the exact same thing a few years ago, DXM & Salvia put me in a 4 year psychosis that I thought I would never get out of. I have first hand experience with this so please take my advice on this. Obtain the following supplements and take them daily:

- NAC (n-acetyl- cysteine) 2g
- Glycine 5g
- Piracetam 1g
- Hypothalmex (by standard process)

And if you can find it (from a doctor or otherwise), get some SUBOXONE/buprenorphine. It's a kappa opioid blocker and completely cured my dissociation within 5 minutes of taking it, nothing else compares and I'm seriously hoping the FDA will approve it for depersonalization disorder, anxiety, and depression because it's a miracle. Let me know if this helps you, because they really helped me out. The Piracetam & NAC will help repair your NMDA system.

It is so wonderfully convenient for me to be recieving advice from someone who has had firsthand experience with the dissociation and other types of damage that DXM use can bring upon someone. I will most certainly be looking into purchasing the supplements you outlined, especially suboxone. Why do you describe your condition as psychosis? How many times have you used DXM? After 4 years of dissociation taking suboxone one time completely got rid of your dissociation?

#14 Illumination

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 02:38 AM

DXM does cause lesions, it's called Olney's lesions. Unfortunately lesions are permanent, DXM NMDA antagonization is quite strong and this is why you have brain damage now.
Some drugs might help, time might help and best would be to bet on neuroplasticity but if it was more than one year ago there isn't a lot of hope then.
Seroquel also might have caused permanent damage, has your dystonia gone away or is it still there?

I do not have dystonia, the most frequent ways the kind of dyskinesia I have presents itself is through involuntarily (but controllable) rapid and repetitive movements in one or both of my feet and through the popular pill rolling hand movement which occurs only in one hand. I voluntarily began using the pill rolling movement as a better way to hide my tremors when I become urged to do it in social situations that make me uncomfortable or self-conscious (which is very frequently). Outside of when I am socially nervous, the tremors come and go. They have become worse than when I first began having them but they are not severe and I don't always notice them.

#15 Illumination

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:30 AM

Oh man, another guy caught in the downward spiral of dxm dissociation -_-

I started a thread about the exact same thing a few years ago, DXM & Salvia put me in a 4 year psychosis that I thought I would never get out of. I have first hand experience with this so please take my advice on this. Obtain the following supplements and take them daily:

- NAC (n-acetyl- cysteine) 2g
- Glycine 5g
- Piracetam 1g
- Hypothalmex (by standard process)

And if you can find it (from a doctor or otherwise), get some SUBOXONE/buprenorphine. It's a kappa opioid blocker and completely cured my dissociation within 5 minutes of taking it, nothing else compares and I'm seriously hoping the FDA will approve it for depersonalization disorder, anxiety, and depression because it's a miracle. Let me know if this helps you, because they really helped me out. The Piracetam & NAC will help repair your NMDA system.

What function does the hypothalmex serve? Would I need to take a choline source with the piracetam to get the most out of it?

#16 Spectre

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:16 AM

The Suboxone was a permanent effect, I noticed an immediate change the first time I took it, but I continued it for 2 weeks straight and noticed cumulative effects with my dissociation becoming less pronounced each time I took it. The k-opioid receptor is theorized to be the link for dissociation/depersonalization.

Hypothalex helps rebalance your HPA axis. It is theorized to be connected with the underlying anxiety issues that accompany dissociation, but the Suboxone was very effective on its own for anxiety (it was the only drug that ever "cured" my anxiety instead of just treating it). It's been an absolute miracle and I plan on opening up an alternative psychiatric clinic in the future to treat people with PTSD, dissociative & anxiety disorders with Suboxone in my cure toolset.
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#17 Spectre

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:23 AM

By the way, no brain damage is literally "permanent"..there are always ways to fix brain damage and the brain uses plasticity as a natural healing mechanism to cope with any damage. It may seem like it's permanent when you feel the effects for a long time (as I did with my psychosis), but there's always a way to make it better. The key is agonizing/antagonizing the specific receptors in just the right amounts, and using supplements & drugs to help rebuild neuronal connections and cells. Amino acids are very effective at helping the brain repair itself, if you give your brain the proper nutrients and building blocks (as amino acids are the building blocks of protein), it will directly manufacture the hormones and neurotransmitters from those.

#18 Illumination

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:59 AM

The Suboxone was a permanent effect, I noticed an immediate change the first time I took it, but I continued it for 2 weeks straight and noticed cumulative effects with my dissociation becoming less pronounced each time I took it. The k-opioid receptor is theorized to be the link for dissociation/depersonalization.

Hypothalex helps rebalance your HPA axis. It is theorized to be connected with the underlying anxiety issues that accompany dissociation, but the Suboxone was very effective on its own for anxiety (it was the only drug that ever "cured" my anxiety instead of just treating it). It's been an absolute miracle and I plan on opening up an alternative psychiatric clinic in the future to treat people with PTSD, dissociative & anxiety disorders with Suboxone in my cure toolset.

Spectre, I found some contradictory information about K-opioid Receptor agonists on wikepedia that I want your opinion on.

It is now widely accepted that κ-opioid receptor (partial) agonists have dissociative and deliriant effects, as exemplified by salvinorin A. These effects are generally undesirable in medicinal drugs and could have had frightening or disturbing effects in the tested humans.

Also, have you noticed (even slightly) any dependance developing since you have been using buprenorphine?

#19 Spectre

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:04 AM

Kappa agonists like salvinorin is what you want to stay away from, dextromethorphan is also has agonist action at the k-opioid receptor. You need an ANTagonist. Buprenorphine is the only readily available k-opioid antagonist at the moment (there's a couple others being studied right now but they're not in clinical use yet).

Some people develop dependence on buprenorphine, but I personal never experienced it, I just felt great and reprogrammed to function correctly. It also got me off of other opiates I was somewhat hooked on for pain and benzodiazepines, it's an anti-addictive drug..it just makes you want to stay sober for the most part.

Salvia and dxm were the two drugs that drove me into the psychosis, I would get recurring déjà vu, chronic anxiety, panic attacks, runaway thought patterns, delusions, suicidal thoughts, derealization and strange cognitive separation (for lack of a better term). I just felt so disconnected from reality and out of my mind. Suboxone saved my sanity and life.
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#20 panhedonic

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:43 AM

Spectre, how long ago did you take your last "traumatic" dxm or salvia?

#21 Spectre

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:30 AM

August 2008. I was a naive teenager who was experimenting with substances that I didn't know enough about. The psychosis started in January 2008 but got a lot worse since that last dose in August. It lasted until March 2012, 4 years of absolute misery, I thought I was permafried and I did a lot of research to find stuff that would help me. If it wasn't for that psychosis happening, I wouldn't have ever gotten into nootropics and smart drugs, so I've actually benefitted immensely in terms of education all stemming from a case of irresponsible drug use.
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#22 panhedonic

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:43 AM

Glad to hear you have recovered.

#23 Illumination

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 07:02 AM

Kappa agonists like salvinorin is what you want to stay away from, dextromethorphan is also has agonist action at the k-opioid receptor. You need an ANTagonist. Buprenorphine is the only readily available k-opioid antagonist at the moment (there's a couple others being studied right now but they're not in clinical use yet).

Some people develop dependence on buprenorphine, but I personal never experienced it, I just felt great and reprogrammed to function correctly. It also got me off of other opiates I was somewhat hooked on for pain and benzodiazepines, it's an anti-addictive drug..it just makes you want to stay sober for the most part.

Salvia and dxm were the two drugs that drove me into the psychosis, I would get recurring déjà vu, chronic anxiety, panic attacks, runaway thought patterns, delusions, suicidal thoughts, derealization and strange cognitive separation (for lack of a better term). I just felt so disconnected from reality and out of my mind. Suboxone saved my sanity and life.

Sorry, I confused buprenorphine with it's active metabolite norbuprenorphine, which is actually a k- opiod receptor agonist. Buprenorphine seems pretty promising, but I doubt I'll be able to get any anytime soon. I'm going to go ahead and get the NAC, Glycine, Piracetam and Hypothalamex though.

#24 Spectre

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:25 PM

Kappa agonists like salvinorin is what you want to stay away from, dextromethorphan is also has agonist action at the k-opioid receptor. You need an ANTagonist. Buprenorphine is the only readily available k-opioid antagonist at the moment (there's a couple others being studied right now but they're not in clinical use yet).

Some people develop dependence on buprenorphine, but I personal never experienced it, I just felt great and reprogrammed to function correctly. It also got me off of other opiates I was somewhat hooked on for pain and benzodiazepines, it's an anti-addictive drug..it just makes you want to stay sober for the most part.

Salvia and dxm were the two drugs that drove me into the psychosis, I would get recurring déjà vu, chronic anxiety, panic attacks, runaway thought patterns, delusions, suicidal thoughts, derealization and strange cognitive separation (for lack of a better term). I just felt so disconnected from reality and out of my mind. Suboxone saved my sanity and life.

Sorry, I confused buprenorphine with it's active metabolite norbuprenorphine, which is actually a k- opiod receptor agonist. Buprenorphine seems pretty promising, but I doubt I'll be able to get any anytime soon. I'm going to go ahead and get the NAC, Glycine, Piracetam and Hypothalamex though.


Yeah, a lot of metabolites have much different effects than their prodrugs, but as long as you're not taking norbuprenorphine you'll be alright. It's hard to source buprenorphine, you either have to get an open minded doctor that's willing to prescribe it, check yourself into an opiate addiction clinic, or find a junkie that's selling their suboxone.

Let me know how the supplements effect you, I really believe you'll start to see a positive change in your symptoms.
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#25 medievil

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:24 AM

It enrages me to read people talking about "permanent brain damage" without being 100% sure. Do you have any idea what this guy might be going through? The amount of anguish that it might mean to see your system impaired, badly enough so that your life changes, desperately trying to heal yourself and then someone from this forum screams i"permanent brain damage" in a "deal with it, dude" kind of tone? Surely that wasn't very useful for the OP....

Im pretty sure ppl reporting permanent damage triggered a underlying disorder like predromal shizo like i did with steroid abuse.

#26 Illumination

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:30 PM

Spectre, I read through your 'DXM induced Psychosis' thread a bit and I saw that you guys talked about naltrexone for a while. After researching it for myself, I realized that it does the same as suboxone but, it is an antagonist at the u-receptor rather than an agonist. This is great for me because it is easier to get than suboxone and it isn't an opiod receptor agonist, which means there is no risk of dependance. Having tried both naltrexone and suboxone, how do you feel naltrexone compares to suboxone in in the reversal of your dissociation?

Another drug I found that seems very interesting is Amentoflavone.

Amentoflavone has demonstrated some antimalarial activity in trials significant affinities towards the delta-1, kappa opiod receptors (as an antagonist) and the allosteric (benzodiazepine) site on the GABA-A receptors. (As a negative allosteric modulator)

Amentoflavone is a constituent of a number of plants with medicinal properties, including Gingko biloba, Chamaecyparis obtusa (hinoki), Hypericum perforatum (St. John’s Wort) or Xerophyta pilicata.

Seeing this information makes me want to give gingko another shot. St. John's Wort seems to have alot of benefits as well.
Heres some info on the two main active chemicals inside SJW, Hypericin and Hyperforin:

Hyperforin is believed to be the primary active constituent responsible for the antidepressant and anxiolytic properties of the extracts of St. John's Wort. It acts as a reuptake inhibitor of monoamines, including serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine and of GABA and glutamate, with IC50 values of 0.05-0.10 μg/mL for all compounds, with the exception of glutamate, which is in the 0.5 μg/mL range. Hyperforin also inhibits the reuptake of glycine and choline, It appears to exert these effects by activating the transient receptor potential ion channel TRPC6. Activation of TRPC6 induces the entry of sodium and calcium into the cell which causes inhibition of monoamine reuptake.

Hypericin may inhibit the action of the enzyme dopamine beta hydroxylase leading to increased dopamine levels, although thus possibly decreasing norepinephrine and epinephrine.

It was initially believed that the anti-depressant pharmacological activity of hypericin was due to inhibition of monoamine oxidase enzyme. The crude extract of Hypericum is a weak inhibitor of MOA-A and MAO-B. Isolated hypericin does not display this activity, but does have some affinity for NMDA receptors.



#27 BLimitless

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:25 PM

Oh man, another guy caught in the downward spiral of dxm dissociation -_-

I started a thread about the exact same thing a few years ago, DXM & Salvia put me in a 4 year psychosis that I thought I would never get out of. I have first hand experience with this so please take my advice on this. Obtain the following supplements and take them daily:

- NAC (n-acetyl- cysteine) 2g
- Glycine 5g
- Piracetam 1g
- Hypothalmex (by standard process)

And if you can find it (from a doctor or otherwise), get some SUBOXONE/buprenorphine. It's a kappa opioid blocker and completely cured my dissociation within 5 minutes of taking it, nothing else compares and I'm seriously hoping the FDA will approve it for depersonalization disorder, anxiety, and depression because it's a miracle. Let me know if this helps you, because they really helped me out. The Piracetam & NAC will help repair your NMDA system.




This is good!

I suffered from glutamate excitotoxicity (ketamine related) and this stuff was godly, the NAC + piracetam + sarcosine in place of glycine, that is. I don't know about the others but if it works for you then what can I say! I would add some Niacin 1-3g/day and Vit C 3g/day there as well.



IME, no brain damage is permanent. Even if you lost half your brain there is always a WAY to get it back, it may not be realistic at this moment here and now but there is ALWAYS a way... the brain is a physical system and what can be broken can be fixed, simple as that really.

Edited by BLimitless, 03 July 2013 - 11:27 PM.

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#28 Illumination

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:50 PM

Thanks you everyone for your input, it is something I really appreciate. I am currently trying to find the right sources/vendors so that I can make the most of the money I spend, and as soon I recieve my supplements I'll begin logging my progress.

#29 Missjess

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 04:50 PM

Omg I am so god I found this thread!! I just made a post about iboga induced dissociation/blank mind etc I am going to follow the protocol mentioned by Spectre aswell :) I hope it helps me :(

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#30 tritium

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 10:38 PM

Obtain the following supplements and take them daily:

- NAC (n-acetyl- cysteine) 2g
- Glycine 5g
- Piracetam 1g
- Hypothalmex (by standard process)


How does glycine compare to dimethylglycine? Both can be easily purchased in bulk and I was wondering which to try.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: dissociation, derealization, dxm, dextromethorphan, nootropics, damage, reversing, nmda, receptor, glutamate

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