62 replies to this topic

[johnross47]

Well to put it simply I believe in scientific concepts, as the evidence points overwhelmingly to those. However I would not rule out that the world was perhaps helped along by a greater and more intelligent force. The only thing I cannot believe in is a God who is perfect AND caring. I am actually ex-Christian and cannot believe in the Judeo-Christian concept of god personally. However I keep an open mind about the existence of a creating force that we could perhaps call god. We may one day find conclusively that all of this was just a load of conincidences and there is indeed nothing out there creating. However we may find out one day that there is. I keep an open mind and just try to lead a life that doesn't hurt anyone else. Hope that makes sense.

There's no such thing as an ex-christian, only people who claim to be christian but have never truely believed the gospel. When you truely believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you can't then not believe the truth. You just never truely believed it in the first place. "Once saved, always saved", or a better term is "IF saved, always saved" which is backed up in scripture quite clearly.

It's not a problem, it doesn't mean you are banned from being saved. But once you're saved, your a new person as the Holy Spirit rests within you, and even though you might try to run away from the faith, you can never truely leave it because God (Holy Spirit) cannot deny himself (unless you weren't saved in the first place and don't have the Holy Spirit in you).

2 Timothy 2:13 - If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

As the believers here never tire of asking, can you produce any evidence at all to support any of these claims? Please don't just quote from some holy book; I would then just ask you to provide justification for it and that would lead into a tedious endless regression.

[Mr Serendipity]

The book is the inspired word of God. If anyone knows how things work, it's God.

I neither want a tedious endless regression.

Edited by manny, 31 March 2013 - 08:59 PM.

[MrHappy]

The book is the inspired word of God. If anyone knows how things work, it's God.

I neither want a tedious endless regression.

Mmm.. the Book. Without wanting to start another flame war - too many errors, edits, removals, faulty information and mutually exclusive statements for it to be called the word of God.

As it stands, currently, we could only describe it as the work of Man/Men.

I liked some of the messages in the New Testament, but I've also learnt some wonderful lessons from many authors. I particularly like Terry Pratchett.

[Droplet]

As the believers here never tire of asking, can you produce any evidence at all to support any of these claims? Please don't just quote from some holy book; I would then just ask you to provide justification for it and that would lead into a tedious endless regression.

This is one of the problems I have with organised religion. Even if God had inspired it, the book was still written by fallible humans. Sure it is good to have the beliefs you follow written down/have guidelines but I don't feel that a book alone can prove anything. That being said the Bible has some great stories in it. I still do not rule out the ideas of a creating and intelligent force even if I don't follow any book.

I don’t want to get off topic but science is limited and is not capable of addressing questions such as I asked in my last post. And how did Science prove Science is the only way to truth? What evidence?

You do make sense and though I am a Christian I respect your quest. I was raised an atheist and have had and continue to have a journey with questions such as yours. I like your open spirit. Drugs did not bring me to God, but a questioning spirit did.

I was sort of raised Christian despite my dad being atheist. He wouldn't have anything to do with my Christening and in a way I respect him for standing up for what he believed in even though Im agnostic. I have never done drugs and it doesnt appeal to me even if I'm okay with other people being high.

As for science, the basics of science can be proved in a lab. Religion can be neither fully proved nor disproved. Its nice to know that you respect my quest...if all belief systems just tolerated one another despite disagreement the world would be a lot better.

Edited by Droplet, 01 April 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[Mr Serendipity]

I have to disagree here, there are 1000's of mathematical improbabilities in the Bible that more or less prove God must have inspired it.

For example what are the chances "Son of Man" and "Jesus Christ" both occur 196 times! They are both refereing to Jesus Christ, Son of Man was another name for him. And yet the Bible was written by 40 different authors and these two phrases occur the exact same amount of times! How is that possible?

196 is 7 x 28 and in the Bible the number 7 is a holy number, it represents completeness and spiritual perfection.

There's also:

children of Isreal - 644 occurances (7x92)
God of Israel - 203 occurances (7x29)
Son of Man - 196 occurances (7x28)
Jesus Christ - 196 occurances (7x28)
in Christ - 77 occurances (7x11)
church - 77 occurances (7x11)
it is written - 63 occurances in the new testament (7x9)
Most High - 49 occurances (7x7)
Word of God - 49 occurances (7x7)
assembly - 49 occurances (7x7)
witnesses - 49 occurances (7x7)
breath (form of Spirit) - 42 occurances (7x6)
bride - 14 occurances (7x2)
thunders (God's voice) - 7 occurances
Holy Spirit - 7 occurances
husbandman - 7 occurances
fishers (as fishers of men) - 7 occurances
peculiar (a parish or church exempt from the jurisdiction) - 7 occurances
daughter of jerusalem - 7 occurances
kinsmen - 7 occurances
worshippers - 7 occurances
workmanship - 7 occurances
daughters of jerusalem - 7 occurances in old testament
thy word - 7 occurances in the new testament
"Jesus" in the same verse as "church" - 7 occurances

Yet the Bible was written by 40 different authors! What are the chances hey that so many Holy words and phrases in the bible come in sevens, these are not mere coincidences.

Also this is using an uncorrupt King James Bible, all other english Bibles have been corrupted and won't produce the same results, nor will corrupted King James versions.

I just spent the last hour checking these out for myself, so be assured they are all in there. You can do it yourself if you like: http://purebiblesearch.com/

And 7 isn't the only number that has significance. I'll let you do the research as it's too of an exhuastive topic to discuss on this forum.

Edited by manny, 01 April 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[johnross47]

what are the chances that the same coincidences would occur in the other languages it was written in? If you take a large random sample of anything you'll find coincidences

Edited by johnross47, 01 April 2013 - 07:20 PM.

[Mr Serendipity]

These aren't coincidences. Instead of trying to prove this wrong with your biased opinion, why don't you try and prove it wrong with something tangible. Try and find these so called "coincidences" in the Quaran, Bhagavad Gita, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, the Dictionary, or some big paged collection of books like the Encylopaedia Britannica.

Then see if there are phrases and words in that book which all have a similar meaning, a similar theme, and occur in a pattern (such as the examples I used for Holy/completeness/spiritual perfection had a pattern of 7's).

I've done my part with the Bible. Why don't you prove me wrong yourself using your own advice.

If you take a large random sample of anything you'll find coincidences

And show me these "coincidences" in other books.

Edited by manny, 01 April 2013 - 08:43 PM.

[MrHappy]

I have to disagree here, there are 1000's of mathematical improbabilities in the Bible that more or less prove God must have inspired it.

For example what are the chances "Son of Man" and "Jesus Christ" both occur 196 times! They are both refereing to Jesus Christ, Son of Man was another name for him. And yet the Bible was written by 40 different authors and these two phrases occur the exact same amount of times! How is that possible?

196 is 7 x 28 and in the Bible the number 7 is a holy number, it represents completeness and spiritual perfection.

There's also:

children of Isreal - 644 occurances (7x92)
God of Israel - 203 occurances (7x29)
Son of Man - 196 occurances (7x28)
Jesus Christ - 196 occurances (7x28)
in Christ - 77 occurances (7x11)
church - 77 occurances (7x11)
it is written - 63 occurances in the new testament (7x9)
Most High - 49 occurances (7x7)
Word of God - 49 occurances (7x7)
assembly - 49 occurances (7x7)
witnesses - 49 occurances (7x7)
breath (form of Spirit) - 42 occurances (7x6)
bride - 14 occurances (7x2)
thunders (God's voice) - 7 occurances
Holy Spirit - 7 occurances
husbandman - 7 occurances
fishers (as fishers of men) - 7 occurances
peculiar (a parish or church exempt from the jurisdiction) - 7 occurances
daughter of jerusalem - 7 occurances
kinsmen - 7 occurances
worshippers - 7 occurances
workmanship - 7 occurances
daughters of jerusalem - 7 occurances in old testament
thy word - 7 occurances in the new testament
"Jesus" in the same verse as "church" - 7 occurances

Yet the Bible was written by 40 different authors! What are the chances hey that so many Holy words and phrases in the bible come in sevens, these are not mere coincidences.

Also this is using an uncorrupt King James Bible, all other english Bibles have been corrupted and won't produce the same results, nor will corrupted King James versions.

I just spent the last hour checking these out for myself, so be assured they are all in there. You can do it yourself if you like: http://purebiblesearch.com/

And 7 isn't the only number that has significance. I'll let you do the research as it's too of an exhuastive topic to discuss on this forum.

Is this in the version that includes the apocrypha books that were removed later on?
http://www.kingjames...pocrypha-Books/

[Mr Serendipity]

No. The apocrypha books are not cannon.

Use the software I gave the link to. A lot of publishers tamper with the KJV, so finding a decent one is difficult. Some publishers replace words, some seem to change the capitilization. You can see the differences here: http://www.bibleprot...om/editions.htm

However that Bible software was only released a couple of weeks ago. I previously used foxit reader on Windows with a PDF of the Pure Cambridge Edition KJV Bible, but had to edit the PDF to get rid of the title pages and only leave the books, and I was finding these same patterns.

[Mr Serendipity]

Here are some other Bible patterns I wasn't aware of which I'm reading from the software's help file:

1.
Revelation 13:18 says “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” Chapter 666 of the Bible is Ecclesiastes 7. And Ecclesiastes 7:27 says “Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:”

To understand what he's saying we have to look 2 verses back Ecc 7:25 "I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:" - And then in Ecc 7:27 he says he finds it by counting. This is in the 666 chapter of the Bible, and revelation tells us to count the number of the beast which is 666. You can't make this stuff up people! I typed in "count" and "number" to see how many verses have both these words in, and it's only 4! So 1 of those verses is Revelation, which has the number 666 in, and another one of those verses is in the 666 chapter of the Bible!

2.
Daniel, the 27th book of the Old Testament is “sealed”. Revelation, the 27th book of the New Testament is “unsealed”.

3.
“Christ” appears 555 times
“baptiz*” (words beginning with “baptiz”) appears 77 times
“spirit” (all lowercase) appears 333 times

God is a mathematician! Sir Isaac Newton believed everything he discovered just proved there was a divine intelligence, and I hold this genius of a scientist to the highest esteem compared any other.

Edited by manny, 01 April 2013 - 09:57 PM.

[thebauce]

I have to disagree here, there are 1000's of mathematical improbabilities in the Bible that more or less prove God must have inspired it.

For example what are the chances "Son of Man" and "Jesus Christ" both occur 196 times! They are both refereing to Jesus Christ, Son of Man was another name for him. And yet the Bible was written by 40 different authors and these two phrases occur the exact same amount of times! How is that possible?

196 is 7 x 28 and in the Bible the number 7 is a holy number, it represents completeness and spiritual perfection.

There's also:

children of Isreal - 644 occurances (7x92)
God of Israel - 203 occurances (7x29)
Son of Man - 196 occurances (7x28)
Jesus Christ - 196 occurances (7x28)
in Christ - 77 occurances (7x11)
church - 77 occurances (7x11)
it is written - 63 occurances in the new testament (7x9)
Most High - 49 occurances (7x7)
Word of God - 49 occurances (7x7)
assembly - 49 occurances (7x7)
witnesses - 49 occurances (7x7)
breath (form of Spirit) - 42 occurances (7x6)
bride - 14 occurances (7x2)
thunders (God's voice) - 7 occurances
Holy Spirit - 7 occurances
husbandman - 7 occurances
fishers (as fishers of men) - 7 occurances
peculiar (a parish or church exempt from the jurisdiction) - 7 occurances
daughter of jerusalem - 7 occurances
kinsmen - 7 occurances
worshippers - 7 occurances
workmanship - 7 occurances
daughters of jerusalem - 7 occurances in old testament
thy word - 7 occurances in the new testament
"Jesus" in the same verse as "church" - 7 occurances

Yet the Bible was written by 40 different authors! What are the chances hey that so many Holy words and phrases in the bible come in sevens, these are not mere coincidences.

Also this is using an uncorrupt King James Bible, all other english Bibles have been corrupted and won't produce the same results, nor will corrupted King James versions.

I just spent the last hour checking these out for myself, so be assured they are all in there. You can do it yourself if you like: http://purebiblesearch.com/

And 7 isn't the only number that has significance. I'll let you do the research as it's too of an exhuastive topic to discuss on this forum.

proponents of the qu'ran make the same claims, using this same faulty numerology (I would say to an even greater/more convincing degree). Muslims claim that Christians go to hell, Christians claim that muslims go to hell

http://miraclesofthe....com/index2.php

too many people claiming they have the "truth", when they don't. The real "truth" is that we are currently present in an absurd existence, and any attempt to explain it will end in futility/contradictions; the best we can do is embrace this absurdity and live our lives in the present moment. Thinking too much about our existence and the meaning of life will drive one insane, which is why I believe religion exists, as an attempt to rationalize the irrational.

[thebauce]

These aren't coincidences. Instead of trying to prove this wrong with your biased opinion, why don't you try and prove it wrong with something tangible. Try and find these so called "coincidences" in the Quaran, Bhagavad Gita, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, the Dictionary, or some big paged collection of books like the Encylopaedia Britannica.

Then see if there are phrases and words in that book which all have a similar meaning, a similar theme, and occur in a pattern (such as the examples I used for Holy/completeness/spiritual perfection had a pattern of 7's).

I've done my part with the Bible. Why don't you prove me wrong yourself using your own advice.

If you take a large random sample of anything you'll find coincidences

And show me these "coincidences" in other books.

http://intelligent-f...y-in-quran.html
http://www.miracleso...matical_02.html
http://roohaani.com/numerology-quran/
http://monotheismheb...r-a-numerology/

there's literally thousands upon thousands of results that arise from a simple google of "quran and numerology".

You still want to remain ignorant/delusional? Numerology/coincidences are not a very convincing way of proving the word of "god"

p.s. here's a good video that debunks these "coincidences" proposed by both Christians and Muslims, by applying this method of numerology to Moby Dick:

[shadowhawk]

Thebuace: To many people claiming they have the "truth", when they don't. The real "truth" is that we are currently present in an absurd existence, and any attempt to explain it will end in futility/contradictions; the best we can do is embrace this absurdity and live our lives in the present moment. Thinking too much about our existence and the meaning of life will drive one insane, which is why I believe religion exists, as an attempt to rationalize the irrational.

Is this the real truth? Sounds self defeating. Have you thought about this? How much? How do you know? Do you uae reason when judging religion, “irrational?”

[shadowhawk]

These aren't coincidences. Instead of trying to prove this wrong with your biased opinion, why don't you try and prove it wrong with something tangible. Try and find these so called "coincidences" in the Quaran, Bhagavad Gita, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, the Dictionary, or some big paged collection of books like the Encylopaedia Britannica.

Then see if there are phrases and words in that book which all have a similar meaning, a similar theme, and occur in a pattern (such as the examples I used for Holy/completeness/spiritual perfection had a pattern of 7's).

I've done my part with the Bible. Why don't you prove me wrong yourself using your own advice.

If you take a large random sample of anything you'll find coincidences

And show me these "coincidences" in other books.

http://intelligent-f...y-in-quran.html
http://www.miracleso...matical_02.html
http://roohaani.com/numerology-quran/
http://monotheismheb...r-a-numerology/

there's literally thousands upon thousands of results that arise from a simple google of "quran and numerology".

You still want to remain ignorant/delusional? Numerology/coincidences are not a very convincing way of proving the word of "god"

p.s. here's a good video that debunks these "coincidences" proposed by both Christians and Muslims, by applying this method of numerology to Moby Dick:
https://www.youtube....h?v=ojVn4Rgl8E8

What you have shown is the problem with Islamic Numerology. It has nothing to do with Miracles, in the Christian Bible or why people think about religion.. I don’t believe in such numerology either but reject your overstated criticism. You are not talking about Christianity. Plus it s off topic.

Edited by shadowhawk, 19 April 2013 - 11:59 PM.

[thebauce]

These aren't coincidences. Instead of trying to prove this wrong with your biased opinion, why don't you try and prove it wrong with something tangible. Try and find these so called "coincidences" in the Quaran, Bhagavad Gita, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, the Dictionary, or some big paged collection of books like the Encylopaedia Britannica.

Then see if there are phrases and words in that book which all have a similar meaning, a similar theme, and occur in a pattern (such as the examples I used for Holy/completeness/spiritual perfection had a pattern of 7's).

I've done my part with the Bible. Why don't you prove me wrong yourself using your own advice.

If you take a large random sample of anything you'll find coincidences

And show me these "coincidences" in other books.

http://intelligent-f...y-in-quran.html
http://www.miracleso...matical_02.html
http://roohaani.com/numerology-quran/
http://monotheismheb...r-a-numerology/

there's literally thousands upon thousands of results that arise from a simple google of "quran and numerology".

You still want to remain ignorant/delusional? Numerology/coincidences are not a very convincing way of proving the word of "god"

p.s. here's a good video that debunks these "coincidences" proposed by both Christians and Muslims, by applying this method of numerology to Moby Dick:
https://www.youtube....h?v=ojVn4Rgl8E8

What you have shown is the problem with Islamic Numerology. It has nothing to do with Miracles, in the Christian Bible or why people think about religion.. I don’t believe in such numerology either but reject your overstated criticism. You are not talking about Christianity. Plus it s off topic.

please read the post that I was quoting/replying to, the original poster claimed that the "coincidences" he presented (by way of numerology) were exclusive to the Bible and even challenged other members to find such coincidences in the Qu'ran or some other book thus I presented what seems to be an extensive accumulation of Islamic numerology and even a video that finds such "coincidences" in Moby Dick. Numerology cannot be postulated as legitimate proof on the credibility of such holy books, it's just mind tricks and nit-picking.


in regards to Christian "miracles", I find the Qu'ranic "miracles" more convincing. Take a look at this site, it claims the qu'ran predicted the Big Bang, elliptical orbits, the speed of light, the gravitational force, the expansion of the universe, the sun's trajectory, the development of human organs, perfectly composed literature to the point of impossible reproduction of such mastery, backing by archaeological evidence present in sites mentioned by the book, atomic energy, air planes, the voyage to the moon, and many, many more.

what are the Christian "miracles"? anecdotes of Jesus preforming divine feats that are more than likely fictitious events.
How do you explain this?

http://miraclesofthe....com/index2.php

Edited by thebauce, 20 April 2013 - 07:27 AM.

[thebauce]

Thebuace: To many people claiming they have the "truth", when they don't. The real "truth" is that we are currently present in an absurd existence, and any attempt to explain it will end in futility/contradictions; the best we can do is embrace this absurdity and live our lives in the present moment. Thinking too much about our existence and the meaning of life will drive one insane, which is why I believe religion exists, as an attempt to rationalize the irrational.

Is this the real truth? Sounds self defeating. Have you thought about this? How much? How do you know? Do you uae reason when judging religion, “irrational?”

I don't adhere to a solidified belief, as I like to think of my philosophy as quite malleable, but no one can claim that any specific truth is absolute, hence why I put the word,"truth", in quotations. As a child, I was reared by Muslim parents but never really called myself religious at any point in my life, and I never claimed that religion is "irrational", I only claimed that it was an attempt to rationalize the irrational so humans do not have to think about it or otherwise gives them the ability to attribute some cosmic/divine force to the universe. As a matter of fact, religion has offered my father solstice from many hardships in his life as it has to many other humans, and I appreciate that fact; religion is a great way to keep humans sane in an otherwise insane existence. Nothing around us makes sense if thought about for a good while, thus naturally, because of our intelligence, we devise methods in an attempt to explain this in a way so that we don't lose site of existence (from Zeus, to Siva, to Osiris, and to the Abrahamic God) . I personally believe our origins and how the universe came to be are to a far more absurd degree than we currently attribute them to be, so absurd that we cannot even fathom the concept (think how the world's smartest people barely grasp the most insane topics in the realm of theoretical physics, and this is the limit that our collective intelligence leads us to; in fact, some of these topics are so complicated that it is next to impossible to devise an undergraduate collegiate education plan that introduces them to average scholars, much less the general population).

To say our existence isn't absurd is denying observation, and when you boil down the main function of religion, it serves as a mechanism for inspiring delusion, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

[Lister]

You know, aside from all the numerology attempting to prove the bible right nonsense, there is a larger theory at work here.

Doesn’t everyone have a God or higher power they believe in?

I believe in a universal balance for example. Someone else may believe in the overwhelming power of logic and science. And someone else may believe in the sheer overpowering beauty of nature.

If a primitive people viewed the universe in a state of perpetual balance for example, they may not understand it. They may think that as they create balance in their home another person must be enacting balance on a larger scale (God). You all have to remember that the rains, the sun going up and down, the moon, and the stars are all things that were complete mysteries to people not that long ago. Even seeing a solar eclipse for the first time could be the spark that started religion as a whole.

I betcha given enough time, I could come up with a universal theory that proves all religions and non-religion’s right. Obviously some of the more critical elements would need to be trimmed away like one religion being wrong over another… but… I bet it could work!

In the end don’t you all believe in a higher power? Science? Logic? Math? Balance? Karma? God? Allah? Nature? Love? To me it’s all kind of the same thing…

[shadowhawk]

Thebuace: To many people claiming they have the "truth", when they don't. The real "truth" is that we are currently present in an absurd existence, and any attempt to explain it will end in futility/contradictions; the best we can do is embrace this absurdity and live our lives in the present moment. Thinking too much about our existence and the meaning of life will drive one insane, which is why I believe religion exists, as an attempt to rationalize the irrational.

Is this the real truth? Sounds self defeating. Have you thought about this? How much? How do you know? Do you uae reason when judging religion, “irrational?”

I don't adhere to a solidified belief, as I like to think of my philosophy as quite malleable, but no one can claim that any specific truth is absolute, hence why I put the word,"truth", in quotations. As a child, I was reared by Muslim parents but never really called myself religious at any point in my life, and I never claimed that religion is "irrational", I only claimed that it was an attempt to rationalize the irrational so humans do not have to think about it or otherwise gives them the ability to attribute some cosmic/divine force to the universe. As a matter of fact, religion has offered my father solstice from many hardships in his life as it has to many other humans, and I appreciate that fact; religion is a great way to keep humans sane in an otherwise insane existence. Nothing around us makes sense if thought about for a good while, thus naturally, because of our intelligence, we devise methods in an attempt to explain this in a way so that we don't lose site of existence (from Zeus, to Siva, to Osiris, and to the Abrahamic God) . I personally believe our origins and how the universe came to be are to a far more absurd degree than we currently attribute them to be, so absurd that we cannot even fathom the concept (think how the world's smartest people barely grasp the most insane topics in the realm of theoretical physics, and this is the limit that our collective intelligence leads us to; in fact, some of these topics are so complicated that it is next to impossible to devise an undergraduate collegiate education plan that introduces them to average scholars, much less the general population).

To say our existence isn't absurd is denying observation, and when you boil down the main function of religion, it serves as a mechanism for inspiring delusion, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Sense you have no “Truth,“ no use discussing what ever it is. (Malleable) I would be off topic to comment on Islam, so I won’t. You seem to be a skeptic about everything but your skepticism. You are not skeptic of your observations. If someone looked at you, would they conclude “delusional,” or is that charitable observation limited for the religious???

Sounds like you had a honorable, and good, Muslim father.

Edited by shadowhawk, 20 April 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[thebauce]

Thebuace: To many people claiming they have the "truth", when they don't. The real "truth" is that we are currently present in an absurd existence, and any attempt to explain it will end in futility/contradictions; the best we can do is embrace this absurdity and live our lives in the present moment. Thinking too much about our existence and the meaning of life will drive one insane, which is why I believe religion exists, as an attempt to rationalize the irrational.

Is this the real truth? Sounds self defeating. Have you thought about this? How much? How do you know? Do you uae reason when judging religion, “irrational?”

I don't adhere to a solidified belief, as I like to think of my philosophy as quite malleable, but no one can claim that any specific truth is absolute, hence why I put the word,"truth", in quotations. As a child, I was reared by Muslim parents but never really called myself religious at any point in my life, and I never claimed that religion is "irrational", I only claimed that it was an attempt to rationalize the irrational so humans do not have to think about it or otherwise gives them the ability to attribute some cosmic/divine force to the universe. As a matter of fact, religion has offered my father solstice from many hardships in his life as it has to many other humans, and I appreciate that fact; religion is a great way to keep humans sane in an otherwise insane existence. Nothing around us makes sense if thought about for a good while, thus naturally, because of our intelligence, we devise methods in an attempt to explain this in a way so that we don't lose site of existence (from Zeus, to Siva, to Osiris, and to the Abrahamic God) . I personally believe our origins and how the universe came to be are to a far more absurd degree than we currently attribute them to be, so absurd that we cannot even fathom the concept (think how the world's smartest people barely grasp the most insane topics in the realm of theoretical physics, and this is the limit that our collective intelligence leads us to; in fact, some of these topics are so complicated that it is next to impossible to devise an undergraduate collegiate education plan that introduces them to average scholars, much less the general population).

To say our existence isn't absurd is denying observation, and when you boil down the main function of religion, it serves as a mechanism for inspiring delusion, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Sense you have no “Truth,“ no use discussing what ever it is. (Malleable) I would be off topic to comment on Islam, so I won’t. You seem to be a skeptic about everything but your skepticism. You are not skeptic of your observations. If someone looked at you, would they conclude “delusional,” or is that charitable observation limited for the religious???

Sounds like you had a honorable, and good, Muslim father.

discussing "truths' is quite fallacious in its own manner, as the very definition of truth according to Dictionary.com, lies within these boundaries:

truth
[trooth]

noun, plural truths [troothz, trooths]
1.
the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2.
conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3.
a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4.
the state or character of being true.
5.
actuality or actual existence.


how could any multiple persons claim this state of being in accordance to the answers of life's who, what, where, and why? with each of these "truths" presenting contradicting information in regards to natural observation (the clashes between science/religion), the ridiculousness of the doctrine containing the "truth"(look up "skeptic's annoted bible" or just reflect upon the fact that the Bible contains such stories where 40 children are murdered by "god" due to a comment on some bald guy's lack of hair or the story where Jesus kills a fig tree because it is not producing to his expectations), as well as the inability to coherently agree upon what the "truth" is trying to communicate to people (hence all these sects and different religions).

I don't believe I would be looked upon by delusion because if anybody steps back for a minute, and objectively analyzes their surrounding, they will realize how asinine this entire existence really is. Here we are, a group of higher-evolved primates, who because of our intelligence, displace ourselves from our natural state of existence and even view ourselves with higher worth than the entire natural kingdom. Our intelligence has led us to a point where, right at this moment, as you're reading this sentence that I typed up sometime in your past using an array of electronic devices that I'm not quite sure how they function, you are transcribing my "words" (what are "words", really? a series of whistling noises produced as a result of various strains on the throat muscle, no?) in your mind you are receiving my thoughts in a sort of pseudo-telepathy.

Where are you right now? in your "house" or at "work"? what is a "house" and what is the significance of "work"? why do we ascribe such sentimentality to a particular location where we trade "currency" for pleasures?

this is all without the scientific "miracles" of the universe, as you are staring into empty space at this moment located on a rock orbiting a star which is more than likely orbiting a black hole situated in the middle of the milky way, and whose origin in and of itself, is highly complicated in inception, all while we have millions of other galaxies functioning in a similar manner. Look at your own body for the world's sake, there are people who dedicate decades in its study and we still do not fully comprehend it and this is when we look at solely the function of it, as when you keep zooming in onto the subatomic level, things get even more weird . There are many, many, many examples of thousands of "miracles" taking place as you read this, and to learn/cite all of them is a task next to impossible . (please excuse any scientific illiteracies as I am still a high school senior and have yet to take collegiate classes on this matter)

and to expound upon this, we cannot forget to incorporate the principles of chaos theory as they apply in our own lives. Every little detail of your life and history has worked synergestically to get you where you are. What if your dad decided to have sex five minutes later than when he did? what if George Washington had died of measles? what if your family decided upon an alternative location to live? what if Stephen Douglas had defeated Lincoln in the primaries? what if you made your friends in an entirely different fashion resulting in a totally different social life?

would you still be here, not for these "ifs"? would you still be you ? There are a billion of these "if's" and these apply only to you, look outside, see all those people who harbor their own set of "ifs" and realize each of these people are living lives as complicated as yours.if one looks at life objectively and removes the human ego from thinking it is the center of the universe, I cannot fathom how you could not think the existence in which we live in is completely absurd.

Edited by thebauce, 20 April 2013 - 11:18 PM.

[shadowhawk]

Is God Just a human invention?

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0825436540

http://www.apologeti...-invention.html

http://www.didhumansinventgod.com/

[shadowhawk]

Thebuace: To many people claiming they have the "truth", when they don't. The real "truth" is that we are currently present in an absurd existence, and any attempt to explain it will end in futility/contradictions; the best we can do is embrace this absurdity and live our lives in the present moment. Thinking too much about our existence and the meaning of life will drive one insane, which is why I believe religion exists, as an attempt to rationalize the irrational.

Is this the real truth? Sounds self defeating. Have you thought about this? How much? How do you know? Do you uae reason when judging religion, “irrational?”

I don't adhere to a solidified belief, as I like to think of my philosophy as quite malleable, but no one can claim that any specific truth is absolute, hence why I put the word,"truth", in quotations. As a child, I was reared by Muslim parents but never really called myself religious at any point in my life, and I never claimed that religion is "irrational", I only claimed that it was an attempt to rationalize the irrational so humans do not have to think about it or otherwise gives them the ability to attribute some cosmic/divine force to the universe. As a matter of fact, religion has offered my father solstice from many hardships in his life as it has to many other humans, and I appreciate that fact; religion is a great way to keep humans sane in an otherwise insane existence. Nothing around us makes sense if thought about for a good while, thus naturally, because of our intelligence, we devise methods in an attempt to explain this in a way so that we don't lose site of existence (from Zeus, to Siva, to Osiris, and to the Abrahamic God) . I personally believe our origins and how the universe came to be are to a far more absurd degree than we currently attribute them to be, so absurd that we cannot even fathom the concept (think how the world's smartest people barely grasp the most insane topics in the realm of theoretical physics, and this is the limit that our collective intelligence leads us to; in fact, some of these topics are so complicated that it is next to impossible to devise an undergraduate collegiate education plan that introduces them to average scholars, much less the general population).

To say our existence isn't absurd is denying observation, and when you boil down the main function of religion, it serves as a mechanism for inspiring delusion, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Sense you have no “Truth,“ no use discussing what ever it is. (Malleable) I would be off topic to comment on Islam, so I won’t. You seem to be a skeptic about everything but your skepticism. You are not skeptic of your observations. If someone looked at you, would they conclude “delusional,” or is that charitable observation limited for the religious???

Sounds like you had a honorable, and good, Muslim father.

discussing "truths' is quite fallacious in its own manner, as the very definition of truth according to Dictionary.com, lies within these boundaries:

truth
[trooth]

noun, plural truths [troothz, trooths]
1.
the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2.
conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3.
a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4.
the state or character of being true.
5.
actuality or actual existence.


how could any multiple persons claim this state of being in accordance to the answers of life's who, what, where, and why? with each of these "truths" presenting contradicting information in regards to natural observation (the clashes between science/religion), the ridiculousness of the doctrine containing the "truth"(look up "skeptic's annoted bible" or just reflect upon the fact that the Bible contains such stories where 40 children are murdered by "god" due to a comment on some bald guy's lack of hair or the story where Jesus kills a fig tree because it is not producing to his expectations), as well as the inability to coherently agree upon what the "truth" is trying to communicate to people (hence all these sects and different religions).

I don't believe I would be looked upon by delusion because if anybody steps back for a minute, and objectively analyzes their surrounding, they will realize how asinine this entire existence really is. Here we are, a group of higher-evolved primates, who because of our intelligence, displace ourselves from our natural state of existence and even view ourselves with higher worth than the entire natural kingdom. Our intelligence has led us to a point where, right at this moment, as you're reading this sentence that I typed up sometime in your past using an array of electronic devices that I'm not quite sure how they function, you are transcribing my "words" (what are "words", really? a series of whistling noises produced as a result of various strains on the throat muscle, no?) in your mind you are receiving my thoughts in a sort of pseudo-telepathy.

Where are you right now? in your "house" or at "work"? what is a "house" and what is the significance of "work"? why do we ascribe such sentimentality to a particular location where we trade "currency" for pleasures?

this is all without the scientific "miracles" of the universe, as you are staring into empty space at this moment located on a rock orbiting a star which is more than likely orbiting a black hole situated in the middle of the milky way, and whose origin in and of itself, is highly complicated in inception, all while we have millions of other galaxies functioning in a similar manner. Look at your own body for the world's sake, there are people who dedicate decades in its study and we still do not fully comprehend it and this is when we look at solely the function of it, as when you keep zooming in onto the subatomic level, things get even more weird . There are many, many, many examples of thousands of "miracles" taking place as you read this, and to learn/cite all of them is a task next to impossible . (please excuse any scientific illiteracies as I am still a high school senior and have yet to take collegiate classes on this matter)

and to expound upon this, we cannot forget to incorporate the principles of chaos theory as they apply in our own lives. Every little detail of your life and history has worked synergestically to get you where you are. What if your dad decided to have sex five minutes later than when he did? what if George Washington had died of measles? what if your family decided upon an alternative location to live? what if Stephen Douglas had defeated Lincoln in the primaries? what if you made your friends in an entirely different fashion resulting in a totally different social life?

would you still be here, not for these "ifs"? would you still be you ? There are a billion of these "if's" and these apply only to you, look outside, see all those people who harbor their own set of "ifs" and realize each of these people are living lives as complicated as yours.if one looks at life objectively and removes the human ego from thinking it is the center of the universe, I cannot fathom how you could not think the existence in which we live in is completely absurd.

You sure argue, that your answer that there is no truth, is right. People disagree so there is no truth? Except yours of course.. Ok By the way you are off topic attacking Christianity.

Tell me if there is no truth, how you can be objective about the truth of your delusions? You are part of existence are you not? Does this make you “asinine,” or does this apply only to religious people? Are these your thoughts you are sending to me?

What is a house? Is there a true house? Chaos theory??? Do you believe any of this? I am starting to feel guilty for this conversation. I apologize for it and wish you well.

There is no truth so I am not going to try to convince you otherwise.

Let’s get back on topic.

[thebauce]

Thebuace: To many people claiming they have the "truth", when they don't. The real "truth" is that we are currently present in an absurd existence, and any attempt to explain it will end in futility/contradictions; the best we can do is embrace this absurdity and live our lives in the present moment. Thinking too much about our existence and the meaning of life will drive one insane, which is why I believe religion exists, as an attempt to rationalize the irrational.

Is this the real truth? Sounds self defeating. Have you thought about this? How much? How do you know? Do you uae reason when judging religion, “irrational?”

I don't adhere to a solidified belief, as I like to think of my philosophy as quite malleable, but no one can claim that any specific truth is absolute, hence why I put the word,"truth", in quotations. As a child, I was reared by Muslim parents but never really called myself religious at any point in my life, and I never claimed that religion is "irrational", I only claimed that it was an attempt to rationalize the irrational so humans do not have to think about it or otherwise gives them the ability to attribute some cosmic/divine force to the universe. As a matter of fact, religion has offered my father solstice from many hardships in his life as it has to many other humans, and I appreciate that fact; religion is a great way to keep humans sane in an otherwise insane existence. Nothing around us makes sense if thought about for a good while, thus naturally, because of our intelligence, we devise methods in an attempt to explain this in a way so that we don't lose site of existence (from Zeus, to Siva, to Osiris, and to the Abrahamic God) . I personally believe our origins and how the universe came to be are to a far more absurd degree than we currently attribute them to be, so absurd that we cannot even fathom the concept (think how the world's smartest people barely grasp the most insane topics in the realm of theoretical physics, and this is the limit that our collective intelligence leads us to; in fact, some of these topics are so complicated that it is next to impossible to devise an undergraduate collegiate education plan that introduces them to average scholars, much less the general population).

To say our existence isn't absurd is denying observation, and when you boil down the main function of religion, it serves as a mechanism for inspiring delusion, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Sense you have no “Truth,“ no use discussing what ever it is. (Malleable) I would be off topic to comment on Islam, so I won’t. You seem to be a skeptic about everything but your skepticism. You are not skeptic of your observations. If someone looked at you, would they conclude “delusional,” or is that charitable observation limited for the religious???

Sounds like you had a honorable, and good, Muslim father.

discussing "truths' is quite fallacious in its own manner, as the very definition of truth according to Dictionary.com, lies within these boundaries:

truth
[trooth]

noun, plural truths [troothz, trooths]
1.
the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2.
conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3.
a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4.
the state or character of being true.
5.
actuality or actual existence.


how could any multiple persons claim this state of being in accordance to the answers of life's who, what, where, and why? with each of these "truths" presenting contradicting information in regards to natural observation (the clashes between science/religion), the ridiculousness of the doctrine containing the "truth"(look up "skeptic's annoted bible" or just reflect upon the fact that the Bible contains such stories where 40 children are murdered by "god" due to a comment on some bald guy's lack of hair or the story where Jesus kills a fig tree because it is not producing to his expectations), as well as the inability to coherently agree upon what the "truth" is trying to communicate to people (hence all these sects and different religions).

I don't believe I would be looked upon by delusion because if anybody steps back for a minute, and objectively analyzes their surrounding, they will realize how asinine this entire existence really is. Here we are, a group of higher-evolved primates, who because of our intelligence, displace ourselves from our natural state of existence and even view ourselves with higher worth than the entire natural kingdom. Our intelligence has led us to a point where, right at this moment, as you're reading this sentence that I typed up sometime in your past using an array of electronic devices that I'm not quite sure how they function, you are transcribing my "words" (what are "words", really? a series of whistling noises produced as a result of various strains on the throat muscle, no?) in your mind you are receiving my thoughts in a sort of pseudo-telepathy.

Where are you right now? in your "house" or at "work"? what is a "house" and what is the significance of "work"? why do we ascribe such sentimentality to a particular location where we trade "currency" for pleasures?

this is all without the scientific "miracles" of the universe, as you are staring into empty space at this moment located on a rock orbiting a star which is more than likely orbiting a black hole situated in the middle of the milky way, and whose origin in and of itself, is highly complicated in inception, all while we have millions of other galaxies functioning in a similar manner. Look at your own body for the world's sake, there are people who dedicate decades in its study and we still do not fully comprehend it and this is when we look at solely the function of it, as when you keep zooming in onto the subatomic level, things get even more weird . There are many, many, many examples of thousands of "miracles" taking place as you read this, and to learn/cite all of them is a task next to impossible . (please excuse any scientific illiteracies as I am still a high school senior and have yet to take collegiate classes on this matter)

and to expound upon this, we cannot forget to incorporate the principles of chaos theory as they apply in our own lives. Every little detail of your life and history has worked synergestically to get you where you are. What if your dad decided to have sex five minutes later than when he did? what if George Washington had died of measles? what if your family decided upon an alternative location to live? what if Stephen Douglas had defeated Lincoln in the primaries? what if you made your friends in an entirely different fashion resulting in a totally different social life?

would you still be here, not for these "ifs"? would you still be you ? There are a billion of these "if's" and these apply only to you, look outside, see all those people who harbor their own set of "ifs" and realize each of these people are living lives as complicated as yours.if one looks at life objectively and removes the human ego from thinking it is the center of the universe, I cannot fathom how you could not think the existence in which we live in is completely absurd.

You sure argue, that your answer that there is no truth, is right. People disagree so there is no truth? Except yours of course.. Ok By the way you are off topic attacking Christianity.

Tell me if there is no truth, how you can be objective about the truth of your delusions? You are part of existence are you not? Does this make you “asinine,” or does this apply only to religious people? Are these your thoughts you are sending to me?

What is a house? Is there a true house? Chaos theory??? Do you believe any of this? I am starting to feel guilty for this conversation. I apologize for it and wish you well.

There is no truth so I am not going to try to convince you otherwise.

Let’s get back on topic.

yes, I do not wish to derail this thread any longer, let us just agree upon the fact that the origins of life, the universe, and everything are of a far greater concept than human kind is capable of comprehending, whether that concept is "god", the "brahman", or whatever term man wishes to ascribe upon it.

And, yes, in my attempt to withhold any further derailment, I will end my comment with the answer to your questions:


"Tell me if there is no truth, how you can be objective about the truth of your delusions?"
I cannot, but I can objectively analyze my surrounding

"You are part of existence are you not?"
Correct

"Does this make you “asinine,” or does this apply only to religious people?"
Yes, because we live in an absurd existence, my existence and beliefs in themselves are absurd as well, so essentially, yes this makes me "asinine".

"What is a house? Is there a true house? Chaos theory??? Do you believe any of this?"
What is there to believe about the Chaos theory?
from wikipedia, "Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions, an effect which is popularly referred to as the butterfly effect."and my house statement was just a simple decree on how ridiculous everything is, we're sitting here ascribing sentimentality and ownership to a small plot of earth, which serves as an even bigger "home" situated in the universe, which I guess to our current understanding could be called "the biggest home".


and I apologize if I came off as hostile towards the Christian belief.

[shadowhawk]

How did people think to create the concept of god?

Dear the buace

This discussion is entirely off subject. With no guidelines it turns into this kind of thing. However I wish to thank you for the discussion.

[YOLF]

I guess the most frustrating part is that when people couldn't find out how everything worked instead of searching for the right answer or admitting that there was not enough information to draw a proper conclusion they instead made up their own false stories that aren't based on observation of the world around them.

To give credit where credit is due, they did sew real stories into the false stories and code them to be recognizable. Religion is an ancient form of intelligence. It was used to undermine governments and sabotage the social efforts of foreign leaders... things like that. So it has it's roots in war. It eventually came to be family effort to preserve the peace by weeding out undesirables by raising them with the wrong assumptions so everyone would see them coming the way it happens to today and no one would be the wiser.

In the future they will ask, "How did our great great great etc. grandparents think to apply the principles of religion to the media, the internet and the smart phone app" as well as whatever comes next. So how do you think they did it? It's happening right in front of you.

If you understand all of this, you'll understand all the tangents and "scientific" "proof" of religion or the existence of a god. If you want to know all the specifics, pm me.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 08 May 2013 - 03:05 AM.

[BlueCloud]

My theory is that the need for God is a simple matter of "transferance" while you grow up. When you're a child, you are relieved from anxiety by the mere existence of your parents. At that age , you tend to project supernatural powers over your parents ( and grown-ups in general) . Your Mom or Dad will protect you from everything, it is why you come running to them when you hear the thunder and think lightbolts are some angry bizarre creatures coming after you to eat you or hurt you. Your capacity to project yourself into the future is more limited , and your think your needs will provided for forever by these superpowerful creatures called Parents ( or adults in general).

Once you start coming out of childhood, you start realising that your parents are far from being powerful and eternal, that in fact they are as weak as you and that if something terrible happens , they might not even be able to protect themselves. The roof that you had over your head suddenly disappears, and anxiety creeps in. The need to be sheltered from anxiety is probably as powerful as the need to sleep, eat, procreate. So you simply replace your parents by a "super-parent". In fact , in all the major holy books, God tends to behave exactly like the souvenir one has of their parents while they were a child : "Do this" - "Don't do that" - "If you're a good boy/girl you will get a gift "(you'll go to Heaven ) -" if you behave badly you'll be grounded and punished" ( you'll go to Hell ) -" Don't ask why, you'll understand later when you're grown up" ( God's mysteries, he/she knows what's good for you ), " Do this strange and incomprehensible ritual X number of times a day" ( brush your teeth before bed, don't defecate everywhere, etc) , etc...

Edited by BlueCloud, 06 November 2013 - 03:34 PM.

[DukeNukem]

I can not even fathom how people could have created the idea of god. When I try to picture myself in a time before science I just can't see myself creating such a concept as god even if I lived for thousands of years. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if everyone thought like me the concept of god wouldn't even be born into existence. Does anyone else here think this way?

The hypothesis that I think is most likely correct is well explained in the book, The Evolution of God.

Short version: Our ancestors, as they became behaviorally human, some 60,000 years ago, had dreams, as we do now. Oftentimes, they would have dreams of their close, dead relatives visiting them. Sometimes, in these dreams, these ancestors would give guidance, like a big rain snow storm is coming, or tomorrow there will be a successful hunt. And sometimes, this guidance was correct.

It would only take a few times of coincidentally correct guidance for these tribal early humans to believe that these dream visions were very real. And to encourage more dream visits, they learned to make offerings, and to pray to these spirits. And they would believe that these spirits had great power over conditions in the natural world. (Note: This is exactly the stage that we found native Americans upon the arrival of Columbus to the new world.)

Eventually, these ancestors each had unique functions, such as one would be in charge of hunting, one would be in charge of fishing, one would be in charge of health, one would be in charge of weather, and on and on. This is how polytheism got its start. And eventually tribes had shaman who had a spiritual connection to these ancestor spirits, who eventually became elevated to a god-like status.

And then, after likely 10's of 1000's of years of ancestralism and polytheism, the idea of monotheism caught on, because it became obvious to various tribal and nation states that a single god must be more powerful that a god in a polytheistic belief system. For example, this is how the polytheistic system of Hebrew gods became a monotheistic system with all the many god's powers combined into the god of war, Yahweh, who eventually became the Christian god.

[shadowhawk]

I can not even fathom how people could have created the idea of god. When I try to picture myself in a time before science I just can't see myself creating such a concept as god even if I lived for thousands of years. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if everyone thought like me the concept of god wouldn't even be born into existence. Does anyone else here think this way?

The hypothesis that I think is most likely correct is well explained in the book, The Evolution of God.

Short version: Our ancestors, as they became behaviorally human, some 60,000 years ago, had dreams, as we do now. Oftentimes, they would have dreams of their close, dead relatives visiting them. Sometimes, in these dreams, these ancestors would give guidance, like a big rain snow storm is coming, or tomorrow there will be a successful hunt. And sometimes, this guidance was correct.

It would only take a few times of coincidentally correct guidance for these tribal early humans to believe that these dream visions were very real. And to encourage more dream visits, they learned to make offerings, and to pray to these spirits. And they would believe that these spirits had great power over conditions in the natural world. (Note: This is exactly the stage that we found native Americans upon the arrival of Columbus to the new world.)

Eventually, these ancestors each had unique functions, such as one would be in charge of hunting, one would be in charge of fishing, one would be in charge of health, one would be in charge of weather, and on and on. This is how polytheism got its start. And eventually tribes had shaman who had a spiritual connection to these ancestor spirits, who eventually became elevated to a god-like status.

And then, after likely 10's of 1000's of years of ancestralism and polytheism, the idea of monotheism caught on, because it became obvious to various tribal and nation states that a single god must be more powerful that a god in a polytheistic belief system. For example, this is how the polytheistic system of Hebrew gods became a monotheistic system with all the many god's powers combined into the god of war, Yahweh, who eventually became the Christian god.

Or they could have looked into the night sky, as you can still do today, and asked “Why?” Something in the human heart, unlike the animals answered back, “God.” Ockham’s Razor? The God gene? Why? See some are still doing it. Why???

Edited by shadowhawk, 06 November 2013 - 07:13 PM.

[sthira]

The hypothesis that I think is most likely correct is well explained in the book, The Evolution of God.

Funny coincidence I recently finished Wright's book. In it, he maintains that gods arose as illusions, and the flowing "history of the idea of god is the evolution of an illusion." As city-states arose, kings needed illusion and used the god(s) to solidify their rule over people. The king, now the communicator for the magical god, used whatever worked to scare the holy shit out of people who didnt believe; kings often demanded human sacrifices (or else god the illusion's wrath would kill if arbitrary crazy wasn't done on the king's behalf). This is different only in tone from religion today; religion remains a fear tool and illusion generator to scare grandmas out of their assets.

It's interesting that monotheism evolved out of poly, but polytheism hung around -- is still hanging. But one god had to "win" so soon god had to kill off competitors.

Also god, Wright argues, wasn't even thought of as "good" by Jesus. Rather, the Apostle Paul's version of love (great writing here btw about love in Corinthians) a love-god eventually triumphed in Constantine's ethically diverse empire since love-god seemed to favor peace and harmony between different creeds of people, Wright argues.

[N.T.M.]

lol I've often done the "if-everybody-were-like-me" thought experiment. That aside, I think religion originated from evolutionary pressures.

Edited by N.T.M., 07 November 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[Layberinthius]

Weed, Schitzophrenia or aliens.

Edited by Layberinthius, 07 November 2013 - 08:17 AM.