60 replies to this topic

[MrHappy]

In this thread: a full and open discussion about anything to do with ketosis.

[YOLF]

How about an explanation?

[MrHappy]

How about an explanation?

Ketosis is the name given to a physical state, where your cellular energy is derived from ketones, rather than glucose.

Ketosis can be achieved by limiting carbohydrate intake <20g per day, or maintaining a ratio of fat to carbs at around 4:1.

There are numerous benefits for weight loss, epilepsy, diabetes, irritable bowel disease, allergies, starving some forms of cancer and other applications.

[YOLF]

How does it effect life span? Are there varying degrees of ketosis? All I'm seeing are articles on it being a bad thing. Are the benefits long term? What other benefits are there?

[Hebbeh]

How does it effect life span? Are there varying degrees of ketosis? All I'm seeing are articles on it being a bad thing. Are the benefits long term? What other benefits are there?

Ketogenic diet has nothing to do with diabetic ketosis. One is a safe healthy low carb diet the other a life threatening medical condition. Complete books have been written on ketogenic diets and is beyond the scope of a simple forum post if you have no knowledge of the subject. It would be best if you studied and read up on the subject in order to discuss it in depth.

[MrHappy]

How does it effect life span? Are there varying degrees of ketosis? All I'm seeing are articles on it being a bad thing. Are the benefits long term? What other benefits are there?

It would only improve your life-span by possibly helping to prevent lifestyle damage or death by a few common (metabolic) diseases like Alzheimer's (type 3 diabetes), type 2 diabetes, some cancers. There may be some additional longevity benefits from lowering calorie consumption as a by-product of the diet, but that's another discussion.

Here's a primer to start you off:
http://en.wikipedia....rbohydrate_diet

[lourdaud]

What's your thoughts on ketosis and CFS?
I'm more than three weeks in and I'm experiencing worsened fatigue and drop in testosterone levels :/

[Chupo]

How does it effect life span? Are there varying degrees of ketosis? All I'm seeing are articles on it being a bad thing. Are the benefits long term? What other benefits are there?

It should have a positive effect on lifespan.

When fats are consumed, they undergo beta-oxidation, which can be thought of as the equivalent of glycolysis for fats. The end products of this process are mainly dependent on mitochondrial complex II to complete metabolism.

Complex I (needed for glucose metabolism) produces more reactive oxygen species (ROS) than complex II (needed for fat metabolism) (8-10). ROS are highly reactive molecules that cause oxidative damage and can promote aging. It is thought that life extension through dietary restriction is a result of decreased oxidative damage (11-14).
During dietary restriction, glycolysis is reduced and lipid metabolism is increased. As people age, the opposite occurs (15). Several studies have shown that reducing glycolysis increases life span, while increasing glycolysis decreases life span (16-19).

Metabolism of fats rather than glucose has advantages other than just reducing the amount of ROS produced. The breakdown of fats produces the antioxidant NADPH, which can help prevent oxidative stress in the body. Furthermore, when fat metabolism is up-regulated, there is a greater turnover rate of fats and proteins, thereby reducing the accumulation of oxidized fatty acids (20).

http://understandnutrition.com/2012/08/27/what-causes-aging-and-how-does-dietary-restriction-increase-life-span/

[MrHappy]

What's your thoughts on ketosis and CFS?
I'm more than three weeks in and I'm experiencing worsened fatigue and drop in testosterone levels :/

Actually, I've had CFS - after glandular fever. My advice would be to focus on your liver health with supplements and specific anti-parasitics (multi vitamin(x2), taurine, milk thistle, wormwood, clove oil) and *force* yourself to eat/move around, *every* day. Avoid anything that negatively affects your liver, such as alcohol.

Although initially, rolling over in bed was enough to knock me out for another day, I managed to get back to work (half days at first) after about 5-6 weeks, but couldn't drink alcohol without falling asleep for about 18 months.

I'm not sure I would attempt ketosis with CFS, but if you do, I would increase your calories and green vegetable portions.

[lourdaud]

What's your thoughts on ketosis and CFS?
I'm more than three weeks in and I'm experiencing worsened fatigue and drop in testosterone levels :/

Actually, I've had CFS - after glandular fever. My advice would be to focus on your liver health with supplements and specific anti-parasitics (multi vitamin(x2), taurine, milk thistle, wormwood, clove oil) and *force* yourself to eat/move around, *every* day. Avoid anything that negatively affects your liver, such as alcohol.

Although initially, rolling over in bed was enough to knock me out for another day, I managed to get back to work (half days at first) after about 5-6 weeks, but couldn't drink alcohol without falling asleep for about 18 months.

I'm not sure I would attempt ketosis with CFS, but if you do, I would increase your calories and green vegetable portions.

What! This is totally new to me! Considering how many drugs and supplements I'm constantly taking this may actually be a major culprit..
I'll look into the supps you suggested and try to minimize my supplement consumption, unfortunately I depend heavily on the psych drugs so I'm not sure I can do much about that.

[theconomist]

What's your thoughts on ketosis and CFS?
I'm more than three weeks in and I'm experiencing worsened fatigue and drop in testosterone levels :/

Actually, I've had CFS - after glandular fever. My advice would be to focus on your liver health with supplements and specific anti-parasitics (multi vitamin(x2), taurine, milk thistle, wormwood, clove oil) and *force* yourself to eat/move around, *every* day. Avoid anything that negatively affects your liver, such as alcohol.

Although initially, rolling over in bed was enough to knock me out for another day, I managed to get back to work (half days at first) after about 5-6 weeks, but couldn't drink alcohol without falling asleep for about 18 months.

I'm not sure I would attempt ketosis with CFS, but if you do, I would increase your calories and green vegetable portions.

This is something that has always troubled me with ketogenic diets.
I love the idea of eating a low carb diet (I try to aim for less than 100g a day for several reasons); all my carb intake comes from vegetables and what I call ''carb residue'' from other foods.
A ketogenic diet as far as I'm aware implies 5% of your daily calories coming from carbs; how is one supposed to eat enough ''healthy'' green veggies to be able to reach micronutrient goals without going over this 20g limit.
I like to eat at least 500g of green veggies a day (300g of broc, and 200g of spinach/lettuce) and this alone puts you at 30g of carbs. Add in an avocado and you're passed 50g of carbs a day.
I understand eating a keto diet for weight loss purposes or to slow tumor growth but otherways one would be missing out on a lot of vegetables with good data backing up their positive health effects.

Is there a way to increase your green vegetable intake while staying in ketosis?

[MrHappy]

What's your thoughts on ketosis and CFS?
I'm more than three weeks in and I'm experiencing worsened fatigue and drop in testosterone levels :/

Actually, I've had CFS - after glandular fever. My advice would be to focus on your liver health with supplements and specific anti-parasitics (multi vitamin(x2), taurine, milk thistle, wormwood, clove oil) and *force* yourself to eat/move around, *every* day. Avoid anything that negatively affects your liver, such as alcohol.

Although initially, rolling over in bed was enough to knock me out for another day, I managed to get back to work (half days at first) after about 5-6 weeks, but couldn't drink alcohol without falling asleep for about 18 months.

I'm not sure I would attempt ketosis with CFS, but if you do, I would increase your calories and green vegetable portions.

This is something that has always troubled me with ketogenic diets.
I love the idea of eating a low carb diet (I try to aim for less than 100g a day for several reasons); all my carb intake comes from vegetables and what I call ''carb residue'' from other foods.
A ketogenic diet as far as I'm aware implies 5% of your daily calories coming from carbs; how is one supposed to eat enough ''healthy'' green veggies to be able to reach micronutrient goals without going over this 20g limit.
I like to eat at least 500g of green veggies a day (300g of broc, and 200g of spinach/lettuce) and this alone puts you at 30g of carbs. Add in an avocado and you're passed 50g of carbs a day.
I understand eating a keto diet for weight loss purposes or to slow tumor growth but otherways one would be missing out on a lot of vegetables with good data backing up their positive health effects.

Is there a way to increase your green vegetable intake while staying in ketosis?

As a low-carb vegetarian, my answer is, yes.

The important thing about vegetables is 'net' carbs - the fibre component doesn't count towards your daily targets, which makes things a little easier.

I've got an excel spreadsheet on my work computer (I'll post it here) that has a table of vegetables and their carbohydrate content.

[eddielang]

What's your thoughts on ketosis and CFS?
I'm more than three weeks in and I'm experiencing worsened fatigue and drop in testosterone levels :/

Actually, I've had CFS - after glandular fever. My advice would be to focus on your liver health with supplements and specific anti-parasitics (multi vitamin(x2), taurine, milk thistle, wormwood, clove oil) and *force* yourself to eat/move around, *every* day. Avoid anything that negatively affects your liver, such as alcohol.

Although initially, rolling over in bed was enough to knock me out for another day, I managed to get back to work (half days at first) after about 5-6 weeks, but couldn't drink alcohol without falling asleep for about 18 months.

I'm not sure I would attempt ketosis with CFS, but if you do, I would increase your calories and green vegetable portions.

This is something that has always troubled me with ketogenic diets.
I love the idea of eating a low carb diet (I try to aim for less than 100g a day for several reasons); all my carb intake comes from vegetables and what I call ''carb residue'' from other foods.
A ketogenic diet as far as I'm aware implies 5% of your daily calories coming from carbs; how is one supposed to eat enough ''healthy'' green veggies to be able to reach micronutrient goals without going over this 20g limit.
I like to eat at least 500g of green veggies a day (300g of broc, and 200g of spinach/lettuce) and this alone puts you at 30g of carbs. Add in an avocado and you're passed 50g of carbs a day.
I understand eating a keto diet for weight loss purposes or to slow tumor growth but otherways one would be missing out on a lot of vegetables with good data backing up their positive health effects.

Is there a way to increase your green vegetable intake while staying in ketosis?

Compare grass fed organ meats, or shellfish to leafy greens. Lots of micro nutrient nutrition if you eat the whole animal.

[Chupo]

A ketogenic diet as far as I'm aware implies 5% of your daily calories coming from carbs; how is one supposed to eat enough ''healthy'' green veggies to be able to reach micronutrient goals without going over this 20g limit.
I like to eat at least 500g of green veggies a day (300g of broc, and 200g of spinach/lettuce) and this alone puts you at 30g of carbs. Add in an avocado and you're passed 50g of carbs a day.
I understand eating a keto diet for weight loss purposes or to slow tumor growth but otherways one would be missing out on a lot of vegetables with good data backing up their positive health effects.

Is there a way to increase your green vegetable intake while staying in ketosis?

It looks like you aren't subtracting fiber. When I put 300g broc, 200g spinach and an avocado in cronometer, I get 17.5g of non-fiber carbs.

*Edit: I see Mr. Happy beat me to it.

Edited by Chupo, 16 April 2013 - 01:52 PM.

[theconomist]

A ketogenic diet as far as I'm aware implies 5% of your daily calories coming from carbs; how is one supposed to eat enough ''healthy'' green veggies to be able to reach micronutrient goals without going over this 20g limit.
I like to eat at least 500g of green veggies a day (300g of broc, and 200g of spinach/lettuce) and this alone puts you at 30g of carbs. Add in an avocado and you're passed 50g of carbs a day.
I understand eating a keto diet for weight loss purposes or to slow tumor growth but otherways one would be missing out on a lot of vegetables with good data backing up their positive health effects.

Is there a way to increase your green vegetable intake while staying in ketosis?

It looks like you aren't subtracting fiber. When I put 300g broc, 200g spinach and an avocado in cronometer, I get 17.5g of non-fiber carbs.

*Edit: I see Mr. Happy beat me to it.

I do count them however even if you do count net carbs it's still rather difficult to stay below 20g.
It would be much easier if you could get in ketosis while staying under 50g net carbs.

What's your thoughts on ketosis and CFS?
I'm more than three weeks in and I'm experiencing worsened fatigue and drop in testosterone levels :/

Actually, I've had CFS - after glandular fever. My advice would be to focus on your liver health with supplements and specific anti-parasitics (multi vitamin(x2), taurine, milk thistle, wormwood, clove oil) and *force* yourself to eat/move around, *every* day. Avoid anything that negatively affects your liver, such as alcohol.

Although initially, rolling over in bed was enough to knock me out for another day, I managed to get back to work (half days at first) after about 5-6 weeks, but couldn't drink alcohol without falling asleep for about 18 months.

I'm not sure I would attempt ketosis with CFS, but if you do, I would increase your calories and green vegetable portions.

This is something that has always troubled me with ketogenic diets.
I love the idea of eating a low carb diet (I try to aim for less than 100g a day for several reasons); all my carb intake comes from vegetables and what I call ''carb residue'' from other foods.
A ketogenic diet as far as I'm aware implies 5% of your daily calories coming from carbs; how is one supposed to eat enough ''healthy'' green veggies to be able to reach micronutrient goals without going over this 20g limit.
I like to eat at least 500g of green veggies a day (300g of broc, and 200g of spinach/lettuce) and this alone puts you at 30g of carbs. Add in an avocado and you're passed 50g of carbs a day.
I understand eating a keto diet for weight loss purposes or to slow tumor growth but otherways one would be missing out on a lot of vegetables with good data backing up their positive health effects.

Is there a way to increase your green vegetable intake while staying in ketosis?

Compare grass fed organ meats, or shellfish to leafy greens. Lots of micro nutrient nutrition if you eat the whole animal.

I don't eat meat due to the difficulty of finding grass fed beef and chicken where I live.
Once I go back to my country I'm planning to expand my father's farm to include sheep and goats for slaughter.

[lourdaud]

This is something that has always troubled me with ketogenic diets.
I love the idea of eating a low carb diet (I try to aim for less than 100g a day for several reasons); all my carb intake comes from vegetables and what I call ''carb residue'' from other foods.
A ketogenic diet as far as I'm aware implies 5% of your daily calories coming from carbs; how is one supposed to eat enough ''healthy'' green veggies to be able to reach micronutrient goals without going over this 20g limit.
I like to eat at least 500g of green veggies a day (300g of broc, and 200g of spinach/lettuce) and this alone puts you at 30g of carbs. Add in an avocado and you're passed 50g of carbs a day.
I understand eating a keto diet for weight loss purposes or to slow tumor growth but otherways one would be missing out on a lot of vegetables with good data backing up their positive health effects.

Is there a way to increase your green vegetable intake while staying in ketosis?

As a low-carb vegetarian, my answer is, yes.

The important thing about vegetables is 'net' carbs - the fibre component doesn't count towards your daily targets, which makes things a little easier.

I've got an excel spreadsheet on my work computer (I'll post it here) that has a table of vegetables and their carbohydrate content.

How about adding MCT and coconut oil? I daily ingest several table spoons of each and I don't get thrown out of ketosis even though I eat about 80 - 100 g of protein and 30 - 40 g of carbs per day. I make sure to split it up into 4 meals though, eating big meals often makes me feel uncomfortable.

Edited by lourdaud, 16 April 2013 - 04:57 PM.

[DePaw]

A cup each of kale, tomatoes, cauliflower, lettuce, zucchini, broccoli, collard greens, peppers, and asparagus (9 cups of vegetables) comes out to 29g net carb (carb - fibre).

[alecnevsky]

This is something that has always troubled me with ketogenic diets.
I love the idea of eating a low carb diet (I try to aim for less than 100g a day for several reasons); all my carb intake comes from vegetables and what I call ''carb residue'' from other foods.
A ketogenic diet as far as I'm aware implies 5% of your daily calories coming from carbs; how is one supposed to eat enough ''healthy'' green veggies to be able to reach micronutrient goals without going over this 20g limit.
I like to eat at least 500g of green veggies a day (300g of broc, and 200g of spinach/lettuce) and this alone puts you at 30g of carbs. Add in an avocado and you're passed 50g of carbs a day.
I understand eating a keto diet for weight loss purposes or to slow tumor growth but otherways one would be missing out on a lot of vegetables with good data backing up their positive health effects.

Is there a way to increase your green vegetable intake while staying in ketosis?

As a low-carb vegetarian, my answer is, yes.

The important thing about vegetables is 'net' carbs - the fibre component doesn't count towards your daily targets, which makes things a little easier.

I've got an excel spreadsheet on my work computer (I'll post it here) that has a table of vegetables and their carbohydrate content.

How about adding MCT and coconut oil? I daily ingest several table spoons of each and I don't get thrown out of ketosis even though I eat about 80 - 100 g of protein and 30 - 40 g of carbs per day. I make sure to split it up into 4 meals though, eating big meals often makes me feel uncomfortable.

Yeah I add it to my tea/coffe or food.

How do you guys max your fat intake? I added cheeses on my dairy front. I am finding it difficult to keep a 65:25:5 (fat:protein:carbs) ratio going.

I am also feeling weak as shit in my HIT and aerobic sports. I clocked in at 5% body fat (this is 4 weeks into keto.) Has anyone done strength training on this? Does taking creatine make sense?

[Chupo]

How do you guys max your fat intake? I added cheeses on my dairy front. I am finding it difficult to keep a 65:25:5 (fat:protein:carbs) ratio going.

I cook most my veggies in butter (swimming in it) and once I hit everything on Cronometer, I'll drink coconut milk to add calories if I need to.

[DePaw]

Although I don't eat this way currently I ate zero carb "ZC" for quite some time and used home-made mayo to up my fat. I ate ~100g protein and ~190g fat daily, so 80% calories from fat. Breakfast was 4 eggs and 2 fl oz double cream, dinner was 325g meat with 100g mayo (dipping chunks in), and I snacked on cheese and gelatin-rich broth.

[theconomist]

Although I don't eat this way currently I ate zero carb "ZC" for quite some time and used home-made mayo to up my fat. I ate ~100g protein and ~190g fat daily, so 80% calories from fat. Breakfast was 4 eggs and 2 fl oz double cream, dinner was 325g meat with 100g mayo (dipping chunks in), and I snacked on cheese and gelatin-rich broth.

Surely this can't be healthy...


Try macademia nuts and avocados (less than 5g net carbs) if you want to up your fat intake in a more beneficial way.

Edited by theconomist, 17 April 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[DePaw]

What's not healthy about it? My homemade mayo is very low in omega-6 unlike commercial brands, the fat mix is 50% tallow, 25% each ghee and coconut oil.

[alecnevsky]

Although I don't eat this way currently I ate zero carb "ZC" for quite some time and used home-made mayo to up my fat. I ate ~100g protein and ~190g fat daily, so 80% calories from fat. Breakfast was 4 eggs and 2 fl oz double cream, dinner was 325g meat with 100g mayo (dipping chunks in), and I snacked on cheese and gelatin-rich broth.

Something tells me I not the type of person to eat 10 tablespoons of mayonaise for dinner. I really wish there could be an easier way to just stock up on fat without eating sticks of butter. (million dollar idea for supplement companies.)

I have diversified my fat sources to the max, but I am still barely making like 2kc a day (200gs) in fat. Butter, MCT, coconut, mayo, blue cheese, bacon, steak is barely enough. 2 tablespoons of coconut oil is only 260 calories.

Has anyone been able to combine like 5 tablespoons of coconut oil (650kc) with something to mask the taste?

[DePaw]

100g of my mayo is barely 3/4 of a cup. I use KTC coconut oil which has no taste or smell btw, might be worth seeking out if you dislike the taste of coconut oil.

What about drinking watered down cream with meals like a glass of milk, even sweeten it a little if you need to with stevia/whatever.

I also made a cool smoothie/shake a few times: 4 eggs, 1/4 double cream, 20g coconut oil, artificial sweetener and then water to desired thickness. I just melted the coconut oil then blended everything. 800 calories, 83% from fat, 30g protein, 76g fat, 3g carbs. You could also freeze if to make ice cream probably.

Edited by DePaw, 17 April 2013 - 08:56 PM.

[alecnevsky]

What about drinking watered down cream with meals like a glass of milk, even sweeten it a little if you need to with stevia/whatever.

Is this what you're talking about? Doesn't look bad actually!


Is this usually lactose-free?


Thanks! That looks very efficient. I would just literally pour a cup into my morning protein shake and chug it.


Edit: You should use MCT as it's already melted coconut oil essentially.

Edited by alecnevsky, 17 April 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[DePaw]

What about drinking watered down cream with meals like a glass of milk, even sweeten it a little if you need to with stevia/whatever.

Is this what you're talking about? Doesn't look bad actually!

Yes.

[xEva]

How does it effect life span? Are there varying degrees of ketosis? All I'm seeing are articles on it being a bad thing. Are the benefits long term? What other benefits are there?

It would only improve your life-span by possibly helping to prevent lifestyle damage or death by a few common (metabolic) diseases like Alzheimer's (type 3 diabetes), type 2 diabetes, some cancers. There may be some additional longevity benefits from lowering calorie consumption as a by-product of the diet, but that's another discussion.

Here's a primer to start you off:
http://en.wikipedia....rbohydrate_diet

I see MrHappy still does not know the difference between a ketogenic diet and a low carb diet. Even the link to low carb diets that he gave as a primer to a ketogenic diet states: "Low carb diets are sometimes ketogenic." Sometimes is the key word here. Not every low carb diet is a ketogenic diet.

It is very unfortunate that the quality of posted info on this forum has recently taken a dive, and the threads that MrHappy have been moderating are a good example of it.

[MrHappy]

How does it effect life span? Are there varying degrees of ketosis? All I'm seeing are articles on it being a bad thing. Are the benefits long term? What other benefits are there?

It would only improve your life-span by possibly helping to prevent lifestyle damage or death by a few common (metabolic) diseases like Alzheimer's (type 3 diabetes), type 2 diabetes, some cancers. There may be some additional longevity benefits from lowering calorie consumption as a by-product of the diet, but that's another discussion.

Here's a primer to start you off:
http://en.wikipedia....rbohydrate_diet

I see MrHappy still does not know the difference between a ketogenic diet and a low carb diet. Even the link to low carb diets that he gave as a primer to a ketogenic diet states: "Low carb diets are sometimes ketogenic." Sometimes is the key word here. Not every low carb diet is a ketogenic diet.

It is very unfortunate that the quality of posted info on this forum has recently taken a dive, and the threads that MrHappy have been moderating are a good example of it.

It's a pity you are unable to read the differences between words 'ketosis' and 'ketogenic'. I'm also getting a tad tired of your constant ad hominem attacks.

[misterE]

Ketosis puts you body in a unhealthy metabolic state. Ketosis promotes free-radical formation, lowers your cellular antioxidants and damages the circulatory system [1-3]!


[1] Free Radic Biol Med. 1998 Dec;25(9):1083-8. Ketosis (acetoacetate) can generate oxygen radicals and cause increased lipid peroxidation and growth inhibition in human endothelial cells. Jain SK, Kannan K, Lim G.


[2] Diabetes. 1999 Sep;48(9):1850-5. Hyperketonemia can increase lipid peroxidation and lower glutathione levels in human erythrocytes in vitro and in type 1 diabetic patients. Jain SK, McVie R.


[3] Diabetes Care. 1999 Jul;22(7):1171-5. Effect of hyperketonemia on plasma lipid peroxidation levels in diabetic patients. Jain SK, McVie R, Jackson R.

[xEva]

How does it effect life span? Are there varying degrees of ketosis? All I'm seeing are articles on it being a bad thing. Are the benefits long term? What other benefits are there?

It would only improve your life-span by possibly helping to prevent lifestyle damage or death by a few common (metabolic) diseases like Alzheimer's (type 3 diabetes), type 2 diabetes, some cancers. There may be some additional longevity benefits from lowering calorie consumption as a by-product of the diet, but that's another discussion.

Here's a primer to start you off:
http://en.wikipedia....rbohydrate_diet

I see MrHappy still does not know the difference between a ketogenic diet and a low carb diet. Even the link to low carb diets that he gave as a primer to a ketogenic diet states: "Low carb diets are sometimes ketogenic." Sometimes is the key word here. Not every low carb diet is a ketogenic diet.

It is very unfortunate that the quality of posted info on this forum has recently taken a dive, and the threads that MrHappy have been moderating are a good example of it.

It's a pity you are unable to read the differences between words 'ketosis' and 'ketogenic'. I'm also getting a tad tired of your constant ad hominem attacks.

So, MrHappy settled our intellectual dispute about what is a ketogenic diet and how it differs from a low-carb diet by banning me from the forum and flagging me as a spammer! (I've been temporarily unbanned by a friend.) This brings up a question who is fit to be a moderator here. Because, if MrHappy were just any other dude, I would not be bothered by his posing nonsense. Being a moderator here carries status of a knowledgeable person and the obligation to uphold this status. Banning a more knowledgeable user is not the way to win a discussion for a moderator. Banning on the sly, without notice nor indication in the status, is also a no-no on decent forums. What's going on here?

So guys, if you don't here from me anymore, you can appeal to MrHappy Good luck!

Edited by xEva, 19 April 2013 - 12:14 AM.