151 replies to this topic

[nupi]

Actually no, nupi, the happier and more optimistic people tend to be less realistic (in studies) than the discontented. You have to be a little delusional to be really happy in his world. I see it all the time - unpleasant mediocre arseholes who seriously believe they are God's gift to womankind (or mankind, or humanity) and derive a lot of happiness from their delusions of grandeur.

A little delusional probably helps - ignorance is bliss after all. Very delusional (as in depression) does not.

But yes, I consider therapy to be a massive waste of resources, too. Give me pills or GTFO (but obviously, at 200bucks per hour, therapy is a lot more attractive than a couple of capsules of Fluoxetine).

Have you ever been really unbearably depressed (or dying)? I would rather prefer some drug-induced delusional happiness.

Actually, I even prefer the SSRI induced happiness (and the, mild, side effects it has) to my garden variety dysthimic state - and once we get to MDD, it becomes blindingly obvious which one is preferable.

I have also recently gotten a Philips GoLite, we'll see if it helps...

Edited by nupi, 13 April 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[nowayout]

This may be interesting to you.

Hmmm... Well Aubrey definitely has a better beard....

Other thoughts:

He omits artificial social factors that contribute to incidents. For instance, watching the news is always stressful and it designed to be that way and news casters regularly get your adrenalin running with their facial expressions and reactions to everything. Everything seems to be an emergency and that's all news, and it is addicting IMO these designs are predatory marketing given the existence of MDD. Why not consolidate all of that kind of news to one channel (ENN the Emergency News Network) and not present emergencies, nuclear war threats, and constant emotional heartache. I think constant exposure to this stuff can be debilitating. I've seen it in more than one person.

In the case of identical twins, one often has better nutrition in the womb than the other. Does health order effect depression? If you are the less healthy twin, are you more likely to have depression?

More on the role of adrenalin? Adding my experience to what he's saying, the presence of adrenalin has a strong effect on depression (in my experience adrenalin enhances other feelings), why mess with the other stuff and not start with checking adrenalin levels as kids and lowering them if needed? IIRC he was talking about blocking it in the brain, what about just plain blocking some of it all together? Am I missing something? This is a hindsight question and I'm exhausted ATM.

It's an introductory lecture, but even so he talks a lot about the predisposing effect of stressors. In fact, he mentions that he has devoted a good part of his life to studying the role of the stress response in depression and he indeed talks quite a but about the role of glucocorticoids (e.g., cortisol, a stress hormone produced by the adrenal gland) and their interaction with genetic factors.

Edited by viveutvivas, 13 April 2013 - 04:11 PM.

[YOLF]

I think he could tackle the problem from a better angle. He's correcting a social problem by putting something into the brain. Correct the social problem, then see how the brains react. Without the stress stimuli, the brain may function just fine and there may be no instance of depression. Social systems need to be corrected first before proceeding with chemistry which may impact intergenerational development or in alot of cases with psychiatry, prevent reproduction all together.

I appreciate his dedication, perhaps he'll tackle the social issues which contribute to MDD more in later lectures.

[OpaqueMind]

A lot of the problem with beating depression is that we may change our outlook on life, or alter our relation to it, but we do not alter our relation to ourselves. Our self-schema is what dictates our happiness essentially. There is no greater force in the human psyche that that which seeks to maintain its self-identity, and therefore even if you feel like you've rid yourself of things that could trigger your depression, if your self-schema remains the same then you will always return to the same old patterns of emotion. One of the key factors that maintains depression is the feeling of helplessness, the feeling of being pushed around by the world and not being able to do anything about it, or even having got to the point where you have resigned from life and do not even care anymore.

This may seem strange, but weightlifting helps quite a lot... it gives you a sense of personal mastery over yourself, it has measurable gains so you can see your advancement, it makes you feel and look better and it gives you a sense that you're working at yourself. This is great for your self-conception. I'm not talking about turning into an inflated pin cushion with peas for testicles. I'm talking about raw power. Most routines suck a big one, and will get you nowhere, fast. I highly recommend the stronglifts program. No matter your body type, you can gain substantial strength. Form is key, along with starting low and gradual progression. Hopefully you have enough funds to join a gym and do this. Try it for a month and see how you feel!

To attack the long-lasting depression I've suffered with for years, I found great solace in studying Eastern philosophy, first in the form of Alan Watts lectures, then onto studying Zen Buddhism itself. Thought is inherently untrue... no system of symbols, however complex, can capture the essence of the world. The world is in a state of constant flux, and you as an aspect of the world are also an aspect of this flux. The static world and unchanging self are therefore entirely illusory. All pain arises from being ignorant of this truth. When we believe it is possible to grasp and hold onto things, we are let down repeatedly as these illusions crumble one by one, again and again. True peace comes from realising that nothing can ever be pinned down, that flow is the essence of existence, and along with this releasing the ego to this flow. Now, this is a very difficult to accomplish, and cannot be hinted at conceptually but not fully realized. However you need the conceptual basis as a springboard to the full realisation and freedom that is possible through a deeper understanding. There are ways and means to get there. Meditation is one. The psychological state of flow is another. If you are interested in this check out some Alan Watts lectures on YT. You can also torrent free audiobooks for listening on the go. I like to take a walk in the park or down the dark midnight streets and just dissolve into footsteps and sounds.

Good luck man. I hope you can beat this thing, and hopefully glean something positive from what I have written.

[nowayout]

This may seem strange, but weightlifting helps quite a lot... it gives you a sense of personal mastery over yourself, it has measurable gains so you can see your advancement, it makes you feel and look better and it gives you a sense that you're working at yourself. This is great for your self-conception.

It can't hurt, and it can probably help if you are starting to do it, because it provides some novelty to the brain. But having done weight training for more than 20 years, at this point I can't say that it helps much anymore.

[nowayout]

One of the key factors that maintains depression is the feeling of helplessness, the feeling of being pushed around by the world and not being able to do anything about it, ...

This is an important point, but in my experience it has more directly to do with anxiety. Maybe depression comes after as a side effect of that anxiety.

For example, my upstairs neighbor left her bathroom fan on today. The vibration is very disturbing in my bedroom and there really is nothing more I can do about it (I asked her not to in the past). My level of anxiety is climbing to stratospheric levels by the minute because I know I won't be able to sleep tonight unless it pleases her to remember to turn it off. I don't have the money to move to a place with no neighbors, so I'm stuck. What I am left with is self-medicating whatever prescriptions I have left over in the hope something will make me relax.

I think when we talk about anxiety and depression it really should be taken into account that lots and lots of people today live in situations they ARE in fact helpless to change. The idea of learned helplessness is all fine and dandy from the point of view of Ivy League academia, that are of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich, where the default assumption is that people have control of their circumstances. What I want to know is how one should be expected to deal with ACTUAL helplessness.

Edited by viveutvivas, 13 April 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[OpaqueMind]

Simply, be proactive about it. There is no situation that cannot be fixed. One, wax earplugs work amazingly, seriously, get some. Two, meditation, repeated meditation to deal with states of anxiety properly. There is no other way. If you do not use your brain, your brain will use you. This is the only way you can learn to control your mind and emotions at will. Three, ask her, with confidence to not do it. Get her number, so you can text/call her to remind her to turn it off if she forgets. Most people are not malicious, but simply forgetful/ignorant. If you explain your situation, unless she is devoid of empathy, she will compromise. Failing that, sneak in while she's out and sabotage her fan, with subterfuge else she'll know it's you. Fifth, go to a family member/friends house for a while. Sixth, WAX EARPLUGS. I'm not kidding man. Those foam cyclinders dont work for shit. They're not actually made of wax, silicone I think actually. They would easily block out the sound of a fan. Unless you have the hearing of a bat. Then you're quite fucked.

[YOLF]

There's always pandora.com...

[protoject]

I think often strange correlations are made between mentally ill and creative people. I have inferred an intuitive understanding that people are able to be functional while they are mentally ill, but this does not mean that their life is something good or something that they want. I also believe often that mental illness is misunderstood as genius. I might have flashes of brilliance at times but this doesn't stop me from suffering most of the time.

[Adaptogen]

There's always pandora.com...

personally, pandora makes me more depressed. i prefer spotify

[adamh]

First of all, depression has little to do with your personal circumstances. There is plenty of depression among the rich and famous who you would thing had everything they could want. There are probably as many causes of depression as there are of schizophrenia. Anti depressant drugs sometimes work, you have to try the right one. They do unfortunately have side effects and sometimes none of them seem to work.

A novel "new" antidepressant is the old drug ketamine, usually used for anesthesia. It has been found that low doses can releave mild to severe depression in a high percentage of people within hours and the effects last for days, up to 2 weeks.

http://www.medscape....warticle/777190


Medscape:How is ketamine being used in psychiatry? And is this a relatively recent approach?

Dr. Feifel: Psychiatric use of ketamine is very recent and stems from research findings in patients with treatment-resistant depression. In such patients, infusional ketamine at a dose that is significantly lower than the anesthetic dose can produce a strong antidepressant response.

Not only do these challenging depressed patients respond, but the response is very rapid. Ketamine differs from anything we have with which to treat depression. The efficacy rate is higher than traditional antidepressant medications, and the onset of the antidepressant effect is almost immediate compared with conventional antidepressants, which have a latent efficacy that can take several weeks to fully manifest. This novel therapeutic profile is what has garnered so much attention for ketamine.

[Raptor87]

First of all, depression has little to do with your personal circumstances. There is plenty of depression among the rich and famous who you would thing had everything they could want. There are probably as many causes of depression as there are of schizophrenia. Anti depressant drugs sometimes work, you have to try the right one. They do unfortunately have side effects and sometimes none of them seem to work.

A novel "new" antidepressant is the old drug ketamine, usually used for anesthesia. It has been found that low doses can releave mild to severe depression in a high percentage of people within hours and the effects last for days, up to 2 weeks.

http://www.medscape....warticle/777190


Medscape:How is ketamine being used in psychiatry? And is this a relatively recent approach?

Dr. Feifel: Psychiatric use of ketamine is very recent and stems from research findings in patients with treatment-resistant depression. In such patients, infusional ketamine at a dose that is significantly lower than the anesthetic dose can produce a strong antidepressant response.

Not only do these challenging depressed patients respond, but the response is very rapid. Ketamine differs from anything we have with which to treat depression. The efficacy rate is higher than traditional antidepressant medications, and the onset of the antidepressant effect is almost immediate compared with conventional antidepressants, which have a latent efficacy that can take several weeks to fully manifest. This novel therapeutic profile is what has garnered so much attention for ketamine.

Yeah! Good luck finding Ketamine, here it's almost impossible. Although it's interesting because the effects seem to last long term with a single dose. There is another drug MXE, or Methoxetamine that is covered in this Vicearticle. The problem is that there is no safetyprofile on the drug. Who the fuck knows what the long term effects would be ingesting that? Or what could happen? Although it seem to be potent against depression and there seems to be some benefit for us with OCD.

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Sometimes I wonder if SSRI's is a big joke. I mean they are widely used and the effects doesn't ad up in research, and the amount of money pharma makes on them is just ridiculous. They have been branded as antidepressants in a modern world where the word antidepressant barely exists. Doctors will look back and wonder WTF where they thinking. I think doc's today are both naive and deluded believing that these shitty drugs work. I think pharma should be sued for marketing them as antidepressants.

[YOLF]

I think often strange correlations are made between mentally ill and creative people. I have inferred an intuitive understanding that people are able to be functional while they are mentally ill, but this does not mean that their life is something good or something that they want. I also believe often that mental illness is misunderstood as genius. I might have flashes of brilliance at times but this doesn't stop me from suffering most of the time.

Is it correlation if the creative are attempting to express the thoughts of the mentally ill, or if the work is directed at the mentally ill?

There's always pandora.com...

personally, pandora makes me more depressed. i prefer spotify

The important thing is that no one goes trespassing, esp. into the home of the opposite sex!

First of all, depression has little to do with your personal circumstances. There is plenty of depression among the rich and famous who you would thing had everything they could want. There are probably as many causes of depression as there are of schizophrenia. Anti depressant drugs sometimes work, you have to try the right one. They do unfortunately have side effects and sometimes none of them seem to work.

A novel "new" antidepressant is the old drug ketamine, usually used for anesthesia. It has been found that low doses can releave mild to severe depression in a high percentage of people within hours and the effects last for days, up to 2 weeks.

http://www.medscape....warticle/777190


Medscape:How is ketamine being used in psychiatry? And is this a relatively recent approach?

Dr. Feifel: Psychiatric use of ketamine is very recent and stems from research findings in patients with treatment-resistant depression. In such patients, infusional ketamine at a dose that is significantly lower than the anesthetic dose can produce a strong antidepressant response.

Not only do these challenging depressed patients respond, but the response is very rapid. Ketamine differs from anything we have with which to treat depression. The efficacy rate is higher than traditional antidepressant medications, and the onset of the antidepressant effect is almost immediate compared with conventional antidepressants, which have a latent efficacy that can take several weeks to fully manifest. This novel therapeutic profile is what has garnered so much attention for ketamine.

But how addictive is Ketamine?

[Nordmann]

The ultimate anti depressive cure you say!? What? Workout?!

[nowayout]

The ultimate anti depressive cure you say!? What? Workout?!

Already been covered. For many (like me) not a cure at all. Guys on fitness and bodybuilding forums complain as much of depression as on any other forum.

Edited by viveutvivas, 15 April 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[YOLF]

They may be the ones in transition. Working out is great for feelings of the present. Feelings of the past not so much. The real difficulty is finding the impetus to start and maintain a long term work out regimen.

[nowayout]

They may be the ones in transition. Working out is great for feelings of the present. Feelings of the past not so much. The real difficulty is finding the impetus to start and maintain a long term work out regimen.

I have been working out religiously for more than 20 years and no, it doesn't cure my depression, which has become worse over the years.

Edited by viveutvivas, 15 April 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[YOLF]

Different physiological causes I guess. Do you know what causes your depression?

[nowayout]

Different physiological causes I guess. Do you know what causes your depression?

Life? Aging? Loneliness? Genetics?

[haps]

Because society around us takes away most of our freedem and a lot of courage is needed to live a live. Thats whats i think makes many around me depressed. Worring more about job then fat around his belly. I write like 18yr old schoolboy wich i am not, but somtimes its simple, doing what you want makes You happy. I have no job (finished IT bachelor degree becuase my parents wanted) and all my money goes from gambling. Also im a gaba drag addict, when poeple say i have problem with drugs, whats they most of them mean is they have problem with me takeing drags. Chemicals saved me (those wich i choosed, not the doctor), i made some crazy decisions ignoring whats anybody else whats from me. Whats i mean choosing the way you want to live is the most importang thing to do. And please dont get me wrong, drugs are bad and usually they will take you down on the long run. its different for every one of us, one is depressed because of social fobia, and somone else cant stand his fat ass. But im talking about the people who are healthy and free to do anything. Whats my soulation ? Be hedonist :D Im sorry for all the mistakes i dont use englisch very often and im not sober. Have a nice life !

This is somhowe artistic representation: consoul by lassegg on youtube for example.

Edited by haps, 16 April 2013 - 03:22 AM.

[YOLF]

Different physiological causes I guess. Do you know what causes your depression?

Life? Aging? Loneliness? Genetics?

Same here! Living with terminal anxiety which is making me such a weak person that I missed out on life is a strong factor. I tried everything but nothing worked. I feel utterly defeated and my expirationdate for doing what I like is now gone. I might find something else, something more laid back to do. But living with a wound that says that I missed out on my whole youth is a lot to bare with. I don't regret anything, its not like I had any choice. It's just empty and sad and it has put me in a situation that is almost impossible to solve.

5 years ago I started an intensive self help route which I regret now, it just fucked me up worse and wasted 5 years of my life. I should have just tried to live the best I could! Instead I wasted it on crap that didn't work at all. I can't vouch for doc's prescription either because they didnt work. I wish I could have lived like everyone else, a normal life, that would have been something.

@BF Don't talk about the death anxiety too loudly, people might try to help you accept it through proverbial stoning.

@VV and ALL I understand the life and aging part, but man, I'm in the process of signing all of my cryonics papers and I'm on that wave of uplifting attitude! I briefly felt better than ever, and am now part of that feeling that is looking forward to so much life! I can only imagine how good I'll feel every month when I make sure to pay my life insurance. If you haven't done it, I recommend it strongly. Part of it depends on who you talk to too. I didn't feel nearly as good with my previous insurance guy as I did talking to a cryonics specialist. PM me if you need his info. I've been feeling like documenting my experience and will be doing so when I'm all signed up.

[airplanepeanuts]

This may seem strange, but weightlifting helps quite a lot... it gives you a sense of personal mastery over yourself, it has measurable gains so you can see your advancement, it makes you feel and look better and it gives you a sense that you're working at yourself. This is great for your self-conception.

It can't hurt, and it can probably help if you are starting to do it, because it provides some novelty to the brain. But having done weight training for more than 20 years, at this point I can't say that it helps much anymore.

Actually it can hurt. Exercise is good but not everbody should want to "become stronger than 99% of the guys in your gym" That is a silly goal. Also you might give yourself a hernia or whatever.

[Raptor87]

Because society around us takes away most of our freedem and a lot of courage is needed to live a live. Thats whats i think makes many around me depressed. Worring more about job then fat around his belly. I write like 18yr old schoolboy wich i am not, but somtimes its simple, doing what you want makes You happy. I have no job (finished IT bachelor degree becuase my parents wanted) and all my money goes from gambling. Also im a gaba drag addict, when poeple say i have problem with drugs, whats they most of them mean is they have problem with me takeing drags. Chemicals saved me (those wich i choosed, not the doctor), i made some crazy decisions ignoring whats anybody else whats from me. Whats i mean choosing the way you want to live is the most importang thing to do. And please dont get me wrong, drugs are bad and usually they will take you down on the long run. its different for every one of us, one is depressed because of social fobia, and somone else cant stand his fat ass. But im talking about the people who are healthy and free to do anything. Whats my soulation ? Be hedonist :D Im sorry for all the mistakes i dont use englisch very often and im not sober. Have a nice life !

This is somhowe artistic representation: consoul by lassegg on youtube for example.

Is this what you meant? I think we lose a lot on experience when we rely on our impulses to maintain our happiness.

Why benzo´s? There are better options if you are going to use drugs anyway!

Edited by Mind, 05 September 2015 - 12:17 PM.

[YOLF]

Well you should have issues with dieing, it sucks and it doesn't sound like you've ever really lived or that current medical philosophies are going to come up with something that will fix your problems. My suggestion, live a really long time and find the solution you need. Find what makes you happy and live in happyness long enough that your depression is a fading memory.

[haps]

Is this what you meant?I think we lose a lot on experience when we rely on our impulses to maintain our happiness.

Why benzo´s? There are better options if you are going to use drugs anyway!

Yes, i meant that. I know better options, today tried some 4acodmt and 3mmc. But i find benzo save for everyday use. I've trough many GBL withdrawls, etizolam so i know what im dealing with. Its allso my hobby to study drugs in theory and practise. Maybe one day ill find intersting job related with it

Edited by haps, 18 April 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[sparkk51]

Anyone here wish they could just get a cheap MRI scan and compare brains? I want to see whether I do have a significantly small hippocampus, because what I've felt for the past 6 years (since I was 13) is definitely not just psychological.

I've entered into a group buy for NSI-189, which has increased the size of rat hippocampi by 20%. I can't recall how much was taken for how long, but it didn't even take a year. I'll try and let you guys know how things work out over in the forum regarding NSI-189.

Edited by sparkk51, 21 April 2013 - 04:46 AM.

[nupi]

This whole my life passes by without experiences train of thought just struck me the past couple of days - I am in a nice hotel on vacation in a far away country (like 12h of flight far away), but for my life I cannot motivate myself to even go out.Thankfully a friend of mine will join me in a couple of days, so someone will at least kick me to do something...

The Fluoxetine prevents me from experiencing the real emotional pain associated with that (or rather, makes me not care much about it), but a rational level, I still am not happy with the outcome. If I tune out the thoughts that I should be doing something, I am actually pretty content with doing jack shit. Such are the wonders of SSRIs....

Edited by nupi, 21 April 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[nupi]

It feels kind of wrong but I agree

[Doktor]

I think depression is very hard to beat, because 99% of the time there is no "Chemical Imbalance". Realize that pharmaceutical companies have no interest in your mental health, and have only propagated such B.S (like the low serotonin theory) in order to sell their drugs.

Depression is hard to beat because - in essence - there is nothing to actually defeat. I strongly believe that depression is a learned behavior, even on a sub-concious level through all of the environmental stimuli that condition us during our development.

So, if you want to "beat your depression", you need to start getting in the habit of not moping and thinking negatively (I'm not trying to be rude). Drugs can definitely help with this, so long as you pay attention to how they affect your mood/behaviour, and attempt to carry this change on past the duration of the substances effects.

I'm depressed occasionally, and have been majorly depressed for at least a few years in the past, so I'm not just trying to say, "People are depressed because they are mopes", or anything like that. However, the mentality of "It's not my fault, its a chemical imbalance, I can't help it" is very similar to what the pod people from AA or NA say ("I am powerless to my addiction, it's my genetics, etc".). In the end, you can believe that if you want, but I can fucking guarantee you will never become well... which has a subjective meaning anyway, doesn't it?

You have what it takes to beat your depression, and you don't need anything you don't already have to do it.

[Tom_]

GEOGTFO. Yes the 'bullshit' of low serotonin theory...I remember that, it was suggested in the bloody sixtes.

I completely disagree with your grossly over generalised theory of depression being a learned behaviour (that isn't to say its not a feature in some depressed patients; you can certainly induce it (forced swim test as an example)).

What's the etiology of behavior however?