151 replies to this topic

[Tom_]

• Hypersensitivity to rejection/criticism
• Self-imposed social isolation
• Extreme shyness or anxiety in social situations, though the person feels a strong desire for close relationships^[10]
• Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus
• Feelings of inadequacy
• Severe low self-esteem
• Self-loathing
• Mistrust of others
• Emotional distancing related to intimacy
• Highly self-conscious
• Self-critical about their problems relating to others
• Problems in occupational functioning
• Lonely self-perception, although others may find the relationship with them meaningful
• Feeling inferior to others
• In some more extreme cases — agoraphobia
• Utilizes fantasy as a form of escapism and to interrupt painful thoughts

sound anything like you?

[Tom_]

Oh bullshit. You have a personality disorder - your entire world view is that everything is hopeless, you are worthless and everything sucks ass. There are perfectly effective treatments for avoidant personality disorder. Soical skills training, CBT progressing to group therapy and the right meds- which will depend on paticular pathophysiology. Two years and you will be subsyndromal. Five symptom free and by 10 moving closer and closer to the norm.

Either get your arse in gear read the evidence, then go get treatment or suffer. Makes no difference to me, I sure know which one I'd pick. Yes I'm a partial hypocrit, look where it got me - coma for two days.

[Raptor87]

There are perfectly effective treatments for avoidant personality disorder

I have never met ANYONE that are completely free from their problems with the help of psychology. I don't even thing that psychology should be listed as a valid profession!

As I said my friend. Pills don't do shit! CBT is like bandage on internal bleedings. Social skill training, let me laugh hysterically, there is nothing more sad than people acting being something they are not! The truth always shines through. Group therapy? I'm not going to sit down with a bunch of loser and whine. If you would be telling me this 10 years ago I would gladly listen. But there is no point any more and I don't have any time to spare any more on bullshit therapy that is just sucking everything from me, it's just giving me false hope and makes me walk in circles- it's just another fantasy! All this work is just telling me, your life will be "may-be" ok if you listen to bullshit but the cost is that you will wake up when and realize that you wasted your life for nothing. I have come to the conclusion of me being such a coward- a person that isn't able to stand up for himself- has no right to live. If i'd be alright in the future, I would just wake up sad and miserable, I rather feel nothing at all! It's amazing how it feels to be a defect, my genes have no right to live!

[YOLF]

• Hypersensitivity to rejection/criticism
• Self-imposed social isolation
• Extreme shyness or anxiety in social situations, though the person feels a strong desire for close relationships^[10]
• Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus
• Feelings of inadequacy
• Severe low self-esteem
• Self-loathing
• Mistrust of others
• Emotional distancing related to intimacy
• Highly self-conscious
• Self-critical about their problems relating to others
• Problems in occupational functioning
• Lonely self-perception, although others may find the relationship with them meaningful
• Feeling inferior to others
• In some more extreme cases — agoraphobia
• Utilizes fantasy as a form of escapism and to interrupt painful thoughts

sound anything like you?

Yes!

There is controversy as to whether avoidant personality disorder is a distinct disorder from generalized social phobia and it is contended by some that they are merely different conceptualisations of the same disorder, where avoidant personality disorder may represent the more severe form.^[3][4] This is argued because generalized social phobia and avoidant personality disorder have similar diagnostic criteria and may share a similar causation, subjective experience, course, treatment, and identical underlying personality features, such as shyness.^[5][6][

I don't need to quote myself when it comes to the anxiety part.

The diagnosis itself doesn't tell me anything. It's just another medical term and there is no cure for it.

IMO, when you see past the system, you fall outside of it. Understanding your condition from the ultimate root perspective removes you from classification in a sense. Now you're not someone who is a particular list of behaviors and out looks, you're a person who's trapped by loss. The DSM also makes certain assumptions that don't fit anyways. They only way they can "fix" you is to make you happy through ignorance, The DSM criteria is all about getting someone to accept the authority of the shrink so they can be decieved into acceptance and happiness and remain stupified.

[YOLF]

Oh bullshit. You have a personality disorder - your entire world view is that everything is hopeless, you are worthless and everything sucks ass. There are perfectly effective treatments for avoidant personality disorder. Soical skills training, CBT progressing to group therapy and the right meds- which will depend on paticular pathophysiology. Two years and you will be subsyndromal. Five symptom free and by 10 moving closer and closer to the norm.

Either get your arse in gear read the evidence, then go get treatment or suffer. Makes no difference to me, I sure know which one I'd pick. Yes I'm a partial hypocrit, look where it got me - coma for two days.

10 years to be only moving closer to the norm, not at all effective... The treatment could take a fraction of the time, but b/c they assume that you're going to die they make it take as long as possible to make sure that A) they make as much money off of you as possible, or B) to make sure your tolerance for ignorance laster longer than your lifespan.

[Tom_]

Nobody is at the norm, the norm is a mathematical hypothetical, the older you get the more normalized you become. So no treatment by the end of two years (prehaps bar meds and the odd follow up - depending on the person) in most cases, unless there is a severe multifaceted personality disorder.

Don't be an idiot, sometimes they are money grabbing bastards, they aren't heartless psychopaths..most of the time. The majority are just a medicore at their job.

[YOLF]

There are perfectly effective treatments for avoidant personality disorder

I have never met ANYONE that are completely free from their problems with the help of psychology. I don't even thing that psychology should be listed as a valid profession!

As I said my friend. Pills don't do shit! CBT is like bandage on internal bleedings. Social skill training, let me laugh hysterically, there is nothing more sad than people acting being something they are not! The truth always shines through. Group therapy? I'm not going to sit down with a bunch of loser and whine. If you would be telling me this 10 years ago I would gladly listen. But there is no point any more and I don't have any time to spare any more on bullshit therapy that is just sucking everything from me, it's just giving me false hope and makes me walk in circles- it's just another fantasy! All this work is just telling me, your life will be "may-be" ok if you listen to bullshit but the cost is that you will wake up when and realize that you wasted your life for nothing. I have come to the conclusion of me being such a coward- a person that isn't able to stand up for himself- has no right to live. If i'd be alright in the future, I would just wake up sad and miserable, I rather feel nothing at all! It's amazing how it feels to be a defect, my genes have no right to live!

Existence alone guarantees one's right to live. I don't know enough about your personal situation or history to explain it further, but existence guarantees one the right to live, be happy, and reproduce. Given the high level of social engineering and human influence on these matters, any deviation from one experiencing these rights is suspect as willful harm. I strongly suggest waiting for the future... Personally, I don't see any help in modern psychology or psychology of any kind, you're already old and your experience of life is going to be truncated even more as you get older, and then you're going to die. At least if you try to live forever you'll have a chance at a full life with future developments in medicine or just having your memories backed up and erased and living your whole life over.

[YOLF]

Nobody is at the norm, the norm is a mathematical hypothetical, the older you get the more normalized you become. So no treatment by the end of two years (prehaps bar meds and the odd follow up - depending on the person) in most cases, unless there is a severe multifaceted personality disorder.

Don't be an idiot, sometimes they are money grabbing bastards, they aren't heartless psychopaths..most of the time. The majority are just a medicore at their job.

Normal is impossible if you are distanced from a "kosher" (meant in the most generic or ways) perspective and did not have a "normal" experience throughout life. One blip and you fall behind. Someone can't just fit in having never understood what it felt like to have a positive youth. The chemistry of a person's youth determines how they learn to be social. SST will either teach you to be something you're not or announce to everyone that you lived a different life than they did which will limit your compatibility. Any deviation from the expect norms is taken by others as a sign of deviance and the person is ostracized by the responses or tests of the other person which they can't pass due to a difference in perspective where as another person would pass easily for feeling the same and having an answer which is intuitively acceptible.

So cryonics is really the only acceptible answer we have until we can rewrite brains and reverse aging. You can't even be any better than mediocre at your job when your best case results occur in the wholly ignorant. When you realize how distant you are and inhuman the treatment is for being distanced, it tells you what the rest of the world thinks about you and at a certain point, you don't want to be part of it anymore.

So you go from 3, to 5, to 10 and then back to 2? These kinds of depression shouldn't be allowed to exist for more than a few weeks or even days and it takes a considerable amount of effort and media to create a depression of this kind. The idea that they go on for years and then take years to correct is disgusting. I love how we're always talking about bullying and how it should stop, but psychologists and other such figures enlist children to bully the kids who's lives are deemed disposable. Social justice would be getting rid of all of these mechanisms and the authority of psychologists and others to do these things in the first place which amount to existential murder.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 14 June 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Tom_]

I'm struggling to find an evidence base for any of your assumptions.

Taking into account nobody has an exactly similar upbrining (the fact you are ignoring genetic factors, biological enviromental factors etc...) and seem to have forgotten the word change.

Your decision to hold off until something that may not happen I hope is a well calculated risk.

[Doktor]

Tom_,

I understand that learned behavior is not neccesarily the only cause of depression, however I do believe that it is the most common one.

For example, say you were born with a personality that stood out as odd (which again, I believe most of the personality is shaped through conditioning), and this caused you to be picked on... you're personality is not the cause of your depression, your learned-helplessness brought on by constant negative conditioning during your development is. Your personality did not make you inherently depressed.

How about Brainfoggeds example: "I have realized that I was born with anxiety levels that are high as a baseline.". Presuming that you meant to say you were born with a lower then normal anxiety-response threshold, I could again argue that your depression is a learned behavior, as your naturally high levels of anxiety conditioned you to believe that you can't achieve your goals (due to the resulting anxiety response from trying). Over time, this constant failure has conditioned you to "accept" that its hopeless to try these things, and that has made you depressed.

I stand by my theory; Instead of accepting that I am generalizing, I would argue that "Learned-Helplessness" covers a much broader spectrum then most realize. It really comes down to what you define a learned behaviour as, because my theory basically holds up unless a person is literally born with a mental abnormality that causes them to be depressed (not anxious, as anxiety is a useful evolutionary trait), and there is NO other cause at all. I would guess that very few clinically depressed people are actually born defective in this way. There are just a million things that can happen to you during the course of your life (on a concious or sub-concious level) that can cause you to develop negative thinking patterns as well as a negative broad perspective.

Also, Brainfogged, I feel for you. However, I also urge you to try and accept the fact that - although you may never be "cured" - you can make a positive difference with your depression. I can almost guarantee you that your current attitude (that nothing will work, and you can't help yourself) has been and will be prohibitive of any sort of self-treatment or counselling you try in the future. There is no way you'll ever be happy if you really believe that you can't be happy... it just doesn't make sense. In the end, its your call... even if you don't think you can make yourself better at all, why not at least try, as opposed to living your life miserable and not trying at all. Logic would indicate that you should at least try, right?

[The Immortalist]

I think depression is very hard to beat, because 99% of the time there is no "Chemical Imbalance". Realize that pharmaceutical companies have no interest in your mental health, and have only propagated such B.S (like the low serotonin theory) in order to sell their drugs.

Depression is hard to beat because - in essence - there is nothing to actually defeat. I strongly believe that depression is a learned behavior, even on a sub-concious level through all of the environmental stimuli that condition us during our development.

So, if you want to "beat your depression", you need to start getting in the habit of not moping and thinking negatively (I'm not trying to be rude). Drugs can definitely help with this, so long as you pay attention to how they affect your mood/behaviour, and attempt to carry this change on past the duration of the substances effects.

I'm depressed occasionally, and have been majorly depressed for at least a few years in the past, so I'm not just trying to say, "People are depressed because they are mopes", or anything like that. However, the mentality of "It's not my fault, its a chemical imbalance, I can't help it" is very similar to what the pod people from AA or NA say ("I am powerless to my addiction, it's my genetics, etc".). In the end, you can believe that if you want, but I can fucking guarantee you will never become well... which has a subjective meaning anyway, doesn't it?

You have what it takes to beat your depression, and you don't need anything you don't already have to do it.

I don't perceive honest opinions as rude. I don't perceive myself as a victim neither as much as I do being a loser (whatever that means).

Depression can have it's various reasons. What you name is one, some people have taught themselves to sit in a rut. Depression can also have social reasons based on social weakness. I have realized that I was born with anxiety levels that are high as a baseline. My reasons for being depressed is because I am a coward, I can't live a life like a normal person does. Believe me, I have tried and it resulted in utter humiliation and social defeat in every aspect. everyone that hit me, humiliated me, and were mean to me, when I tried to give back I was further humiliated. When years went by I was further defeated, something new that was fucked up happened. Things that made me infamous around my parts. The people that disliked me further put me down, I am an adult now and am still getting bullied because I can't protect myself. Of course the passiveness is a result of me being born passive, I faint when I try to stand up for myself, that's how stressed I am. People see me as an easy target and that's it. I have lost every sense of self dignity and I really don't care about anything, that's the beauty of being a loser. You lose all hope! I am a horrible person these days due to this and actually enjoy pain.

My life would make a great movie. Sometimes I feel like I am sitting in the eye of a tornado watching all the chaos around me. The spot where I am in is my life, undeveloped, unsatisfied, dead and boring. The storm surrounding me is everyone else! Everyone I've known, they were people that met people, they got their degrees, they have families and successful companies and are living in "vigor". Even my friends who were computergeeks eventually grew up. I am not comparing myself in the aspect of material wealth, I am just saying that there is absolutely nothing for me to live for, I am not suicidal but I have a hollow life and can't do anything about it. Depression is just a symptom of me being stuck in one spot, It's like life is fast-forwarding itself by.

As I was sitting in the local pub yesterday, trying to make social contact. I was listening to myself and said wtf is wrong with me! People ignore me! I try to ask them stuff and share what I know, it ends with me talking indifferently, monotonically with the least syllables possible. Not because I want to, I am trying to be social but I cannot reach out.The empty feeling I have is a result of constant anxiety, I have no emotions nor can I have emotional momentum with anyone. It doesn't matter what I read, what pills I take (SRRI's even blunt me even more). I thought that I had asperger for a while, but I wasn't like this when I was a kid. It's when my teens hit that I got more messed up. I mean I was extremely shy, but I could still function with my friends. All the therapy and all psychology I've done is bullshit, I don't have any issues. Its just who I am. I just feel sorry for people getting their hopes up, and for what? To live in an illusion. Nowadays I look at myself and I look at people with severe emotional problems and all various kinds of ailments. And I realize that the only reason we exist is because we really are slaves so there can be people on top of the "food chain". If there was a choice, I would gladly strap myself for a lethal injection. I could go on with the list of symptoms I have. but they don't matter anymore. I joined this forum trying to find an answer But it has only lead me to a deeper fundamental understanding of a few things about how gravely lost I am. But I don't matter any more. I can only do what I have always been doing.

Standing up for yourself is indeed stressful but it's just a necessary evil in this world less you want to be trampled on. Even animals like wolves do it. If wolves don't want to not starve to death they have to defend their portion of food from the kill with vigour and aggressiveness to show the others they aren't a pussy to be trampled on. It's basic human nature to exploit or to be indifferent to the weak(or the people who are perceived to be weak).

Since you say you have such anxiety when standing up for youself that you almost faint I would recommend a beta blocker like propranolol. http://en.wikipedia....iki/Propranolol

[Tom_]

Doktor.

There is no 'single' cause of depression in any person, it is always ultra-complex, well beyond our ability to currently comprehend, accepted theories of depression are by the most (except Biomedical working hypotheses) analogies to pathophysiology - some people disagree with this, those that do I refuse to talk to. I think we both accept the basic premise every response a human can possibly have (from finger movement to change in affect) is biological in origin (chemical if you regress further and further still physics, science as yet to elucidate much past this).

I'll run with your odd personality leading to being bullied leading to depression..for now. You have now been conditioned into accepting things are impossible/unfair/other negative schema and you no longer exhibit certain behaviors (such as psychomotor retardation, lack of seeking behavior etc..) you are still left with the inability to explain cognitive/affective state. Something else must be going on - back ground cognitive processing maybe? Based on a mix of previous learned responses, problem solving skills, current affective state....That's just looking at depression from a learned helplessness point of view.

If you look at the actual risk factors of depression, twin studies suggest 37% inheritance of MDD, the existence of diseases causing depression (1 in 10 depressions are essentially disease caused or the disease plays a major role in an acute psych unit (not being depressed because of a disease) (from cushings to periods), having given birth in the last year, recent traumatic life event, family history of mood disorder/suicide...all together accounting clearly accounting for more 'risk' than anything that COULD be conditioning, assuming most of personality is (something I would agree with to some extent) etc..

Yes, I know what your theory says. It just happily ignores facts like stressors cause increases in various chemicals (cortisol, noradrenaline etc...) which can make the mildest man a monster and a monster a coward. This is but one example and there are hundreds. I dislike arguing by examples but I also don't like gathering 30+ papers all non-paywall to give credence to my point, so I'm expecting you to accept the facts I give you as true as I accepted/knew the facts you give me to be true.

If you still don't agree but do agree with my first supposition then I'm more than happy to carry on this debate if not...just no.

[socialpiranha]

brainfogged,

The idea that you are genetically predetermined to be a coward/failure is ridiculous, move away, there is no reason you should have to "stand up for yourself" unless your living in a place where people know you as "an easy target". Don't let your understanding of the unspoken laws/motivations of social interaction deprive you of an enjoyable life. Just because the system is fucked doesnt mean you cant enjoy your life in spite of it. yes you might have to be an actor sometimes but at least your aware of it unlike most people, this gives you an advantage. Life is a game, win or lose in the end it doesnt matter but its more fun to win while your playing. There's no shame in selling out if its to win. do whatever you have to to enjoy your life unless its hurting other ppl who dont deserve it. It is just a game, we have each won the lottery and the prize is the chance to play this game, you have the option of quitting whenever you want but its so much more fun to win.

[Reformed-Redan]

Looking at "depression" as learned helplessness might be of better use.

[Raptor87]

FUCK labels man! There is something called human instinct and if there is something that life hates, it's weakness. Labels are cooked up by psychologists and academic bullshitters so they can make money because they represent something called a cure. But I have NEVER heard ANYONE being cured of ANY psychological problem. Mentally ill just learn to live "with it" and continue feeling horrible or they become completely delusional about their reality and these people often wind up back at the shrinks pissing their life away on talking about pointless shit that doesn't represent reality at all. It's an industry! I would like to hear from a psychobullshitter that has gone through psychological problems himself and successfully come to something that works but how often do you find someone like that. I know that if I wasn't born like a piece of shit, then I would not be here.

[Tom_]

No, Yadaya (sorry if I miss spell) it would be easier - not better.

About half the people on here brainfogged. Now you are just mopping and talking utter shit. Try reading some actual evidence.

[The Immortalist]

FUCK labels man! There is something called human instinct and if there is something that life hates, it's weakness. Labels are cooked up by psychologists and academic bullshitters so they can make money because they represent something called a cure. But I have NEVER heard ANYONE being cured of ANY psychological problem. Mentally ill just learn to live "with it" and continue feeling horrible or they become completely delusional about their reality and these people often wind up back at the shrinks pissing their life away on talking about pointless shit that doesn't represent reality at all. It's an industry! I would like to hear from a psychobullshitter that has gone through psychological problems himself and successfully come to something that works but how often do you find someone like that. I know that if I wasn't born like a piece of shit, then I would not be here.

Yep life hates weakness. If you're weak you perish. Learn to love this rule for there is no circumventing it. You must get over it.

Also it's obvious that because you have never met someone who got over their problems it means that it's impossible *sarcasm*. I don't care if I sound like a dick I'm just pointing out your flawed logic.

Edited by The Immortalist, 15 June 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[socialpiranha]

life doesn't hate weakness thats a terrible metaphor...its too general. weakness is a strength in many situations for humans. Yes in the animal kingdom weakness is almost always a weakness, but humans are different. Your being a negativist rather than a realist, don't convince yourself otherwise. everyone has strengths and weaknesses, humans have the ability to focus on either their strengths or weakness and this can literally influence evolution.

[Tom_]

Life isn't bloody cogniscient 'it' doesn't do anything.

The world isn't fair or unfair or anything else, it just is.

Weakness and Strength are relative to so much they have no actual value, unless able to be quantified.

No body on this this thread I have read other than myself (I've read far from all of it) appears to be a realist, be that for the good or the bad.

Brainfogged is a pessimist. A very good example of how learned helplessness plays a role in depression (although even in the pathophysiology of this learned helplessness doesn't explain nearly all).

[Mike C]

brainfogged,

The idea that you are genetically predetermined to be a coward/failure is ridiculous, move away, there is no reason you should have to "stand up for yourself" unless your living in a place where people know you as "an easy target". Don't let your understanding of the unspoken laws/motivations of social interaction deprive you of an enjoyable life. Just because the system is fucked doesnt mean you cant enjoy your life in spite of it. yes you might have to be an actor sometimes but at least your aware of it unlike most people, this gives you an advantage. Life is a game, win or lose in the end it doesnt matter but its more fun to win while your playing. There's no shame in selling out if its to win. do whatever you have to to enjoy your life unless its hurting other ppl who dont deserve it. It is just a game, we have each won the lottery and the prize is the chance to play this game, you have the option of quitting whenever you want but its so much more fun to win.

Brain fog you need to uproot your whole perspective. Practice meditation and read books that describe the fact that all we really are is a delusion. The self you hate is a construct. Your true self is universal. This is both a spiritual and a very scientific view because the real you is simply the physiological reality that breathes, eats and shits. That is a fact and that physiological reality is simply the universal. That is a mystical intuitive traditional view and science cannot dispute it.

[Raptor87]

• Hypersensitivity to rejection/criticism
• Self-imposed social isolation
• Extreme shyness or anxiety in social situations, though the person feels a strong desire for close relationships^[10]
• Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus
• Feelings of inadequacy
• Severe low self-esteem
• Self-loathing
• Mistrust of others
• Emotional distancing related to intimacy
• Highly self-conscious
• Self-critical about their problems relating to others
• Problems in occupational functioning
• Lonely self-perception, although others may find the relationship with them meaningful
• Feeling inferior to others
• In some more extreme cases — agoraphobia
• Utilizes fantasy as a form of escapism and to interrupt painful thoughts

sound anything like you?

Yes!

There is controversy as to whether avoidant personality disorder is a distinct disorder from generalized social phobia and it is contended by some that they are merely different conceptualisations of the same disorder, where avoidant personality disorder may represent the more severe form.^[3][4] This is argued because generalized social phobia and avoidant personality disorder have similar diagnostic criteria and may share a similar causation, subjective experience, course, treatment, and identical underlying personality features, such as shyness.^[5][6][

I don't need to quote myself when it comes to the anxiety part.

The diagnosis itself doesn't tell me anything. It's just another medical term and there is no cure for it.

IMO, when you see past the system, you fall outside of it. Understanding your condition from the ultimate root perspective removes you from classification in a sense. Now you're not someone who is a particular list of behaviors and out looks, you're a person who's trapped by loss. The DSM also makes certain assumptions that don't fit anyways. They only way they can "fix" you is to make you happy through ignorance, The DSM criteria is all about getting someone to accept the authority of the shrink so they can be decieved into acceptance and happiness and remain stupified.

I'm past the system because I have crawled myself in to it and out of it. After reading scientific journals, psychology and psychiatric research I have found that they have not done anything to help people dig themselves out of their miserable lives. Stability, sociability, risktaking, aggression, anxiety, passiveness, stress, depression is a matter of biology. Self - esteem and confidence is just social makeup or markers for good healthy genes. We are social animals and the above named factors contribute to well being and self- love! This creates a predisposed social system.

Why we see so many people on SSRI's is because there is evidence that these drugs reduce the activity in the amygdala and limbic system. They really don't understand how these drugs work, the serotonin theory is in my opinion bullshit. If anything these drugs keep certain neurochemicasl- not elevated in the brain- but just floating around there. This means that they really just blunt certain actions which in some sense, make you dull in the head. That's why so many feel like zombies, or they are constantly tired or they sleep a lot when on them! Good luck being stressed or socially anxious when feeling like a tired zombie all the time. Psychology fails at saving people because it's just trying to fix the social makeup- it's the same as telling people to pretend!

If you look at this documentary you will see what I mean. But keep in mind that SSRI's blunt certain action, they don't remove the core problem. Which means that these people can better pretend to have certain genetic features. (If you look at the documentary past 45 min you will see a very shy girl with selective mutism on SSRI's.


As you say, current technology can't do shit! And why would they change anything! Because the more social slaves society has, the better for those sitting on top of the system.
http://www.psycholog...ture-or-nurture

I would be better off if I could go to the docs and tell him what drugs I need. I'm not going to sit there any more and let them tell me shit and give me the lousy drugs just so I will be content about my shitty life while they make money! That's what they want!

My suggestion to everyone is that they fucking should stop dwelling about their problems and see what's possible for them to do, realistically, and forget anything about becoming better at those things they so much wish for.Put that energy on to something else and if it comes to sex, go get a prostitute.

After years of reading in different forums for those who have "psychological problems" I have concluded that people just sit there and they keep on writing the same bullshit over and over again, they go to the shrinks with false hope- and everyone says that, "go to the shrink or doc"- and that shit doesn't help. But it's so ingrained in their mind by the media and commercialism that it's possible to become anything, that it is possible to fix your problems. They are just selling delusional dreams. It's so sad reading when people come back to those forums writing that they "relapsed"- which is not really their fault because it's the doc's who made them delusional in the first place. And it ends up in self- blame. Do you see where psychology fundamentally fails at?

Edited by Brainfogged, 16 June 2013 - 04:58 AM.

[Raptor87]

There are perfectly effective treatments for avoidant personality disorder

I have never met ANYONE that are completely free from their problems with the help of psychology. I don't even thing that psychology should be listed as a valid profession!

As I said my friend. Pills don't do shit! CBT is like bandage on internal bleedings. Social skill training, let me laugh hysterically, there is nothing more sad than people acting being something they are not! The truth always shines through. Group therapy? I'm not going to sit down with a bunch of loser and whine. If you would be telling me this 10 years ago I would gladly listen. But there is no point any more and I don't have any time to spare any more on bullshit therapy that is just sucking everything from me, it's just giving me false hope and makes me walk in circles- it's just another fantasy! All this work is just telling me, your life will be "may-be" ok if you listen to bullshit but the cost is that you will wake up when and realize that you wasted your life for nothing. I have come to the conclusion of me being such a coward- a person that isn't able to stand up for himself- has no right to live. If i'd be alright in the future, I would just wake up sad and miserable, I rather feel nothing at all! It's amazing how it feels to be a defect, my genes have no right to live!

Existence alone guarantees one's right to live. I don't know enough about your personal situation or history to explain it further, but existence guarantees one the right to live, be happy, and reproduce. Given the high level of social engineering and human influence on these matters, any deviation from one experiencing these rights is suspect as willful harm. I strongly suggest waiting for the future... Personally, I don't see any help in modern psychology or psychology of any kind, you're already old and your experience of life is going to be truncated even more as you get older, and then you're going to die. At least if you try to live forever you'll have a chance at a full life with future developments in medicine or just having your memories backed up and erased and living your whole life over.

Tom_,

I understand that learned behavior is not neccesarily the only cause of depression, however I do believe that it is the most common one.

For example, say you were born with a personality that stood out as odd (which again, I believe most of the personality is shaped through conditioning), and this caused you to be picked on... you're personality is not the cause of your depression, your learned-helplessness brought on by constant negative conditioning during your development is. Your personality did not make you inherently depressed.

How about Brainfoggeds example: "I have realized that I was born with anxiety levels that are high as a baseline.". Presuming that you meant to say you were born with a lower then normal anxiety-response threshold, I could again argue that your depression is a learned behavior, as your naturally high levels of anxiety conditioned you to believe that you can't achieve your goals (due to the resulting anxiety response from trying). Over time, this constant failure has conditioned you to "accept" that its hopeless to try these things, and that has made you depressed.

I stand by my theory; Instead of accepting that I am generalizing, I would argue that "Learned-Helplessness" covers a much broader spectrum then most realize. It really comes down to what you define a learned behaviour as, because my theory basically holds up unless a person is literally born with a mental abnormality that causes them to be depressed (not anxious, as anxiety is a useful evolutionary trait), and there is NO other cause at all. I would guess that very few clinically depressed people are actually born defective in this way. There are just a million things that can happen to you during the course of your life (on a concious or sub-concious level) that can cause you to develop negative thinking patterns as well as a negative broad perspective.

Also, Brainfogged, I feel for you. However, I also urge you to try and accept the fact that - although you may never be "cured" - you can make a positive difference with your depression. I can almost guarantee you that your current attitude (that nothing will work, and you can't help yourself) has been and will be prohibitive of any sort of self-treatment or counselling you try in the future. There is no way you'll ever be happy if you really believe that you can't be happy... it just doesn't make sense. In the end, its your call... even if you don't think you can make yourself better at all, why not at least try, as opposed to living your life miserable and not trying at all. Logic would indicate that you should at least try, right?

@cryonicsculture
I am sorry to say that, but I am not gonna assume that the future in any regard will hold something positive for me. Everything is pointing towards that our current situation is telling is to die and to die fast, which I really am starting to strive for, not in a suicidal way! But consider it, why the fuck should I live in order to make people feel good about themselves. I'd rather live for myself and live a fucked up life that is. All those assumed cures, if it is psychology or cryonics, do know it's just another illusion.

@tom and doc
Anxiety is not a useful trait! Reacting is, but anxiety isn't! Yes Doktor , you understood what I was implying with my post about anxiety and threshold. Learned helplessness is just a shitty term on something we all probably have more or less, I mean us with issues with anxiety. As I said before, I am not going to be delusional about who I am or pretend that there is something for me in the "near" future. The truth is, we are all trapped, you haven't just sensed it yet. if you keep on dreaming you will continue being caught up in there.

[Raptor87]

life doesn't hate weakness thats a terrible metaphor...its too general. weakness is a strength in many situations for humans. Yes in the animal kingdom weakness is almost always a weakness, but humans are different. Your being a negativist rather than a realist, don't convince yourself otherwise. everyone has strengths and weaknesses, humans have the ability to focus on either their strengths or weakness and this can literally influence evolution.

@Immortalist
If anything I am logical right now. And if I haven't met anyone, so where is the evidence. From what I've read is that the only measured effect has been with CBT, and that's on contemporary basis. There is no long term evidence supporting what therapy is doing and therapists don't lie about these things, that's why they call it a treatment, not a cure.

@socialpiranha
First of all! Why did you choose that name and what is it a metaphor for? Second of all, if there is something I hate it' semantics. I have said what I think. If you are trying to flip that over with words, well if it makes things easier for you, be my guest. But if you face my reality and experience what I experience then you would understand what I am saying. Sure I can see that I am pissed off and my wording can come off as hard, but it doesn't mean that there isn't any truth in it.

@tom
I could go on bulshitting myself and everyone else about different things reaching out through different branches. A philosopher would say "yes life is unfair due to us humans or life becomes unfair when you cant live". A psychologist would say, "yes life is neutral and your reality might be off but if there is something you shouldn't do, it is is being a victim". It's interesting that when somebody doesn't take on the actual content of what the person is trying to say- a problem when to realities collides- and starts to think about using labels to define someone. But I understand, my post is filled with a sense negativity which is a reflection of who I am do to my life.

[Raptor87]

brainfogged,

The idea that you are genetically predetermined to be a coward/failure is ridiculous, move away, there is no reason you should have to "stand up for yourself" unless your living in a place where people know you as "an easy target". Don't let your understanding of the unspoken laws/motivations of social interaction deprive you of an enjoyable life. Just because the system is fucked doesnt mean you cant enjoy your life in spite of it. yes you might have to be an actor sometimes but at least your aware of it unlike most people, this gives you an advantage. Life is a game, win or lose in the end it doesnt matter but its more fun to win while your playing. There's no shame in selling out if its to win. do whatever you have to to enjoy your life unless its hurting other ppl who dont deserve it. It is just a game, we have each won the lottery and the prize is the chance to play this game, you have the option of quitting whenever you want but its so much more fun to win.

Brain fog you need to uproot your whole perspective. Practice meditation and read books that describe the fact that all we really are is a delusion. The self you hate is a construct. Your true self is universal. This is both a spiritual and a very scientific view because the real you is simply the physiological reality that breathes, eats and shits. That is a fact and that physiological reality is simply the universal. That is a mystical intuitive traditional view and science cannot dispute it.

I am an easy target and there is no place for fleeing any more. This is not the first time I am being harassed without reason and this all is due to me being a passive fuck, although that is a wrong term, it's because I have anxiety and become extremely passive when someone harasses me. Let them hate me, I deserve it! But not being able to stand up for yourself in life is like saying "be a bottomfeeder". If I don't face reality then these issues will just follow me, they will continue on haunting me wherever I move. What kind of life is that? I'd rather die! Life isn't a game, I hate that term because it makes people believe that they can act themselves through life, if it would come to the aspect of acting then life wouldn't be real for us.

I have done meditation. I find it sad when people try to flee from themselves with distancing themselves through their egos. Doing that didn't help me, it just made my anxiety worse. The idea of egodeath is so you can go back to your ego not dwell in a place totally detached from yourself. To peel of what isn't needed in the former ego. But what I am experiencing isn't ego, this all is just a symptom of what I am facing, my feelings go deeper than a problem with my ego. I am not in to spirituality, I find it disturbing when people try to pretend that their lives aren't real. Our perception and physiology is very real to us, it's now like I can put on a pair of quantum- goggles and evaporate myself in to a different dimension where I can live happily ever after.

I am sorry everyone. As I said, nothing has helped and that is a good thing. I don't need to have faith any more. I know that this all come off as an debate, I am glad that you have found things and hobbies that have helped you, science and cryonics is interesting, so is spirituality and even pharmaceuticals. But those things cannot help me.

It's interesting because I just remembered that I also suffered from selective mutism as a child. I had totally forgotten that. The link with the girl on SSRI's didn't work in my precious posts so here!

http://en.wikipedia....elective_mutism

Go figure!

Edited by Brainfogged, 16 June 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[socialpiranha]

ok well it sounds like you have resigned yourself to the fact your a coward and a loser so what are you looking for by posting? i'm personally not gonna straight up comiserate with you cause i dont think social failure is a life sentence. Go lift weights and get big enough so people don't fuck with you anymore, if your past is embarrassing move somewhere else and reinvent yourself. Life is a game you just chose not to see it that way because you take other peoples meanings on things to be true. Beliefs and ideas are nothing unless you agree to give them meaning, if you wipe the slate clean its evident that you choose what means what in life. If you dont wipe the slate clean though you are doomed to be a product of your beliefs and ideas rather than the one who controls them.

[YOLF]

There are perfectly effective treatments for avoidant personality disorder

I have never met ANYONE that are completely free from their problems with the help of psychology. I don't even thing that psychology should be listed as a valid profession!

As I said my friend. Pills don't do shit! CBT is like bandage on internal bleedings. Social skill training, let me laugh hysterically, there is nothing more sad than people acting being something they are not! The truth always shines through. Group therapy? I'm not going to sit down with a bunch of loser and whine. If you would be telling me this 10 years ago I would gladly listen. But there is no point any more and I don't have any time to spare any more on bullshit therapy that is just sucking everything from me, it's just giving me false hope and makes me walk in circles- it's just another fantasy! All this work is just telling me, your life will be "may-be" ok if you listen to bullshit but the cost is that you will wake up when and realize that you wasted your life for nothing. I have come to the conclusion of me being such a coward- a person that isn't able to stand up for himself- has no right to live. If i'd be alright in the future, I would just wake up sad and miserable, I rather feel nothing at all! It's amazing how it feels to be a defect, my genes have no right to live!

Existence alone guarantees one's right to live. I don't know enough about your personal situation or history to explain it further, but existence guarantees one the right to live, be happy, and reproduce. Given the high level of social engineering and human influence on these matters, any deviation from one experiencing these rights is suspect as willful harm. I strongly suggest waiting for the future... Personally, I don't see any help in modern psychology or psychology of any kind, you're already old and your experience of life is going to be truncated even more as you get older, and then you're going to die. At least if you try to live forever you'll have a chance at a full life with future developments in medicine or just having your memories backed up and erased and living your whole life over.

Tom_,

I understand that learned behavior is not neccesarily the only cause of depression, however I do believe that it is the most common one.

For example, say you were born with a personality that stood out as odd (which again, I believe most of the personality is shaped through conditioning), and this caused you to be picked on... you're personality is not the cause of your depression, your learned-helplessness brought on by constant negative conditioning during your development is. Your personality did not make you inherently depressed.

How about Brainfoggeds example: "I have realized that I was born with anxiety levels that are high as a baseline.". Presuming that you meant to say you were born with a lower then normal anxiety-response threshold, I could again argue that your depression is a learned behavior, as your naturally high levels of anxiety conditioned you to believe that you can't achieve your goals (due to the resulting anxiety response from trying). Over time, this constant failure has conditioned you to "accept" that its hopeless to try these things, and that has made you depressed.

I stand by my theory; Instead of accepting that I am generalizing, I would argue that "Learned-Helplessness" covers a much broader spectrum then most realize. It really comes down to what you define a learned behaviour as, because my theory basically holds up unless a person is literally born with a mental abnormality that causes them to be depressed (not anxious, as anxiety is a useful evolutionary trait), and there is NO other cause at all. I would guess that very few clinically depressed people are actually born defective in this way. There are just a million things that can happen to you during the course of your life (on a concious or sub-concious level) that can cause you to develop negative thinking patterns as well as a negative broad perspective.

Also, Brainfogged, I feel for you. However, I also urge you to try and accept the fact that - although you may never be "cured" - you can make a positive difference with your depression. I can almost guarantee you that your current attitude (that nothing will work, and you can't help yourself) has been and will be prohibitive of any sort of self-treatment or counselling you try in the future. There is no way you'll ever be happy if you really believe that you can't be happy... it just doesn't make sense. In the end, its your call... even if you don't think you can make yourself better at all, why not at least try, as opposed to living your life miserable and not trying at all. Logic would indicate that you should at least try, right?

@cryonicsculture
I am sorry to say that, but I am not gonna assume that the future in any regard will hold something positive for me. Everything is pointing towards that our current situation is telling is to die and to die fast, which I really am starting to strive for, not in a suicidal way! But consider it, why the fuck should I live in order to make people feel good about themselves. I'd rather live for myself and live a fucked up life that is. All those assumed cures, if it is psychology or cryonics, do know it's just another illusion.

@tom and doc
Anxiety is not a useful trait! Reacting is, but anxiety isn't! Yes Doktor , you understood what I was implying with my post about anxiety and threshold. Learned helplessness is just a shitty term on something we all probably have more or less, I mean us with issues with anxiety. As I said before, I am not going to be delusional about who I am or pretend that there is something for me in the "near" future. The truth is, we are all trapped, you haven't just sensed it yet. if you keep on dreaming you will continue being caught up in there.

You should wait until you've read my response to post #87. Even if cryonics were an illusion, wouldn't it be better to leave a mark as a martyr to that illusion? If it were to work out, you would have the chance to have your mind erased and relearn a new life with all of the things you were missing, you could look back on your former life, perhaps in the form of a book, and gain a fuller understanding of your complete pathology and be for the most part vindicated considering the domino effect on your life, and that's the justice you really need. Die and you'll never see it, you'll never have the chance to live as you should have and through your vindication, stop the existential terror that your life was made out to be. Did I mention the penultimate trump? If that's an accurate vision of the future, they're going to scan your brain and be able to determine these things. Once you understand my response to post #87 (I'll post it Monday... it's a big response) you may feel different. The important part is that you get frozen to make it to that day. You can't get thawed if you don't get frozen and you're life will just be a loss that fades into history where it might otherwise have had a chance to help someone and leave you with a life that was only painful. You could make any request you wanted and just stay frozen until it becomes available, then have a future of forever to cherish and enjoy in happiness. You might have a genetic disease other than depression as another poster wrote. But depression isn't a genetic disease.

[YOLF]

brainfogged,

The idea that you are genetically predetermined to be a coward/failure is ridiculous, move away, there is no reason you should have to "stand up for yourself" unless your living in a place where people know you as "an easy target". Don't let your understanding of the unspoken laws/motivations of social interaction deprive you of an enjoyable life. Just because the system is fucked doesnt mean you cant enjoy your life in spite of it. yes you might have to be an actor sometimes but at least your aware of it unlike most people, this gives you an advantage. Life is a game, win or lose in the end it doesnt matter but its more fun to win while your playing. There's no shame in selling out if its to win. do whatever you have to to enjoy your life unless its hurting other ppl who dont deserve it. It is just a game, we have each won the lottery and the prize is the chance to play this game, you have the option of quitting whenever you want but its so much more fun to win.

Brain fog you need to uproot your whole perspective. Practice meditation and read books that describe the fact that all we really are is a delusion. The self you hate is a construct. Your true self is universal. This is both a spiritual and a very scientific view because the real you is simply the physiological reality that breathes, eats and shits. That is a fact and that physiological reality is simply the universal. That is a mystical intuitive traditional view and science cannot dispute it.

I am an easy target and there is no place for fleeing any more. This is not the first time I am being harassed without reason and this all is due to me being a passive fuck, although that is a wrong term, it's because I have anxiety and become extremely passive when someone harasses me. Let them hate me, I deserve it! But not being able to stand up for yourself in life is like saying "be a bottomfeeder". If I don't face reality then these issues will just follow me, they will continue on haunting me wherever I move. What kind of life is that? I'd rather die! Life isn't a game, I hate that term because it makes people believe that they can act themselves through life, if it would come to the aspect of acting then life wouldn't be real for us.

I have done meditation. I find it sad when people try to flee from themselves with distancing themselves through their egos. Doing that didn't help me, it just made my anxiety worse. The idea of egodeath is so you can go back to your ego not dwell in a place totally detached from yourself. To peel of what isn't needed in the former ego. But what I am experiencing isn't ego, this all is just a symptom of what I am facing, my feelings go deeper than a problem with my ego. I am not in to spirituality, I find it disturbing when people try to pretend that their lives aren't real. Our perception and physiology is very real to us, it's now like I can put on a pair of quantum- goggles and evaporate myself in to a different dimension where I can live happily ever after.

I am sorry everyone. As I said, nothing has helped and that is a good thing. I don't need to have faith any more. I know that this all come off as an debate, I am glad that you have found things and hobbies that have helped you, science and cryonics is interesting, so is spirituality and even pharmaceuticals. But those things cannot help me.

It's interesting because I just remembered that I also suffered from selective mutism as a child. I had totally forgotten that. The link with the girl on SSRI's didn't work in my precious posts so here!

http://en.wikipedia....elective_mutism

Go figure!

I wouldn't recommend meditation. For a troubled individual it can result in reinforcing depression. Clearing one's mind can let the bad stuff seep/seap or leak (sp?) in and have no competing feelings to protect you. It can make things worse and result in defense mechanisms and developing rigidity to emotion. IMO it's useless for that reason.

[YOLF]

ok well it sounds like you have resigned yourself to the fact your a coward and a loser so what are you looking for by posting? i'm personally not gonna straight up comiserate with you cause i dont think social failure is a life sentence. Go lift weights and get big enough so people don't fuck with you anymore, if your past is embarrassing move somewhere else and reinvent yourself. Life is a game you just chose not to see it that way because you take other peoples meanings on things to be true. Beliefs and ideas are nothing unless you agree to give them meaning, if you wipe the slate clean its evident that you choose what means what in life. If you dont wipe the slate clean though you are doomed to be a product of your beliefs and ideas rather than the one who controls them.

I can tell that there are some things you're missing. If BF were to move, it wouldn't do him much good, not unless he first developed an understanding, until then, he'd just be very prone to making his embarassments known to more people. He can't reinvent himself without that understanding and he'll just be putting a transparent bandaid on his injury. Wait for my reply to post #87, you might learn something from it too.

Can you give an example for the last part of your post that I've bolded?

[Tom_]

life doesn't hate weakness thats a terrible metaphor...its too general. weakness is a strength in many situations for humans. Yes in the animal kingdom weakness is almost always a weakness, but humans are different. Your being a negativist rather than a realist, don't convince yourself otherwise. everyone has strengths and weaknesses, humans have the ability to focus on either their strengths or weakness and this can literally influence evolution.

@tom
I could go on bulshitting myself and everyone else about different things reaching out through different branches. A philosopher would say "yes life is unfair due to us humans or life becomes unfair when you cant live". A psychologist would say, "yes life is neutral and your reality might be off but if there is something you shouldn't do, it is is being a victim". It's interesting that when somebody doesn't take on the actual content of what the person is trying to say- a problem when to realities collides- and starts to think about using labels to define someone. But I understand, my post is filled with a sense negativity which is a reflection of who I am do to my life.

No. That's bullshit. There is an objective reality. Of course I use labels to define someone, just as I use labels to define parts of a complex electrical system (Hard Drive, CPU etc..). You do so too. In fact all humans do, this 'don't label me crap' is getting old fast, what the hell else is anyone meant to do but label another person, whether its a useless label like "sad", slightly more useful "clinically depressed", even more useful "personality disordered and clinically depressed due to the PD" or even more useful "fuckwit decreased size in the amgydala and overprocessing due to hypersensitive upregulated sertonergic neurons, over or under (in about 20%) HPA, decreased size or pathology of the raphe nuclei, Neclus acumbens desensitization and a screwy ACC,

I think I'm going to keep labeling. Just like you.

No, being a martyr makes you look like a twat in most cases. yes determinism is a fact although we are free to live as though it is not and while we have no control over our cognitive processes they move towards sex, food and the usual and so we can be fairly sure they are 'on our side'. No that's a possible vision of the future, the more realistic view is we really don't have a fucking clue although at an educated guess I would say we are at least a 1,000 years away from translating that kind of information into anything useful. I do understand how cryogenics work, I'm not against it, I just don't imagine it will be of use for quite some time.

I just read a few more replies before my last post and Wow...not a single one of you has any clue WHATSOEVER about neuroscience and psychiatry and still don't call yourself delusional.

[socialpiranha]

ok well it sounds like you have resigned yourself to the fact your a coward and a loser so what are you looking for by posting? i'm personally not gonna straight up comiserate with you cause i dont think social failure is a life sentence. Go lift weights and get big enough so people don't fuck with you anymore, if your past is embarrassing move somewhere else and reinvent yourself. Life is a game you just chose not to see it that way because you take other peoples meanings on things to be true. Beliefs and ideas are nothing unless you agree to give them meaning, if you wipe the slate clean its evident that you choose what means what in life. If you dont wipe the slate clean though you are doomed to be a product of your beliefs and ideas rather than the one who controls them.

I can tell that there are some things you're missing. If BF were to move, it wouldn't do him much good, not unless he first developed an understanding, until then, he'd just be very prone to making his embarassments known to more people. He can't reinvent himself without that understanding and he'll just be putting a transparent bandaid on his injury. Wait for my reply to post #87, you might learn something from it too.

Can you give an example for the last part of your post that I've bolded?

ok an example would be as follows. A person has the belief that they are a coward...If all beliefs are suddenly understood as learned ideas which are unconsciously creating their own meaning, it will be evident that the meaning is not inherent and meaning becomes a conscious choice.Yes you could choose to think of yourself as a coward, but it would be a conscious choice not an unconscious one based on preconcieved notions.

Sufficed to say that you would probably not choose to think of yourself as a coward once you really had the choice. We think we are making conscious choices when we're really just reacting to preconcieved notions. We assume that every belief or idea we have is already inherently true so we are doomed to react to it as if it were. The closest thing to the truth is, though, that we have no way of knowing if even our most basic ideas are true other than in relation to what we have been taught. So why take a positive stance on things and state that "i am a coward" or whatever, by doing that you are relinquishing the power to choose freely. The funny part is, once you have the freedom to consciously choose what means what, there are no choices to make because everything just means what you want it to mean.

This is the case to the respective amount and extent to which you suspend your beliefs...

Its a round about way of saying that you make things true by believing them...right down to the belief that "certain things are inherently, objectively true" ......belief leaves no room for choice

oh and dont worry about selling me on cryonics if i could afford it i would do it!