4019 replies to this topic

[lostfalco]

Okay, so the message I'm hearing is that you dont breathe the pure oxygen for long periods of time. For instance I shouldn't put on an oxygen mask and breathe it in for an entire six hour study session. Instead you only breathe it in for a few minutes at a time.

How long does it last before you need to redose? Is the effect immediate or does it take some time? Do you build up a tolerance?

Piracetam works wonders for me except for the fact that it keeps me up at night. Is concentrated oxygen anything like piracetam?

That's right on, EC. In fact, concentrated oxygen breathed for over 10 minutes straight has been shown to be non-beneficial. Stough/Scholey discuss this in their book and in their studies. They think the optimal dose ranges from about 30 seconds to 3 minutes. "The dose-response for oxygen administration on performance appears to follow the Yerkes-Dodson inverted-U shape in a similar fashion to glucose facilitation with shorter doses of 30s to 3min appearing to be most beneficial while continuous oxygen breathing for longer than 10min leading to decline in performance (p. 93)." http://www.amazon.co...choley advances

Effects last 4-5 minutes (Scholey, p. 93), immediate effects, no tolerance

Similar to piracetam? Good question. I'll have to think about that one.

Just one last thing...In my experience, oxygen is THE most immediate nootropic. It's pretty much instant. That was one of the reasons I really wanted to try it...along with the fact that oxygen is so fundamental to our existence and we ingest it constantly. You can take bacopa for months if you want to (I have), but I like to try things that will have noticeable effects in a very short period of time. That way, I can have a pretty good idea if it's gonna work for me after a few days (or minutes). When you stretch the time period out to days and weeks and months, there are so many factors that can intervene along the way.

Trying 'instant noots' is just a little heuristic that I've found helpful in my self-experiments. Of course, once you've tried all of those then move on to longer term noots. Nothing dogmatic here...except finding what safely enhances your life. =)

[Skp30]

Hey Lostfalco,

You mentioned that the Ebay laser heats up after several minutes. I purchased a vetrolaser almost a month ago and noted that it does get warm also after some time. I don't feel any heat/warmth actually coming out of the laser but the laser itself is warm to the touch after some time. When you were using the vetrolaser, did you just laser a couple spots or so and then take a break from it for however long it took for the laser to cool down before proceeding? My protocol in the last 1.5 week has been to laser 8-10 spots total, alternating 4-5 spots every other day and taking a day or 2 off each week.

I'm not taking any other brain enhancing supplements at the moment but I have definitely noticed increased focus from the laser itself. Before the laser, whenever I had to concentrate on something or just surf the net, I'd have these annoying somewhat obsessive thoughts that would just take over. Since lasering, these thoughts have begun to disappear, and I feel I am more in the moment, more in the zone. I can't wait to see the results in 3 months! I'll begin adding the CoQ10/PQQ TULIP protocol in a few weeks along w/a few other supplements.

Hey Skp, that's very cool that the Vetro has been working for you! It's really interesting how the laser not only gives us more endurance, but more control. I've def noticed that too. My guess is that the added energy gives us a little extra "free won't"...the flip side of 'free will'. The primal parts of our brain are constantly sending us a stream of thoughts and the more recent parts decide yes or no, act or don't act, listen or don't listen. Our fundamental urges never really go away, but we now have more power over them. It's kinda exciting for a nerd like me. =)

Regarding the ebay laser...it gets WAY hotter than the Vetro. After a few minutes, it's too hot to even put it on your skin. I've followed a very similar protocol to yours with the Vetro and had zero problems. The modest amount of heat that it puts out shouldn't be an issue. Also, I'm definitely of the opinion that lasering multiple spots (just like you are doing) is the way to go. I think your current protocol sounds excellent.

Great explanation regarding the primal brain and thanks again for bringing the Vetro to my attention! This has certainly helped w/my self-diagnosed semi-ADHD and also my dream recall has been the best in years. Dreams have been vivid and much of the time I can remember what I'd dreamt about even several hours after waking up so memory recall has certainly been enhanced. Normally, if I remember a dream, I can recall it once I wake up but then forget all about it. Wish I'd known about LLLT when I was in college many years ago. I might go back

That's a relief that the Vetro shouldn't cause any heating issues. Glad I bought the Vetro and having the convenience of just lasering in one go for 10-15 min each time. After 15 min, the last area of skin to be lasered is still cool to the touch. Knowing that it is medical grade gives me peace of mind.

[lostfalco]

Holy crap that was an awesome post! One of the main reasons that I posted the info on oxygen was to hopefully find a diver or someone with way more experience than I have to help me be more intelligent about my oxygen usage. I really appreciate your insights.

So, I'm using 70% oxygen at 3L/min in only one nostril. Incredibly, it's enough to get my blood oxygenation level up from it's usual 98% to 99%+ (that's as high as my oximeter goes). I only keep it elevated for around 3 minutes before I take the cannula out and go back to breathing the refreshing Los Angeles soot.

If you wouldn't mind...would you please calculate how safe this is for the viewers at home? =)

Also, thanks for the oxygen options. I know that we can do way better than my ebay concentrator. What would you recommend for longer term options? Those bottles seem like they would run out very quickly (I've never tried them though).

I'm glad that I can contribute to your exceptional thread! To be able to answer your question I would have to be an expert in the human physiology and oxygen uptake, which I'm not
One thing that I remember (and now I just found a reference to the claim) is that you should inhale at least some CO₂ with your oxygen (which you do as you're using 70% oxygen), as it has been shown that breathing 100% pure oxygen can cause hypothalamus hyperactivity. Sorry I couldn't help more

by 100% pure oxygen, would that include hyperbaric oxygen therapy?

my naturopath is recommending I do hyperbaric oxygen therapy for potential brain damage caused by a car accident, severe stress, and PTSD. Apparently is has done wonders for soldiers returning home from combat as well as kids with autism.

Hey Crusader, I'm very sorry to hear about the damage you've suffered. All of the things you mentioned are notoriously tricky to solve and there are no one-size-fits-all answers. However, have you thought about lllt? I am nothing at all like a doctor, but It has shown extremely promising effects in treating people with TBI and depression. Pubmed the Naeser pilot study for two examples of TBI treated with lllt and check out the Gonzalez-Lima/Barrett study for info on lllt and depression. I sincerely hope you find the answers you're looking for. I can provide links if you would like them.

Btw, I have many more studies I can show you or your naturopath if you are interested in looking into photobiomodulation. Just let me know. I wish you the best.

Excessive Disclaimer: me = not-a-doctor

[lostfalco]

So, I want to share a few quick little research thoughts with guys and I would love it if you looked into some of these things with me and shared your findings. WE are smarter than me. I'm pursuing many other avenues, but 3 stand out particularly right now: 1. mixed wavelengths, 2. helmet design, 3. supplements.

Mixed Wavelengths
Gonzalez-Lima says this:

Wavelength is a major LLLT parameter as it greatly determines the molecular target
of light [17-19]. Cytochrome oxidase shows four major light absorption peaks within the red-to-
near-infrared band. These are determined by CuA and CuB, two of the four metal centers within
the enzyme. These peaks of absorption are 620 nm (CuA reduced), 680 nm (CuB oxidized), 760
nm (CuB reduced) and 825 nm (CuA oxidized). In vitro, these absorption peaks correspond to
peaks in DNA synthesis and cell attachment [17].

Questions: If 4 different targets/peaks, then are 4 simultaneous wavelengths corresponding to each peak better than only one or two or three?
What are the other two 'metal centers' besides CuA and CuB? (I should just google/wiki this...but I'm a little busy)
Do CuA oxidized, CuA reduced, CuB oxidized, and CuB reduced constitute 4 targets or only 2? (CuA and CuB being the two) It kinda sounds like four.
Is there any reason to focus on 'reduced' targets, 'oxidized' targets, or both?

If anyone knows the answers to these I wouldn't mind if you shared. =)

Helmet Design
You know we're all thinking it...how can I safely and optimally stimulate my brain in the least possible amount of time? Seems like some sort of helmet or flexible beanie is the answer. There are a number of laser hair systems out there that use helmets already. There are also infrared tents and full body infrared chambers you can lay in to rejuvinate your entire body plus many other ideas like intranasal lllt and intravenous lllt.

I think it's very possible that we can convince a manufacturer or private designer to design and produce something based on our specifications for wavelength, power density, etc. With the right helmet/beanie we could reduce our stim time to mere minutes every other day or so! That would be effin cool.

Rikelme has already pointed us in some promising directions here. What thoughts and ideas do you guys have about optimal design, price, etc.? This is gonna happen...I would love some feedback so that I can make this as beneficial as possible for as many people as possible. Keep in mind that we can always design entry level devices that might take a little longer to stimulate as well as more expensive devices that can be used for just minutes. My number one goal is for EVERYONE to be able to try this and a more distant goal is creating a device that allows people to stim for about 2 minutes and be done for the day. I would probably sell it as a 'toy' or maybe a 'research device not for human use' kinda like New Star Nootropics sells noots 'not for human consumption'. We wouldn't have to worry about as many regulations this way. Please share thoughts and and ideas...I'm all ears! =)

Supplements--haha Wow, I was gonna get to this but this post is getting out of hand. I'll discuss this more at a later date. Peace out!

Edited by lostfalco, 14 August 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[rikelme]

What are the other two 'metal centers' besides CuA and CuB? (I should just google/wiki this...but I'm a little busy)
...
If anyone knows the answers to these I wouldn't mind if you shared. =)

A quick answer: the other two 'metal centers' are iron-sulfur clusters. That's all I remember from the top of my head.

Edited by rikelme, 14 August 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[cyberger]

Just ran across this Kickstarter project for programmable, chainable 8x8 LED matrices: http://www.kickstart...23-led-matrices

Might something like that work to create a LED based 'helmet' (along the lines of what heelspurs manually wired together: http://heelspurs.com/led.html)? The schematics will be open-sourced, so it may be a useful starting point.

Hardware isn't my expertise so I throw this out as food for thought.

[lostfalco]

I'm thinking that a flexible breadboard might work. It could be elastic like a beanie and therefore form fitting and pretty much one size fits all. What about something like this? http://www.google.co...Q9QEwAw&dur=418

[rikelme]

About the helmet: it can be done without much efforts. As an electrical engineer I knew few things I'm working on mine (still waiting for diodes to arrive). The problem with cheap Chinese LEDs is the lack of their spec - the graph which shows how much power it emits depending on the input current. That is very important for precise power control.

I was looking to use either skateboard / bmx helmet. It would offer a solid base into which I would drill out the wholes for LEDs and laser diodes. On the outside I would put batteries and power supply circuit.
I was thinking to go with kitchen colander too. The wholes are already there, less work for me :D

Edited by rikelme, 14 August 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[lostfalco]

So, PasswordIS09876 over on this reddit thread http://www.reddit.co...tp_can_improve/ found an excellent free full-text downloadable article on oxygen and glucose (plus others related to metabolism and TULIP). Props to Password. One of it's authors is Lauren Owen who also wrote the chapter on glucose and oxygen in the Stough/Scholey book I keep referencing. Check it out and download it if you get a chance.

http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/3/8/735

Edited by lostfalco, 14 August 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[VP.]

Just one last thing...In my experience, oxygen is THE most immediate nootropic. It's pretty much instant. That was one of the reasons I really wanted to try it...along with the fact that oxygen is so fundamental to our existence and we ingest it constantly.

This reminds me from my time on Submarines. We would stay for weeks underwater so we would scrub our air of CO2 and make O2. We would take a bag of pure O2 to the reactor control room and we would would breath out of the bag and get that instant high effect. I was curious if this was some sort of placebo effect so I filled the bag with air instead of pure O2 a couple of times. The effect was the same as pure O2. That is the power of expectations.

[alpal]

There are several supplemental O2 products such as Boost Oxygen that are readily available at Walmart. That being said there are many consumer reviews of these products. It seems under normal breathing conditions these people do not feel any significant nootropic effect but I saw a body builder review saying it helps replenish her when oxygen starved from continuous hard workouts so she can continue.

The nootropic effect of supplemental oxygen by itself seems insignificant to reviewers. But I would urge someone to try it in combination with the potent vasodilator properties of Vitamin B3 (niacin). I have read that some blood vessels in the brain are so small blood cells travel through in single file. To enhance the reach of the O2, perhaps combination with a vasodilator to deliver oxygen to oxygen starved parts of the brain may enhance the effects.

Edited by alpal, 14 August 2013 - 09:11 PM.

[lostfalco]

Just one last thing...In my experience, oxygen is THE most immediate nootropic. It's pretty much instant. That was one of the reasons I really wanted to try it...along with the fact that oxygen is so fundamental to our existence and we ingest it constantly.

This reminds me from my time on Submarines. We would stay for weeks underwater so we would scrub our air of CO2 and make O2. We would take a bag of pure O2 to the reactor control room and we would would breath out of the bag and get that instant high effect. I was curious if this was some sort of placebo effect so I filled the bag with air instead of pure O2 a couple of times. The effect was the same as pure O2. That is the power of expectations.

I couldn't agree more about expectations! Our brains are devious things. I'm a huge fan of biases and heuristics research, placebo effect studies, as well as the avalanche of cog sci research over the past few decades. We are 'strangers to ourselves' as the saying goes. I could definitely be imagining everything. =)

Here are a few people who've made WAY better attempts at accounting for those brain quirks than I have. Check 'em out if you have time.

Oxygen
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/3/8/735
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18569150
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17395994
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22285726
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17662686
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19429029
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20080151
http://www.amazon.co... stough scholey

Edited by lostfalco, 14 August 2013 - 09:24 PM.

[chris106]

Supplements--haha Wow, I was gonna get to this but this post is getting out of hand. I'll discuss this more at a later date. Peace out!

Damn, that was the part I was looking the most forward to. Please don't forget to update us on this in the near future as well.

Edited by chris106, 14 August 2013 - 09:35 PM.

[lostfalco]

There are several supplemental O2 products such as Boost Oxygen that are readily available at Walmart. That being said there are many consumer reviews of these products. It seems under normal breathing conditions these people do not feel any significant nootropic effect but I saw a body builder review saying it helps replenish her when oxygen starved from continuous hard workouts so she can continue.

The nootropic effect of supplemental oxygen by itself seems insignificant to reviewers. But I would urge someone to try it in combination with the potent vasodilator properties of Vitamin B3 (niacin). I have read that some blood vessels in the brain are so small blood cells travel through in single file. To enhance the reach of the O2, perhaps combination with a vasodilator to deliver oxygen to oxygen starved parts of the brain may enhance the effects.

I've had good results with only O2. If you look at the studies, its primary nootropic effect is mostly evident during high mental exertion. Although, it does seem to help at other times as well.

With that said, the vasodilator idea is right on in my experience. I've combined O2 with a vibration plate...which makes me feel incredible. I've also used O2 with the laser (it's a vasodilator), vinpocetine, nicergoline, and combos of all of the above. Huge energy boost for hours.

Edited by lostfalco, 14 August 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[lostfalco]

Supplements--haha Wow, I was gonna get to this but this post is getting out of hand. I'll discuss this more at a later date. Peace out!

Damn, that was the part I was looking the most forward to. Please don't forget to update us on this in the near future as well. :)

I'm having a few ideas myself about what could still be added to the stack, but I'm eager to see what you were thinking of first...

Sorry about that. If you don't mind, I'll cut and paste from a post I made elsewhere. It's a little dated and missing a number of things, but it's a start. =)


Add Mitochondra
1. PQQ (20mg) http://www.amazon.co...eywords=pqq lef

Optimize/Enhance Mitochondrial Energy
2. CoQ10 (300mg) http://www.amazon.co...words=coq10 lef
3. laser (808nm 200mw, 2days on, 1day off per 10-20 EEG site)
4. concentrated oxygen (70% oxygen, 3L/min; 3 minute 'sips' every 10-15 minutes, oxygenation tested with pulse oximeterhttp://www.walgreens...451_pla&adtype={adtype}&kpid=prod6089451&sst=65bde3b7-52ce-49a8-5aa8-0000734a440c )
5. glucose (3tsp)
6. D-ribose (5g/day) http://www.amazon.co...d-ribose jarrow

Optimize Clean Up (this still needs significant work on my part)
7. Oxeloacetate (100mg) http://www.bulletpro...-aging-formula/
8. Glutathione (1 pump every 3-4 hours) http://www.bulletpro...ed-glutathione/

Future Experimental Directions:
9. Creatine
10. EPO I may try a hypoxic tent http://www.hypoxico....g-systems.shtml , intranasal EPO http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23813967 , injectible EPO (anybody have Lance's phone number?), etc. For those of you that blindly follow the media, EPO is not dangerous when used in doctor-monitored, reasonable amounts. If too much, then blood thickens, then death. If proper amount, then more red blood cells, then more oxygen, then more intelligence. It's illegal without a prescription. Hypoxic tent/room/mask is probably the better choice (just ask Michael Phelps http://www.hypoxico.com/ ), though expensive. I'll provide extensive links below on the utterly AMAZING neuroprotective and neuroenhancing properties of EPO. It enhances neuroplasticity, memory, attention, neurogenesis, and hippocampal function while reducing depression. It even affects cognitive function without affecting red blood cells!
11. Resveretrol Spray http://www.prototype...p?ProductCode=R and Leucine (thanks to Joe Cohen from http://selfhacked.com/ for introducing me to this idea...btw, it's not necessary to use spray here)
12. Metformin http://www.antiaging...formin-metforal
13. Mitoquinone
14. Idebenone http://www.newstarno...s.com/index.php
15. Ursolic Acid Spray (50 sprays) http://www.prototype...?ProductCode=UR I'm very interested in this substance for it's antiinflammatory properties and it's purported ability to mobilize brown fat to burn white fat. I do have concerns about possilble temporary infertility in males and it's somewhat untested state. (see the Examine.com article below for more info)
16. NADH
17. IAS's ATP-Boost (combo of ALCAR, ALA, and ATP)
18. Methylene Blue http://www.amazon.co...=methylene blue ( read this amazing article for info on methylene blue and its relationship to photobiomodulationhttp://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23806754 )

Special Acknowledgments:
Dr. Ward Dean: There is an excellent 4 paragraph discussion of mitochondrial optimization on page 17 of 'Aging Matters Magazine' (Issue 2, 2013) by 'Smart Drugs' author himself Dr. Ward Dean. Here are his recommendations: 1. Increase Number of Mitochondria: PQQ, 2. Increase Mitochondrial Energy Producing Intermediates: D-Ribose (5g/day), Creatine (5g/day), CoQ10SR (100mg/day), NADH, and IAS's ATP-Boost (combo of ALCAR, ALA, and ATP).
Dave Asprey: Introduced me to the idea of photobiomodulation/low level laser therapy in a podcast.
Con Stough and Andrew Scholey: Introduced me to the idea of concentrated oxygen and glucose as nootropics.

Studies/Sources
PQQ
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2804159/
http://www.fasebj.or...bstracts/540.21
http://en.wikipedia....inoline_quinone
http://www.lef.org/m...chondria_01.htm
http://examine.com/s...noline quinone/
Source: http://en.wikipedia....inoline_quinone
"In humans, in one double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial conducted in Japan in 2007, supplementation with 20 mg per day of PQQ resulted in improvements on tests of higher cognitive function in a group of 71 middle-aged and elderly people aged between 40-70, who outperformed the placebo group by more than twofold in their standardized memory tests.^[18] Interestingly, co-administration of the unrelated compound coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) further improved performance on standardized memory tests when subjects also took 300 mg per day of CoQ10. No adverse effects were linked to the supplementation, and the results suggested that PQQ, especially when combined with CoQ10, can be used to improve mental status and quality of life in older patients, and help slow or prevent age-related cognitive decline in middle-age patients.
However, the study was not peer-reviewed and was published in a non-academic journal. No proper scientific study of PQQ effects on memory or cognition in humans has been conducted, as of 2013."

Ursolic Acid
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23707761
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21496491
http://www.sciencedi...006295207004339
http://www.sciencedi...889159111002066
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23690863
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ursolic_acid
http://examine.com/s...cid/#summary8-2

Oxygen
http://www.amazon.co... stough scholey
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18569150
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17395994
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22285726
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17662686
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19429029
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20080151

Glucose
http://www.amazon.co... stough scholey

EPO
http://neuroscene.com/?p=234
http://miskowiak.dk/publications.html
http://www.amazon.co...uman capacities
Recent Meta-Analysis:
"METHODS: We systematically reviewed the published findings from animal and human studies exploring the potential of EPO to treat depression-related cognitive dysfunction and depression.
RESULTS: We identified five animal studies (two in male rats, two in male mice and one in male rats and mice) and seven human proof-of-concept studies (five in healthy volunteers and two in depressed patients) that investigated the above. All of the reviewed animal studies but one and all human studies demonstrated beneficial effects of EPO on hippocampus-dependent memory and antidepressant-like effects. These effects appear to be mediated through direct neurobiological actions of EPO rather than upregulation of red cell mass.
CONCLUSIONS: The reviewed studies demonstrate beneficial effects of EPO on hippocampus-dependent memory function and on depression-relevant behavior, thus highlighting EPO as a candidate agent for future management of cognitive dysfunction and mood symptoms in depression. Larger-scale clinical trials of EPO as a treatment for mood and neurocognitive symptoms in patients with mood disorder are therefore warranted."

Edited by lostfalco, 14 August 2013 - 09:59 PM.

[rikelme]

Lostfalco, I hope you ordered 100% Creapure Creatine. It's by far the purest you can find and costs just slightly more than the others. See this Michael's post and scroll down for Creatine hints.

[Nattzor]

Lostfalco, I hope you ordered 100% Creapure Creatine. It's by far the purest you can find and costs just slightly more than the others. See this Michael's post and scroll down for Creatine hints.

Uhm, either we have quality creatine in Sweden or the dude is unlucky. Never had any that tasted soap or really bitter.

I'd go with any creatine monohydrate and wouldn't worry about the "creapure" thing if it's more expensive.

[ThExperiment]

For those that are wanting to make a headband, helmet etc to hold a laser rig, check out this site.

http://www.overmachogrande.com/

He provides step-by-step instructions for making a laser helmet. There are other members there who have uploaded instructions and pictures of their laser helmets. Yes, the original application was to stimulate hair growth, but I'd imagine it could be tweaked for cognitive enhancement.

[lostfalco]

So, I've been trying another lllt device from ebay on and off for the past month or so and I've had good enough results with it that I feel pretty confident in recommending it. It's a 96 LED infrared array with 850nm wavelength light and best of all...it's $39 total. http://www.ebay.com/...=item232c0ac99b

2 Important Notes
1. It has a light sensor on it and only comes on if you dim the room lights a little. Very simple to solve.
2. I removed the glass covering and put the LEDs directly on my skin when I laser. I move them around a little in order to minimize hair blockage of the light. Seems to be very effective.

My basic protocol is to hold it in one spot for about 10minutes. I've used two simultaneously (an extra $39) to speed things up and I've also just used one. Both work. It's pretty big and coverage is good...but there are still about 10 spots so it takes a little time. Another plus side is that LEDs are much safer than lasers. Like the laser, it gets a little warm but nothing to worry about.

For those of you with brain injuries, concussions, depression, ADD, etc...try this. It's well worth the $39 experiment imo. If you do, please report back! Hopefully we can help A LOT of people out.

[rikelme]

So, I've been trying another lllt device from ebay on and off for the past month or so and I've had good enough results with it that I feel pretty confident in recommending it. It's a 96 LED infrared array with 850nm wavelength light and best of all...it's $39 total. http://www.ebay.com/...=item232c0ac99b

2 Important Notes
1. It has a light sensor on it and only comes on if you dim the room lights a little. Very simple to solve.
2. I removed the glass covering and put the LEDs directly on my skin when I laser. I move them around a little in order to minimize hair blockage of the light. Seems to be very effective.

My basic protocol is to hold it in one spot for about 10minutes. I've used two simultaneously (an extra $39) to speed things up and I've also just used one. Both work. It's pretty big and coverage is good...but there are still about 10 spots so it takes a little time. Another plus side is that LEDs are much safer than lasers. Like the laser, it gets a little warm but nothing to worry about.

For those of you with brain injuries, concussions, depression, ADD, etc...try this. It's well worth the $39 experiment imo. If you do, please report back! Hopefully we can help A LOT of people out.

Nice find, lostfalco! $39 is hard to beat... They don't seem to specify the power of a single LED, though. How do you know how long you should keep it on a spot without that information? Maybe we should contact the manufacturer for the LED specs...

[lostfalco]

So, I tried this out today and it seems to work. Let me reiterate...I've only used it once. It's kinda small compared to the 96 LED array and it heats up a little more but it seems like it should work. And...it's only $8.69!!! Just unscrew the glass part and put the LEDs right on your skin. http://www.ebay.com/...=item48548ab808

It's most likely 850nm light even though it doesn't say it directly on the page. If you are really worried about getting 850nm light then you can splurge and buy the $12.49 one that actually says it on the page. Here it is. http://www.ebay.com/...=item3a80a68672

[Dashwolf]

Hey lostfalco, please let me know if you do any more tests with the 48 LED array. I'm trying to decide between the 96 LED array and the 48, and wonder which one you would recommend. I'm also wondering if it's worth getting the 96 array to cover a larger area while heating up (hopefully) slower than the 48. Or maybe two 48 LED arrays? Choices...

[sunshinefrost]

New study for lllt

Low-Level Laser Therapy Rescues Dendrite Atrophy via Upregulating BDNF Expression: Implications for Alzheimer's Disease.

Abstract

Downregulation of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) in the hippocampus occurs early in the progression of Alzheimer's disease (AD). Since BDNF plays a critical role in neuronal survival and dendrite growth, BDNF upregulation may contribute to rescue dendrite atrophy and cell loss in AD. Low-level laser therapy (LLLT) has been demonstrated to regulate neuronal function both in vitro and in vivo. In the present study, we found that LLLT rescued neurons loss and dendritic atrophy via upregulation of BDNF in both Aβ-treated hippocampal neurons and cultured APP/PS1 mouse hippocampal neurons. Photoactivation of transcription factor CRE-binding protein (CREB) increased both BDNF mRNA and protein expression, since knockdown CREB blocked the effects of LLLT. Furthermore, CREB-regulated transcription was in an ERK-dependent manner. Inhibition of ERK attenuated the DNA-binding efficiency of CREB to BDNF promoter. In addition, dendrite growth was improved after LLLT, characterized by upregulation of Rac1 activity and PSD-95 expression, and the increase in length, branching, and spine density of dendrites in hippocampal neurons. Together, these studies suggest that upregulation of BDNF with LLLT by activation of ERK/CREB pathway can ameliorate Aβ-induced neurons loss and dendritic atrophy, thus identifying a novel pathway by which LLLT protects against Aβ-induced neurotoxicity. Our research may provide a feasible therapeutic approach to control the progression of


http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/23946409/

[lostfalco]

New study for lllt

Low-Level Laser Therapy Rescues Dendrite Atrophy via Upregulating BDNF Expression: Implications for Alzheimer's Disease.

Abstract

Downregulation of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) in the hippocampus occurs early in the progression of Alzheimer's disease (AD). Since BDNF plays a critical role in neuronal survival and dendrite growth, BDNF upregulation may contribute to rescue dendrite atrophy and cell loss in AD. Low-level laser therapy (LLLT) has been demonstrated to regulate neuronal function both in vitro and in vivo. In the present study, we found that LLLT rescued neurons loss and dendritic atrophy via upregulation of BDNF in both Aβ-treated hippocampal neurons and cultured APP/PS1 mouse hippocampal neurons. Photoactivation of transcription factor CRE-binding protein (CREB) increased both BDNF mRNA and protein expression, since knockdown CREB blocked the effects of LLLT. Furthermore, CREB-regulated transcription was in an ERK-dependent manner. Inhibition of ERK attenuated the DNA-binding efficiency of CREB to BDNF promoter. In addition, dendrite growth was improved after LLLT, characterized by upregulation of Rac1 activity and PSD-95 expression, and the increase in length, branching, and spine density of dendrites in hippocampal neurons. Together, these studies suggest that upregulation of BDNF with LLLT by activation of ERK/CREB pathway can ameliorate Aβ-induced neurons loss and dendritic atrophy, thus identifying a novel pathway by which LLLT protects against Aβ-induced neurotoxicity. Our research may provide a feasible therapeutic approach to control the progression of


http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/23946409/

Frost...you, my friend, are awesome. Thanks for this. Gonna read it right now.

[lostfalco]

Here are a couple of quick summaries. If you guys see any mistakes or have any thoughts...let me know. =) The study was done on mouse hippocampal cell cultures.

Quick Summary: LLLT is a potential cure/ameliorator of Alzheimer's. LLLT - CREB - BDNF - Dendrite Enhancement - AD Cure/Ameliorator

Less Quick Summary: LLLT upregulates CREB. CREB upregulates BDNF. BDNF causes neuron survival/growth AND dendrite survival/growth. LLLT caused hippocampal dendrites to increase in length, branching, and spine density. Therefore, LLLT is a possible cure/ameliorator of Alzheimer's. Further research justified.

Edited by lostfalco, 16 August 2013 - 06:39 PM.

[lostfalco]

Hey lostfalco, please let me know if you do any more tests with the 48 LED array. I'm trying to decide between the 96 LED array and the 48, and wonder which one you would recommend. I'm also wondering if it's worth getting the 96 array to cover a larger area while heating up (hopefully) slower than the 48. Or maybe two 48 LED arrays? Choices...

My number one recommendation here is to get both if you can. It's only $8 to $12 more to get the 48 LED array. The 96 is great for everything except the forehead (it still works here though) while the 48 is perfect for the forehead.

If you can only get one, I would get the 96.

Edited by lostfalco, 16 August 2013 - 07:05 PM.

[Aronte]

So, I've been trying another lllt device from ebay on and off for the past month or so and I've had good enough results with it that I feel pretty confident in recommending it. It's a 96 LED infrared array with 850nm wavelength light and best of all...it's $39 total. http://www.ebay.com/...=item232c0ac99b

2 Important Notes
1. It has a light sensor on it and only comes on if you dim the room lights a little. Very simple to solve.
2. I removed the glass covering and put the LEDs directly on my skin when I laser. I move them around a little in order to minimize hair blockage of the light. Seems to be very effective.

My basic protocol is to hold it in one spot for about 10minutes. I've used two simultaneously (an extra $39) to speed things up and I've also just used one. Both work. It's pretty big and coverage is good...but there are still about 10 spots so it takes a little time. Another plus side is that LEDs are much safer than lasers. Like the laser, it gets a little warm but nothing to worry about.

For those of you with brain injuries, concussions, depression, ADD, etc...try this. It's well worth the $39 experiment imo. If you do, please report back! Hopefully we can help A LOT of people out.

I find the same device here http://dx.com/p/96-l...on-dc-12v-41108 for $32.99

[rikelme]

I find the same device here http://dx.com/p/96-l...on-dc-12v-41108 for $32.99

Yeah, but that's without power supply and you have to deal with naked wires...

[Plasticperson]

does 850, 830 and 810 nm have the same effects and strength?

[lostfalco]

does 850, 830 and 810 nm have the same effects and strength?

Gonzalez-Lima lists 825nm and Karu lists 830nm as probably the most effective. 808/810nm and 850nm are close enough to be very effective in my experience even if they are not the 'strongest' per se. Truth is, we're still learning about all of this. 808/810nm is the most tested so far and 1064nm has proven to be effective in experiments...as have a number of other wavelengths. Remember, we are talking about absorption peaks here. Wavelengths that hover around those peaks will most likely absorb, just not quite as well.

Gonzalez-Lima says this:

Wavelength is a major LLLT parameter as it greatly determines the molecular target
of light [17-19]. Cytochrome oxidase shows four major light absorption peaks within the red-to-
near-infrared band. These are determined by CuA and CuB, two of the four metal centers within
the enzyme. These peaks of absorption are 620 nm (CuA reduced), 680 nm (CuB oxidized), 760
nm (CuB reduced) and 825 nm (CuA oxidized). In vitro, these absorption peaks correspond to
peaks in DNA synthesis and cell attachment [17].