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Reducing acetylcholine

acetylcholine muscarinic depression

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#1 lammas2

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:52 PM


I'm pretty sure that excessive acetylcholine is causing my depression and anhedonia. I have tried eating small dose of nutmeg (which contains muscarinic receptor (M1/M4/M5) antagonist myristicin). It worked worders for my mood ja motivation, but unfortunately it had too many negative side effects. I know there are prescription muscarinic antagonists, but they are unavailable for me.

Is it possible to reduce acetylcholine? Any other (freely available) alternatives to nutmeg?

http://www.longecity...and-depression/
http://deepblue.lib.....pdf?sequence=1

#2 Mr. Pink

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 06:21 AM

benadryl antagonizes the receptor, making it so ach can't attach to it.

racetams reduce ach to some degree - by using it up faster - at least in theory.

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#3 lammas2

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 10:39 AM

Benadryl is also an antihistamine and probably too sedating.

#4 ricca91

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:16 AM

You have many options.

Some antiparkinsonian agents such as Trihexyphenydyl, benztropine, biperiden and procyclidine are muscarinic antagonists and are known for producing euphoria.

However, keep in mind that anticholinergics tend to impair memory and can cause unpleasant SE such as dry mouth.

#5 BioFreak

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 01:16 PM

Yap antihistamies should be freely available and somewhat effective. You could also reduce your choline intake. But keep in mind that this means memory problems, a slower mind, less empathy, tiredness and more stuff I can't remember right now. I guess I should increase acetylcholine. ;)

Keep in mind that depression and anhedonia can be started by a dopamine deficit as well. How would you feel pleasure in life, if you can not get a reward in your brain for anything you are doing(and would that not make you depressive in the long term?)? Remember, even though there is no trigger for reward if dopamine is low, you still can experience emotional pain. I would also look into that direction. Check out my posts about mucuna pruriens seed powder (stay away from extracts!!) to check if lack of dopamine is the cause.

#6 lammas2

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 01:34 PM

Keep in mind that depression and anhedonia can be started by a dopamine deficit as well. How would you feel pleasure in life, if you can not get a reward in your brain for anything you are doing(and would that not make you depressive in the long term?)? Remember, even though there is no trigger for reward if dopamine is low, you still can experience emotional pain. I would also look into that direction. Check out my posts about mucuna pruriens seed powder (stay away from extracts!!) to check if lack of dopamine is the cause.

I know for a fact that I have problems with low dopamine. The thing is, there is some evidence that excess acetylcholine inhibits dopamine and therefore causes the symptoms I have. CILTEP, caffeine, dopamine releasing agents - they all help increasing DA, but also increase NE, which is not good if you have problems with anxiety.

Antihistamines with anticholinergic properties are not an option, due to the extreme sedation.

Physostigmine, a cholinesterase inhibitor which increases central acetylcholine levels, has been
found in man to decrease manic symptoms, antagonize methylphenidate-induced behavioral
activation, and induce severe depression and psychomotor retardation in marijuana intoxicated
normals. In the current study, physostigmine was found to increase depressed mood in patients
with an affective component to their symptoms (manics, depressives, and schizoaffectives).
Schizophrenics without an affective component did not become depressed. After physostigmine
administration, all subject groups showed a significant increase in symptoms including lethargy,
slowed thoughts, withdrawal, apathy, decreased energy, decreased thoughts, motor retardation,
and feeling drained, indicating a state of psychomotor retardation; and all became less
cheerful, friendly, and talkative. The above information is compatible with the hypothesis that
acetylcholine may be involved in the etiology of affective disorders.



#7 BioFreak

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:13 PM

Why don't you increase dopamine and at the same time take something like noopept, which has anxiety lowering effects? Maybe your anxiety is also caused by low dopamine, so pushing it over a certain threshold could help, even if na gets raised too. This would not be possible with caffeine however. Also, noopept might lower acetylcholine - but thats just a hypothesis. For testing purposes, you could try l-dopa - but not for the long term, because of long term toxic effects. But once you have found that indeed dopamine is your main problem, or you have found out that it is not, you are a step further then now.

Just wondering, do you have a lot of empathy towards others, sacrifice yourself for others, etc? Thats a main sign for too much acetylcholine.

Sedation might happen with any acetylcholine lowering or blocking substance.

#8 Tom_

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 06:25 PM

If you want a really effective antidepressant and one of your main problems is anhdeonia then the only really evidenced based option is some form of SNRI. Vanlafaxine and TCAs fit that bill. Both are also very effective in anxiety despite their noradrenalgic action. The side effects can be fairly unpleasant but kept at low doses are normally manageable to non-existent.

Depressives who have marked features of anhedonia and low motivation have been shown time and time again to have dysfunction in the noradrenline system.

Edited by Tom_, 22 April 2013 - 06:28 PM.


#9 Dissolvedissolve

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:05 AM

Depressives who have marked features of anhedonia and low motivation have been shown time and time again to have dysfunction in the noradrenline system.


Could you provide a source for this? I'd lean much more toward the DA system being primarily responsible. Alterations in regions such as the VTA, which is a source of many dopaminergic neurons, have been detected.

#10 Furniture

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 07:24 PM

How much nutmeg did you take and in what form?



#11 Plasticperson

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 04:47 PM

Forskolin increases aChE

 



#12 StevesPetRat

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 06:42 PM

Haven't tried it personally for that purpose, but what about piracetam?

#13 jjnz

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 03:44 AM

Forskolin increases aChE

Does that make it a cholinesterase inhibitor, or the opposite. I'm asking because I'm supposed to avoid cholinesterase inhibitors rs1799807

#14 Jiminy Glick

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 04:38 AM

Why not address serotonin and dopamine instead of decreasing acetylcholine?



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#15 jjnz

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 05:44 AM

I believe my comt genes mean my serotonin and dopamine hang around for a long time, Ssnri had little effect on me (although very hard time stopping, caused permanent tinnitus and 6 months of headzaps)
Tyrosine and 5htp only have a mild effect on me.
Easily distracted with worsening memory.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: acetylcholine, muscarinic, depression

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