25 replies to this topic

[Atropy]

This area seems like the right place to post my regimen.
Firstly,thanks to everyone who shares their knowledge on this website.

Now,I really want to get my vitamin and mineral intake beyond the basic RDA,to where my body can perform optimally.I would like to do this without over supplementing.

So I'm going to order some supplements today to help me do that.My daily food intake is not too terrible,except for my high levels of sodium.
Below is my daily food intake,give or take,minus a few greens from my ethnic diet(some ethnic foods not included on Chrono).
I included the 2 Omega pills I usually take and some whey protein.
The Pic on the left includes 1 Multi Basics 3 multi pill.The pic on the right does not include a multi vitamin.



I'm not too sure if 9260% RDA of b12 is a good amount.

Goals:Form a good base for health.
Form a good base for nootropics.
Feel and perform the best way I can.
Increase bone density(calcification).
Rebuild/maintain Joints/cartiledge.

Current Regimen:


2 x 1g Omega 3 fish oil Carlson's Lab gems.
1/4 dose source naturals life force multi.
1 x Glucosomine pill Schiff Move Free.
Dlpa,Tryptophan,Imipramine.

My intended regimen will be:

2 x 1g Omega 3 fish oil Carlson's Lab gems.
1-2 x Multi-basic 3 pill/s.(Dosage?)
Vitamin D3 (Dosage?)
Vitamin K2 (form,type and dosage?)
Magnesium (dosage?)
Vitamin C(dosage,form,type?)
Something that will rebuild or maintain joints.(Suggestions,dosages?)
Dlpa,Tryptophan,Imipramine.

Not too sure I need to supplement the ones below,do I?:

Potassium(Seems like it would be a good idea to get at least the RDA).
Phosphorus(Seem to be deficient).
Zinc(Seem to be deficient,I hear good things about Zinc).
Omega 6 (surprised its so low,thought it might be abit higher).



Just a background on me, I'm 28,I train cardio and some strength training 5 days a week for 45 min.
I am currently on imipramine,dlpa and tryptophan for anxiety and depression.

I used to train with weights,without alternating body parts and I believe it could have helped wear my joints out.I take one glucosomine pill per day,but I suspect it has only helped with any joint pain during excercise,instead of maintaining and rebuilding my joints.

I don't eat much red meat,mostly pork or hotdogs.

Please edit or adjust my regimen.Thanks very much.

• 0

[theconomist]

I wrote you a nice long reply with everything but it got deleted by mistake.
Here's the summary of it:
-more veggies especially: kale, pumpkin, collard greens to fix your vitamin deficencies
-ditch the hotdogs once and for all
-fix the sodium, it's a big issue
-bone broth for joint health
-diet before supplements, try reaching all your RDAs with whole foods before toying with supps
-zinc could be interesting in your case, I'd go for 25mg every other day
-don't supplement omega 6
-just guessing but it seems like you don't eat much fish, unless you take epa and dha supps then increasing fish intake will help you a lot in terms of brain function

[Tom_]

I'm assuming you have tried SSRIs and SNRIs and maybe a few other antidepressants and like drugs? Are you in remission?

If not it may be worth considering an SSRI/SNRI and Busprione (at 10-20mg).

[theconomist]

I don't want to be ''that guy'' but I think fixing your diet and exercising regularly will help you much more than any drugs or nootropics. Ditch the placebo effect and start fixing the core of the problem.

[Tom_]

Nootropics and pharmacological interventions aren't placebo. That being said neither is diet and exercise. I recommend both.

[Atropy]

Thanks very much.

I actually do eat a little more greens than my cronometer reading shows,only problem is I dont know the names of the greens I have been eating,but have been eating them everyday.The only problem is I also have a sweet tooth,so I eat sweets and chocolate too.But I get lots of fibre,more than the average Joe.

I will definitely add more though,especially kale.I am more attentive to my diet than the regular man,thats an understatement.
I have never made bone broth before,it seems like too much effort,but I will try and get the ingredients.HOpefully it works out cheaper than supps.

Tom,I am still on 100mg of imipramine still.I have tried Zoloft before,with some hypermanic results.My aim is to slowly taper off my imipramine while increasing the dosages of the supps you suggested to me before, for brain health.

Side note:I am currently on 250mg of Dlpa 2 times per day.I also increased my dosage of tryptophan to 500mg,from 250mg.
The DLPA works great,not too sure about the results of the tryptophan though.It does help fall off to sleep.Dlpa was a great idea though,it helps me be more alert,and makes me feel pro active.
I havent tried Sulbutiamine as yet because its a little more expensive,but Ill get to it.

You also suggested Noopept before Tom,along with sulbutiamine,is this still a good option?

By the way,I train strength and cardio 5 times per week diligently,it helps with anxiety alot,but not as much as supplements.

I would love to add Zinc to my regimen.But Before I order it though I would like more supplement suggestions so I can order it all at once.I would like to add some more supplements(general health and brain health)to my regimen in the mean time.A Multi(Mutibasics?),magnesium,zinc,d3,k2 vitamin c?
D3 ,magnesium and k2 seem crazy popular ,so it must be doing something right.

[Tom_]

If you have only tried 1 SSRI why on earth are you on a TCA? Was this prescribed by a psychiatrist or doctor, or are you self treating?

You are taking a very low dose of both DLPA and Tryptophan (a very very low dose).

Up the DLPA to 500mg 2 times a day.
Tryptophan should be in the range of 1000mg. Both are pretty much the safest thing you can supplement with.

After a month of evaluating whats happening we can consider sulbutramine.

L-theanine is another option.

Can you give me more information on your sleep and sleeping cycle? Maybe melatonin could be helpful.

If you have only tried 1 SSRI why on earth are you on a TCA? Was this prescribed by a psychiatrist or doctor, or are you self treating?

You are taking a very low dose of both DLPA and Tryptophan (a very very low dose).

Up the DLPA to 500mg 2 times a day.
Tryptophan should be in the range of 1000mg. Both are pretty much the safest thing you can supplement with.

After a month of evaluating whats happening we can consider sulbutramine.

L-theanine is another option.

Can you give me more information on your sleep and sleeping cycle? Maybe melatonin could be helpful.

[Atropy]

I think I might have tried 2 ssris if I am not mistaken,I of them was Zoloft.I really want to milk the effect of these supplements,so I figure if Im feeling this great on a low dose,maby if i decrease the dosage of imipramine I will up the dosages of DLPA and Tryptophan.

I first want to experience the effects of Tryptophan.But I will drop my dosage of imipramine from 100mg to 75 mg tonight.

My sleep cycle is very sensitive.I have to turn off all stimuli(Pc) at 10 pm in order to sleep at 11:00pm or 11:30pm.I dont sleep more than 7 and a half hours.Unless I sleep after 12 pm,then I can sleep longer.

I dont know how good melatonin is for me,I dont want my body to stop producing melatonin naturally,but it has worked for me before.
I do need more sleep though.Been trading sleep to scour Longecity lol.

I will look up sleep hygiene as you have suggested before.

But for now I will get zinc and L-theanine.Ill up the DLPA and Tryptophan dosages too.

What about Noopept,should I wait a while before I try it?

[Tom_]

You don't need to try L-theanine yet.

I think you will find you practice a lot of the sleep hygiene already but its still worth a look.

I seriously disagree with the idea of reducing the imipramine until you have had at least six months of no symptoms. At the least wait until you have achieved remission.

Taking melatonin will not stop you naturally producing melatonin, taken at the right times it will actually increase melatonin production at night. Again I wouldn't recommend instigating it yet.

I know its very tempting but you need to give medication including supplements 3 months to work. If there is no effect at 6-8 weeks then you can discontinue it. Changes in doses should happen every 2 weeks. Obviously side effects are a different story.

Increase the DLPA and tryptophan, maintain the imipramine and do what ever with the zinc.

What are you doing about psycho-social treatments? Mindfulness, behavioral activation, Cognitive work?

[Atropy]

Allright,will do.

I was seeing a counselling psycholigist once per week for around 2 years.In that time I realised teh importance of being pro-active,and pushing the boundaries of my anxiety by making an effort socially to overcome social anxiety.It will now be easier to socialising and learn social behaviour.

BUt to answer your question,no.I am not in any kind of treatments nor do I practise those things.I don't even research it any more.I found that those things never helped me as much no matter how hard I tried.I needed things to improve my brain chemistry,now that I have some of it ,it should easier to intergrate into society,socialise,have proper functioning relationships etc.

[Tom_]

I have never come across someone who made a full recovery with just medication. Ever,

Daily mindfulness practice might be a place to start.

[Atropy]

Thanks Tom.Great info as usual.I am always conscious of trying to push the boundaries socially,mentally,in every way.I will certainly look it up and practise.THings seem to be going well with DLPA and Tryptophan so far.

Can anyone give me more info on my basic nutritional stack.k2,d3,magnesium,etc dosages?

Thanks!

Edited by Atropy, 24 April 2013 - 11:56 PM.

[Tom_]

Not a problem.

As a pointer the latest research is showing that its not the type of therapy or the fact that therapy doesn't work but its having a good working relationship with the therapist that makes you improve. It may be that you haven't found a suitable therapist.

Not a problem.

As a pointer the latest research is showing that its not the type of therapy or the fact that therapy doesn't work but its having a good working relationship with the therapist that makes you improve. It may be that you haven't found a suitable therapist.

[niner]

Can anyone give me more info on my basic nutritional stack.k2,d3,magnesium,etc dosages?

These are reasonable starting points for supplementation:

D3 2000 IU (less if you spend much time in the sun)
K2-MK7 45 mcg/day (I take a larger dose every other day)
Mg 200 mg/day. You are probably getting a lot from greens in your diet.

The one nutritional thing that really concerns me is all that sugar. I understand about the sweet tooth- I have the same problem. I use a lot of Splenda instead of sugar in things like coffee, cocoa, and oatmeal. When I eat out, I usually get either soda water or regular water. Try to concentrate you sugar consumption in relatively small amounts of items that really taste good. Try to avoid sugar-sweetened drinks, including "lattes", overly-sweet smoothies or fruit juice. Watch out for sneakily-named sugar, like agave, honey, or "organic cane juice".

[Atropy]

Can anyone give me more info on my basic nutritional stack.k2,d3,magnesium,etc dosages?

These are reasonable starting points for supplementation:

D3 2000 IU (less if you spend much time in the sun)
K2-MK7 45 mcg/day (I take a larger dose every other day)
Mg 200 mg/day. You are probably getting a lot from greens in your diet.

The one nutritional thing that really concerns me is all that sugar. I understand about the sweet tooth- I have the same problem. I use a lot of Splenda instead of sugar in things like coffee, cocoa, and oatmeal. When I eat out, I usually get either soda water or regular water. Try to concentrate you sugar consumption in relatively small amounts of items that really taste good. Try to avoid sugar-sweetened drinks, including "lattes", overly-sweet smoothies or fruit juice. Watch out for sneakily-named sugar, like agave, honey, or "organic cane juice".

.

Thanks Niner.

1) Would this supplementation be in addition to the 1 pill of Multi basics 3 or is this without the multi basics multi?I'm not too sure if 9260% RDA of b12 is a safe amount of b12.This is the amount of B12 that 1 pill of multibasics would provide.



The Pic on the left includes 1 Multi Basics 3 multi pill.The pic on the right does not include a multi vitamin.Please have a look.

[nameless]

Did a quick skimming of this thread, and a couple of comments:

You probably should change your diet, has been mentioned. When I first did the chronometer thing, I was surprised just how easy it was to reach RDAs in A and K1. Do you eat some vegetables daily? I mean decent vegetables, not a piece of lettuce or two. I'm also not quite sure how you managed to be so low in Vit C.

Multibasics at 1 pill daily is probably okay, although I sort of prefer no choline at all in any multi (CVD risk stuff). It'll be a baby-dose at 1/daily, but still ... I'd rather it not be in there. I suggest changing diet, and then simply supplementing a couple of things you may be low in separately.

As for forms and such...

For Vit D, get your serum levels tested and go from there. Most shoot for in-between 30-50, although I would lean conservative, 32-35.

K2 comes in Mk-4 and Mk-7 flavors. You can stick with Mk-7, or add a bit of both.

You can add a bit of zinc, but don't take too much, or your zinc-copper may get messed up. RDAish levels should be fine. Zinc picolinate or Zinc Citrate should be good. I know several forms of Zinc picolinate are in tablet form, so you could always break those in half ... or take it EOD.

It'd be a pain to supplement some things like potassium, as most potassium supplements are like 2% RDA. Better to get it from food.

I would suggest Vit C from diet over a supplement, but if you want a bit extra, I think most forms at 250mg-500mg daily would be okay. Plain ascorbic may be a bit rough on the stomach. I take Ester C, primarily for allergy reasons... or the hope it may help a tiny bit with allergies.

Edited by nameless, 26 April 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[Atropy]

Thanks nameless,I got your advice after I bought my supplements already.
I got Thornes k2 MK4/d3 droplets and the multi mentioned before.I have added some kale to my diet and will add more veggies.

Tom,regarding. your quedtion about psychiatrist.He is basically a pill pusher.No real analysis He gave me imipramine because I was on it and requested it.Previous Psychiatrist wanted me to stop imipramine colld turkey And start a low dose of ssris so I went to my current pych.

[Tom_]

Your first psychiatrist had the right idea.

However I think you are now past the SSRI stage and you have had a treatment response to the TCA which indicates an SNRI might work for you. Venlafaxine at medium to medium high doses could work, likely with less side effects. Consider the change but its not necessary by any means. I still wouldn't lower the dosage on the impr.

I think however one of the best things you can do for yourself now is psychotherapy. Medication have there place, behavioral changes do but psychotherapy can play the major role in some disorders/stages of the disorder. There is also some evidence flying around that partial remissions from medication are best treated with adjunct psychotherapy.

I'd recommend if you can afford it face to face psychotherapy. Cognitive behavioral therapy would be the place to start, since I don't know you well enough and the types of problems and the way you think I can't make an informed choice as to whats likely to suit you best. CBT is a fairly 1 size fits all and very well evidenced. If you work at it, you will make gains. 12-16 weeks is the place to start.

Other therapies that I might recommend:

Systemic, CAT (cognitive analytic), 1 year plus psychodynamic interventions.

Practicing mindfulness daily is very important.

You need to instigate the behavioral changes as well. Sleep hygiene, behavioral activation etc..

You said you were interested in changing your brain chemistry. Guess what changes your brain as much as meds? CBT! :D

[Atropy]

I see.I think I heard that the body has to be weaned off imipramine then star ssri's.

I feel physically that the side effects of imipramine is worse than what it does good in my case.I train cardio alot and I feel like Im damaging my heart.I get palpitations and sometimes pains where myheart is when I start excercising.It subsides when I start training.I read somewhere that it is toxicity.

Yester day I lowered the dosage to 75mg from 100mg.

Are there any other nootropics that I could use that increase serotonin?Or maby increase the dossge of Tryptophan?

I think maby I will ask my psych to let me try an SNRI'.

I respond immediately to medications.When I started with imipramine I experienced its effects immediately.Even at 25mg of imi.I doubt it was placebo cause it happened with Zoloft too.Zoloft didnt have the sedative effect of imiptamine.
Increasing the dosage of imipramine by even 25mg is immediately noticeable to my mind,mood,anxiety etc.

It allowed me to have a clearer mind.But hypomania happened too.

So I guess I will research abit about snri and maby request i.The other option is to go natural.Tryptophan.But lll read up on cbt abit.

Dlpa has helped t with my social alertness and interaction.

[Atropy]

Also,my sex drive has noticeably decreased,which I'm ok with .I thought that it might be my 2 x omega 3 pills per day but I don't think that would cause it.

[Tom_]

heart palpitations and chest pains are normal when exercising. The chances are you are suffering hypercondria related to your depression.

TCAs can cause conduction abnormalities, now you have mentioned it you have to mention it to a doctor at doses of 100mg its almost unheard of.

[nupi]

However I think you are now past the SSRI stage and you have had a treatment response to the TCA which indicates an SNRI might work for you. Venlafaxine at medium to medium high doses could work, likely with less side effects.

What is it with you and your fixation on Venlafaxine out of all the ADs? It's likely one of the most effective ones out there, but also has one of the worst side-effect profiles of all the SN/SSRIs. Personally I believe it should be 2nd line, if anything.

Edited by nupi, 28 April 2013 - 06:23 PM.

[Tom_]

It does not have one of the worst side effects! :L

And lets be serious, after SSRI's and the odd novel antidepressant (agomelatine, buspirone, mirtazapine (maybe) etc...) venlafaxine has the next best side effect profile.

At the very least the side effect profile is better than the TCA's with no anticholinergic effects.

[nupi]

After two SSRIs, two SNRIs and Bupropion, I maintain that Venlafaxine had the worst side effects of them all (I explicitely did not include TCA in that list). Duloxetine was kind of close but at least I did not gain 10kg in a couple of weeks...
In any case,

And lets be serious, after SSRI's and the odd novel antidepressant (agomelatine, buspirone, mirtazapine (maybe) etc...) venlafaxine has the next best side effect profile.

Implies that there are plenty of options before going to Venlafaxine (I am kind of undecided on where to put Bupropion in all of this, BTW)...

Edited by nupi, 29 April 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[Tom_]

Exactly. We are in perfect agreement. He's going second line now. Well strictly speaking he is on 3th line when he should have trialed 2nd. However its the 'nicest' antidepressent vs treatment response out there, being comparable to the TCA's in effectiveness and more so where there is significant anhendonia, psychomotor disturbance and early morning awakenings.

Also venlafaxines side effect profile at higher dosages tends to change from weight gain and sedation to, weight loss and activation - this is as the pharmacological profile begins to increase noradrenaline reuptake and finally dopamine reuptake.

[Atropy]

Is it necessary to taper off from imipramine in order to try a snri or does one stop cold turkey?

You reccomended staying on imipramine.
I dosed down to 75mg from 100mg and I notice a lower mood.However,the palpitations and fleeting chest pains have subsided.I cant decide whats more important,physical or mental health.

I think I have a combination of Hypochondria and just being very sensitive and perceptive to whats happening in my mind or body.

I also noticed irritability that increased since I increased my dosage of DLPA to 500mg x 2.Tryptophan 110mg at night..It seems that things that annoy me are brought to the surface and a spotlight is shone on it.

It's mostly directed towards people.However I don't let it show most of the time.I think my irritability is justified sometimes.It seems like Im one step closer to speaking my mind on whatever.I don't like confrontation and always avoid it,but now my irritability is wanting me to speak out my mind on more things than normal.

I don't mind these side effects,including the lowered sex drive.I just want to make sure that its still safe to continue taking DLPA.

I also want to try L-theanine or Noopept soon.