4019 replies to this topic

[lostfalco]

A few people have ordered an affordable PQQ/CoQ10 combo from ebay. Still waiting to hear back from them.

Hi, I ordered PQQ from eBay and have now trialed it for 2 weeks 3 times a week. For me it seems to have similar effects as the PQQ from LEF - notably insomnia if taken before bed and it has given me some extra clarity of thought as did LEF PQQ. So this offering may be legit.

I have too noticed improved clarity of thought from using pqq/coq10 from ebay and 500mg artichoke from Jarrow so the source is legit. Just waiting on word on the laser so I can complete TULIP. :-D

Very cool, MH. Thanks for reporting back! So you and Mait have both had good experiences with it. I asked Mait this as well, but just to confirm...you bought this one, right? http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c350fcc64

[MasterHerb]

A few people have ordered an affordable PQQ/CoQ10 combo from ebay. Still waiting to hear back from them.

Hi, I ordered PQQ from eBay and have now trialed it for 2 weeks 3 times a week. For me it seems to have similar effects as the PQQ from LEF - notably insomnia if taken before bed and it has given me some extra clarity of thought as did LEF PQQ. So this offering may be legit.

Thanks Mait! That's great news. Just to confirm...you ordered this product from ebay, right? http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c350fcc64

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 Capsule
Servings per Container: 100 Capsules

Amount per Serving
Vitamin E (d-alpha tocopherol) 5 IU
Coenzyme Q10 (BioQ10SATM) 200 mg
PQQ (BioPQQTM) Pyrroloquinoline quinone disodium salt 20 mg
Providing Pyrroloquinoline quinone 17.65 mg

Yup that is what I ordered!

[lostfalco]

A few people have ordered an affordable PQQ/CoQ10 combo from ebay. Still waiting to hear back from them.

Hi, I ordered PQQ from eBay and have now trialed it for 2 weeks 3 times a week. For me it seems to have similar effects as the PQQ from LEF - notably insomnia if taken before bed and it has given me some extra clarity of thought as did LEF PQQ. So this offering may be legit.

Thanks Mait! That's great news. Just to confirm...you ordered this product from ebay, right? http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c350fcc64

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 Capsule
Servings per Container: 100 Capsules

Amount per Serving
Vitamin E (d-alpha tocopherol) 5 IU
Coenzyme Q10 (BioQ10SATM) 200 mg
PQQ (BioPQQTM) Pyrroloquinoline quinone disodium salt 20 mg
Providing Pyrroloquinoline quinone 17.65 mg

Yup that is what I ordered!

Wow, $23 for both. Thanks again. I'm gonna hop on ebay right now and order a bit for a little trial run.

Edited by lostfalco, 04 August 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[lostfalco]

A few people have ordered an affordable PQQ/CoQ10 combo from ebay. Still waiting to hear back from them.

Hi, I ordered PQQ from eBay and have now trialed it for 2 weeks 3 times a week. For me it seems to have similar effects as the PQQ from LEF - notably insomnia if taken before bed and it has given me some extra clarity of thought as did LEF PQQ. So this offering may be legit.

I have too noticed improved clarity of thought from using pqq/coq10 from ebay and 500mg artichoke from Jarrow so the source is legit. Just waiting on word on the laser so I can complete TULIP. :-D

Laser update: I have rented a laser power meter and it should be arriving sometime this week or possibly the following week. I want to get this tested as soon as possible so that all of you guys can try the whole TULIP protocol. It's seriously been amazing for me over the past month+. I would encourage everybody to read up on mitochondrial enhancement....I think this is an absolutely life-changing new direction for brain optimization.

btw...Does anyone know the proper protocol for posting full pdf's? I really want everyone to read the Gonzalez-Lima article but I don't want to get banned. Suggestions?

Edited by lostfalco, 04 August 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[mait]

A few people have ordered an affordable PQQ/CoQ10 combo from ebay. Still waiting to hear back from them.

Hi, I ordered PQQ from eBay and have now trialed it for 2 weeks 3 times a week. For me it seems to have similar effects as the PQQ from LEF - notably insomnia if taken before bed and it has given me some extra clarity of thought as did LEF PQQ. So this offering may be legit.

Thanks Mait! That's great news. Just to confirm...you ordered this product from ebay, right? http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c350fcc64

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 Capsule
Servings per Container: 100 Capsules

Amount per Serving
Vitamin E (d-alpha tocopherol) 5 IU
Coenzyme Q10 (BioQ10SATM) 200 mg
PQQ (BioPQQTM) Pyrroloquinoline quinone disodium salt 20 mg
Providing Pyrroloquinoline quinone 17.65 mg

Yes! This is exactly the product I ordered - red capsules with red powder inside. As said I can make the comparison only on the grounds of subjective effects noticed - I haven't made laboratory analysis on the product I received.

Edited by mait, 04 August 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[chris106]

Here's a quote from the LEF advertisement. http://www.lef.org/V...inol-CoQ10.html

Thanks for the info! Guess I'll give it a try.

[lostfalco]

Weird. Looks like "someone" posted the entire Gonzalez-Lima article online and it's available for reading online or for pdf download.

Check it out here.
Read Online: http://pdfcast.org/pdf/suck-it-trebek
PDF: http://pdfcast.org/d...k-it-trebek.pdf

Edited by lostfalco, 04 August 2013 - 09:16 PM.

[chris106]

Document Description

A hilarious treatise on the merits of cutting off your statements in mid-sent...

Haha, oh lostfalco

[lostfalco]

Hey guys, I saw this utterly fascinating advertisement today and thought I would pass it along. Again, I want to emphasize that it is advertisement. Regardless, I've got to look into this! PQQ + CoQ10 + Shilajit http://www.lef.org/m...al-Aging_02.htm

Quote:
"Supplemental coenzyme Q10 blocks mitochondrial aging, while PQQ triggers the creation of new mitochondria. In addition, shilajit works synergistically with CoQ10, replenishing its electrons and prolonging its antioxidative effectiveness.

Taken together, CoQ10 and PQQ and shilajit offer a potent program to inhibit—and reverse—the intensely destructive cycle that is believed to be a root source of aging!"

[lostfalco]

Document Description

A hilarious treatise on the merits of cutting off your statements in mid-sent...

Haha, oh lostfalco :)

I have no idea who the moron was that posted that article. ;)

A few people have ordered an affordable PQQ/CoQ10 combo from ebay. Still waiting to hear back from them.

Hi, I ordered PQQ from eBay and have now trialed it for 2 weeks 3 times a week. For me it seems to have similar effects as the PQQ from LEF - notably insomnia if taken before bed and it has given me some extra clarity of thought as did LEF PQQ. So this offering may be legit.

Thanks Mait! That's great news. Just to confirm...you ordered this product from ebay, right? http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c350fcc64

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 Capsule
Servings per Container: 100 Capsules

Amount per Serving
Vitamin E (d-alpha tocopherol) 5 IU
Coenzyme Q10 (BioQ10SATM) 200 mg
PQQ (BioPQQTM) Pyrroloquinoline quinone disodium salt 20 mg
Providing Pyrroloquinoline quinone 17.65 mg

Yes! This is exactly the product I ordered - red capsules with red powder inside. As said I can make the comparison only on the grounds of subjective effects noticed - I haven't made laboratory analysis on the product I received.

Awesome, man! Thanks for the report. Mine is on the way.

[mait]

Hey guys, I saw this utterly fascinating advertisement today and thought I would pass it along. Again, I want to emphasize that it is advertisement. Regardless, I've got to look into this! PQQ + CoQ10 + Shilajit http://www.lef.org/m...al-Aging_02.htm

Quote:
"Supplemental coenzyme Q10 blocks mitochondrial aging, while PQQ triggers the creation of new mitochondria. In addition, shilajit works synergistically with CoQ10, replenishing its electrons and prolonging its antioxidative effectiveness.

Taken together, CoQ10 and PQQ and shilajit offer a potent program to inhibit—and reverse—the intensely destructive cycle that is believed to be a root source of aging!"

If true then this is amazing because I have used CoQ10 and shilajit (mumjo) for over 4 years and just recently added PQQ to my regime. I can attest that shilajit has improved my exercise tolerance and it has had quite a noticeable effect on clarity of thought. At my home country we have cheap mumjo/shilajit for sale over the counter from Altai mountains in Russia.

I am bit scared to order Himalayan shilajit from India because it has been shown that those natural supplements often contain high level of lead: http://www.medicalne...eases/27621.php

[h2o]

I know the human PQQ and CoQ10 study was mentioned in the past, but here's some more information that I didn't know which I find pretty surprising:

There are a number of animal trials that have shown exciting effects on nerve regeneration and growth (Zhang et al 2011). A study conducted in Japan in elderly patients found that there was an improvement in memory (after 12 weeks) when PQQ and Coenzyme Q10 were supplemented together. They also found a 40x higher level of BDNF and that the antioxidant effect of PQQ was 30 times more effective than Vitamins C or E (Nakano et al. 2007).

-- http://drnibber.com/...y-and-regrowth/

This may explain some of the potent effects of TULIP :-) Personally, I am going to start taking PQQ and CoQ10 starting tomorrow and I may try the laser sometime in the future. But if I do try the laser it will be at least 3 months from now.

I also found out that there is a relationship between low CoQ10 levels and treatment resistant depression and chronic fatigue syndrome so I think the combo may be very beneficial for me: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20010493

[xks201]

Really anxious to see if a cheaper laser than the 600$ vetrolaser will work...

[lostfalco]

Really anxious to see if a cheaper laser than the 600$ vetrolaser will work...

Well you're in luck. ;) The tracking number for my laser meter says it should be here Saturday. It might take a little trial and error for me to figure out how to use it, but hopefully by the end of the weekend or Monday I should have a little feedback for you.

[rikelme]

Ok, guys with more experience with laser dosing, I could use your help. I'm trying to figure out how long should I point my 200mw 808nm ebay laser to my forehead to achieve the desired radiant exposure of 1 J/cm² which has been shown to be most beneficial [1].

Here is my calculation:

forehead area = 25 cm²
radiant exposure @ brain = 1 J/cm² [1]
total radiant energy delivered to brain = 1 J/cm² x 25 cm² = 25 J
% that reaches the brain = 3.7% = 0.037 [1]
total energy @ skin level needed = 25 J / 0.037 = 675 J
laser power = 200 mW = 0.2 W
time = 675 J / 0.2 W = 3375 s = 56 minutes ?!

This seems to be waaay to long compared to 2x4 minutes mentioned in the [1]. What did I do wrong here?

Thanks!

[1] Neurological and psychological applications of transcranial lasers and LEDs; Author: Julio C. Rojas F. Gonzalez-Lima

Edited by rikelme, 08 August 2013 - 04:25 AM.

[rikelme]

forehead area = 25 cm²
radiant exposure @ brain = 1 J/cm² [1]
total radiant energy delivered to brain = 1 J/cm² x 25 cm² = 25 J
% that reaches the brain = 3.7% = 0.037 [2]
total energy @ skin level needed = 25 J / 0.037 = 675 J
laser power = 200 mW = 0.2 W
time = 675 J / 0.2 W = 3375 s = 56 minutes ?!

Correction:
According to [1] the % of the light that reaches the brain is 2% and according to the [2] in which they used LEDs is 3.7%. So if 2% is used instead of 3.7% in the above calculation it takes even longer to achieve 1J/cm² radiant exposure over the forehead (25cm² area):

forehead area = 25 cm²
radiant exposure @ brain = 1 J/cm² [1]
total radiant energy delivered to brain = 1 J/cm² x 25 cm² = 25 J
% that reaches the brain = 2% = 0.02 [1]
total energy @ skin level needed = 25 J / 0.02 = 1250 J
laser power = 200 mW = 0.2 W
time = 1250 J / 0.2 W = 6250 s = 1 hour 44 minutes

WTF ?!

[1] Neurological and psychological applications of transcranial lasers and LEDs; Author: Julio C. Rojas F. Gonzalez-Lima
[2] Psychological benefits 2 and 4 weeks after a single treatment with near infrared light to the forehead: a pilot study of 10 patients with major depression and anxiety

Edited by rikelme, 08 August 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[lostfalco]

Hey guys, I saw this utterly fascinating advertisement today and thought I would pass it along. Again, I want to emphasize that it is advertisement. Regardless, I've got to look into this! PQQ + CoQ10 + Shilajit http://www.lef.org/m...al-Aging_02.htm

Quote:
"Supplemental coenzyme Q10 blocks mitochondrial aging, while PQQ triggers the creation of new mitochondria. In addition, shilajit works synergistically with CoQ10, replenishing its electrons and prolonging its antioxidative effectiveness.

Taken together, CoQ10 and PQQ and shilajit offer a potent program to inhibit—and reverse—the intensely destructive cycle that is believed to be a root source of aging!"

If true then this is amazing because I have used CoQ10 and shilajit (mumjo) for over 4 years and just recently added PQQ to my regime. I can attest that shilajit has improved my exercise tolerance and it has had quite a noticeable effect on clarity of thought. At my home country we have cheap mumjo/shilajit for sale over the counter from Altai mountains in Russia.

I am bit scared to order Himalayan shilajit from India because it has been shown that those natural supplements often contain high level of lead: http://www.medicalne...eases/27621.php

That's awesome man. Do you have a specific brand of shilajit that you would recommend?

[mait]

Hey guys, I saw this utterly fascinating advertisement today and thought I would pass it along. Again, I want to emphasize that it is advertisement. Regardless, I've got to look into this! PQQ + CoQ10 + Shilajit http://www.lef.org/m...al-Aging_02.htm

Quote:
"Supplemental coenzyme Q10 blocks mitochondrial aging, while PQQ triggers the creation of new mitochondria. In addition, shilajit works synergistically with CoQ10, replenishing its electrons and prolonging its antioxidative effectiveness.

Taken together, CoQ10 and PQQ and shilajit offer a potent program to inhibit—and reverse—the intensely destructive cycle that is believed to be a root source of aging!"

If true then this is amazing because I have used CoQ10 and shilajit (mumjo) for over 4 years and just recently added PQQ to my regime. I can attest that shilajit has improved my exercise tolerance and it has had quite a noticeable effect on clarity of thought. At my home country we have cheap mumjo/shilajit for sale over the counter from Altai mountains in Russia.

I am bit scared to order Himalayan shilajit from India because it has been shown that those natural supplements often contain high level of lead: http://www.medicalne...eases/27621.php

That's awesome man. Do you have a specific brand of shilajit that you would recommend?

This is what I use: http://www.altaifarm...rmy/1/mumie0,2/
Available OTC in pharmacies in my country for around 3USD per 30 tablets.

[lourdaud]

LostFalco: Any particular reason you're lasering pre-bed?

[8bitmore]

[...]
Here is my calculation:

forehead area = 25 cm²
radiant exposure @ brain = 1 J/cm² [1]
total radiant energy delivered to brain = 1 J/cm² x 25 cm² = 25 J
% that reaches the brain = 3.7% = 0.037 [1]
total energy @ skin level needed = 25 J / 0.037 = 675 J
laser power = 200 mW = 0.2 W
time = 675 J / 0.2 W = 3375 s = 56 minutes ?!

This seems to be waaay to long compared to 2x4 minutes mentioned in the [1]. What did I do wrong here?

Thanks!

[1] Neurological and psychological applications of transcranial lasers and LEDs; Author: Julio C. Rojas F. Gonzalez-Lima

Dude, your forehead is SO BIG (never dreamt I would say this to another guy, but there we go; the internet) - no seriously though, that estimation alone must be enough to throw your calculations off by a large margin, 25 cm2 is a huge rectangle, try drawing/measuring it out yourself. Also, thanks for sharing your calculations here, I might well end up using them (or a derivative of them) in the future.

[Joe Cohen]

LF,
I'm not convinced of the safety, but my curiosity seems like it's going to take over. When you report back on the ebay laser, I will give it a go and test it in isolation. In previous years I used to test a bunch of things at once, but I realized that it's too difficult to find out what works this way. Now I test everything in isolation. It's annoying because I hold back from what I know works for me, but it's the only way to discover how things work accurately...

[rikelme]

Dude, your forehead is SO BIG (never dreamt I would say this to another guy, but there we go; the internet) - no seriously though, that estimation alone must be enough to throw your calculations off by a large margin, 25 cm2 is a huge rectangle, try drawing/measuring it out yourself. Also, thanks for sharing your calculations here, I might well end up using them (or a derivative of them) in the future.

25 cm² is actually on the conservative side ! 40cm² is closer to the area of the whole forehead:
4cm height x 10cm width = 40cm²

[rikelme]

Guys, I found even cheaper source of IR laser and LEDs - aliexpres.com ( a webshop of alibaba.com).
I've ordered 50 850nm 300mw LEDs to start building my own helmet. I may add some laser diodes too. Also, I've ordered a $30 830nm 300mW laser module which I'll use in addition to my ebay 808nm 200mW module.

[mait]

Hello. As I noted before I ordered 200mW 808nm laser module from eBay and actually received laser with markings on it saying power output 350mw and 630-660nm. The laser is visible on when pointed on closer objects and has cross shape instead of pointer one. Either the markings are false or I received wrong item – I do not know. Nevertheless I have been using this laser module 2-3 times a week 3 minutes – per brain region - on following brain areas: frontal lobes, dorsolateral PFC and occipital lobes.
The immediately effect after removing the protective glasses I notice the most is how much clearer my vision is on right visual field compared to left (brain areas entrained are the ones on left hemisphere). And this effect has persisted time after time for a month and a half now. This is somewhat spooky for me because no racetam has given me this often reported effect and now LLLT seems to work consistently in this regard.

Edited by mait, 08 August 2013 - 08:47 PM.

[rikelme]

Correction:
According to [1] the % of the light that reaches the brain is 2% and according to the [2] in which they used LEDs is 3.7%. So if 2% is used instead of 3.7% in the above calculation it takes even longer to achieve 1J/cm² radiant exposure over the forehead (25cm² area):

forehead area = 25 cm²
radiant exposure @ brain = 1 J/cm² [1]
total radiant energy delivered to brain = 1 J/cm² x 25 cm² = 25 J
% that reaches the brain = 2% = 0.02 [1]
total energy @ skin level needed = 25 J / 0.02 = 1250 J
laser power = 200 mW = 0.2 W
time = 1250 J / 0.2 W = 6250 s = 1 hour 44 minutes

WTF ?!

[1] Neurological and psychological applications of transcranial lasers and LEDs; Author: Julio C. Rojas F. Gonzalez-Lima
[2] Psychological benefits 2 and 4 weeks after a single treatment with near infrared light to the forehead: a pilot study of 10 patients with major depression and anxiety

Nothing is wrong with my calculation above. Going through the [1] once again I conclude that it is correct. The difference comes from numbers of light sources - I use only one If I would use an array of LEDs of laser diodes, the time needed to deliver 25J to the brain would be shorter.

Lostfalco, if I remember correctly, you said that you laser yourself for about 10 minutes total? How big area are you lasering?

In contrast, LLLT induced a dose-dependent decrease in oxygen concentration of approximately 5±1% after LLLT 1 J/cm2 and 15.8±2% after LLLT 5 J/cm2

[1] page 13

The above is found in rats. Earlier in [1] they said the most effective dose (radiant energy) is 1/cm2 for humans, so lets stick with that one.

To achieve 1J/cm2 with your 200mw vetrolaser in 10 minutes you would have to limit the lasered area to:

(0.2W x 600 s x 0.02) / 1J/cm2 = 2.4 cm2

which is the same area as a US dime (with diameter of 17.91mm). The vetrolaser covers bigger area than that, correct? Thus, to achieve the desired radiant energy you would have to laser longer, and that's even without moving your laser around.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Just found your post on the previous page:

Vetrolaser right before bed, multiple 10-20 EEG spots http://en.wikipedia....ki/10-20_system , 2-4 minutes per spot at MOST

Edited by rikelme, 09 August 2013 - 05:29 AM.

[rikelme]

I just stumbled upon this one: Intranasal Low Level Laser Therapy
Seems to be popular in China. They use <5mW red 650nm lasers to treat various health conditions and for acupuncture, among other things.

[rikelme]

Another, quite extensive paper:
Cheng-Yi Liu, Ping Zhu - Laser Function Medicine and Its Applications

[lostfalco]

Alright, so the laser meter arrived today. I'll be testing tonight and tomorrow and I'll get back to you guys as soon as I can. Hopefully, we can find an affordable option so that pretty much everyone who wants to try out lllt will be able to. Fingers crossed.

[xks201]

Awesome!!!

[alpal]

Been silently following this thread for a while. Just began TULIP today with 1 minute on f3 and f4 using the vetrolaser. It has some beneficial effects for me and also some side effects so far.

Better word recall and verbosity are positive.

Slight euphoria with associated fatigue negative.

I wanted to mention if stimulating the temples one might want to recalculate the light diffusion because of the varied skull thickness.