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Ethics of self-experimentation

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#1 krsna

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:45 PM


So recently some forum members have decided to venture into some fairly experimental territory, pooling funds together in order to get a little-studied chemical from the 70's synthesized for private use with no agreed-upon protocols for safety or to even discern effects in meaningful ways. The value of this self-experimentation to the community or to science in general is pretty low consequently.

I'd be interested in hearing peoples opinion on this, as I have been ostracised from their thread, justifiably so perhaps, risk-takers and gamblers don't like to hear any appeal to sanity or reason in their frenzy to engage in risky behaviour.

My own personal concern with this is the potential of setting a precedent for even riskier behaviour in the future and whether it should really be condoned on a website devoted purportedly to life extension. What happens when 20 people scattered across the world, using this forum as a central focal point to meet and collaborate, all suddenly get stricken down with death? This may be an unlikely outcome with their present venture, but the possible safe success of this venture will only feed into this mindset that all such compounds are benign and without dangers and so even greater risks may be taken in the future. I see some potential outcomes from this that would directly or indirectly affect me, and possibly you. Governments generally ban their citizens from ingesting certain products, like a mommy or daddy having to tell the child not to put this or that into their mouth, due to the potential it will cause harm. When a group of 20-or-so people all decide to put some unknown chemical into their mouth and suffer some horrible consequence (liver failure, heart failure, etc), governments will react swiftly to try to prevent such things happening in the future. This could mean greater controls on what a private individual can import into the country from outside, or upon the supplement industry as a whole. Like your piracetam? Like cheap chemicals delivered to your door from a chinese chemical factory rather than paying reseller prices? This could all change if this reckless behaviour proceeds and if (russian roulette style) the bullet ends up hitting true. The other effect, less important to myself but maybe not to others, is a potential crackdown, surveillance, or other, upon this very website and the institute it represents. Does this institute wish to be implicated in the behaviour of some reckless individuals? There are also many influencable minds on here, many people whose ages can't be verified who can send some money to a nickname and a few weeks later have a mystery chemical delivered to their door which they shall ingest possibly alone at home, without knowing or caring about risks (I'm young and can't die).

These are just some thoughts, feel free to say whatever it is you'd like to say, unlike the people in the above-stated thread, I do not flee in the face of criticism, I encourage it, both from others and more importantly, from myself, it is through criticism and self-analysis that one can make the best most well-informed decisions, not through blind arrogance, faith and the stifling of opposing points of view.

Edited by bowleaf, 08 April 2013 - 04:50 PM.

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#2 Xenix

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:56 PM

I think that there certainly are a lot of damaged souls on this forum; people who can't find help (or benefit) from traditional medicine/procedures, and so are looking for a way to expand their chance of recovery/ability to live a normal life.

*A lot* of what I've read on here regarding self-diagnosis and experimentation isn't pretty, let alone responsible -- but I think I can definitely empathise with some of the people on this forum who would give anything - ANYTHING - for that second chance at life that has been unfairly ripped away from them through injury, accident, or unfortunate genetic makeup... And whether this involves taking risks that may further their injuries, cause problems elsewhere, or cost several thousands of dollars... at the end of the day it really is amazing how far we will go and what we will do for love.

I sincerely believe that a large proportion of the members on this forum would rank the chance of recovery much higher than the potential risks involved with exploring new drugs that have not undergone clinical trials. I know that I am one of these people. At the end of the day, we just don't give a fuck what it takes to get there, so long as our quality of life improves.

Anyway, I hope everyone can find a solution to their problems in whatever form is required... I know I'm still trying to find mine.

Edited by Xenix, 08 April 2013 - 05:07 PM.

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#3 daouda

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:20 PM

Xenix, it's as if you just took all these words from my mind, except that the thing that took my life away from me (and thousands of other ppl) are fluoroquinolone antibiotics which as still promoted as safe by the medical industry, so I'm much more thorough now in my assessment of the safety of a particular drug/supp.... but yeah, it's amazing how nothing else really matters once you have lost your health. Unless this hasnt happened to you you really cant understand how ppl would truly give ANYTHING for that second chance at life as you wrote it...
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#4 Xenix

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:35 PM

I've read about fluoroquinolone neurotoxicity before - sounds like a real bitch when it comes to side-effects... I hope your condition improves.

It's funny how we will never be able to fully appreciate what we have until it's gone. I hope to reclaim even just a fragment of my old self - that in itself would be enough to consider what I would call a miracle.
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#5 OpaqueMind

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:59 PM

I agree whole-heartedly with the above posts. If you don't have your mental health, you can enjoy nothing. There are people here crippled by their problems, and I imagine those are the people who are willing to ingest the most far out and untested substances in order to try and rectify the tragedies that render them shells of their former selves. As willing and autonomous adults, they have the right to choose this path. When you get to that point, there will be no qualms about going all or nothing, when really you have nothing left to lose.

If one is not in so dire a situation but merely gripped by the desire to test completely uncharted territories and be a guinea pig, then we cannot really stand in the way of that insanity. They may be brave, stupid, or both, but considering they're on this site I would hope that they have enough logical abilities to reason out the potential pros and cons and proceed from there. As we do not know their situation I think we should just leave well alone, with an antennae swivelled in that direction to see if anything interesting comes out of it.
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#6 krsna

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:08 PM

I completely empathize with those in a position in life in which the desperate hope of changing things for the better would lead one to taking otherwise unreasonable risks. I would like to believe that those ingesting vast amounts of mystery powders are truly in such a position and not - which I have a tendency to suspect with a few on here - healthy, young, otherwise normal people trying to shortcut their way to an unfair advantage over their capitalistic competitors. It also disturbs me a bit that in this other thread all one requires is $80 (or so, I haven't kept track of the precise price point) and a paypal account (or whichever money transfer method they have decided upon now) and through the power of money pooling an anonymous nickname can have a chemical like this delivered to their door. Do the adults organizing this consider the possibility that at least one of those anonymous nicknames may actually be a 15 year old struggling with his homework with $80 to blow? I hope they can live with that childs health on their conscience if anything goes wrong -- it would not be a position I would be placing myself in.
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#7 KoolK3n

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:41 PM

I completely empathize with those in a position in life in which the desperate hope of changing things for the better would lead one to taking otherwise unreasonable risks. I would like to believe that those ingesting vast amounts of mystery powders are truly in such a position and not - which I have a tendency to suspect with a few on here - healthy, young, otherwise normal people trying to shortcut their way to an unfair advantage over their capitalistic competitors. It also disturbs me a bit that in this other thread all one requires is $80 (or so, I haven't kept track of the precise price point) and a paypal account (or whichever money transfer method they have decided upon now) and through the power of money pooling an anonymous nickname can have a chemical like this delivered to their door. Do the adults organizing this consider the possibility that at least one of those anonymous nicknames may actually be a 15 year old struggling with his homework with $80 to blow? I hope they can live with that childs health on their conscience if anything goes wrong -- it would not be a position I would be placing myself in.


I had a friend who's been in the nootropic game for almost 8 years. Ordered some Deprenyl. Injected it and ended up in the psych ward for several months. Still suffering from bipolar and psychosis. I see your point. At the very least, they are getting the chemical tested. But I see your point in more prerequisites being required.

Edited by KoolK3n, 08 April 2013 - 11:42 PM.

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#8 Hebbeh

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 01:02 AM

Highly hypocritical of you buying gray market nootropics from questionable sources on the internet yourself. You're guilty of everything you accuse others of and more. You have questionable motives for creating a made up problem where none exists. You talk about fear of government intervention but it is you who is attempting to play big brother. All your "concerns" are trumped up fear mongering and more than a little over the top. Your little feelers got hurt in the other thread and now you want to create a scene. Very junior high quite honestly.
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#9 krsna

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:00 PM

Highly hypocritical of you buying gray market nootropics from questionable sources on the internet yourself. You're guilty of everything you accuse others of and more. You have questionable motives for creating a made up problem where none exists. You talk about fear of government intervention but it is you who is attempting to play big brother. All your "concerns" are trumped up fear mongering and more than a little over the top. Your little feelers got hurt in the other thread and now you want to create a scene. Very junior high quite honestly.



There's a world of difference between buying nootropics from ebay resellers and having a little-studied drug synthesized in a chinese chemical factory. Wouldn't you agree? I would not say I purchase from any resellers who are 'too' suspicious, low price seems suspicious sometimes, but I do pay great attention to reviews and with at least 500+ positive reviews and not a single negative, it's difficult to worry too much. I also take precautions upon using any new supplement from a new vendor, taking small amounts (if even for an allergy test), ensuring I have someone near me, monitoring my pulse. Saying I am 'guilty of everything I accuse others of and more" is a bit of a stretch.

I'm not playing big brother, I have no power for that, I'm not a moderator here and have no power over you ultimately, if you are so worried about my OPINIONS however, you should attempt to discuss your problems with them, as opposed to engaging in ad hominem attacks (attack the message, not the messenger). I think I've presented some compelling arguments against what you all are doing over there and I do not support it, I think it's a danger to this community and a danger to things which I value.

I have no problem with people wanting to experiment with substances in useful, meaningful ways. This is not being done. You have established no agreed-upon protocols for this experiment, either for safety or for examination of any effect, perceived or otherwise. Nor have you taken the most basic precautions ensuring the age of those partaking is one which is the generally agreed upon age of consent for something like this - 18.

I made this thread after several people complained about my clogging up the other thread with my concerns. I invite people to come here and discuss this if they want, but I won't be engaging in defending my character against personal character attacks. If you want to try to psychoanalyse me and my motives in order to discredit me - something I assure you you simply can not properly do - then I will be ignoring those posts in the future and focusing upon responding to posts which have substance and relevancy to the topic under discussion here.

Also, (laugh), please keep trying to search for every post I've ever made in order to neg me, it shows a high level of maturity on your part and hurts my feelings so awfully much.

Edited by bowleaf, 09 April 2013 - 12:07 PM.

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#10 krsna

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:13 PM

Future newspaper headline: Several members of Immortality Institute in hospital after ingesting little-studied drug they had synthesized in a chinese basement - Government investigates, congress set to pass new regulations on supplements market.

Don't think it'll happen? It's russian roulette, so it may not, but mass liver failure, or other significant adverse effect will lead to this, especially if someone under the age of 18 is involved.

The benefit gained from this sketchy behaviour? A few anecdotal reports on a webforum, which I can probably summarize right now as they will as with all of these substances run the entire spectrum of possible experiences where people draw in placebo and personal problems to describe effects of this or that compound they've newly ingested. This is why such things as double blind placebo controlled studies in a clinical setting are so valuable to research and medical knowledge, with medical personnel on site and full consent of adults taking part to minimize risk as much as possible --- and why what you people are doing is completely without value to anyone, including yourselves and will only have the potential for very negative consequences for everyone.

As a final word, based on the amount of negs I have received I can discern that I have the community against me in this and while I feel absolved for having spoken I will be officially terminating all association with this institute and the behaviour of its members. This forum does not appear to allow one to close ones account -- I see why Isochroma threw such a fit in the past now -- but a moderator has permission to do so, else I will simply not be logging in in the future.

Edited by bowleaf, 09 April 2013 - 12:49 PM.


#11 brainslugged

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 01:53 PM

Hi, bowleaf.

I, too, am a bit concerned about some of the things being done.

However, I think it is VERY important to remember that people's bodies are their own, and they are the only ones that fully feel what is going on in their mind or feel the mental pain/trouble that they feel. I beleive that everyone should be allowed to use whatever drugs they wish. I think that, if taken carefully and responsibly, drugs can make a hugely positive difference in someone's life.

I think it is perfectly acceptable for people to experiment with drugs as they wish and to share their experiences. Human trials are needed.

It does kinda concern me the type of attitude that is being produced in the certain thread, though. I feel like maybe some people are too hopeful and may get "carried away" so to speak. It it always a bit disconcerting when people compare a drug to NZT.

What concerns me is that people who are simply looking for a bit of an edge could find the thread, get carried away, and end up taking a massive dose of a chemical which we don't really understand, thought to be primarily acting on a receptor which we don't really understand.

I think that perhaps it would be more responsible to have some sort of indicator saying [POTENTIAL DANGER] or [PURELY EXPERIMENTAL] or something.

Experimentation through Shulgin protocol (careful observation and slow dosage increase with large reset times between, being sure not to overdo it) and VERY CAREFUL observation could be very beneficial, but what is currently going on is a bit frightening and has changed my mind about trying the substance any time soon, to be honest.

What I mean to say is that, I don't think that "grey market" nootropics are bad. Hell, that is what we are all about, trying new things and trying to improve.If we never tried new things, we would never move forward! But maybe some people in the thread need to slow their roll a bit and step back to look at what they are posting. There is obviously some hypomania going on, but I am unsure of if it is due to preexisting conditions or to the drug.

Overall, I was looking forward to a fun, informative thread when it was started, but now it is just scaring me, and I am a bit disappointed :(


sorry my writing is a bit off, I took too much phenibut last night and it is still affecting me, experimenting through Shulgin protocol :happy: Hope I got my point across. I don't mean to badmouth any of the people in that thread, but I just think they should be really careful, don't want to see anyone get hurt
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#12 KoolK3n

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:35 PM

As a final word, based on the amount of negs I have received I can discern that I have the community against me in this and while I feel absolved for having spoken I will be officially terminating all association with this institute and the behaviour of its members. This forum does not appear to allow one to close ones account -- I see why Isochroma threw such a fit in the past now -- but a moderator has permission to do so, else I will simply not be logging in in the future.


Noooooo people like you are the reason why I'm still logging in. I like to engage in conversations with people who have different viewpoints. It's insightful. Don't leave!

#13 medievil

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:53 PM

neg points, he's opinion is based on he's viewpoint, discussing differened viewpoints id actually support.

#14 Timothy

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:15 PM

Hi,

In full agreement with Bowleaf's sentiments on the issues around this and have considered the ethical implications for even giving advice to another member for experimentation. If someone follows advice as the consequence of the discussion within this forum, what are the implications?

My inner musings conclude that it is the slippery slope of having easier access to supplements/chemicals that affects our rational judgement and skipping necessary steps that protect your brain. This is obviously a forum for "increased lifespan" and we should always be advocating good practice and necessary research while being advocates of pushing the boundaries. The question is... what is good practice? Wait for 10 years? No. Something like BHT is illegal, as per FDA rules, to be studied as a medical drug other than a food preservative.

I for one shudder every time I even have to hesitate the quality of online sales. It sounds silly but I'd like to see a forum "approved" suppliers list. The problem with this is that it needs administration and a definition of "good practice". What is the legal framework for this? I'm not going to begin to think of the implications as I neither like the idea of creating a cartel nor taking responsibility for the choice of online shops and their application.

Simply put, the ethics of self-experimentation are massive in the context of the forum.

In the context of an individual, with no dependent family, it may seem less so.

In the context of someone looking for the magic mix of supplements to correct "issues" using researched and well understood supplements I believe there are far fewer issues. Most of the time someone is trying to find the right regime to suit their actual problem where medical advice has failed them.

This is what helped me and fundamentally changed my life in a very permanent way. I do believe that I am far past my issues being resolved (slippery slope).

Bowleaf: Dont take it so hard.

Brainslug: I know some people who are far too careless and reckless to engage and I would absolutely refuse to take responsibility for their actions. I for one, wait at least a few years before trying new supplements. Something silly like Resveratrol... I can wait until next year before considering it. There are many more well researched supplements that I need to work towards before rushing into it.

-Tim

#15 arcticjoe

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:06 PM

Highly hypocritical of you buying gray market nootropics from questionable sources on the internet yourself. You're guilty of everything you accuse others of and more. You have questionable motives for creating a made up problem where none exists. You talk about fear of government intervention but it is you who is attempting to play big brother. All your "concerns" are trumped up fear mongering and more than a little over the top. Your little feelers got hurt in the other thread and now you want to create a scene. Very junior high quite honestly.


oh the irony.

#16 Major Legend

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:06 PM

I agree with bow lead even in the other thread, but then he got butt hurt and went on a spiral, now going as far to say the rest of the forum is out to get him.

I dont think we should endorse addiction or reckless behavior persay. If people want to try experimental chemicals they will find a way to do one way or another. I think safety should be hugely encouraged.
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#17 CrazyIguana

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:05 AM

Do the adults organizing this consider the possibility that at least one of those anonymous nicknames may actually be a 15 year old struggling with his homework with $80 to blow? I hope they can live with that childs health on their conscience if anything goes wrong -- it would not be a position I would be placing myself in.

While I'm a little hazy as to whom you are referring to when you say "organizing adults", I can still presume the answer is probably no.

For one, it is not the organizing adult's responsibility, but it is ultimately either the user's or the legal guardian's. Look at any other situation; minors abusing drugs, alcohol, even hanging out with the wrong crowd, are truly the responsibility of their legal guardian.

Aside from ethics, I would hope minors and/or general users would be responsible enough to do background homework on any substance/supplement before they even think about ingesting it. I'm not even sure what racetams are considered to be (drugs, supplements, ect..), but, in general, they are considered to be safe. For instance, Piracetam has been well studied and shows both lower toxicity than salt while providing neuroprotective properties that also has effectiveness in treating mental decline. Studies have been done on healthy young individuals, and the results seem to be more or less subtle and inconclusive. Not to mention, such studies were done decades ago, and I have never read any reports of mental decline as repercussion from such studies.

As for ingesting unstudied substance, I agree with you completely. It's just a bad idea. But, as for the studied ones which are shown to be safe, I see no problem.

And to one of your points, as for students using well established and generally accepted safe supplements, for academic gain, and even healthy adults using them to seek cognitive enhancement, I see no problem. To be completely honest though, my viewpoint on this matter is very bias, as I am such a user. In my opinion it is the same thing as someone who takes prescribed Adderall. Notice how I said prescribed. This is because just as prescribed Adderall is a legal "enhancer", substances such as Piracetam are legal without such permission from a medical professional as well. There are no laws against such use, and I don't expect there to be. If you really want to be nitty-gritty with the ethics of such use, then 'enhancement' would have to be defined more explicitly. The reason for this being that you could even consider simple stimulants like caffeine (in my opinion to be the ORIGINAL nootropic, Europe has been said to be "built on caffeine", long night study sessions, ect..), certain daily supplements, and even possibly certain foods as 'enhancers'. I mean, hell, we might as well start to throw into the mix their parent's social class, ethnic background, date of birth (outlined by Malcom Gladwell in his bestselling book Outliers [I STRONGLY encourage to read this book]), primary education, and other such factors that do eventually favor one person over another and label them as 'enhancers'. Currently these could be classified as such, and this is the exact reason this area remains untouched.

I'm a Freshman in college at a very well established institution, and I will have you know that it is an extremely common practice to use such 'enhancers'. This leads me to my next point that is almost never looked at: future enhancers. If we're going to discuss the ethics of enhancers, what the hell, this needs to be mentioned. These future enhancers are something the average person has yet to conceive. Through my studies and research, I have been privileged to work on the future of enhancers (which isn't what they are really called, just for the sake of this discussion). Now, when I say future enhancers, one who knows of nootrpics may picture a limitless pill, this is even considered piddly compared to the magnitude of such future enhancers.

Now, let me preface this by saying that these ideas are difficult to fathom and sound like science fiction, and are a reality that our government and top institutions, as well as our brightest minds, are currently debating and working on. And to meme lovers: This is about to escalate quickly.
As you may know, technology is exponentially developing, and this exponential growth has a kind of 'cap' so to speak of. This cap is generally referred to as the singularity. It is estimated, by extremely well qualified individuals (Ray Kurzweil), that a computer will have the computational power of the human brain in the next two decades. Then imagine another decade off, it will have the computational power of the entire human race, remember I said hard to fathom, right? Such advances are accompanied by exponential growth in the study of the human brain. Here's where it gets REALLY crazy. Due to this growth, BCIs (Brain-computer interfaces) are about one or two decades off as well. To people who doubt this claim, look at the human genome project, it started out PAINFULLY slow, with a relative completion rate of 1% at the half marker of the study. With Obama's initiation of a project to map the human brain, we will have similar results. With this knowledge we will be able to start emulating the human brain. Now, here's where even the best minds start to drop off. You'd think we would start to treat learning a subject like putting a flashdrive into a computer, but for the brain, right? While this probably would be an intermediate step and a future enhancer for sure, it is not the ultimate goal.

Humans tend to believe we are the ultimate and unquestionable pinnacles of evolution. I'm sorry to break up that party, but, that's just wrong. The truth is, we're still evolving. One small problem though, calculations show that the human brain is an optimal size for computation (based on longer neural connections and such) and a brain that is any bigger would actually suffer performance. While this is true of biological systems, it is not true of technological systems. Once we have nailed such triumphs as an artificial brains and BCIs, the inevitable will come, and we will migrate from our host's body into these non-biological systems. We will become many many times smarter and live many times longer, and for what this holds, nobody knows. This will not only be a pinnacle for biological enhancement, but it will be our evolutionary step from homo-sapiens to homo-evolutis. Homo-sapien is latin for "wise man" and homo-evolutis is latin for "man who control one's own evolution". A lot of people consider this "unnatural", but fundamentally how is it any different than natural evolution? We are exploiting our evolutionary advantage: cumulative knowledge as a product of our imagination, just as unicellular organisms exploit chemistry, multicellular organisms exploit large numbers, and animals exploit systems of multicellular organisms (organs). But now that we are able to manipulate matter and incorporate it in ourselves, it becomes "unnatural"? I don't think so. I could go much more in depth on the ethics of this, but for the sake of people's time and space, will not.

This is easily going to happen in the next century, so relatively speaking, racetams are weak enhancers for this century. While this all may sound off topic, I wanted to share why I think general enhancers are ok, and are actually for the betterment of humanity. If we pinned them down and said no, what good is scientific advancement? I mean, where do people think science is taking us? To continue a capitalist market until the end of civilization? I'd hope not.

Now, there all some sad truths to future enhancers and these are more worthy ethical inquiries (when it comes to enhancers). For one, they won't be cheap - at all, and this determines accessibility. Secondly, many will reject this, probably religious people, as we will basically become "gods" as homo-evolutis advances to points that are really unimaginable. Third, the people who are left behind, without a doubt, will be less intelligent.

Final note: I expect backlash, but I simply ask to keep it civil.

Edited by CrazyIguana, 10 April 2013 - 12:32 AM.

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#18 Major Legend

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:46 AM

Jesus, im ill and that did not help my headache and my tiny genetically low grade brain...

I would comment that the time frame you mention now 1 to 2 decades is now a loooong time. In our parents generation a decade or two was considered a short time. Those of us who are active are doing eo much on a week by week basis. I think i pretty much do what most people used to do in half a year, in a month. So in that view a timeframe of two decades is irelevant as tthere will be a pardigm shift every few years, and continue to accelerate.

I mean, house prices have gone up 20 percent in major cities in the past year, decades of change are happening in a few years.

As with being left behind or not, i think we are all going to be ranked by our wealth eventually outside of personal merit, as money will be able to purchase enhancement - see my post on wealth is going to become the most common denominator.
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#19 CrazyIguana

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:29 PM

Jesus, im ill and that did not help my headache and my tiny genetically low grade brain...


Haha, someone read the whole thing! :laugh:

I would comment that the time frame you mention now 1 to 2 decades is now a loooong time. In our parents generation a decade or two was considered a short time. Those of us who are active are doing eo much on a week by week basis. I think i pretty much do what most people used to do in half a year, in a month. So in that view a timeframe of two decades is irelevant as tthere will be a pardigm shift every few years, and continue to accelerate.


Well, I don't think it is irrelevant simply due to the fact that it will occur in a small portion of our lifetime (maybe, I'm not sure of the average age on here, but I'm 19). But, you are absolutely correct about how fast we will be advancing. This is the Law of Accelerating Returns, which is basically exponential growth, and we're about to hit the point on the curve when the slope skyrockets. I think paradigm shifts will be viewed differently than we view them today, more specifically, it will require more advancement to be considered a shift.

As with being left behind or not, i think we are all going to be ranked by our wealth eventually outside of personal merit, as money will be able to purchase enhancement - see my post on wealth is going to become the most common denominator.


This is a hard one to swallow, but true. Personally, I don't have any problem with it, and I even think this is the way it should be. Although, I do think there will be exceptions for members of academia, but that's besides the point. I know I'll get shit for this, but this is simply social Darwinism at its finest. I've read many studies that highly correlate wealth with intelligence, and honestly, this future technology should only be available if you can attain it by your own means. To back this up, take natural selection for example, the strongest win, the weak die - kind of the same thing. However cold and dark this may sound, some people are just dead-weights, and there's a point when it's just time to let go.

With all of these advances happening in the next century, we are sure to leave earth and start to inhabit other planets (and moons I suppose). Imagine the possibilities when we aren't tied to our flesh and bones. We would be able to "live" in space without any of the requirements we currently need like oxygen, water, and food (although we will need energy, but we will probably be exploiting molecular energy by then). You know, that's how all of these "alien hunters" and scifi movies have it wrong, if we or some other lifeforms were to venture out into space, considering the level of technology required to do so, it probably wouldn't be biological.

#20 nowayout

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:48 PM

Ethically speaking, habeo corpus, my body is owned by me, not by any government, and I have the complete right to dispose of it as I please.

The OP's argument is similar to the one made by advocates for, say, gay marriage, who bully other gay people for being too "in your face" and thereby antagonizing conservative support for their cause. Bullying people for "rocking the boat" is unethical behavior no matter how you parse it.
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#21 KoolK3n

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:29 PM

Every generation claims that they're on the verge of exponential growth. Remember after the moon landing, "experts" predicted mars colonization and flying cars by the year 2000? With the emergence of the Internet, the process certainly isn't slowing down.

Edited by KoolK3n, 10 April 2013 - 05:45 PM.


#22 CrazyIguana

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:36 PM

Every generation claims that they're on the verge of exponential growth. Remember after the moon landing, "experts" predicted mars colonization and flying cars by the year 2000? With the emergence of the Internet, the process certainly isn't slowing down.


Every generation is in exponential growth, so I guess to your point, the "verge" you speak of is relative (if you zoom in enough, the exponential growth can look astounding, but if you zoom back out, it can look much different).
Take for example, simple exponential growth:

f(x) = mx
dn/dxn f(x) = lnn(m)*mx
(lnx(m)*mx)/(lnx+z(m)*mx) = z/ln(m), so the change in acceleration of f(x) is proportional to its difference by a factor of 1/ln(m).
This demonstrates for however many n higher derivatives of an exponential function (greater than base 1, with the exception of base e), that it is asymptotic, showing that for any value of x to x+z (z∈[0,∞]) there will be a significant difference in the rate of acceleration in relative terms.

More relevantly though, the initial point I was making is that the enhancers of today are also relative. Meaning that they will soon be outlived, and through showing what the future holds, this become obvious.

One of the key differences though, is that the acceleration I'm talking about is quantifiable to much more of an extent than extrapolating that since we landed on the moon in 1969, we will start to colonize mars in 2000. The evidence is really compelling when compared to the claims you're referring to. Moore's law is a good example, it is pretty sturdy and when it does fail, it will most likely start to under-predict rather than over-predict.

Edited by CrazyIguana, 10 April 2013 - 09:44 PM.


#23 RedCairo

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:09 AM

Most supplement taking amounts to "self-experimenting." Reading amazon reviews on supps amounts to reading the results of other peoples' self experimenting (and a good chunk of people who give positive reviews for other [discounts] reasons).

Some supplements are more powerful than others, but this is a whole spectrum scale, so one can't really base all response on that. (My current obsession for example is coming up with a nutrient and noot cocktail that works ideally in DMSO for various target applications, from liver improvement to potential hair density improvement, to simply daily nutrients for a person [me] who does not absorb things well gastrically.)

Both myself and my friends have been profoundly helped by the reading we've done, from research to N=1 experiments, and experimenting with applying things to our own bodies. Some of our group have conditions with no known cure. Some are older people whose hormonal output has crashed and who won't have a decent quality of life without something else improving in their biology or intake. Some of us do experiments and post it in a (currently private, since I have never figured out how to make a blog on longecity despite lurking for years) place for others to see.

I read at enormous speed, and 'synthesis' is nature's gift for the serious 'master of none' condition in my case, and between individuals and research and even commercial sources, I have learned so much and improved my health and well-being and very likely am only alive today because of all that trouble. Can't beat that for "life extension."

I recognize that some people in the world are not critical thinkers. This is why you cannot get into a car with a sunroof without the legal caveat in huge letters of DO NOT PUT BODY OUTSIDE WHILE CAR IS IN MOTION. You could look at this in a somewhat darwinian light I suppose. Too little critical thinking and they won't be contributing to the gene pool much longer.

But do recall that some people are not going to live all that much longer anyway, or not in any decent condition that makes living worth it, in which case, what have they (let alone anyone else) got to lose? Let them, and others reading them, learn from their experience, whatever it may be, at the least.

For me and many of my friends, our experiments, the 'hope' of it, the curiosity of it, the sharing with others about it, is quite literally what keeps us moving on despite ongoing conditions that otherwise are horribly destructive psychologically, just from their presence, never mind the physical side.

I would agree with the unknown outcome of self experimentation of course: and few people seem to have truly good health as a baseline before experimenting with all kinds of things which, in that unique unbalanced bio environ of their body, the gods only know what result they'll get. In the past I've known of people who stuck strong magnets on their forehead (psych ward and long term problems), who took massive doses of things which were not harmful yet do have profound deficiency-effects if you super-megadose for a bit and then abruptly stop (note: most B vits are in this group I've heard), stuff like that. So I agree that there is danger inherent.

But most danger is not in the raw nature of N=1 experimentation, which also offers a big potential.

Most experiments don't seriously hurt or kill people.

Idiocy seriously hurts or kills people.

Sometimes perhaps that includes being a serious risk-taker -- but that's also sometimes what saves and improves people too, so it's a bit of a roulette in that regard, what turns out to be crazy vs. brilliant is often unguessable except in retrospect. But surely it's everyone's individual choice to play.

Unless you are their mother and they are under 18, the best you can do is give advice in a reasonable manner that will not offend them or simply make them exclude your sky-is-falling stern admonitions.

(I am reminded of when I was 19 and told my dad I wanted to get a motorcycle. He rode a Harley sportster but he was petrified that his little girl would tear herself up on the road. I could see the emotions play in his face as he struggled with how much he wanted to insist that I not do this, but knowing that the more he insisted, the more certain I was to go do it immediately. I was in that phase -- in khakis and army jacket and rock guitar as my mainstays in life -- where that was just likely. Finally getting control, he managed to say calmly, somewhat understated: "OK. Do keep in mind that motorcycles in accidents are very.... unforgiving." Congratulations dad... it worked.)

Now he is 72, my stepmother is early 50s. Watching the utter disaster of my parents' health -- while they eat according to government health agency standards (e.g. suicide) and go through surgery after condition after drug on top of drug and more surgery -- economic hamsters for the pharma-med wheel -- and seeing how many basic conditions are easily corrected by getting decent nutrition rather than yet more drugs -- and how many drugs are disasters beyond measure -- has led to my complete cynicism about "officially approved" anything -- from sources to actual nutrients.

Recommendations are one thing. But the implying that one person(s)/group(s) are The Experts™ even in an online forum has cascade social implications, I hope you realize.

For example, right now, if Jane wants to experiment, hey whatever. If she shares details with others, that might be interesting. If she's interested in various substances, sources, approaches, there's information here or she can ask. If Jane kills herself with it, well hopefully she'll post something on her symptoms prior to kicking off and we'll all learn something. We aren't Jane's mother, so it's really not our business, although if we get to know Jane online we might like to reach out and communicate if we feel strongly about something.

But now imagine that there's an official list of official sources and official nutrients and what someone(s) who wants ("for the good of the children" or some such) to "make sure that people won't hurt themselves." Now let's say that Jane wants to talk about her experiment, but it's maybe risky, or from a source or process or substance that is not "officially ok." Now longecity would have its own political correctness -- rather than being a consortium of any open opinion the way it is now. In short you are trying to take a free-market of communication and impose a form of loose social governmental policies, of course "for everyone else's good."

So my question is this: In your good intention (I'm sure it is), are you hoping to:

a) Arrange it so that others cannot (or would be less supported via peers) do self experimentation as they choose, or

b) Arrange it so that [a] can only be done if they are using sources/substances/approaches you personally find acceptable, or

c) Simply arrange 'a list of recommendations'? Because this already exists, or could, all over the place, so no need to go on about that.

And you clearly have 'gone on' because if you'd merely calmly stated your views you wouldn't have been outed from a thread about it. So if the people you're telling don't want to hear it, you are essentially acting in a way that says: I want to control those other people, but dammit I can't. So I'm going to try and control social opinion to ensure that other people in the future will be pre-controlled by my opinion instead.

Everyone would probably agree that some substances in some dosages or applications or from some sources are a "risk." That's why I love the frekin internet so much: it's like the bangkok market of communications. Every extreme from worst to best case is a potential. That's it's risk, sure. That's also its payoff and its saving grace.

#24 boomer11

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:25 AM

OP, sorry but your being baby.

Is it stupid to injest an untested drug? Yes.

Is it their right to put something potentially dangerous in their bodies? YES

Are they responsible for themselves? YES

Are they responsible for others that do the same risky shit with a drug that has a lethal consequence? NO

We are dealing with adults here. I agree its stupid and risky but so is tons of other stuff in life. Please stop telling people to stop risking their own lives/bodies/wellbeing because IT IS NOT YOUR PLACE. The government does this enough with their silly drug war. People in society need to start taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. Everyone knows what their doing could turn out bad. They've made the choice to roll the dice. Drop it Hitler we're striving to be FREEEEEE
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#25 Xenix

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:27 PM

http://everything2.c...make you normal

And that is all I have to say about that.





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