62 replies to this topic

[The Immortalist]

I can not even fathom how people could have created the idea of god. When I try to picture myself in a time before science I just can't see myself creating such a concept as god even if I lived for thousands of years. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if everyone thought like me the concept of god wouldn't even be born into existence. Does anyone else here think this way?

[rwac]

People need something bigger than themselves to believe in. God (also patriotism, environmentalism etc etc) fills this niche nicely.

[The Immortalist]

I guess the most frustrating part is that when people couldn't find out how everything worked instead of searching for the right answer or admitting that there was not enough information to draw a proper conclusion they instead made up their own false stories that aren't based on observation of the world around them.

[Droplet]

Something I read years ago suggests that gods, spirits etc. are an extension of the behaviour we have as children where we make believe an imaginary friend. It has also been suggested that celebrity interest is another manifestation of this behaviour. Personally I'm agnostic and don't rule god out and have no interest in celeb life whatsoever.

I do think that if there is indeed no god at all, it is simply a case of people not understanding how the world came into being and the only thing they could conceive is a being building it. Perhaps it's simply because humans need to feel that they have something to look up to, a greater purpose than just existing for an unfathomable reason and dying?

This isn't a dig at anyone who is either a believer in god or fond of trashy celeb stuff..I know some VERY smart people into either or both.

Edited by Droplet, 21 March 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[shadowhawk]

I guess the most frustrating part is that when people couldn't find out how everything worked instead of searching for the right answer or admitting that there was not enough information to draw a proper conclusion they instead made up their own false stories that aren't based on observation of the world around them.

And who is searching for the right answer? Only you? Is this the answer?

People who believe in God are not interested in how things work? Based on observation alone, how did you come to this conclusion?

[shadowhawk]

Something I read years ago suggests that gods, spirits etc. are an extension of the behaviour we have as children where we make believe an imaginary friend. It has also been suggested that celebrity interest is another manifestation of this behaviour. Personally I'm agnostic and don't rule god out and have no interest in celeb life whatsoever.

I do think that if there is indeed no god at all, it is simply a case of people not understanding how the world came into being and the only thing they could conceive is a being building it. Perhaps it's simply because humans need to feel that they have something to look up to, a greater purpose than just existing for an unfathomable reason and dying?

This isn't a dig at anyone who is either a believer in god or fond of trashy celeb stuff..I know some VERY smart people into either or both.

Your theory cuts both ways. Do you understand how the world came into being. Tell me. I expect an agnostic response. You are a friend and I enjoy your posts.

[shadowhawk]

People need something bigger than themselves to believe in. God (also patriotism, environmentalism etc etc) fills this niche nicely.

How Big? What does bigness have to do with it? How about smallness? I guess we know we are not capable of creating either bigness or smallness. In fact there is a lot we can’t do. Perhaps size does not matter and our answer is not here.

Patriotism and environmentalism answer, “How did people think to create the concept of god?” How?

[The Immortalist]

People need something bigger than themselves to believe in. God (also patriotism, environmentalism etc etc) fills this niche nicely.

Why do people need something bigger then themselves to believe in? Why not just believe in themselves?

[johnross47]

It's not so hard to see how primitive people arrived at a concept like spirit, as a combination of the constant stream of sensations, that constitutes consciousness/self, and the difference between a dead person and a living one. The extension of this gut feeling to all things takes you fairly easily to anamist religions. From these the development seems to follow developments in social structure so that we now have gods based loosely on nasty bronze age despots who require constant praise and obsequiousness. Why most extant gods are not more evolved than that is harder to understand but there are probably historic explanations for why many religions have become stuck in the past. Written holy books are probably partly to blame.

Beyond the question of how religion arose, there is the question of why it persists? Probably because most people are not driven by logic and reason, but by emotion and attachments. Their reasoning is mostly the conjuring up of justifications for what they feel; a very human trait but one that makes them immune to rationality.

[The Immortalist]

It's not so hard to see how primitive people arrived at a concept like spirit, as a combination of the constant stream of sensations, that constitutes consciousness/self, and the difference between a dead person and a living one. The extension of this gut feeling to all things takes you fairly easily to anamist religions. From these the development seems to follow developments in social structure so that we now have gods based loosely on nasty bronze age despots who require constant praise and obsequiousness. Why most extant gods are not more evolved than that is harder to understand but there are probably historic explanations for why many religions have become stuck in the past. Written holy books are probably partly to blame.

Beyond the question of how religion arose, there is the question of why it persists? Probably because most people are not driven by logic and reason, but by emotion and attachments. Their reasoning is mostly the conjuring up of justifications for what they feel; a very human trait but one that makes them immune to rationality.

Good points. I suppose it is far too much for most people to realize that there is no spirits or heaven and that the dead persons biological machinery just died and that their consciousness no longer exists.

[Amichai Řezník]

I don't think that our questions today are that much different from ancient people. Sure we've developed physics and our understanding of the universe but the main questions are still there.

[MrHappy]

There's an interesting apparatus known as the 'god helmet' that can invoke a religious experience in completely non-religious people by means of electromagnetic fields.
http://en.m.wikipedi...wiki/God_helmet

It was experienced and written about by Lone Frank, in her book 'The Neurotourist.'

This and other related experiments suggest that our brain has in-built programming to facilitate a need for religious belief. That creates more questions than answers.

The first one is, 'Why are we programmed to believe in a deity?'

[xEva]

I side with Mr.Happy. The rest of you guys sound as if you've never been truly high. Cause that's when us atheists come to believe in Glorious God. It's when the world around us is alive and each twig, leaf and pebble is talking. And the beauty of it all is overwhelming. Or when you come out and suddenly see the Sun and, pierced with its light to the core, realize that it too is watching you and smiling at you. Just get out of your calculators ..uh I meant your heads and dare to smell the roses

[platypus]

I side with Mr.Happy. The rest of you guys sound as if you've never been truly high. Cause that's when us atheists come to believe in Glorious God. It's when the world around us is alive and each twig, leaf and pebble is talking. And the beauty of it all is overwhelming. Or when you come out and suddenly see the Sun and, pierced with its light to the core, realize that it too is watching you and smiling at you. Just get out of your calculators ..uh I meant your heads and dare to smell the roses

I know the feeling but I don't think it "proves" anything.

[platypus]

There's an interesting apparatus known as the 'god helmet' that can invoke a religious experience in completely non-religious people by means of electromagnetic fields.
http://en.m.wikipedi...wiki/God_helmet

It was experienced and written about by Lone Frank, in her book 'The Neurotourist.'

This and other related experiments suggest that our brain has in-built programming to facilitate a need for religious belief. That creates more questions than answers.

The first one is, 'Why are we programmed to believe in a deity?'

Well, our brains have an apparatus that enables it to simulate other people and present them to us for example in dreams. It seems "natural" to me to believe that for example mountains are deities/spirits, so perhaps this apparatus is just a tad overactive in humans and goes and projects these "sensed presences" all over the place?

[idquest]

One has to distinguish between rituals, anthropomorphic religions, and idea of emptiness begetting everything that is in the root of eastern phylosophy (not so much of religion btw).
Most of what we see in churches, mosques, and sinagoges are rituals that have nothing to do with spirituality and religion.
Anthropomorphic religions have a flaw of simplifying complex ideas to cater ancient nomads and tribes. Nobody knows how abrahamic religions came into existence; some say that in their roots they had deep spiritual base not unlike eastern religions do, the roots that were lost with the same reason, they were not in demand by ruling elites.
Idea of emptiness is truly a deep one. It is strange how scientific folks here discard the idea, it is so close to what modern physics is approaching to.

[MrHappy]

There's an interesting apparatus known as the 'god helmet' that can invoke a religious experience in completely non-religious people by means of electromagnetic fields.
http://en.m.wikipedi...wiki/God_helmet

It was experienced and written about by Lone Frank, in her book 'The Neurotourist.'

This and other related experiments suggest that our brain has in-built programming to facilitate a need for religious belief. That creates more questions than answers.

The first one is, 'Why are we programmed to believe in a deity?'

Well, our brains have an apparatus that enables it to simulate other people and present them to us for example in dreams. It seems "natural" to me to believe that for example mountains are deities/spirits, so perhaps this apparatus is just a tad overactive in humans and goes and projects these "sensed presences" all over the place?

The interesting part is that it is the same waveform / magnetic fields required for all humans. There is specific 'circuitry' in the brain to make this happen - it's not a learned response.

[Adaptogen]

There is some interesting evidence illustrating that the origins of religion, and the basis of the spiritual state, may be from drug induced delusions

http://www.botany.ha...135/Lect20b.htm Mushrooms and religion
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3050654/ Psilocybin and the mystical experience
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3190564/ Neurobiology of spirituality

[johnross47]

This brain centre might be interesting from a religious point of view if you could demonstrate that it had no other purpose beyond providing an experience of the divine. Unlikely.

As for the sense of wonder.....I don't need to be high to experience it. I am however a trained artist and have spent most of my life pursuing the wonderful. I can also get very high on running down a mountain or hitting a gust of wind just right in a racing dingy or in hundreds of other ways, none of which prove the existence of any kind of deity, or even suggest it.

[sthira]

There is some interesting evidence illustrating that the origins of religion, and the basis of the spiritual state, may be from drug induced delusions

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3050654/ Psilocybin and the mystical experience

Thank you for this; this was fascinating!

[rwac]

People need something bigger than themselves to believe in. God (also patriotism, environmentalism etc etc) fills this niche nicely.

Why do people need something bigger then themselves to believe in? Why not just believe in themselves?

It's pretty normal to search for meaning in life, once the basic needs are met.

[shadowhawk]

Asking how did people create God is like asking how anything is created in our mind. We create almost everything, including our fanatics, out of things that are really there, We see wings and even in our wildest dreams of made up creatures with wings, its reality rests on something that is really there. We can’t think of anything that does not have an underlying real reality.

We create God because God is real even if we get it wrong. Pascal tried to point to this Greater than all. Your brain does not create the cosmos, only perceives it. The same is for God and that is why the vast majority of brains believe in Him.

So God was not created by us, only perceived. To get what we know of God right is up to Him. We are not without clues.

[maxwatt]

A well-known mycologistof my acquaintance holds with the magic mushroom theory: ingestion of psychedelic substances led to visions and religious experience. But the mushrooms are not necessary. Fasting, whether voluntary or forced, an intense experiences such as escaping the claws of a cave bear, or the fangs of a large snake, or the spears of other hominids, can lead to a similar experience, sensing an ontic manifestation. WRT the "god helmet", the human brain does seem to be wired for such perceptions. It is known that electrical stimulation of a particular brain region will result in an out of body experience, the patient experiences himself as hovering in the air above the operation table. Lesions in a particular part of the temporal lobe can make a person profoundly religious and bservant -- remove the lesions, as has been done for epileptics, and you get a normal person who will profanely drink and swear.

Mushroom visions

KNOW YOUR MUSHROOMs The section dealing with hallucinogens and religious experience is about an hour into the film, but they make you watch adds before you can see it.

Edited by maxwatt, 26 March 2013 - 03:02 AM.

[shadowhawk]

A well-known mycologistof my acquaintance holds with the magic mushroom theory: ingestion of psychedelic substances led to visions and religious experience. But the mushrooms are not necessary. Fasting, whether voluntary or forced, an intense experiences such as escaping the claws of a cave bear, or the fangs of a large snake, or the spears of other hominids, can lead to a similar experience, sensing an ontic manifestation. WRT the "god helmet", the human brain does seem to be wired for such perceptions. It is known that electrical stimulation of a particular brain region will result in an out of body experience, the patient experiences himself as hovering in the air above the operation table. Lesions in a particular part of the temporal lobe can make a person profoundly religious and bservant -- remove the lesions, as has been done for epileptics, and you get a normal person who will profanely drink and swear.

Mushroom visions

KNOW YOUR MUSHROOMs The section dealing with hallucinogens and religious experience is about an hour into the film, but they make you watch adds before you can see it.

I watched the videos you suggested above and explored the web site but found nothing that suggests drugs are the reason the vast majority of humans think of God.. The vast majority of the religious I am aware of do not condone the use of drugs. I have been around drug users all my life and for a time had a coffee house in Height Ashbury but saw little enlightenment and a lot of destruction

I know, I have friends who wrote, “The Road to Eleusis” and read every book Carlos Castaneda ever wrote. I am a friend of the anthropologist Huston Smith. All of them proponents of drugs and religious experience. I can tell you knowing God for the vast majority does not involve drugs.

So what of religious experience on drugs. You can have them and I have seen it first hand from mushrooms to LSD. You can find God but more often find the demonic. As with most of life, it is not spiritually nurtural.

[Adaptogen]

You say that amongst drug users you've seen a lot of destruction, but has not organized religion's main result throughout history been either collecting money or persecution?

Carlos Castaneda is thought by many to be a fraud. Yesterday I actually read through most of The Teachings of Don Juan, and although it was interesting, I found it to be less than substantial.

Modern religious practices is a very different creature from the origins of religion and the spiritual experience. Nobody thinks of god, certainly not the vast majority of humans. we are all taught him. However, thousands of years ago, god may have been thought up because of drugs, near death experience, or fearful philosophizing.

Edited by Adaptogen, 27 March 2013 - 12:48 AM.

[shadowhawk]

You say that amongst drug users you've seen a lot of destruction, but has not organized religion's main result throughout history been either collecting money or persecution?

Carlos Castaneda is thought by many to be a fraud. Yesterday I actually read through most of The Teachings of Don Juan, and although it was interesting, I found it to be less than substantial.

Modern religious practices is a very different creature from the origins of religion and the spiritual experience. Nobody thinks of god, certainly not the vast majority of humans. we are all taught him. However, thousands of years ago, god may have been thought up because of drugs, near death experience, or fearful philosophizing.

Your first statement is serious I guess. How can you not know anything about religion.

Castaneda was a fraud but one who advocated using drugs to find God. My point.

If it is so obvious, why is there something rather than nothing? Is the answer so obvious that you think anyone who believes in god does so because of drugs? Or were they indoctrinated by those people? Perhaps someone looked at the heavens and said, “My God!” I would even include the things you brought up as sources of this wonderment.

[Droplet]

Your theory cuts both ways. Do you understand how the world came into being. Tell me. I expect an agnostic response. You are a friend and I enjoy your posts.

Well to put it simply I believe in scientific concepts, as the evidence points overwhelmingly to those. However I would not rule out that the world was perhaps helped along by a greater and more intelligent force. The only thing I cannot believe in is a God who is perfect AND caring. I am actually ex-Christian and cannot believe in the Judeo-Christian concept of god personally. However I keep an open mind about the existence of a creating force that we could perhaps call god. We may one day find conclusively that all of this was just a load of conincidences and there is indeed nothing out there creating. However we may find out one day that there is. I keep an open mind and just try to lead a life that doesn't hurt anyone else. Hope that makes sense.

Edited by Droplet, 28 March 2013 - 07:04 AM.

[shadowhawk]

Your theory cuts both ways. Do you understand how the world came into being. Tell me. I expect an agnostic response. You are a friend and I enjoy your posts.

Well to put it simply I believe in scientific concepts, as the evidence points overwhelmingly to those. However I would not rule out that the world was perhaps helped along by a greater and more intelligent force. The only thing I cannot believe in is a God who is perfect AND caring. I am actually ex-Christian and cannot believe in the Judeo-Christian concept of god personally. However I keep an open mind about the existence of a creating force that we could perhaps call god. We may one day find conclusively that all of this was just a load of conincidences and there is indeed nothing out there creating. However we may find out one day that there is. I keep an open mind and just try to lead a life that doesn't hurt anyone else. Hope that makes sense.

I don’t want to get off topic but science is limited and is not capable of addressing questions such as I asked in my last post. And how did Science prove Science is the only way to truth? What evidence?

You do make sense and though I am a Christian I respect your quest. I was raised an atheist and have had and continue to have a journey with questions such as yours. I like your open spirit. Drugs did not bring me to God, but a questioning spirit did.

[Mr Serendipity]

Because God interacted with humans and performed miracles, and then they wrote down his Word.

Edited by manny, 29 March 2013 - 11:24 PM.

[Mr Serendipity]

Well to put it simply I believe in scientific concepts, as the evidence points overwhelmingly to those. However I would not rule out that the world was perhaps helped along by a greater and more intelligent force. The only thing I cannot believe in is a God who is perfect AND caring. I am actually ex-Christian and cannot believe in the Judeo-Christian concept of god personally. However I keep an open mind about the existence of a creating force that we could perhaps call god. We may one day find conclusively that all of this was just a load of conincidences and there is indeed nothing out there creating. However we may find out one day that there is. I keep an open mind and just try to lead a life that doesn't hurt anyone else. Hope that makes sense.

There's no such thing as an ex-christian, only people who claim to be christian but have never truely believed the gospel. When you truely believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you can't then not believe the truth. You just never truely believed it in the first place. "Once saved, always saved", or a better term is "IF saved, always saved" which is backed up in scripture quite clearly.

It's not a problem, it doesn't mean you are banned from being saved. But once you're saved, your a new person as the Holy Spirit rests within you, and even though you might try to run away from the faith, you can never truely leave it because God (Holy Spirit) cannot deny himself (unless you weren't saved in the first place and don't have the Holy Spirit in you).

2 Timothy 2:13 - If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Edited by manny, 29 March 2013 - 11:38 PM.