151 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

Soma, you've got it wrong in post 125... Most people experienced things (nurture) that you didn't. They aren't distracted, a whole new world was being openned to them that was never developed in you. Most people enjoy their existence for that very reason that they were nurtured in that way. Futility in life only exists when there is struggle. Your unnurtured life has left you in a disadvantaged state and defined it as a struggle. This is why you feel the way you do.

[Soma]

They aren't distracted, a whole new world was being openned to them that was never developed in you.

So people don't incessantly distract themself by overworking, watching mindless television,surfing the internet, playing video games, going to sporting events, etc. Have you ever wondered why the human animal has to distract itself all of the time? What is it running from do you think? What can't we stand to think about...so much so that we fill up all of our spare time keeping our minds occupied with trivial entertainment?

Futility in life only exists when there is struggle. Your unnurtured life has left you in a disadvantaged state and defined it as a struggle. This is why you feel the way you do.

Life is not a struggle? Good god man, what planet are you from? Sometime when you are distracting yourself with television, put on a wildlife documentary. Yes, life involves the struggle for survival. The same rules apply in the human world as the animal world. The human animal is still struggling to survive. As long as there are living creatures, they will be caught up in the desparate struggle for life. And yes, it is futile.

Denial is the most addictive of all drugs.

Edited by Soma, 19 June 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[YOLF]

If one is nurtured, all of those things mean something else. That isn't to say that everyone gets nurtured perfectly, just that most people get caught up by their early teenage years at the latest. Many of those things actually would become very beneficial and further nurturing. Trivial entertainment is free or ad sponsored continuing education... or continuing ignorance for one who isn't nurtured. As I've said in my other posts, it takes the intent of others to make or rather raise a person to ignorance.

Hahaha, not human life, at least not in the way you'd probably assume it is given how you see entertainment as trivial. Futility all depends on what you consider success... you've developed in an unnurtured fashion, so it's obvious to me that you just never learned what human life is all about, otherwise you'd also have developed to understand what others are doing, how they are doing it, and what their lives mean to them.

Otherwise, I'm an optimist and I'm planning on living for an indefinite time or choosing my own end.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 19 June 2013 - 05:19 AM.

[Soma]

. you've developed in an unnurtured fashion, so it's obvious to me that you just never learned what human life is all about, otherwise you'd also have developed to understand what others are doing, how they are doing it, and what their lives mean to them.

You continue to base your analysis of what I've written on pure speculation. The presumption that I wasn't proprerly nurtured is dead wrong so you can stop pontificating about that. Of course peoples' lives can have meaning for them. Are you even reading what I am writing? I specifically said that the human being dreams up and projects their own meaning onto their life. Meaning is a thought and that thought is superimposed over a reality that is, in essence, wholly meaningless. Thus, peoples' lives have meaning for them if they ignorant of the fact that meaning is a fantasy. Therein lies the problem for the non-ignorant. Much like being aware of a placebo, a fantasy cannot provide meaning to your life when you know that it is a fantasy. Generally, the more intelligent and inquisitive one is, the more aware they will become...and life-meaning is seen for what it is- a illusory fabrication of the mind, a fantasy. This is where the ignorant may wish to remain ignorant. The sugar pill doesn't work if you know it is a sugar pill. Your fantasies no longer give meaning to life when you know that they are fantasies.

Ok, since you intimate that your nuturing has allowed you to "developed to understand what others are doing, and how they are doing it", let's hear it. Let's hear your understanding of what others are doing and how they are doing it? Yes, please tell us what people's lives mean to them.

Otherwise, I'm an optimist and I'm planning on living for an indefinite time or choosing my own end.

"Choosing my own end"...oh christ, tell me you don't believe in free will.

So let's see: biological life is apparently not defined by the struggle to survive, life is inherently meaningful, and the human animal possesses free will. You must be a fundamentalist christian. I won't even ask if you are, I will just assume that you are and refer to you in this way from now on. That will be annoying won't it. Just like the way you imposed a "lack of nurture" theory to a life that you know absolutely nothing about.

Edited by Soma, 19 June 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[YOLF]

There is meaning to life beyond fantasies for those that where taught that it existed or otherwise learned from their experiences.

I'm not so much well nurtured as I am a good reverse engineer. There are people who understand it and there is a thing called marketing that is used to connect with people in order to sell them things. Understanding how it connects can lead you to understanding what the targetted audience appreciates or lives for.

Free will is more a label than anything else. Something very similar to free will develops as you become less ignorant and develop enough understanding to be free of influence.

Civilized biological life is not defined by a struggle to survive, there can be meaning or purpose if you prefer in life, and you can have free will in certain aspects of your life (you can choose to eat at 5:30 instead of 5 and have a burger instead of a hot dog).

I'm not a fundamentalist christian. I'm not actively connected to any religion and don't consider myself to have any history of being actively religious. I read what they write and I understand it by understanding it's function. But I'm just not interested in participating as I believe the gods are as flawed as they are human. That said, I'm silly enough not to believe in god or dumb enough to go around preaching atheism. I prefer the term, conscientious objector, though I may not have the spelling right.

[socialpiranha]

"The very nature of existence is utterly horrifying...and if you don't think so, then you haven't thought about it ...or at least you haven't thought about it without immersing it in illusions like meaning, purpose, love, etc."



Without coping mechanisms(keeping ourselves busy) we are left to see the raw underbelly of life, the certainty of death of all your loved ones including yourself, eventual loss of everything you care about, savage motivations masquerading as manners and morals, the emptiness of it all.

But when you really examine it, even though these things are more real than the systematic denial of them, they are not true inherently. They are just as empty of truth/reality/meaning as the "superficial coping mechanisms".

In order to be horrifying a thing has to have meaning.

There are three perspectives they vary a bit but for the most part:

Life is meaningful and good

Life has no meaning and is too grotesque to endure(actually a contradiction)

Life is beautiful and grotesque and these things are identical in their lack of truth...read that again

[zph-]

I think it really depends on the type of depression.

If we're talking about atypical depression, there may not be much value to those philosophical contemplations as an explanation for depression. It all boils down to whether you're able to enjoy life and find solutions for things that make you not enjoy life. There is no absolute meaning to life, but if creating it makes you feel good, then the question of whether it's an illusion is irrelevant. You don't know if anything is real, even the word is just a concept, so not using your abilities to create meaning is just a form of self-mutilation.

Some other types of depression often respond well to short-term intervention like psychotherapy and medication. I think unless there are concrete physical causes for a depression or the long term life circumstances "justify" the depression, it will usually respond well to treatment. If on the other hand you don't have what you feel you need for long periods of time, despite trying to get it, it's no surprise you can't get rid of the depression. And of course depression can be both cause and symptom once you have it, which makes the whole thing more difficult and self-reinforcing (which is, I believe, also the short answer for the thread's question), which is why "breaking out of the cycle" (e.g. by a change in environment, stirring up the person's brain chemistry with antidepressants, a new frame of reference through psychotherapy) is a common approach that works for many people whose lives are largely good but have suddenly slipped into depression, e.g. because of an acute crisis, but people with deeper issues will typically "relapse" because their core problems haven't really been addressed.

[Raptor87]

Quickly in reply to Cryonics, check the dictionary definition of manipulation, you are trying to do it to your body as I am to mine - yours on the other hand is much more severe.

Docktor you are still missing the point. You are making a number of mistakes/generalizations (although in this case I do agree with sometime extent - although the guy doesn't want my advice - I'm no Doctor he's totally within reason to ignore all of us - although its clearly this whole hopelessness/attention/change in schema going on).

• You are generalizing to reactive depressions - you get Major Depressive Disorder that doesn't present with any history of abuse, other mental health problems (at least not associated and caused directly by), drug abuse or even a stressor...The only history you do expect to find is that of family history of mental health problems. This is just talking about the very rare 'biological depressions' which respond better to medication. The other type which you do address is the 'mixed' bio-psycho-social depressive disorders. These have been shown via randomized controlled studies many times over to also respond best to...Medication.
• passive reduction in symptoms (as seen in meds) leads to improvement in overall functioning providing the necessary motivation for change - meds give hope as well...many even would prefer to think as what they have as having a physical disease than what they idiotically perceive as a character failure (or w/e) (or at least reducing hopelessness both as a symptom and a natural cognition), in moderate to severe MDD should be hit with meds AND then behavioral therapy. After that cognitive and if there functioning isn't back to normal occupational input as well. In those not of very severe category its best to get in as many in one go as possible (meds and behavior) as cognition naturally improves cognitive therapy
• People CAN'T get over it by themselves regardless of what they are told. Those with a depressive disorder are unable to get better by themselves this is the definition "functional deficit" one of three requirements for the diagnosis of MDD.
• The mind doesn't adapt - the BRAIN adapts (physiological/anatomical changes). That is just me being uber pedantic...sorry, personality trait not always for the best.
• Medication, physical (from surgical to bright light therapy) and sensible supplement use is nearly always the right way to go...COMBINED WITH BEHAVIOUAL-PSYCHO-SOCIAL
• What you are talking about - regardless if it is in the best interests of the patient (for the reasons I laid out above I don't think it is) its LYING to them. Both legally and morally.

Manipulation:
"exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one's own advantage"

What instance of the word are you referring to?

IMO intergenerational depression can result from social or other deficits being passed on or learned and when the smoke of depression clears, this is most commonly (to my assumption) the reason people with a history of depression choose not to have kids of their own (for fear of passing on their learned deficits) and being dependent on someone else (whom they probably don't agree with) to raise their kid where they cannot. Recovering from depression can require generations in this sense and the role of parenting (or a person's mark on the world) can be undermined or just the parent's intentions ignored. Someone might raise their first kid in ignorance and give up on later kids altogether after they learn that their attempts at parenthood are useless and no more than gifts of intention with no actual value. Psychiatric drug use/abuse and letting virtually anyone assume their problems are directly genetic or even in large part genetic in origin just removes some degree of culpability from the psych profession's treatment as they might otherwise result in a loss of grandchildren or even be understood as socially based genocide/eugenics... Psych and neuro are very dangerous sciences the way they conduct themselves. That's why IMO cryonics has to be part of treatment.

I have read all of these posts about depression being equated with delusion and I can't say as though I agree. I would have to posit the contrary- that happiness is delusional. Think about it- what is it about human existence that should confer happiness, contentment, peace, etc? Nothing, whatsoever.

Human existence is basically very degrees of personal suffering for a couple of decades and then you are reducing to nothingness for eternity. I guess if happiness gives you a better chance of surviving until you pass off your genes, than it has an beneficial from an evolutionary perspective. Just because a particular perspective may generate a sense of peace and happiness doesn't make it true (think: religion). Being happy about your own human existence is completely delusional. There is simply nothing to be happy about. Your life has no point whatsoever. Your death will be as meaningul as a pine needle falling from the tree in million acre forest.

We are born, we suffer, we witness untold suffering of those around us, we are enticed with feelings that things could be or should be different, but we know they never will, and then we dissolve into the oblivion of unsconsciousness forever.

Happiness is delusional. There is nothing to be happy about. Never was. Never will be.

To be free then is to realize thought as functional-and detachment from emotional/personal thought.
So for whom do you worry? No one in life and no one in death

Basically, representational thinking deals with the habitual use of mental images at a very subtle level. The major problem with such thinking is that we believe it matches the object it tries to represent. But it doesn't. thererfore , no representation can match our totality-who we are-nature. And as long as we try to visualize this nature, we are just going to run around in circles. Serious Meditation ultimately aims for opening the hand of thought, that is, suspending all judgmental thinking and letting words, ideas, images and thoughts pass by without getting involved in them. To be free then is to realize thought as functional-and detachment from emotional/personal thought which is the cause of much uneccesary suffering. So to be happy leave the madhouse of emotional thought and engage in living as a physical being. That is what ywe are in any case, so realize it and be it.

Mike C.

So to be happy leave the madhouse of emotional thought and engage in living as a physical being.

The so called "leaving the madness of emotional thought" is an old technique otherwise known as denial or willful ignorance. As such, everything you said is fine and well but it doesn't change anything about human existence. I would agree with you in one sense- concepts such as meaning, purpose, reason, and love are all mental abstractions of the human animal and have no existence in the reality of the outer natural world. These are abstract constructs much like a trapezoid or a parallelogram. They seem perfectly real, valid, and relevant, except they can't actually be found in nature unmanipulated by man, i.e., they don't actually exist. The same hold true meaning, purpose, love, justice (fairness), empathy, etc. None of these exist outside of man's head. He has dreamed them up along with all of the other abstractions. They have no existence apart from the mental abstraction that they are.

So, to get back to the stark nature of existence: the human body is incredibly frail and vulnerable. You are born into a violent world seething with natural disasters, famines, and innumerable diseases which will ravage you in an excruciating fashion. Add to that man-made wars, pollution, corruption, human subjugation/slavery, sexual enslavement, ad infinitum. Seriosuly, one could go on and on for pages. Even if manking suddenly decided to be humane and civil towards one another, life would still be unfathomably harsh and cruel. t is just one brutal struggle after another. And we all know how it ends. Obliteration.

Personally, i have never been on this site for life-extension. I originally came here for some health advice. Personally, I wouldn't want to extend my life. Why would you want to extend suffering and misery. That's like somebody in a prisoner-of-war torture camp begging for more torture. No, I am not sadomasochistic enough to want to live as long as possible. Those that enjoy living and are "happy" about the human condition are deeply deluded. When it comes to death or torment, death is always the better option, in my opinion. With death, the ineffable horror that is our existence will finally be extinguished forever.

The problem with leaving the madhouse is that its impossible, you are the madhouse, you dont exist without the madhouse. Meditation is a dead end street. The best you can hope to do is gain some control of the madhouse through understanding the nature of belief and truth.

Yes the human body is fragile and life is ultimately meaningless and empty but on the other hand, the body is extremely resilient and capable of beautiful thoughts and feelings which create meaning by contrast with the inherent meaninglesness and emptiness of life.

Truth is always relative, relative to other truths, where's the truth in that.

I really hate the multiquoting feature on this forum! But I will do my best to make an input on where I wanted to have a say! I just hope that I don't get to distracted from all the clutter.

@Cryo
I think the deficits that lead to social failure or depression or whatever mainly stem from a lack of something. Not having kids is a good choice because why would one wan't to pass over his misery to another generation? At least we have a choice in that case. I agree though with the psych/neuro stuff because I really don't see how they would be able to fix someones genetic makeup without further targeting peoples intellectual capacity, didn't we learn something from lobotomy? Eugenics and Euthanasia is a different thing. But I think that we should be able to have the personal choice when it comes to that, and I do think that it is much needed so we can prevent further suffering! If we would look at humanity and society as a huge organism, then depression and anxiety or lets say suicide, is a good way with dealing with and bringing unnecessary sells to an end, it's called apoptosis as you probably know.

@Soma @Mike C
Then what isn't delusional? We can jump back on forth on this but it doesn't change a thing. Some argue that people depressed have a better sense of realism, other say the opposite! What is real, what is not? This is a dead end street. Meditation is good for a temporary detachment from issues and being in the moment. Totally detaching oneself from life is the same as depriving oneself from who you are. We are cast out in this world and the discussion about fatalism brings a few interesting thoughts to the table, but it tells us the same things and that is that most humans find life harsh, competitive, and without direction. The true meaning that many people find and mention, is through bonding in some aspects, family and other social things come as important if not lifeimportant. Our sociability is very important to us humans. This is what keeps us alive and helps us sustain. Sure I can disconnect myself from my ego and totally detach myself from everything and find life passing me by like a movie, but it won't change the biological aspects that in the end, which provides what makes life meaningful to a degree. There are no valid rules to who we are, but there are rules when it comes to our bounding. Some bond better, some bond for the worst. There is a predetermined structure there to help us- in a system- to save energy and streamline our behavior, for our survival. There are also biological markers that reveal us in where we stand in our community and who is abundant and who is just a waste of energy!

@Socialpianha
I agree, we need to find a meaning and creativity gives us a sense of a "whole". But do know that creativity comes from abundance, not the other way around.The most creativity people I know are those whom are both socially, emotionally and mentally free. They have integrity and are able to stand up for themselves no matter what. The people who are the least creative are also those who lack passion and are the most judgmental, inhibited and depressing. It's like something in life mutilated their souls and they quickly had to learn who they were. People who are like this are also those most prone to anxiety which creates a whole new persona on the original one- through the mirrored self. They become fake, analytical and almost autistic. Sure meditation could help them, but it would also intensify their anxiety which would just make them revert back again. I think the reason why people become like this is because they wan't to block emotional suffering. Suffering that really occurs through social bonding, their are valued being less. Relativity and the purpose of life is determined by the meaning you give it truth and truth.

@Tom
What we are discussing here is has to do with what society wants us to believe in but in the end it's just another way to make money. They are not helping people getting over their true core problems, they are momentarily just making patients assume that things are better "now". Which they often are not, that's why they often fall back off and are put back in to the hands of people that don't care less. Medications, talk therapy, CBT!? There is no dignity in that and IMO is just a bunch of turmoil engineered so we can actually further ignore the cruelty of life.

[Raptor87]

• Hypersensitivity to rejection/criticism
• Self-imposed social isolation
• Extreme shyness or anxiety in social situations, though the person feels a strong desire for close relationships^[10]
• Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus
• Feelings of inadequacy
• Severe low self-esteem
• Self-loathing
• Mistrust of others
• Emotional distancing related to intimacy
• Highly self-conscious
• Self-critical about their problems relating to others
• Problems in occupational functioning
• Lonely self-perception, although others may find the relationship with them meaningful
• Feeling inferior to others
• In some more extreme cases — agoraphobia
• Utilizes fantasy as a form of escapism and to interrupt painful thoughts

sound anything like you?

Yes!

There is controversy as to whether avoidant personality disorder is a distinct disorder from generalized social phobia and it is contended by some that they are merely different conceptualisations of the same disorder, where avoidant personality disorder may represent the more severe form.^[3][4] This is argued because generalized social phobia and avoidant personality disorder have similar diagnostic criteria and may share a similar causation, subjective experience, course, treatment, and identical underlying personality features, such as shyness.^[5][6][

I don't need to quote myself when it comes to the anxiety part.

The diagnosis itself doesn't tell me anything. It's just another medical term and there is no cure for it.

IMO, when you see past the system, you fall outside of it. Understanding your condition from the ultimate root perspective removes you from classification in a sense. Now you're not someone who is a particular list of behaviors and out looks, you're a person who's trapped by loss. The DSM also makes certain assumptions that don't fit anyways. They only way they can "fix" you is to make you happy through ignorance, The DSM criteria is all about getting someone to accept the authority of the shrink so they can be decieved into acceptance and happiness and remain stupified.

I'm past the system because I have crawled myself in to it and out of it. After reading scientific journals, psychology and psychiatric research I have found that they have not done anything to help people dig themselves out of their miserable lives. Stability, sociability, risktaking, aggression, anxiety, passiveness, stress, depression is a matter of biology. Self - esteem and confidence is just social makeup or markers for good healthy genes. We are social animals and the above named factors contribute to well being and self- love! This creates a predisposed social system.

Why we see so many people on SSRI's is because there is evidence that these drugs reduce the activity in the amygdala and limbic system. They really don't understand how these drugs work, the serotonin theory is in my opinion bullshit. If anything these drugs keep certain neurochemicasl- not elevated in the brain- but just floating around there. This means that they really just blunt certain actions which in some sense, make you dull in the head. That's why so many feel like zombies, or they are constantly tired or they sleep a lot when on them! Good luck being stressed or socially anxious when feeling like a tired zombie all the time. Psychology fails at saving people because it's just trying to fix the social makeup- it's the same as telling people to pretend!

If you look at this documentary you will see what I mean. But keep in mind that SSRI's blunt certain action, they don't remove the core problem. Which means that these people can better pretend to have certain genetic features. (If you look at the documentary past 45 min you will see a very shy girl with selective mutism on SSRI's.


As you say, current technology can't do shit! And why would they change anything! Because the more social slaves society has, the better for those sitting on top of the system.
http://www.psycholog...ture-or-nurture

I would be better off if I could go to the docs and tell him what drugs I need. I'm not going to sit there any more and let them tell me shit and give me the lousy drugs just so I will be content about my shitty life while they make money! That's what they want!

My suggestion to everyone is that they fucking should stop dwelling about their problems and see what's possible for them to do, realistically, and forget anything about becoming better at those things they so much wish for.Put that energy on to something else and if it comes to sex, go get a prostitute.

After years of reading in different forums for those who have "psychological problems" I have concluded that people just sit there and they keep on writing the same bullshit over and over again, they go to the shrinks with false hope- and everyone says that, "go to the shrink or doc"- and that shit doesn't help. But it's so ingrained in their mind by the media and commercialism that it's possible to become anything, that it is possible to fix your problems. They are just selling delusional dreams. It's so sad reading when people come back to those forums writing that they "relapsed"- which is not really their fault because it's the doc's who made them delusional in the first place. And it ends up in self- blame. Do you see where psychology fundamentally fails at?

I do hope it’s been writing all of this. Good luck!

I think we stand a like! I will keep myself short because there has been a lot of writing and answering all of the post's trying to make some sense in this is just tiring and I am tired as hell right now. I don't believe that society gives us anxiety, I think that anxiety is just there giving off our rank so we know where to put ourselves and what we are not able to do. I think that being valued is very important, but value has lost it's concept to such degree that the only things that matter these days is our looks and our shallow social "wittyness". I don't care for those things as I know that it's just sad that people are discarding what gives real benefit here to us all. I am asking for something better of me. I know that capacity brings us a step closer to self fulfillment what ever the intellectual premise is, that which in the end gathers those who are likeminded and makes them connect. It's a deeper meaning I guess. i didn't ask for much, I wanted to be able to work on my own terms and level but anxiety deprived me of everything that was my life. Everyone should be able to connect with those who are a like, to have dignity and be able to make a stand for themselves. The other stuff is just nonsense. I lost it all and there is no escaping from it.

I asked why depression is hard to beat and I think I got the answer, it serves a purpose.

Edited by Brainfogged, 22 June 2013 - 09:03 PM.

[TheFountain]

Perhaps re-programming your brain so you become delusional, is the answer.

How could this be the answer?

You cannot unlearn what you have learned when it comes to all the bullshit of society. It is falsifying your reality.

Unfortunately if it is situational depression we are referring to, society as a whole will have to go through some massive changes before we can even begin to address it.

It's not the individual that needs to change, it is the society. And we all fucking know this.

[YOLF]

To quote #135:

Personally if I didn't believe in cryonics, I would want to have kids... self selecting oneself out of the gene pool isn't the answer. I'm waiting to have kids, but there is a definite injustice with the fact that we put so much effort into society and social failures still happen and people suffer as a result. What there is, is a management problem and it will persist until those effected are smart enough to raise their kids above it. The medicine for intellectual deficits (though I'm really not sure it's not just ignorance), you seem smart to me, but it takes nurture to turn raw intelligence into useful intelligence. In fact raw intelligence can just as easily be turned into useless intelligence and be used to disable someone. You recognize that something is wrong, and you've probably thought you had it figured out a few times after combing through tons of info, though if you've been nurtured into ignorance, you've been taught assumptions that will unlock sabotage if you go for self help. That's how they handle it and how a shrink or covert shrink can create the pathology that lasts. Otherwise their work wouldn't be valuable to whoever is paying them to do these things or if they are volunteers, they wouldn't get the social recognition they desire.

Depression is designed to be impenetrable to all but ignorance. You beat it by never accepting ignorance and having enough strength of will not to let it "put you down" as that is what the word means. It's not a choice if you're ignorant, but if you know you have the choice not to take the bait and to keep on learning until you break free. But the people you thought were there to help you aren't and sometimes when you're feeling down and things aren't boding well for you, you'll be offered their bait and a chance to take their ignorance cookie and hide with it. Accept no safety, it doesn't exist for you until you make it through your understand and reverse engineering of the system.

Reply to #137:
It doesn't look like you got it 100%, I'd keep trying to understand it further, in fact, think of it as an ongoing puzzle. But once you dump all of your old assumptions and look at everything in fresh light and assuming total ignorance it gets much more easy. It's hard to let go of assumptions that might feel empowering and I'd start with that. Dump your defenses, they are already useless and are probably even trapping you in your depression. The assumptions that are the lynch pin of your depression will likely be the last to go and the hardest to give up, The good thing is that you see yourself as ignorant or as having a mental handicap, so it will be easier for you than most to escape the depression. Humility is the most effective counter measure and will empower you to the greatest extent. But lose your humility and you could be a nail getting hammered down. The person who praises you may well be the hammer 99.99% of the time. Keep this thread book marked and keep learning from it, the more assumptions you let go of the better off you will be. You've been a fool for the world, now just be a fool for yourself and live by a creed of zero assumptions. There is a funny statement of wisdom that is deceivingly important: "Everything you 'assume' makes an 'ass' of 'u' and 'me.'" I'll have to check on the etymology/translations and see if the word assume can be used in the same way across languages. If I were to assume anything, it would be that the depression cookie is everywhere. Find the cookies and don't take them for their literal meaning.

Perhaps re-programming your brain so you become delusional, is the answer.

How could this be the answer?

You cannot unlearn what you have learned when it comes to all the bullshit of society. It is falsifying your reality.

Unfortunately if it is situational depression we are referring to, society as a whole will have to go through some massive changes before we can even begin to address it.

It's not the individual that needs to change, it is the society. And we all fucking know this.

Keep reading...

Edited by cryonicsculture, 23 June 2013 - 02:23 AM.

[OpaqueMind]

They aren't distracted, a whole new world was being openned to them that was never developed in you.

So people don't incessantly distract themself by overworking, watching mindless television,surfing the internet, playing video games, going to sporting events, etc. Have you ever wondered why the human animal has to distract itself all of the time? What is it running from do you think? What can't we stand to think about...so much so that we fill up all of our spare time keeping our minds occupied with trivial entertainment?

These things could be framed as distractions, if you see life as something to be escaped. Yet they could also be framed as attractions, if life is to be embraced. It is merely a matter of perspective, none of which relies on the assumption of any form of meaning. The human animal, in its basic form, is one that seeks meaning. It seeks to weave together the threads of its existence into a coherent narrative, and often to project beyond into a grand narrative, a guiding principle which reflects its own nature and therefore feels like home. Religion flourishes for this very reason - it addresses the existential needs of humankind. The need to belong is incredibly strong; the fulfilment of the desire to give yourself to, or be a part of, something beyond yourself, is incredibly strong. No human being will be content until he realises this relation.

It could be some higher power, it could be the betterment of society, it could be your friends and family, it could be any number of things. Whether we like it or not, by nature, we are social creatures. But in this aggressively capitalist society, we are becoming progressively more alienated from one another. The default mode of relation to others, due to mental programming is, for many, one of fear and suspicion. At the very least it is apathy. This deprives man of an essential part of his being, his being for-others. The mind is nothing but a mirror; If nothing shines in, nothing will reflect back, and the abyss appears infinite when it is ever-reflected. Give yourself to others, help those around you, volunteer, develop your empathy and stop focusing on yourself. You're right in that there is no inherent meaning to life! The great thing about that is that you now have the freedom to create that meaning yourself. As you said, all meaning is projection from self, not an imposed doctrine which you must bend to accomodate. Just because this meaning is not infinite, not existent in all times and all places, doesn't mean it cannot exist now.

It seems there is a certain contradiction in your approach. On the one hand you claim that life is meaningless, while on the other you judge certain things as trivial. If meaning is void, by what standard do you judge trivialities? Are not all things equally meaningless? Here you have displayed the basic human drive of assuming the possibility of and subsequently seeking meaning in the world. You view the world as if it had meaning but has now been taken away. The sooner you get to grips with and embrace the fact that life has no meaning except that which you create, the sooner you can release yourself from this unneeded pain.

Futility in life only exists when there is struggle. Your unnurtured life has left you in a disadvantaged state and defined it as a struggle. This is why you feel the way you do.

Life is not a struggle? Good god man, what planet are you from? Sometime when you are distracting yourself with television, put on a wildlife documentary. Yes, life involves the struggle for survival. The same rules apply in the human world as the animal world. The human animal is still struggling to survive. As long as there are living creatures, they will be caught up in the desparate struggle for life. And yes, it is futile.

Life is only a struggle if you seek to hold on at all costs. All anxiety is, at root, the fear of annihilation. A quote from the film Jacob's Ladder seems apt - 'If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. If you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.' A saying, from buddhism that also seems relevant is that 'pain is inevitable, suffering is optional'. It is our relation to events that brings us sorrow, never the events themselves. For some invaluable knowledge in this area I highly recommend a small book called 'Mind training', which can be found here.

Edited by OpaqueMind, 23 June 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Thorsten3]

Perhaps re-programming your brain so you become delusional, is the answer.

How could this be the answer?

You cannot unlearn what you have learned when it comes to all the bullshit of society. It is falsifying your reality.

Unfortunately if it is situational depression we are referring to, society as a whole will have to go through some massive changes before we can even begin to address it.

It's not the individual that needs to change, it is the society. And we all fucking know this.

I wasn't honestly suggesting that as a serious solution. I was merely thinking aloud. I mean, how could we unlearn stuff and delude ourselves?

I was bringing forward the concept that being deluded can shield you from things that would otherwise bother you. Perhaps a serious bang on the head might alter your personality to such an extent that delusion could happen, but, that would also be an extremely risky situation.

Oh, and no need for the 'f' word. You were making your points ok without it.

[Mike C]

@Soma wrote
Then what isn't delusional? We can jump back on forth on this but it doesn't change a thing. Some argue that people depressed have a better sense of realism, other say the opposite! What is real, what is not? This is a dead end street. Meditation is good for a temporary detachment from issues and being in the moment. Totally detaching oneself from life is the same as depriving oneself from who you are. We are cast out in this world and the discussion about fatalism brings a few interesting thoughts to the table, but it tells us the same things and that is that most humans find life harsh, competitive, and without direction. The true meaning that many people find and mention, is through bonding in some aspects, family and other social things come as important if not lifeimportant. Our sociability is very important to us humans. This is what keeps us alive and helps us sustain. Sure I can disconnect myself from my ego and totally detach myself from everything and find life passing me by like a movie, but it won't change the biological aspects that in the end, which provides what makes life meaningful to a degree. There are no valid rules to who we are, but there are rules when it comes to our bounding. Some bond better, some bond for the worst. There is a predetermined structure there to help us- in a system- to save energy and streamline our behavior, for our survival. There are also biological markers that reveal us in where we stand in our community and who is abundant and who is just a waste of energy!
End quote
Mike C.
If someone insults you and you agonize over it ten years later that is called ruminating and depressed people do it all the time and it spirals out of control. The mind/brain IS able to proceed with awareness and SEE this as not connected to anything other than a neurological loop that is continually fed and nutured. with meditation this becomes vividly clear. if someone insults you NOW you react and that is a real emotional/thought to what is currently occuring and is not delusional. Please don't make this complicated when it is very simple. Emotional thought can only be real when it is connected with reality. Rumination OTOH is not connected to anything but neural loops developed from memory and is only real in that physiological sense. But intellectualizing it is worthless-a recipe or a picture of food will not feed a starving man and a depressed ruminator will not see the folly of ruminations without the hard work of deep meditation and the direct experience of its (rumination) delusional nature.
Mike C.

[YOLF]

They aren't distracted, a whole new world was being openned to them that was never developed in you.

So people don't incessantly distract themself by overworking, watching mindless television,surfing the internet, playing video games, going to sporting events, etc. Have you ever wondered why the human animal has to distract itself all of the time? What is it running from do you think? What can't we stand to think about...so much so that we fill up all of our spare time keeping our minds occupied with trivial entertainment?

These things could be framed as distractions, if you see life as something to be escaped. Yet they could also be framed as attractions, if life is to be embraced. It is merely a matter of perspective, none of which relies on the assumption of any form of meaning. The human animal, in its basic form, is one that seeks meaning. It seeks to weave together the threads of its existence into a coherent narrative, and often to project beyond into a grand narrative, a guiding principle which reflects its own nature and therefore feels like home. Religion flourishes for this very reason - it addresses the existential needs of humankind. The need to belong is incredibly strong; the fulfilment of the desire to give yourself to, or be a part of, something beyond yourself, is incredibly strong. No human being will be content until he realises this relation.

It could be some higher power, it could be the betterment of society, it could be your friends and family, it could be any number of things. Whether we like it or not, by nature, we are social creatures. But in this aggressively capitalist society, we are becoming progressively more alienated from one another. The default mode of relation to others, due to mental programming is, for many, one of fear and suspicion. At the very least it is apathy. This deprives man of an essential part of his being, his being for-others. The mind is nothing but a mirror; If nothing shines in, nothing will reflect back, and the abyss appears infinite when it is ever-reflected. Give yourself to others, help those around you, volunteer, develop your empathy and stop focusing on yourself. You're right in that there is no inherent meaning to life! The great thing about that is that you now have the freedom to create that meaning yourself. As you said, all meaning is projection from self, not an imposed doctrine which you must bend to accomodate. Just because this meaning is not infinite, not existent in all times and all places, doesn't mean it cannot exist now.

It seems there is a certain contradiction in your approach. On the one hand you claim that life is meaningless, while on the other you judge certain things as trivial. If meaning is void, by what standard do you judge trivialities? Are not all things equally meaningless? Here you have displayed the basic human drive of assuming the possibility of and subsequently seeking meaning in the world. You view the world as if it had meaning but has now been taken away. The sooner you get to grips with and embrace the fact that life has no meaning except that which you create, the sooner you can release yourself from this unneeded pain.

Futility in life only exists when there is struggle. Your unnurtured life has left you in a disadvantaged state and defined it as a struggle. This is why you feel the way you do.

Life is not a struggle? Good god man, what planet are you from? Sometime when you are distracting yourself with television, put on a wildlife documentary. Yes, life involves the struggle for survival. The same rules apply in the human world as the animal world. The human animal is still struggling to survive. As long as there are living creatures, they will be caught up in the desparate struggle for life. And yes, it is futile.

Life is only a struggle if you seek to hold on at all costs. All anxiety is, at root, the fear of annihilation. A quote from the film Jacob's Ladder seems apt - 'If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. If you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.' A saying, from buddhism that also seems relevant is that 'pain is inevitable, suffering is optional'. It is our relation to events that brings us sorrow, never the events themselves. For some invaluable knowledge in this area I highly recommend a small book called 'Mind training', which can be found here.

If you're unsatisfied with life and can't do anything about it, you're only option is to escape it. We're not talking escapism... no one is saying smoke as much pot as possible, shoot some heroin and forget you're troubles until you wind up in a ditch. We're talking about empowering someone with the knowledge to improve their happiness. I don't necessarily have a problem with the statement, I'm just not sure that you're not trying to reframe the argument. Volunteerism is certainly a good idea, though until you understand what assumptions are being made by those you are helping, you could get yourself into trouble or something you don't intend or wouldn't approve of. Some will even say that you're plight is something you volunteered for... Be careful BF.

Overall, I'm afraid this advice is a little incomplete, it's a good lead, but I'd stick with zero assumptions.

I like to think of immortalism as something that will uproot conventional wisdom and replace it. It's a good thing to understand, but I wouldn't cling to it as an ultimate truth, it's just all we have right now and there are many who aren't happy with it and have to choose ignorance as a drug to escape it. Let's make something better. There really isn't any reason to fear death in immortalism. Esp. if you're a funded cryonicist. Pain as the Buddha speaks of it, isn't an individual's pain, but rather the existence of pain. We create this... why create it? Various singularities will allow us to leave it behind, why wouldn't we?

Edited by cryonicsculture, 23 June 2013 - 11:28 PM.

[TheFountain]

Perhaps re-programming your brain so you become delusional, is the answer.

How could this be the answer?

You cannot unlearn what you have learned when it comes to all the bullshit of society. It is falsifying your reality.

Unfortunately if it is situational depression we are referring to, society as a whole will have to go through some massive changes before we can even begin to address it.

It's not the individual that needs to change, it is the society. And we all fucking know this.

I wasn't honestly suggesting that as a serious solution. I was merely thinking aloud. I mean, how could we unlearn stuff and delude ourselves?

I was bringing forward the concept that being deluded can shield you from things that would otherwise bother you. Perhaps a serious bang on the head might alter your personality to such an extent that delusion could happen, but, that would also be an extremely risky situation.

Oh, and no need for the 'f' word. You were making your points ok without it.

I understand where you were coming from, but the thing is once you get past a certain point there is no returning from it. Not that the mind is a linear phenomenon, but it is my experience and that of everyone else I know who sees past the bullshit of the world that once you do you cannot then return to your previous state. Whatever precipitated you seeing the reality of the world was traumatic enough to break you from that delusion you speak of. People who are shielded from said reality tend to be those who have not experienced enough of a trauma yet that they could see through the delusion that's holding them in.

What we need is some avenue of adaptation. Not to the dog shit of society. But to the fact that here we are, and there is society and nothing is going to change the fact that some of us feel like we stick out like mutated thumbs. Nothing short of changing the outlook of that society. And it would seem to begin locally. But what we really need is a support network for anybody who feels "left out" as it were. Being left out does not mean you are a freak or a maladapted inferior. It means that you see shit these ignorant twats do not. And that the ignorant twats are the ones who need to expand their vision a little and become more sensitive to the realities of the world.

Edited by TheFountain, 27 June 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[Raptor87]

Perhaps re-programming your brain so you become delusional, is the answer.

How could this be the answer?

You cannot unlearn what you have learned when it comes to all the bullshit of society. It is falsifying your reality.

Unfortunately if it is situational depression we are referring to, society as a whole will have to go through some massive changes before we can even begin to address it.

It's not the individual that needs to change, it is the society. And we all fucking know this.

I wasn't honestly suggesting that as a serious solution. I was merely thinking aloud. I mean, how could we unlearn stuff and delude ourselves?

I was bringing forward the concept that being deluded can shield you from things that would otherwise bother you. Perhaps a serious bang on the head might alter your personality to such an extent that delusion could happen, but, that would also be an extremely risky situation.

Oh, and no need for the 'f' word. You were making your points ok without it.

I understand where you were coming from, but the thing is once you get past a certain point there is no returning from it. Not that the mind is a linear phenomenon, but it is my experience and that of everyone else I know who sees past the bullshit of the world that once you do you cannot then return to your previous state. Whatever precipitated you seeing the reality of the world was traumatic enough to break you from that delusion you speak of. People who are shielded from said reality tend to be those who have not experienced enough of a trauma yet that they could see through the delusion that's holding them in.

What we need is some avenue of adaptation. Not to the dog shit of society. But to the fact that here we are, and there is society and nothing is going to change the fact that some of us feel like we stick out like mutated thumbs. Nothing short of changing the outlook of that society. And it would seem to begin locally. But what we really need is a support network for anybody who feels "left out" as it were. Being left out does not mean you are a freak or a maladapted inferior. It means that you see shit these ignorant twats do not. And that the ignorant twats are the ones who need to expand their vision a little and become more sensitive to the realities of the world.

I do not know if the ignorant twats care! Perhaps we need a rougher society? Who determines which model we should follow in the end? As long as we prevent suffering! If we have a rougher society then there is no place for the "weak" and they get weeded out.

[YOLF]

Perhaps re-programming your brain so you become delusional, is the answer.

How could this be the answer?

You cannot unlearn what you have learned when it comes to all the bullshit of society. It is falsifying your reality.

Unfortunately if it is situational depression we are referring to, society as a whole will have to go through some massive changes before we can even begin to address it.

It's not the individual that needs to change, it is the society. And we all fucking know this.

I wasn't honestly suggesting that as a serious solution. I was merely thinking aloud. I mean, how could we unlearn stuff and delude ourselves?

I was bringing forward the concept that being deluded can shield you from things that would otherwise bother you. Perhaps a serious bang on the head might alter your personality to such an extent that delusion could happen, but, that would also be an extremely risky situation.

Oh, and no need for the 'f' word. You were making your points ok without it.

I understand where you were coming from, but the thing is once you get past a certain point there is no returning from it. Not that the mind is a linear phenomenon, but it is my experience and that of everyone else I know who sees past the bullshit of the world that once you do you cannot then return to your previous state. Whatever precipitated you seeing the reality of the world was traumatic enough to break you from that delusion you speak of. People who are shielded from said reality tend to be those who have not experienced enough of a trauma yet that they could see through the delusion that's holding them in.

What we need is some avenue of adaptation. Not to the dog shit of society. But to the fact that here we are, and there is society and nothing is going to change the fact that some of us feel like we stick out like mutated thumbs. Nothing short of changing the outlook of that society. And it would seem to begin locally. But what we really need is a support network for anybody who feels "left out" as it were. Being left out does not mean you are a freak or a maladapted inferior. It means that you see shit these ignorant twats do not. And that the ignorant twats are the ones who need to expand their vision a little and become more sensitive to the realities of the world.

I do not know if the ignorant twats care! Perhaps we need a rougher society? Who determines which model we should follow in the end? As long as we prevent suffering! If we have a rougher society then there is no place for the "weak" and they get weeded out.

It's not the weak who are weeded out it is those who are undesirable, be it by behavior or other things. Eugenics in any nature or scope is the problem. What you've experienced is the malintent of "healthcare" towards children and the belief that it's okay to do this kind of thing as long as they make up for it. Though being able to "make up for it" is just as inane as the idea of eugenics in any form. The fact of the matter is that some composite matrix of environmental factors and genetics in the broad and encompassing sense determine how they will develop. In one environment a particular set of genetic factors will be confident and in another set of environmental factors (I'm referring to available nutrition etc rather than socially engineered factors which are established in short sight and ignorance ) will be dependent on their undesirable traits to survive in a well to do lifestyle of their own achievements.

Anything that could even remotely be considered eugenics is just bunk.

Corporate leaders aren't so much psychopaths as the traits of undesirables that would otherwise be able to let them find a lavish lifestyle are given to them and at the same time taken from others and replaced with ignorance. What happens is that the corporate leaders are trained to be successful at any cost while the undesirables are studied so their traits can be emulated. This creates in the person chosen to be a corporate leader the power that they have. This is another function of religious and community groups and why they are often so provocative and use such "spirit" in their interactions as silly as it might seem. You have more assumptions to drop before everything becomes clear to you.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 27 June 2013 - 05:47 PM.

[YOLF]

Perhaps re-programming your brain so you become delusional, is the answer.

How could this be the answer?

You cannot unlearn what you have learned when it comes to all the bullshit of society. It is falsifying your reality.

Unfortunately if it is situational depression we are referring to, society as a whole will have to go through some massive changes before we can even begin to address it.

It's not the individual that needs to change, it is the society. And we all fucking know this.

I wasn't honestly suggesting that as a serious solution. I was merely thinking aloud. I mean, how could we unlearn stuff and delude ourselves?

I was bringing forward the concept that being deluded can shield you from things that would otherwise bother you. Perhaps a serious bang on the head might alter your personality to such an extent that delusion could happen, but, that would also be an extremely risky situation.

Oh, and no need for the 'f' word. You were making your points ok without it.

I understand where you were coming from, but the thing is once you get past a certain point there is no returning from it. Not that the mind is a linear phenomenon, but it is my experience and that of everyone else I know who sees past the bullshit of the world that once you do you cannot then return to your previous state. Whatever precipitated you seeing the reality of the world was traumatic enough to break you from that delusion you speak of. People who are shielded from said reality tend to be those who have not experienced enough of a trauma yet that they could see through the delusion that's holding them in.

What we need is some avenue of adaptation. Not to the dog shit of society. But to the fact that here we are, and there is society and nothing is going to change the fact that some of us feel like we stick out like mutated thumbs. Nothing short of changing the outlook of that society. And it would seem to begin locally. But what we really need is a support network for anybody who feels "left out" as it were. Being left out does not mean you are a freak or a maladapted inferior. It means that you see shit these ignorant twats do not. And that the ignorant twats are the ones who need to expand their vision a little and become more sensitive to the realities of the world.

Something else that is interesting to note in this situation is trauma. Trauma is used as a teaching tool for our young. We see grand parents and great grand parents die and, except in the case of child immortalists and perhaps a few other types, we see hope that technology will allow us not to die and the "value" of the deaths of others as a teaching tool is lost on us. They just died, but if we try as hard as we can, we will defeat death and aging which inhibits the activities of the aged. So I guess we learn differently from the lesson. But understanding that difference clues us in on the reasons why people think we need death. Because it can be that death which helps us to understand the world and the purpose of life as it currently exists among the majority of people (Born>raise kids>die). And this method of life is full of things that make it interesting and many people, esp. in their old age have come to regard it as such a joy to live in this cycle of death that they regard anything else a compromised existence.

[TheFountain]

Perhaps re-programming your brain so you become delusional, is the answer.

How could this be the answer?

You cannot unlearn what you have learned when it comes to all the bullshit of society. It is falsifying your reality.

Unfortunately if it is situational depression we are referring to, society as a whole will have to go through some massive changes before we can even begin to address it.

It's not the individual that needs to change, it is the society. And we all fucking know this.

I wasn't honestly suggesting that as a serious solution. I was merely thinking aloud. I mean, how could we unlearn stuff and delude ourselves?

I was bringing forward the concept that being deluded can shield you from things that would otherwise bother you. Perhaps a serious bang on the head might alter your personality to such an extent that delusion could happen, but, that would also be an extremely risky situation.

Oh, and no need for the 'f' word. You were making your points ok without it.

I understand where you were coming from, but the thing is once you get past a certain point there is no returning from it. Not that the mind is a linear phenomenon, but it is my experience and that of everyone else I know who sees past the bullshit of the world that once you do you cannot then return to your previous state. Whatever precipitated you seeing the reality of the world was traumatic enough to break you from that delusion you speak of. People who are shielded from said reality tend to be those who have not experienced enough of a trauma yet that they could see through the delusion that's holding them in.

What we need is some avenue of adaptation. Not to the dog shit of society. But to the fact that here we are, and there is society and nothing is going to change the fact that some of us feel like we stick out like mutated thumbs. Nothing short of changing the outlook of that society. And it would seem to begin locally. But what we really need is a support network for anybody who feels "left out" as it were. Being left out does not mean you are a freak or a maladapted inferior. It means that you see shit these ignorant twats do not. And that the ignorant twats are the ones who need to expand their vision a little and become more sensitive to the realities of the world.

I do not know if the ignorant twats care! Perhaps we need a rougher society? Who determines which model we should follow in the end? As long as we prevent suffering! If we have a rougher society then there is no place for the "weak" and they get weeded out.

That's the point though. It's not about whether the ignorant twats care or not. And the fact that you are making it about that only shows maladaptation.

And that is not to say that it is easy. We all know how lonely it feels being the one who sees things as they are. But instead of worrying about the ignorant and their take on matters (which is non-existent) we ought to concern our efforts with opening them to the truth.

And the 'weak' in many ways are these ignorants you continue to reference.

[socialpiranha]

Perhaps re-programming your brain so you become delusional, is the answer.

How could this be the answer?

You cannot unlearn what you have learned when it comes to all the bullshit of society. It is falsifying your reality.

Unfortunately if it is situational depression we are referring to, society as a whole will have to go through some massive changes before we can even begin to address it.

It's not the individual that needs to change, it is the society. And we all fucking know this.

I wasn't honestly suggesting that as a serious solution. I was merely thinking aloud. I mean, how could we unlearn stuff and delude ourselves?

I was bringing forward the concept that being deluded can shield you from things that would otherwise bother you. Perhaps a serious bang on the head might alter your personality to such an extent that delusion could happen, but, that would also be an extremely risky situation.

Oh, and no need for the 'f' word. You were making your points ok without it.

I understand where you were coming from, but the thing is once you get past a certain point there is no returning from it. Not that the mind is a linear phenomenon, but it is my experience and that of everyone else I know who sees past the bullshit of the world that once you do you cannot then return to your previous state. Whatever precipitated you seeing the reality of the world was traumatic enough to break you from that delusion you speak of. People who are shielded from said reality tend to be those who have not experienced enough of a trauma yet that they could see through the delusion that's holding them in.

What we need is some avenue of adaptation. Not to the dog shit of society. But to the fact that here we are, and there is society and nothing is going to change the fact that some of us feel like we stick out like mutated thumbs. Nothing short of changing the outlook of that society. And it would seem to begin locally. But what we really need is a support network for anybody who feels "left out" as it were. Being left out does not mean you are a freak or a maladapted inferior. It means that you see shit these ignorant twats do not. And that the ignorant twats are the ones who need to expand their vision a little and become more sensitive to the realities of the world.

I do not know if the ignorant twats care! Perhaps we need a rougher society? Who determines which model we should follow in the end? As long as we prevent suffering! If we have a rougher society then there is no place for the "weak" and they get weeded out.

That's the point though. It's not about whether the ignorant twats care or not. And the fact that you are making it about that only shows maladaptation.

And that is not to say that it is easy. We all know how lonely it feels being the one who sees things as they are. But instead of worrying about the ignorant and their take on matters (which is non-existent) we ought to concern our efforts with opening them to the truth.

And the 'weak' in many ways are these ignorants you continue to reference.

well said my friend

[Raptor87]

Perhaps re-programming your brain so you become delusional, is the answer.

How could this be the answer?

You cannot unlearn what you have learned when it comes to all the bullshit of society. It is falsifying your reality.

Unfortunately if it is situational depression we are referring to, society as a whole will have to go through some massive changes before we can even begin to address it.

It's not the individual that needs to change, it is the society. And we all fucking know this.

I wasn't honestly suggesting that as a serious solution. I was merely thinking aloud. I mean, how could we unlearn stuff and delude ourselves?

I was bringing forward the concept that being deluded can shield you from things that would otherwise bother you. Perhaps a serious bang on the head might alter your personality to such an extent that delusion could happen, but, that would also be an extremely risky situation.

Oh, and no need for the 'f' word. You were making your points ok without it.

I understand where you were coming from, but the thing is once you get past a certain point there is no returning from it. Not that the mind is a linear phenomenon, but it is my experience and that of everyone else I know who sees past the bullshit of the world that once you do you cannot then return to your previous state. Whatever precipitated you seeing the reality of the world was traumatic enough to break you from that delusion you speak of. People who are shielded from said reality tend to be those who have not experienced enough of a trauma yet that they could see through the delusion that's holding them in.

What we need is some avenue of adaptation. Not to the dog shit of society. But to the fact that here we are, and there is society and nothing is going to change the fact that some of us feel like we stick out like mutated thumbs. Nothing short of changing the outlook of that society. And it would seem to begin locally. But what we really need is a support network for anybody who feels "left out" as it were. Being left out does not mean you are a freak or a maladapted inferior. It means that you see shit these ignorant twats do not. And that the ignorant twats are the ones who need to expand their vision a little and become more sensitive to the realities of the world.

I do not know if the ignorant twats care! Perhaps we need a rougher society? Who determines which model we should follow in the end? As long as we prevent suffering! If we have a rougher society then there is no place for the "weak" and they get weeded out.

That's the point though. It's not about whether the ignorant twats care or not. And the fact that you are making it about that only shows maladaptation.

And that is not to say that it is easy. We all know how lonely it feels being the one who sees things as they are. But instead of worrying about the ignorant and their take on matters (which is non-existent) we ought to concern our efforts with opening them to the truth.

And the 'weak' in many ways are these ignorants you continue to reference.

I dont think it matters who we expose to "the truth" and suffering will always be there, whetever it comes from a clean cut force or a prolonged misery due to passiveness! I really dont care either! This post isn't about who does what but why so many are disabled these days. The other stuff is just blame, either we blame them or ourselves for our mistrust or society as whole! Or the ones complaining. But perhaps I should feel guilty for not shutting up? Either way it doesnt matter, I wish I could do something about it but I cant! We live in a world these days where chances are going slim and by all means, why not. Question is if we deserve a chance anymore! I wish there was one for myself, although I am not so bothered by my life but the circuimstanses that has happened due to myself and how I am. I wish I was stronger, but it seems that is also relative these days, relative to what makes me unhappy. I am not that pessimistic about it though, I do wonder though how I will feel about this tomorrow or next week! This has turned in to a very interesting thread so it wasnt all that bad!

Edited by Brainfogged, 27 June 2013 - 09:56 PM.

[Layberinthius]

Common (as in common-cold) non-chemically based Depression is a symptom of a far greater disease afflicting our society as a whole.

As a result of a lifetime of badgering the young mind we are isolated and confused even before we make our first friend in this god forsaken soulless corporate world.

Mass consumerism is not a way of life, Fight Club is correct in that life is not about the consumption or value of personal posessions but in my opinion it is the atheistic and scientific pursuit of knowledge and the understanding of more and more never ending problems to solve and riddles to conqueor.

Logic plays a huge part in my psychology, without logic I would have never survived the last 15 years of bitter torment and torture that my father put me through, it has not made me a better person for those experiences, quite the contrary, I have lost a great deal of my own individualistic boyish personality and my own sanity surrounding certian issues.

Yet I still persist with life? Why? Because there is and always shall be more things to learn, newer things to understand, more challenging problems to solve.

You would not believe what I have been through, I was an emotional and spiritual wreck ages 11-15, I gave up on religion completely at age 12, with a great deal of anger from my father for doing so, my father tortured me with taunts and chants to, in his mind, try and get me back into religion, but I refused, I fought back. My mind wandered around endlessly, what felt like millions of years to me, and the conclusion that I had come up with was that there is no point in engaging somebody so hopelessly angry at me, someone so hopelessly programmed into believing that they are helping me by hating and shunning me (I and my family were Jehovah's Witnesses).

What made me persist? Hormones, that and the urge to learn about new things, I was a teenager god dammit and I wanted to make something of my life! So I fought, and fought and fought, for a decade, 2 decades now. and I am still fighting with him on an almost daily basis.

Our fighting has brought with it a great deal of emotional pain, physical pain with which I can feel every day in my head, it has caused huge levels of stress all throughout my life, yet I continue to go on? I continue to persist? Why? Because there will never be an end to the mysteries with which I can uncover and discover. But only if I survive.

Only if I survive will I be able to encounter these new mysteries, these new discoveries. I cannot surely encounter them if I am dead, and I sure as hell cannot enjoy them if I am depressed. Which is why I am not dead, and which is why I am no longer depressed.

What you have read here is my logical reasoning to continue living, by posting it I hope to help others out there maintain a logical state of mind.

I'm sure the next line will send chills up my spine when I read it in 100 years time, or more, but you guys need to know aswell, when I was driving in my car with my mother the other day she said "its just not logical" when mentioning something about my father. I slammed the steering wheel with my left hand and proudly exclaimed "Yes!, Yes! dammit!. Logic will set you free!". Why did I do that? Because she is in a dogma at the moment, a religious dogma and she is trapped inside.

Logic can be a curse or it can be a blessing. If you follow the logical steps towards deluding yourself into believing that there is a god, then that is what you will do. And if you follow the logical steps towards setting yourself free from a horrible archaic demented masochistic controlling cult, then you can never ever go back, even if you force yourself to.

I can only speak from personal experience, but this logical staircase can work for anything, to get you out of anywhere, no matter how deep the depression.

That and exercise and lots of it, but don't overdo it, your knees and joints only have a finite life expectancy before they wear down and start to grind.

Edited by Layberinthius, 14 August 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[nowayout]

Yes, depression certainly has something to do with the society. For example, comparative studies have shown Mexico to have far less depression than the U.S. In my experience of two places where I have lived a long time, the people in the (Northeast) States are very depressed compared to, say, people in South Africa. They are also depressing - living in the (Northeast) States, the people just drag you down after a few years. That is my experience, and I know that things may perhaps be different in, say, California. I suspect climate has something to do with it, but climate is not the whole story - the sociopolitical situation in the U.S. has become so unretrievably toxic that it is just hard to be there and not be affected, but also, people in the U.S. are really not friendly compared to other places. Sure, you may get more superficial politeness, but real friendliness, not so much.

So the best cure for depression may actually be to move. It may actually also be cheaper in the long run.

Edited by nowayout, 14 August 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[Layberinthius]

Yes, depression certainly has something to do with the society. For example, comparative studies have shown Mexico to have far less depression than the U.S. In my experience of two places where I have lived a long time, the people in the (Northeast) States are very depressed compared to, say, people in South Africa. They are also depressing - living in the (Northeast) States, the people just drag you down after a few years. That is my experience, and I know that things may perhaps be different in, say, California. I suspect climate has something to do with it, but climate is not the whole story - the sociopolitical situation in the U.S. has become so unretrievably toxic that it is just hard to be there and not be affected, but also, people in the U.S. are really not friendly compared to other places. Sure, you may get more superficial politeness, but real friendliness, not so much.

So the best cure for depression may actually be to move. It may actually also be cheaper in the long run.

I have mentioned logic a great deal, but I have a saying inside my own mind "Do not forget that you are human, as a result you have the needs of a human being, that means socialization, sexual release, conversation with another human being, entertainment."

That is what is missing, at least from society down here in Australia. If you do not speak act and talk like a tradie or 'bogan' you are shunned here, you are considered weak and "f-wordy" and have apsolutley no value whatsoever to anyone else.

That is what the problem is. It is thousands of years of dogma and belief structures which are now working against our society and preventing it from progressing beyond our own modern caveman days.

Consumerism plays a huge role in making this mechanism possible, the cogs of its action are driven by valuing and evaluating the worth of another human being by the value of their posessions. That is a horrible illogical step and a fatal mistake which I believe as a society we have taken. and it may very well be our own downfall.

It has worked in the past to our social advantage, when money and resources were plentiful, and overpopulation wasn't a serious issue, but now that people are plentiful and resources/money and space are scarce, it is now working against us.

Maybe that is what the romans did wrong? I don't know for sure, I may sound educated but I am completely self taught.

Edited by Layberinthius, 14 August 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[Guardian4981]

I think depression is hard to beat because it has multiple channels of origin that are not always mutually exclusive.

If someone is diabetic you give them insulin, if they have a missing leg you give them a wheelchair.

One aspect of depression is balance of the neurotransmitters. Many doctors make the mistake of prescribing an ssri when perhaps the person really is short on dopamine, or vice versa.

Another and perhaps more challenging aspect of depression is the persons thougth patterns, childhood, society, etc. This is the part that is very difficult to define and change.

There also is somewhat of an ethical dilemna, hardly anyone would argue against someone taking insulin. But for some, there depression may be linked to intergral part of who they are. For example someone may be such a devoted christian that others around them not being religous causes them to be depressed.

I also personally feel that there is some kind of link between ones Intelligence and how prone they are to depression. There is alot of truth to the ignorance is bliss quite. I often find then when I am happpy something in my often says you can't be this happy, there is much to worry about an analyze. In a sense, being happy is also a leap of faith into vulnerability. A happy man will be more likely to marry someone who is really not right for him, a happy man is more likely to overpay for something, etc.

[nowayout]

I am quite sure depression is more than just neurotransmitters. Rather, it has to do with wiring and though patterns.

There is a theory that when SSRI antidepressants work, it is because they decrease negative and defeatist rumination. As I understand it, by affecting neurotransmitters they essentially reduce your ability to concentrate and ruminate for very long on negative thoughts. This eventually would cause an effective rewiring by affecting synaptic weights. There is some research on this that seems quite convincing. For one thing, it would explain why SSRIs take so long to work (when they do). Some cognitive approaches to depression try to do the same thing.

[Guardian4981]

While I think your/others theory about thought patterns has alot of value, I also do not feel depression is solely a "thinking" illness.


I think its a partnership, your neurotransmitters can help your thoughts, and your thoughts can help your neurotransmitters. But I think of one or the other is too far off, the other alone is unlikely to bring the whole up to health.

[Layberinthius]

Common depression is a result of society's failures and overpopulation putting a huge pressure on all of us youngsters to perform in impossible situations which would make even the strongest go mad, and they do.

there is a huge problem with anti-depressants when talking about its chemical makeup, they cause permanent irreversable brain damage and they are being prescribed to everyone like candy, this is my personal opinion and I am not a doctor and I dont care if you or anyone is offended for me sharing my opinion. If you feel that you seriously genuinely have depression then SEE A DOCTOR, this advice is NOT for people who genuinely have a problem but for the people who get caught up in being diagnosed with depression but in actuality do not have depression.

DO NOT read this if you genuinely are depressed.

I have taken 8 different kinds of anti-depressants and every single one of them has gradually dragged me down to a mental state that is going to be very difficult to deal with for the rest of my life.

the worst thing that they have done is basically delete my childhood imagination, which I had managed to keep protected from the outside world for 18 years, until one time a psychiatrist perscribed me high levels of Prothiaden when I was 18 and it was gone forever.

When I thought about suicide while coming off of it i was thinking at the time "oh my god, what kind of damage has been done? why cant i imagine anymore? why are my feelings and emotions completely gone?" These thoughts were a result of my own careful examination and observation of my mental state during the time that I was on them.

I am lucky that I have gotten over it and realised that the 'depression' that I suffered was merely just having to deal with my father and my parents and life as a whole, but nothing that had anything to do at all with a chemical problem in my brain, but I am still a bitter man for it, and the only reason why I continued to take anti-depressants was because I was progressivley getting worse as a result of having taken anti-depressants previously without the power of my imagination to help me through life anymore, not because I was genetically inclined to depression, but because I now had brain damage and I had to take care of the depression as a result of that!

But on the flipside of the coin the anti-depressants did calm my mind, my mind at the time was a high paced and very high performance machine, thinking about many things at a time (a result of ADD I believe) and I was considered to be a genius by anyone who spoke to me. I could solve any problem that anyone had with computers or if they wanted to know anything about science I could tell them a great deal about any subject, this is what I was like at 18!

But now I no longer have the benefits of having a hyperactive imagination anymore, so I have lost a great deal of who I thought I was, I was unique and now I am nothing but a dumbass regular person.

A good analogy of how I feel about this is something equivalent to you owning a Ferrari and you have built this car in your garage for 10 years, then all of a sudden a big corporation and the police comes into your house and destroys everything infront of your eyes, then they kill your mother and father infront of your eyes, then they kill your cat and torture it. Then they take a grinder and thermite to your Ferrari. Then they disfigure your face by throwing acid onto your face and torture you for a further 8 years and force you to take drugs that you dont want to take, then they tell you that its for your own good and that if you stop taking them they will lock you up in a prison and all of your friends will think your crazy and you will never ever have a girlfriend, never ever have a friend ever again, because they think you are nuts and dangerous to be around.

When it boils down to it, I was suffering from ADD, but the doctors were too much of a dumbass and all I had access to was exhausted and idiotic medicare paid psychiatrists who just dont care about anyone but themselves and their own pockets and will go to great lengths to get as many people on drugs as possible because they are paid by the drug companies. And I am not one of those nuts who is schitzo, I am just a guy with ADD, I dont even have depression, it was all a lie.

I would gladly sue the crap out of every drug company in existence and every psychiatrist that I have ever met if I had the money to do so, but because I am poor I am not capable to fight back against them and THEY KNOW THIS.
you are supposed to improve in your life, not go backwards and be forced into a mental hospital, I am not schitzo but I think that something really scary is going on here. as a result of mental health care in Australia I am certian that there is an entire generation of previously well performing teenagers that are now criminals and have been thrown into jail simply because they react badly to anti-depressants.
I am now as a broken mind trying to pick up the pieces and put my mind back to what it once was, when it boils down to it, I have a bad father, a very bad father, who should have never been allowed back into the home when he was kicked out of it 10 years ago, thats all that is wrong with me, that and ADD.
I dont take illegal drugs, I dont smoke anymore.
I take strength from the fact that I have not gone insane, that I am mentally stable and that I enjoy life. But I know this, modern society is a meat grinder and I will never trust anyone who is a part of the consumerist system ever again. They are extremely selfish, to the point of being murderously so, people today are acting like vicious animals and have apsolutley no compassion at all unless they are paid to be compassionate.

This is why isolationism is a good idea. not because I want to be an isolationist, on the contrary I get out regularly and socialize quite a bit, but the reason why isolationism is a good idea is because the doctors dont actually know a single fucking thing that is going on in the human brain, all that they are really doing is guessing and taking shotgun approaches to diseases and then perscribing drugs far and wide for illnesses which only a small percentage of the population actually really has.

Fact of the matter is, we are nature-born people, but because we are all born inside of a hospital or the backseat of a car, all of a sudden we are now a product of the corporations and have apsolutley no soul (or shouldnt have, if you do please sign in your soul at the next convenient time, or you will be fined $500) and if you do not conform you will be killed or tortured until you go entirely mad.

FACT2: If i wanted to give up my citizenship, I couldnt legally do so. if I wanted to go back to nature, I couldnt legally do so because this entire country is a prison, you can go back to nature only for a short period of time at any part of the year, but you cannot go back to nature full time.

FACT3: If you even THINK about self defence, THINK about owning weapons, you are considered to be a crazy person by most people who are INSIDE the system.

FACT4: people who think that the system is the ONLY WAY TO BE DOING THINGS, that there is apsolutley no other way to do things except for their way and if you do anything beyond what they say, that you should be shot, are the most dangerous people on the face of this planet, white scared middle class people who are some of the most hyper-selfish, self-vindicative, self-validating, criminal-gangster-culture worshipping evil bastards on the face of the planet and you will live a long life by avoiding them.

FACT5: The people from FACT4, STOP HAVING KIDS! You are destroying the planet for ALL OF US including your selfish stupid little bastard consumerist children! Consumerism is NOT A WAY OF LIFE. Consumerism is NOT a Religion! STOP POLLUTING the world with BABIES!

FACT6: Our politicians fucking LOVE these kinds of people, because the ONLY THING that is lifting up our fucking economy and our society are these kids and you know what they grow up to be? Another McDonalds peddling retail store working minimum wage SLAVE.

FACT7: We are all slaves, we all live in prisons that we have to build ourselves and we all watch the same boob tube which shows us nautral and normal looking national parks, we ALL watch the same pre-programmed shit which brainwashes us into thinking that everything is perfect, everything is fine, everything is normal, IT IS NOT.

FACT8: Don't lose your head.
Just because I am being so patriotic that I am telling it like it is, does NOT mean that you should be just as outspoken as me, these people will EAT YOU ALIVE and completely destroy your life and torture you until you are DEAD if you even THINK about talking about any of this, about talking about any of these issues!

FACT9: We are fucked, but stay calm.
It will all come to an end when we can no longer afford to feed ourselves, simply do your best to ride it out, gain skills and work on your mental skills, and if you can, work on your physical body, when the time comes to quit society completely, if you can afford to escape, then do so, but if you cannot, keep a reliable car, keep it filled up, and keep at least 2 jerry cans of fuel on your property. SO that when you need to get out, you can.

Conclusion:
There isnt a damn thing that we can do about society but we can work on ourselves.

The most important thing that you can do for yourself is start growing your own food in secret, at home, keep it secret from your neighbours, hydroponics is awesome, if the cops want to have a look then let them have a look, its not illegal to grow your own food yet.

Work on your mind (dont need to say this on a site like longecity.com)

Filter your water! Get a Reverse Osmosis filter. God knows how many pollutants there are in tap water, NO it is NOT better than bottled water, infact most tap water goes through highly polluted old pipes which are hundreds of years old and infact my tap water has a high concentration of phosphorous and lead!

Filter the water that you use on your crops, or use rainwater, but make sure it filters out bird droppings or you could get sick.

Buy warm clothes and cut back on heating costs and expenses, become more energy efficient. Buy a Toyota 4 cylinder WAGON and give up the SUV.

Buy your groceries online and have them delivered (if you need even need them!)

Cut back on your online presence, do not let out the grand news that your crop of food has just sprouted fruit! No matter just how much this sounds like schitzo thinking, trust me its a sane choice, EVERYONE is on social networking sites these days, even criminals and the police.

Thats all that I can think about right now./Thats all that I can rant about right now.

Quickstart guide to escaping the matrix:
#1 Filter your water with an RO filter, get your minerals from your food, not your water.
#2 Stop watching advertising on television and start watching only pre-recorded material, this cuts out the outside world from your own mind by a great degree, pirate if necessary, but use a proxy like ipredator.
#3 Stop listening to your friends and start listening to yourself more, become more introverted but do not become selfish, become more closed off and make up your own mind about topics.
#4 Stop buying shit that you dont need and think hard and long about wether or not you really need to buy something, consider that you may have a problem with buying things inorder to cope with feeling sad (notice I didn't say depression?). Anti-depressants are not the answer for most people, if you think you need them, maybe focus on your diet in addition to taking advice from doctors.
#5 Disconnect with society and reconnect with nature, go CAMPING and take walks, go fishing and visit farms.

Edited by Layberinthius, 21 August 2013 - 10:45 AM.

[Layberinthius]

This version is edited a bit, I ran out of time before I could cut it up a bit.

Common depression is a result of society's failures and overpopulation putting a huge pressure on all of us youngsters to perform in impossible situations which would make even the strongest go mad, and they do.

there is a huge problem with anti-depressants when talking about its chemical makeup, they cause permanent irreversable brain damage and they are being prescribed to everyone like candy, this is my personal opinion and I am not a doctor and I dont care if you or anyone is offended for me sharing my opinion. If you feel that you seriously genuinely have depression then SEE A DOCTOR, this advice is NOT for people who genuinely have a problem but for the people who get caught up in being diagnosed with depression but in actuality do not have depression.

DO NOT read this if you genuinely are depressed.

I have taken 8 different kinds of anti-depressants and every single one of them has gradually dragged me down to a mental state that is going to be very difficult to deal with for the rest of my life.

the worst thing that they have done is basically delete my childhood imagination, which I had managed to keep protected from the outside world for 18 years, until one time a psychiatrist perscribed me high levels of Prothiaden when I was 18 and it was gone forever.

When I thought about suicide while coming off of it i was thinking at the time "oh my god, what kind of damage has been done? why cant i imagine anymore? why are my feelings and emotions completely gone?" These thoughts were a result of my own careful examination and observation of my mental state during the time that I was on them.

I am lucky that I have gotten over it and realised that the 'depression' that I suffered was merely just having to deal with my father and my parents and life as a whole, but nothing that had anything to do at all with a chemical problem in my brain, but I am still a bitter man for it, and the only reason why I continued to take anti-depressants was because I was progressivley getting worse as a result of having taken anti-depressants previously without the power of my imagination to help me through life anymore, not because I was genetically inclined to depression, but because I now had brain damage and I had to take care of the depression as a result of that!

But on the flipside of the coin the anti-depressants did calm my mind, my mind at the time was a high paced and very high performance machine, thinking about many things at a time (a result of ADD I believe) and I was considered to be a genius by anyone who spoke to me. I could solve any problem that anyone had with computers or if they wanted to know anything about science I could tell them a great deal about any subject, this is what I was like at 18!

But now I no longer have the benefits of having a hyperactive imagination anymore, so I have lost a great deal of who I thought I was, I was unique and now I am nothing but a dumbass regular person.

A good analogy of how I feel about this is something equivalent to you owning a Ferrari and you have built this car in your garage for 10 years, then all of a sudden a big corporation and the police comes into your house and destroys everything infront of your eyes, then they kill your mother and father infront of your eyes, then they kill your cat and torture it. Then they take a grinder and thermite to your Ferrari. Then they disfigure your face by throwing acid onto your face and torture you for a further 8 years and force you to take drugs that you dont want to take, then they tell you that its for your own good and that if you stop taking them they will lock you up in a prison and all of your friends will think your crazy and you will never ever have a girlfriend, never ever have a friend ever again, because they think you are nuts and dangerous to be around.

When it boils down to it, I was suffering from ADD, but the doctors were too much of a dumbass and all I had access to was exhausted and idiotic medicare paid psychiatrists who just dont care about anyone but themselves and their own pockets and will go to great lengths to get as many people on drugs as possible because they are paid by the drug companies. And I am not one of those nuts who is schitzo, I am just a guy with ADD, I dont even have depression, it was all a lie.

I would gladly sue the crap out of every drug company in existence and every psychiatrist that I have ever met if I had the money to do so, but because I am poor I am not capable to fight back against them and THEY KNOW THIS.
you are supposed to improve in your life, not go backwards and be forced into a mental hospital, I am not schitzo but I think that something really scary is going on here. as a result of mental health care in Australia I am certian that there is an entire generation of previously well performing teenagers that are now criminals and have been thrown into jail simply because they react badly to anti-depressants.
I am now as a broken mind trying to pick up the pieces and put my mind back to what it once was, when it boils down to it, I have a bad father, a very bad father, who should have never been allowed back into the home when he was kicked out of it 10 years ago, thats all that is wrong with me, that and ADD.

I dont take illegal drugs, I dont smoke anymore. (I smoked tobacco for 2 years, smoked weed for 6 months.)

I take strength from the fact that I have not gone insane, that I am mentally stable and that I enjoy life. But I know this, modern society is a meat grinder and I will never trust anyone who is a part of the consumerist system ever again. They are extremely selfish, to the point of being murderously so, people today are acting like vicious animals and have apsolutley no compassion at all unless they are paid to be compassionate.

This is why isolationism is a good idea. not because I want to be an isolationist, on the contrary I get out regularly and socialize quite a bit, but the reason why isolationism is a good idea is because the people of this world are going to take advantage of you no matter what, and its a good idea to be able to control just how much they can take advantage of you.

Doctors dont actually know a single fucking thing that is going on in the human brain, all that they are really doing is guessing and taking shotgun approaches to diseases and then perscribing drugs far and wide for illnesses which only a small percentage of the population actually really has.

Fact of the matter is, we are natural-born people, but because we are all born inside of a hospital or the backseat of a car, all of a sudden we are now a product of the corporations and have apsolutley no soul (or shouldnt have, if you do please sign in your soul at the next convenient time, or you will be fined $500) and if you do not conform you will be killed or tortured until you go entirely mad.

FACT2: If i wanted to give up my citizenship, I couldnt legally do so. if I wanted to go back to nature, I couldnt legally do so because this entire country is a prison, you can go back to nature only for a short period of time at any part of the year, but you cannot go back to nature full time. This is partly because we have been conditioned our entire lives to believe in money and we have been isolated from nature that we cannot survive on our own, even in groups we have great difficulty keeping alive. Surviving is hard, man.

in either case, if I were to walk away today from society and walk right into a forest I would be forced to tell the government where I was doing and when, for what reason and when I will be back, that is just wrong. but it is there for a reason, we cannot fend for ourselves and it is an extremely hostile environment out there, they have to come and rescue us when we fuck up.

FACT3: If you even THINK about self defence, THINK about owning weapons, you are considered to be a crazy person by most people who are INSIDE the system.

FACT4: people who think that the system is the ONLY WAY TO BE DOING THINGS, that there is apsolutley no other way to do things except for their way and if you do anything beyond what they say, that you should be shot, are the most dangerous people on the face of this planet, white scared middle class people who are some of the most hyper-selfish, self-vindicative, self-validating, criminal-gangster-culture worshipping evil bastards on the face of the planet and you will live a long life by avoiding them.

FACT5: The people from FACT4, STOP HAVING KIDS! You are destroying the planet for ALL OF US including your selfish stupid little bastard consumerist children! Consumerism is NOT A WAY OF LIFE. Consumerism is NOT a Religion! STOP POLLUTING the world with BABIES!

FACT6: Our politicians fucking LOVE these kinds of people, because the ONLY THING that is lifting up our fucking economy and our society are these kids and you know what they grow up to be? Another McDonalds peddling retail store working minimum wage SLAVE.

FACT7: We are all slaves, we all live in prisons that we have to build ourselves and we all watch the same boob tube which shows us nautral and normal looking national parks, we ALL watch the same pre-programmed shit which brainwashes us into thinking that everything is perfect, everything is fine, everything is normal, IT IS NOT.

FACT8: Don't lose your head.
Just because I am being so patriotic that I am telling it like it is, does NOT mean that you should be just as outspoken as me, these people will EAT YOU ALIVE and completely destroy your life and torture you until you are DEAD if you even THINK about talking about any of this, about talking about any of these issues!

FACT9: We are fucked, but stay calm.
It will all come to an end when we can no longer afford to feed ourselves, simply do your best to ride it out, gain skills and work on your mental skills, and if you can, work on your physical body, when the time comes to quit society completely, if you can afford to escape, then do so, but if you cannot, keep a reliable car, keep it filled up, and keep at least 2 jerry cans of fuel on your property. SO that when you need to get out, you can.

Conclusion:
There isnt a damn thing that we can do about society but we can work on ourselves.

The most important thing that you can do for yourself is start growing your own food in secret, at home, keep it secret from your neighbours, hydroponics is awesome, if the cops want to have a look then let them have a look, its not illegal to grow your own food yet.

Work on your mind (dont need to say this on a site like longecity.com)

Filter your water! Get a Reverse Osmosis filter. God knows how many pollutants there are in tap water, NO it is NOT better than bottled water, infact most tap water goes through highly polluted old pipes which are hundreds of years old and infact my tap water has a high concentration of phosphorous and lead! Know how I know this? I was puzzled as to why every aquarium I ever built had a huge buildup of algae, which grew along the side of the tank like a large carpet, and grew extremely fast.

Filter the water that you use on your crops, or use rainwater, but make sure it filters out bird droppings or you could get sick.

Buy warm clothes and cut back on heating costs and expenses, become more energy efficient. Buy a Toyota 4 cylinder WAGON and give up the SUV.

Buy your groceries online and have them delivered (if you need even need them!)

Cut back on your online presence, do not let out the grand news that your crop of food has just sprouted fruit! No matter just how much this sounds like schitzo thinking, trust me its a sane choice, EVERYONE is on social networking sites these days, even criminals and the police.

Thats all that I can think about right now./Thats all that I can rant about right now.

Quickstart guide to escaping the matrix:
#1 Filter your water with an RO filter, get your minerals from your food, not your water.
#2 Stop watching advertising on television and start watching only pre-recorded material, this cuts out the outside world from your own mind by a great degree, pirate if necessary, but use a proxy like ipredator.
#3 Stop listening to your friends and start listening to yourself more, become more introverted but do not become selfish, become more closed off and make up your own mind about topics.
#4 Stop buying shit that you dont need and think hard and long about wether or not you really need to buy something, consider that you may have a problem with buying things inorder to cope with feeling sad (notice I didn't say depression?). Anti-depressants are not the answer for most people, if you think you need them, maybe focus on your diet in addition to taking advice from doctors.
#5 Disconnect with society and reconnect with nature, go CAMPING and take walks, go fishing and visit farms.

Edited by Layberinthius, 21 August 2013 - 11:16 AM.