27 replies to this topic

[IA87]

If so, did you find that it worked for this purpose? Can you quantify your findings? How much did it cost you to purchase the devices involved in neurofeedback training?

[lostfalco]

I have not done it yet but I definitely plan to. I'm actually on a few e-mail lists where people discuss their devices and experiences. I just sort of eavesdrop since i have nothing to add. ha The main thing holding me back right now is cost. Most products are in the $1000-$4000 dollar range. There is a device called Muse by Interaxon that is coming out this year that looks very intriguing though. It's $199 and is very minimal. It pretty much looks like a super thin headband that you wear across your forehead. I keep checking every day for specific release dates and reviews, but nothing so far yet. Check it out here: http://www.interaxon.ca/muse

If they actually pull this off, it would be a truly incredible product. Portable eeg monitoring and controlling devices with thoughts...ummm, pretty damn cool if you ask me (even though you look like you stole your sister's headband and are wearing it on your face).

[DamnedOwl]

...and controlling devices with thoughts...

Bloody hell!

[salamandyr]

FYI forehead isn't a great location for EEG neurofeedback for most things, lostfalco - the next crop of headbands will miss the mark, I believe.

The forehead is very prone to noise, is often a difficult / unpredictable, ill-advised place to train, and most established protocols target the sensiormotor strip (the bit of scalp that runs ear-to-ear), as well as scalp anterior and posterior to it (F and P, T sites).

You really want to start home-based or self-guided training with a good 2 channel EEG that has traditional paste / silver sensors. It's a minor hassle, but worth it. Typically you will put 2 clips on ears and one flat electrode on the scalp. Minor annoyance. And you must make amp choices based on software support. I like PN's stuff for pricepoint and usability (no affiliation).

You have an nirHEG headband right? HEG *is* something that is largely a frontal training approach. While I use pirHEG instead, I think the general approach of HEG activating PFC to add more control / inhibition / strength / stability makes a lot of sense.

Have you tried using BioExplorer with the peanut / nirHEG band? Some good designs out there for BioExplorer. That's another aspect of choosing a platform for home-training. There are many many active users of BE that self or home-train, and even networks of self-trainers sharing designs, advice, etc.

Edited by salamandyr, 29 June 2013 - 05:07 AM.

[salamandyr]

IA87 - yes, I've done it for over a decade, on myself and on many people in clinical and research environments. I've used Continuous Performance Tests (IVA, etc) as well as building tests to assess lateralized attention resources ("alerting", "orienting", and response "conflict"). I've also used much of the hardware and software out there. If you are going to train yourself, some CPT or other attention test on one of the sites (Lumosity, Cambridge Brain Sciences, Quantified Mind), but be sure to pick tests that have small to no "practice effect", or train yourself up on it enough to eliminate the initial effect, at least.

I'd guess you are looking at $1500 or so for a system that works out of the box, and has a broad user base to ask questions of. If you want to learn everything and grounds-up build a system, then Olimex/OpenEEG might be the way to go for a couple hundred $$, but it's for developers/engineers I think mostly at this point. E.g. I'm not sure you can even buy electrodes for it.

A 2-channel EEG amp plus BioExplorer is probably the way to go if you actually want to train and get existing protocols / advice from users.

[umop 3pisdn]

I'd guess you are looking at $1500 or so for a system that works out of the box, and has a broad user base to ask questions of. If you want to learn everything and grounds-up build a system, then Olimex/OpenEEG might be the way to go for a couple hundred $$, but it's for developers/engineers I think mostly at this point. E.g. I'm not sure you can even buy electrodes for it.

A 2-channel EEG amp plus BioExplorer is probably the way to go if you actually want to train and get existing protocols / advice from users.

Pocket Neurobics devices do have a good price point. Though for the same price as a pendant the QDS Focus seems better. Or a person could wait for PN's QWiz and get a 4 channel instrument with HEG and SCP/ILF/DC functionality for relatively little more cost.

[salamandyr]

I'd guess you are looking at $1500 or so for a system that works out of the box, and has a broad user base to ask questions of. If you want to learn everything and grounds-up build a system, then Olimex/OpenEEG might be the way to go for a couple hundred $$, but it's for developers/engineers I think mostly at this point. E.g. I'm not sure you can even buy electrodes for it.

A 2-channel EEG amp plus BioExplorer is probably the way to go if you actually want to train and get existing protocols / advice from users.

Pocket Neurobics devices do have a good price point. Though for the same price as a pendant the QDS Focus seems better. Or a person could wait for PN's QWiz and get a 4 channel instrument with HEG and SCP/ILF/DC functionality for relatively little more cost.

Don't forget that the cost of HEG also includes the headsets.. so you will add a bit more to the QWiz to get full nirHEG or pirHEG function. But I do agree, the Q-Wiz is a nice device but brings the "price" well above the $1500 mark. I was mostly trying to ballpark a "lowest price" usable package, which these days is probably an E-Wiz with BioEra.

[IA87]

How significant are the results? If you have been using these tests, you must have some excellent data motivates you to keep on using EEG. I am very interested to know about these.

[umop 3pisdn]

I'd guess you are looking at $1500 or so for a system that works out of the box, and has a broad user base to ask questions of. If you want to learn everything and grounds-up build a system, then Olimex/OpenEEG might be the way to go for a couple hundred $$, but it's for developers/engineers I think mostly at this point. E.g. I'm not sure you can even buy electrodes for it.

A 2-channel EEG amp plus BioExplorer is probably the way to go if you actually want to train and get existing protocols / advice from users.

Pocket Neurobics devices do have a good price point. Though for the same price as a pendant the QDS Focus seems better. Or a person could wait for PN's QWiz and get a 4 channel instrument with HEG and SCP/ILF/DC functionality for relatively little more cost.

Don't forget that the cost of HEG also includes the headsets.. so you will add a bit more to the QWiz to get full nirHEG or pirHEG function. But I do agree, the Q-Wiz is a nice device but brings the "price" well above the $1500 mark. I was mostly trying to ballpark a "lowest price" usable package, which these days is probably an E-Wiz with BioEra.

Right, of course, and emphasizing compliance with other neurofeedback modalities might be a bit zealous. I also hadn't realized that PN replaced the pendant with the EWiz. I remember when their pendant was on the market the QDS focus seemed like the stronger hardware as far as signal quality, etc, and it was basically the same price (and also compliant with Bioexplorer and Bioera) but I don't know if that is still the case. In any case that's basically the other affordable option. The brain trainer/learning curve website sells them.

Edit: oh and the physiopilot GP8 looks good, too, and is also supported by those two software platforms.

Edited by umop 3pisdn, 29 June 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[salamandyr]

How significant are the results? If you have been using these tests, you must have some excellent data motivates you to keep on using EEG. I am very interested to know about these.

There are a few metrics to measure results with neurofeedback. 1 - subjective; do you feel different. 2 - do you get changes on a standardized test of attention (IVA, TOVA, Connors CPT, etc). 3) does the QEEG brain map change. The QEEG is typically stable, barring maturation, drugs, or injury, so pre-post changes are good empirical evidence.

In terms of what I've seen? Well most of my experience has been in a clinical environment working with executive function, or in a research / academic enviornment studying nfb's effects on attention. Within that range, I've seen the occasional "amazing transformation", but more typically i've seen good remediation of attention problems and other regulatory stuff (mood, arousal, anxiety, sleep, etc).

For the CPT metrics specifically, i've seen many many kids improve 2-3 standard deviations or more on typical tests, in ~ 20 sessions of training. Most clinicians report ~ 90% efficacy rate, across clients and complaints.

Because the process is done monitoring it's effects subjectively, you get (1), and somewhere in the first 3-5 sessions you should start "feeling" it.

The broader perspective that keeps me with it includes more empirical measures from CPT and also QEEG - many practitioners show QEEG changes pre/post 20-30 sessions (at conferences, etc) that show normalization of patterns that are likely related to presenting complaint. I've done short course training experiments that suggest the brain "picks up" what's being asked, pretty quickly, too.

Because the process is so individualized in a clinical or even peak-performance setting, it's been somewhat difficult to do typical "group" based research. Also because it takes repetition, and (until recently) it was very difficult to do a "double blind" EEG study. I managed to do one as part of my dissertation, and found pretty clear ERP results.

This is unpublished data, but let me show you some ERPs.. these are the evoked waveforms for the "BEEP / Picture" reward of neurofeedback. There are four biofeedback protocols, groups labeled on right or diagram: C3SMR, C4SMR, C3Beta and SHAM. Electrodes for each group were at C3-A1 or C4-A2, reward frequency was SMR (12-15 Hz) or Beta (15-18 Hz) or Sham (rewards for SMR or Beta were calculated from stored EEG segments). Active groups also inhibited 4-7 and 22-30 Hz, and Sham group received Sham inhibits. Blinding was maintained by passing artifact and signal issues through to the screen, and blending stored samples with realtime movement/signal artifact (using EEGer software).

This ERP is generated at midline vertex (Cz) using an average head reference (in other pictures it's obvious that the magnitude of change is larger at C3 or C4, depending on if they were trained at C3 or C4 (though not totally as expected):






There are three BFB Sessions showing in each ERP. Session 1, 5, and 6. Session 1 is the first day they did biofeedback. Session 5 is the 5th day (in a row) that they did biofeedback. Session 6 is after a *one month* break, when they returned to the lab and did another BFB session.

Even if you don't know ERPs at all, it should be sorta obvious that the "shape" of the ERPs as they progress within first week (1 to 5) and then after a month break (6) are different in the 3 active groups vs Sham. It's enough to say for now that different ERPs often give very good insight into attention function (I have ERPs from attention tests given to these same groups these same days).

So... my research and clinical work all conspires to keep telling me that *something* happens, that is fairly profound, if often subtle. So, guess I will continue to help people remediate attention challenges as well as reach peak cognitive function while I narrow in on how and why it works!

[Candidatus]

Wow, thank you for all that info Dr. Hill,

I would like to ask one (tricky) question regarding EEG/HEG. I suffer from pretty bad side effects caused by ETS - endoscopic thoracic sympathectomy, which I foolishly underwent 5 years ago. The operation itself was about removing a chunk of sympathetic chain, innervating upper half of my torso (nipple line up) in order to stop palmar hyperhidrosis. Now insted of that, I suffer from whole body hyperhidrosis from nipple line down and some other side effects.

The main problem is, that when I excite my sympathetic nervous system (exercise, heat, anxiety, stress), then comes the response and my question is, if it is possible to teach my brain to not overreact under stressful circumstances with the use of neurofeedback? I have seen some minor improvements with mindfulness meditation and raw pescetarian diet which I follow strictly for maybe half a year.

If not feasible for my problem, I would otherwise use it also for general cognitive enhancement purposes.

Secondly, I would like to ask what is the primary difference between 2 and 4 channel devices (talking PocketNeurobics) and if the 24 channel cap for Q-Wiz offer something crucial for neurofeedback training or if E-Wiz is sufficient. I am relatively new to this, so I am sorry if those questions seem too absurd.

Many thanks for any reply.

[Strangelove]

From searching on line for a while, neuroptimal (home edition) seems the "most promising unit", its expensive though $5000+ and I am not sure that worths that kind of money compared with the effects you can get with nootropic regiments for much cheaper. It would be interesting to combine though, if I ever have the extra cash... If any member has experience with it, I would really like to hear it!

[salamandyr]

Wow, thank you for all that info Dr. Hill,

I would like to ask one (tricky) question regarding EEG/HEG. I suffer from pretty bad side effects caused by ETS - endoscopic thoracic sympathectomy, which I foolishly underwent 5 years ago. The operation itself was about removing a chunk of sympathetic chain, innervating upper half of my torso (nipple line up) in order to stop palmar hyperhidrosis. Now insted of that, I suffer from whole body hyperhidrosis from nipple line down and some other side effects.

The main problem is, that when I excite my sympathetic nervous system (exercise, heat, anxiety, stress), then comes the response and my question is, if it is possible to teach my brain to not overreact under stressful circumstances with the use of neurofeedback? I have seen some minor improvements with mindfulness meditation and raw pescetarian diet which I follow strictly for maybe half a year.

If not feasible for my problem, I would otherwise use it also for general cognitive enhancement purposes.

Secondly, I would like to ask what is the primary difference between 2 and 4 channel devices (talking PocketNeurobics) and if the 24 channel cap for Q-Wiz offer something crucial for neurofeedback training or if E-Wiz is sufficient. I am relatively new to this, so I am sorry if those questions seem too absurd.

Many thanks for any reply.

Candidatus - I'm not sure if nfb can help the sympathetic activation. It might, but I've never used it that way. I might try peripheral biofeedback for that, if possible. e.g. find some peripheral measure of activation (GSR, etc) and try training that. Have you tried HRV? e.g. something like an emwave2?

Re PN - The Q-Wiz "cap" is for mapping amplitudes of EEG around the head.. not really for training I don't think. An E-Wiz or (discontinued EEG Pendant) is probably fine for just training. I'd still recommend getting a QEEG brain map to help guide the training, however.

Edited by salamandyr, 05 July 2013 - 06:32 PM.

[salamandyr]

From searching on line for a while, neuroptimal (home edition) seems the "most promising unit", its expensive though $5000+ and I am not sure that worths that kind of money compared with the effects you can get with nootropic regiments for much cheaper. It would be interesting to combine though, if I ever have the extra cash... If any member has experience with it, I would really like to hear it!

I dont know why you think that system is "promising".. I view it as one of a handful of systems, but it's not my first choice. For home-training I'd just go with a Pocket Neurobics amp plus bioexplorer or bioera. The Zengar / Neurooptimal stuff does lots of proprietary / hidden / secret stuff... and I'm not sure it's "worth it", or that you would even use their special features.

If you were going to to for an expensive clinical system, I'd start with EEGer, which is the "standard" in the field, and probalby use a Thought Technology amp with that software. Other decent options might be a Brainmaster Avatar or Cygnet system. All of those will run $3500 to probably twice that...

Otherwise a PN kit is around $1500. Of course, much of the "cost" of any system will be in time and practice, and learning. Knowing "what" to train is not trivial, and the learning curve on the hardware/software will have to be supported by learning what your brain is like (which is why I suggest starting with a QEEG) and then knowing what protocols to try, how often, and what to try after initial responses.

also @Fate - effects from neurofeedback are often largely permanent. That's another place where they diverge from the effects you can get from nootropics.

[Strangelove]

also @Fate - effects from neurofeedback are often largely permanent. That's another place where they diverge from the effects you can get from nootropics.

Salamandyr, great to have you here, although, I have tried many "brain technologies" (entrainment, biofeedback, basic neurofeedback with emotiv, tDCS, magnetic stimulation with Shakti - 8 coil, CES and more) I have seen best results with nootropics stacks, nevertheless its great to see someone knowledgable with neurofedback with recommendations! Soon, I am thinking to spend money and try some new brain stimulation devices... I am interested on neurofedback and I would check all your recommendations. From experience though I need something not too time consuming to understand the system and quick to set up for each session! Well, I am afraid, that I said neuroptimal is promising due to the company's marketing efforts... But so I will not appear easily gullible what happened, checked around, checked their site, read some posts in a neuroptimal Yahoo group and sounded somewhat promising. Something I found really positive about this system is the easy set up, and the technique they use, guiding neurofeedback by freezing the frames of a movie, or music that you hear, short enough to consciously detect it (is it something common that other companies use as well? Do you think that it works, as much as conscious effort neurofeedback?) What is the best home system in your opinion that is relatively easy to use, if you are not experienced with neurofeedback? I have read couple of books, and can put some time to it, but I would be more interested to find a qualified practitioner if too much technical knowledge was needed to ripe the benefits from using a home system, surprisingly there are just a few practitioners in my town and I did not got convinced to spend money for sessions. For some reason enter does not work for spacing the paragraph, any other way to do it, or just a glitch?

Edited by niner, 12 November 2014 - 02:53 AM.

[Candidatus]

Wow, thank you for all that info Dr. Hill,

I would like to ask one (tricky) question regarding EEG/HEG. I suffer from pretty bad side effects caused by ETS - endoscopic thoracic sympathectomy, which I foolishly underwent 5 years ago. The operation itself was about removing a chunk of sympathetic chain, innervating upper half of my torso (nipple line up) in order to stop palmar hyperhidrosis. Now insted of that, I suffer from whole body hyperhidrosis from nipple line down and some other side effects.

The main problem is, that when I excite my sympathetic nervous system (exercise, heat, anxiety, stress), then comes the response and my question is, if it is possible to teach my brain to not overreact under stressful circumstances with the use of neurofeedback? I have seen some minor improvements with mindfulness meditation and raw pescetarian diet which I follow strictly for maybe half a year.

If not feasible for my problem, I would otherwise use it also for general cognitive enhancement purposes.

Secondly, I would like to ask what is the primary difference between 2 and 4 channel devices (talking PocketNeurobics) and if the 24 channel cap for Q-Wiz offer something crucial for neurofeedback training or if E-Wiz is sufficient. I am relatively new to this, so I am sorry if those questions seem too absurd.

Many thanks for any reply.

Candidatus - I'm not sure if nfb can help the sympathetic activation. It might, but I've never used it that way. I might try peripheral biofeedback for that, if possible. e.g. find some peripheral measure of activation (GSR, etc) and try training that. Have you tried HRV? e.g. something like an emwave2?

Re PN - The Q-Wiz "cap" is for mapping amplitudes of EEG around the head.. not really for training I don't think. An E-Wiz or (discontinued EEG Pendant) is probably fine for just training. I'd still recommend getting a QEEG brain map to help guide the training, however.

Thanks a lot for the info! I have been looking at emwave2, it seems like a nice little device that may be useful according to many positive reviews. Do you have any experience with it? Also, do you think that this http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top would have the same functionallity, or is the finger sensor much better with the regular emwave2? I may probably try this for start and E-Wiz later.

Thanks again, I really aprecciate your presence on Longecity.

[salamandyr]

@Candidatus - sure - that sensor from Heartmath is basically a mobile device emwave, with their free app. I like the full screen (desktop) software but I bet the iOS version is great too, though I've not used it.

[salamandyr]

 

also @Fate - effects from neurofeedback are often largely permanent. That's another place where they diverge from the effects you can get from nootropics.

Salamandyr, great to have you here, although, I have tried many "brain technologies" (entrainment, biofeedback, basic neurofeedback with emotiv, tDCS, magnetic stimulation with Shakti - 8 coil, CES and more) I have seen best results with nootropics stacks, nevertheless its great to see someone knowledgable with neurofedback with recommendations! Soon, I am thinking to spend money and try some new brain stimulation devices... I am interested on neurofedback and I would check all your recommendations. From experience though I need something not too time consuming to understand the system and quick to set up for each session! Well, I am afraid, that I said neuroptimal is promising due to the company's marketing efforts... But so I will not appear easily gullible what happened, checked around, checked their site, read some posts in a neuroptimal Yahoo group and sounded somewhat promising. Something I found really positive about this system is the easy set up, and the technique they use, guiding neurofeedback by freezing the frames of a movie, or music that you hear, short enough to consciously detect it (is it something common that other companies use as well? Do you think that it works, as much as conscious effort neurofeedback?) What is the best home system in your opinion that is relatively easy to use, if you are not experienced with neurofeedback? I have read couple of books, and can put some time to it, but I would be more interested to find a qualified practitioner if too much technical knowledge was needed to ripe the benefits from using a home system, surprisingly there are just a few practitioners in my town and I did not got convinced to spend money for sessions. For some reason enter does not work for spacing the paragraph, any other way to do it, or just a glitch?

 

 

Simply put, there is no such thing as "conscious effort" in neurofeedback - it's not required, and may not even happen. It is only needed in peripheral biofeedback. In "central" biofeedback - neurofeedback - there is no acquired skill transfer, and that's one of the reasons that it works somewhat "permanently", you don't have to practice the skill to maintain it b/c you always "are" to some extent. It was discovered on cats, where were probably not "trying", and it works on people in comas, profoundly disabled (nonverbal) kids, etc. All neurofeedback is more like instrumental conditioning, where you are setting "thresholds" above / below some measured-and-varying parameter. When it fluctuates across your threshold, feedback happens. The brain wants input, so it eventually spends more time making that condition happen. As the brain changes, you move the thresholds to keep "learning" happening. No effort required. You just have to sit there.

That being said, even with a system like the one you found, you will still need to know what to do re protocol. Zengar has a couple of "proprietary" add-ons like "amount on entropy" and probably some other things by now, and probably define "optimal brain" states, to train "towards" but there *is no such thing*. There is vast normal and pathological variation in QEEG and ongoing evoked/induced EEG patterns. Neurofeedback is definately not a one-size-fits-all process. "Discriminants" are weak in the EEG literature, since phenotypes cross diagnostic label boundaries.

As I said in above, I think one of the Pocket Neurobics amps (E-wiz?) with BioExplorer is easiest to use for home / self-training, but you will still need to learn about the process of neurofeedback, and that will take some reading, some practice, and some trial and error. Weeks (or months) of it to get "good" at the technical (and strategic) aspects. If your goal is simply to "change", I'd have someone else do it. E.g. if you are trying to get rid of attention problems, you won't have enough attention to learn to do the process, maybe

If your goal is to learn to "brain hack" because there are lots of things you know about yourself that you want to try to fine-tune, then go for it. But there is no magic "protocol" that works for everyone or for the many and varied brain regulatory patterns you might want to change.

If you are doing it in a clinic or at home, I recommend finding someone to perform a QEEG on you. That will give you an "evidence-base" for protocol selection, helping answer some "what to do" questions, which is very useful in actually making progress.

Edited by niner, 12 November 2014 - 02:54 AM.

[Strangelove]

 

 

also @Fate - effects from neurofeedback are often largely permanent. That's another place where they diverge from the effects you can get from nootropics.

Salamandyr, great to have you here, although, I have tried many "brain technologies" (entrainment, biofeedback, basic neurofeedback with emotiv, tDCS, magnetic stimulation with Shakti - 8 coil, CES and more) I have seen best results with nootropics stacks, nevertheless its great to see someone knowledgable with neurofedback with recommendations! Soon, I am thinking to spend money and try some new brain stimulation devices... I am interested on neurofedback and I would check all your recommendations. From experience though I need something not too time consuming to understand the system and quick to set up for each session! Well, I am afraid, that I said neuroptimal is promising due to the company's marketing efforts... But so I will not appear easily gullible what happened, checked around, checked their site, read some posts in a neuroptimal Yahoo group and sounded somewhat promising. Something I found really positive about this system is the easy set up, and the technique they use, guiding neurofeedback by freezing the frames of a movie, or music that you hear, short enough to consciously detect it (is it something common that other companies use as well? Do you think that it works, as much as conscious effort neurofeedback?) What is the best home system in your opinion that is relatively easy to use, if you are not experienced with neurofeedback? I have read couple of books, and can put some time to it, but I would be more interested to find a qualified practitioner if too much technical knowledge was needed to ripe the benefits from using a home system, surprisingly there are just a few practitioners in my town and I did not got convinced to spend money for sessions. For some reason enter does not work for spacing the paragraph, any other way to do it, or just a glitch?

 

Simply put, there is no such thing as "conscious effort" in neurofeedback - it's not required, and may not even happen. It is only needed in peripheral biofeedback. In "central" biofeedback - neurofeedback - there is no acquired skill transfer, and that's one of the reasons that it works somewhat "permanently", you don't have to practice the skill to maintain it b/c you always "are" to some extent. It was discovered on cats, where were probably not "trying", and it works on people in comas, profoundly disabled (nonverbal) kids, etc. All neurofeedback is more like instrumental conditioning, where you are setting "thresholds" above / below some measured-and-varying parameter. When it fluctuates across your threshold, feedback happens. The brain wants input, so it eventually spends more time making that condition happen. As the brain changes, you move the thresholds to keep "learning" happening. No effort required. You just have to sit there.

That being said, even with a system like the one you found, you will still need to know what to do re protocol. Zengar has a couple of "proprietary" add-ons like "amount on entropy" and probably some other things by now, and probably define "optimal brain" states, to train "towards" but there *is no such thing*. There is vast normal and pathological variation in QEEG and ongoing evoked/induced EEG patterns. Neurofeedback is definately not a one-size-fits-all process. "Discriminants" are weak in the EEG literature, since phenotypes cross diagnostic label boundaries.

As I said in above, I think one of the Pocket Neurobics amps (E-wiz?) with BioExplorer is easiest to use for home / self-training, but you will still need to learn about the process of neurofeedback, and that will take some reading, some practice, and some trial and error. Weeks (or months) of it to get "good" at the technical (and strategic) aspects. If your goal is simply to "change", I'd have someone else do it. E.g. if you are trying to get rid of attention problems, you won't have enough attention to learn to do the process, maybe

If your goal is to learn to "brain hack" because there are lots of things you know about yourself that you want to try to fine-tune, then go for it. But there is no magic "protocol" that works for everyone or for the many and varied brain regulatory patterns you might want to change.

If you are doing it in a clinic or at home, I recommend finding someone to perform a QEEG on you. That will give you an "evidence-base" for protocol selection, helping answer some "what to do" questions, which is very useful in actually making progress.

 

Great, very informative! From reading about neurofeedback I am getting what you say, but from all the experiences/descriptions, I thought that you have to consciously perceive the feedback, and best not doing anything else, I am getting what you say that "effort" is not really needed, but seems interesting the simple idea to look at a movie or hear music and doing neurofeedback when the feedback is very short (to consciously perceive) pauses... Also, yes I am very suspicious... of these "doing it all" neuroptimal sessions, and at the same time curious... I know the basics in neurofeedback and that is a fine tuning process (especially for therapy) that is different for each individual and condition, but I am more interested in sessions for using your brain with best results like more of left/right brain synchronization or alpha training? Yes I am very interested in "brain hacking" and I have personal experience with almost any technology is brain altering (with just basic neurofeedback with emotiv driving isochronic sessions) the results can be very good at the time that you use these technologies, but I do not really see the changes to stay for the long-term (as with neurofeedback that you mentioned) and at times the stimulation (electric, magnetic, photic etc) can be a little rough on the brain, having side effects. Still I cannot use enter for spacing... Is it just me??

Edited by niner, 12 November 2014 - 02:55 AM.

[salamandyr]

sorry for the slow reply - dunno about your "enter for spacing issue" (prob your keyboard - try shift-enter or cntrl-enter)

but after you and a couple other people mentioned it I did want to say that I dont think the emotiv is up to the task of nfb like we are talking about, for a few reasons:

• it only has a forehead sensor. most nfb you do will be on the motor strip (temporal and central sites), or posterior for alpha work. forehead sensors are abysmal for EMG noise too. that means you are using subtle face expressions to drive it, probably.
• the software layer on their end seems to have a perceptible lag. lag will break feedback. using other software (BioExplorer) helps, but there is so much EMG noise (see 1) in the signal that's it's useless
• you want to do various protocols. they have a couple of basic things, but you want control over frequencies and thresholds. so as a $100 single electrode+amp with a fixed sensor, it's still limited until you have spent a bunch more on better software, and then you want more flexible hardware. better to start off spending that on a use-ready kit up front.

really the location is the biggest problem.

look into OpenEEG and the Olimex prefab boards if you want to hack your own nfb system together as well.
wont cost you more than a couple hundred $, and wont take more than 100's of hours of your time to get working.

none of the consumer devices for $100-250 actually do any neurofeedback, as far as i'm concerned. fixed sensor location is a non-starter. you need to get above $1K for consumer stuff before anything works off the shelf to do real nfb work (PN u-wiz kit w bioera is $1100, e-wiz is $1300, h-wiz (for pirHEG) is $1400, etc.. bioexplorer is a bit more instead of bioera)

clinical systems are $5-10K. and they do things that the consumer software doesnt, but the advantage is mostly in certification, reliability, and consistent performance. the clinical systems have better gui's too, for that matter, and support a much wider range of hardware.. usually - unless they are software+hardware proprietary systems (cygnet, for instance - which comes with it's own amp).

[Godof Smallthings]

IA87 - yes, I've done it for over a decade, on myself and on many people in clinical and research environments. I've used Continuous Performance Tests (IVA, etc) as well as building tests to assess lateralized attention resources ("alerting", "orienting", and response "conflict"). I've also used much of the hardware and software out there. If you are going to train yourself, some CPT or other attention test on one of the sites (Lumosity, Cambridge Brain Sciences, Quantified Mind), but be sure to pick tests that have small to no "practice effect", or train yourself up on it enough to eliminate the initial effect, at least.

I'd guess you are looking at $1500 or so for a system that works out of the box, and has a broad user base to ask questions of. If you want to learn everything and grounds-up build a system, then Olimex/OpenEEG might be the way to go for a couple hundred $$, but it's for developers/engineers I think mostly at this point. E.g. I'm not sure you can even buy electrodes for it.

A 2-channel EEG amp plus BioExplorer is probably the way to go if you actually want to train and get existing protocols / advice from users.

 

What makes these devices so expensive? Tech moves forward, everything else becomes cheaper, but the pricing of these devices still seems very high, comparatively speaking.

[salamandyr]

 

 

What makes these devices so expensive? Tech moves forward, everything else becomes cheaper, but the pricing of these devices still seems very high, comparatively speaking.

 

 

Devices run $500 to 20K, and software costs keep pace.  It's not hard to spend $10K on a nice setup, and you will certainly spend at least 20K if you want to get a clinical quality multi-channel amp for QEEG (21 channels plus ears, minimum), and (commercial) reference database + analysis software.   

 

A lot of it is probably niche market status and a relatively few number of players... but costs *have* come down.  Pocket Neurobics were a later company into the market, and are currently the cheapest hardware.  PN as well as other players - J&J Engineering, Brainmaster, Thought Technology, EEG Spectrum (Cygnet), Neuroguide, etc. - make amps, software or both, focused on the bfb/nfb market.  Zukor is one of a very few game companies...  there are probably only about a dozen players in the market.  

 

Unlike most of the rest of the players, PN just makes amps - so the $600-1K is only half the cost.  The software to use it is $250-$400, plus games ($100-$400 each), but 15 years ago it was hard to get equipped to do neurofeedback for less than $10K.  So a usable home system for ~ $1300 plus a decent windows computer isnt "so expensive" on the grand scheme of things.

 

Also .. how expensive is it to not improve your performance (or attention / sleep / stress / mood / etc)...?  

 

If you want cheap and have the time, skills, and energy, build something in OpenEEG or OpenVibe that can use an Olimex board (99 Euro) and make your own electrodes. You will probably only spend $250 in parts to build your own amp / electrodes, and some dozens of hours building training protocols / rewards, thresholding, etc.

 

There are some costs you are forgetting, though, maybe..  knowing "what to do" with EEG systems.  

 

Not just how to run the software, apply electrodes, get a good EEG signal, etc..  but then what?  There are no 1-size-fits-all protocols.  Where do you train on the head?  Why?  What frequencies?  Up or down?  How about coherence or phase, should you train that?  One channel or two?  Summed, differenced, independent, shared information, etc..   And what do you do when you get adverse or sub-optimal effects?  Provoke anxiety or sleep issues in yourself.. or worse - someone else.  

 

There is a lot that goes into selecting training protocols for people, and typically a QEEG helps identify some good starting places, for protocols that should work for you (or should be avoided).   That adds cost, but gives you a lot of information about patterns you are working with - many of them research validated, others from clinical lore.  But they give you a starting place and then, based on responses you adjust the protocols and alter your approach based on the QEEG and the responses you get... choosing new protocols and things to try, based on what you are working with and what you know about how the brain works, how EEG works, and how neurofeedback works.  

 

That cost in knowledge is non-trivial.  To some extent the market has remained small not because people are unwilling to spend $1K, or $5K, or 10K for gear, but because it makes the most sense to do that when you are willing / able, or already have put in other significant investments in time and knowledge.  

 

For someone (like me) who has that perspective and can get reliable effects, a $5K clinical system and $20K QEEG rig isn't painless.

 

I'm not sure what the biofeedback equivalent is of buying a treadmill and then using it to hang your laundry on.. but if you buy nfb gear and don't use it (or use it reasonably well) then yes, it's very expensive.  But if you get good results (the response rate to most attention / sleep protocols seems to be over 90% in a clinical setting, for instance), then a couple of grand is trivial against what you have gained, and probably gained permanently.

 

Edited by salamandyr, 05 September 2014 - 04:06 AM.

[Godof Smallthings]

Thank you for your reply. I think if prices came down, the methods would be made available through the regular medical system. If they are conclusively proven to be as successful as that, then the only (valid) reason to not provide them would be cost efficiency.

 

So if any bright young engineers read this, hint hint, here is an opportunity to make new, shiny, cheaper neurofeedback hardware and a buck.

[salamandyr]

Thank you for your reply. I think if prices came down, the methods would be made available through the regular medical system. If they are conclusively proven to be as successful as that, then the only (valid) reason to not provide them would be cost efficiency.

 

So if any bright young engineers read this, hint hint, here is an opportunity to make new, shiny, cheaper neurofeedback hardware and a buck.

 

 

Yeah, because medical devices are so cheap.. as are medical degrees, and the entire medical / health care system.. let's give neurofeedback wholly over to that realm..

[Godof Smallthings]

[MRBIOFEEDBACK]

I have not done it yet but I definitely plan to. I'm actually on a few e-mail lists where people discuss their devices and experiences. I just sort of eavesdrop since i have nothing to add. ha The main thing holding me back right now is cost. Most products are in the $1000-$4000 dollar range. There is a device called Muse by Interaxon that is coming out this year that looks very intriguing though. It's $199 and is very minimal. It pretty much looks like a super thin headband that you wear across your forehead. I keep checking every day for specific release dates and reviews, but nothing so far yet. Check it out here: http://www.interaxon.ca/muse

If they actually pull this off, it would be a truly incredible product. Portable eeg monitoring and controlling devices with thoughts...ummm, pretty damn cool if you ask me (even though you look like you stole your sister's headband and are wearing it on your face).

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but Muse has nothing to do with Neurofeedback. Its a consumer device aimed at making gadgets and stuff. First off, the electrodes would not hit any of the frontal or central or parietal sites that are commonly used for neurofeedback training. Donèt get me wrong, its a cool device & you may be able to control some thing with it in the future, but a neurofeedback medical device it is not! 

[MRBIOFEEDBACK]

 

 

 

What makes these devices so expensive? Tech moves forward, everything else becomes cheaper, but the pricing of these devices still seems very high, comparatively speaking.

 

 

Devices run $500 to 20K, and software costs keep pace.  It's not hard to spend $10K on a nice setup, and you will certainly spend at least 20K if you want to get a clinical quality multi-channel amp for QEEG (21 channels plus ears, minimum), and (commercial) reference database + analysis software.   

 

A lot of it is probably niche market status and a relatively few number of players... but costs *have* come down.  Pocket Neurobics were a later company into the market, and are currently the cheapest hardware.  PN as well as other players - J&J Engineering, Brainmaster, Thought Technology, EEG Spectrum (Cygnet), Neuroguide, etc. - make amps, software or both, focused on the bfb/nfb market.  Zukor is one of a very few game companies...  there are probably only about a dozen players in the market.  

 

Unlike most of the rest of the players, PN just makes amps - so the $600-1K is only half the cost.  The software to use it is $250-$400, plus games ($100-$400 each), but 15 years ago it was hard to get equipped to do neurofeedback for less than $10K.  So a usable home system for ~ $1300 plus a decent windows computer isnt "so expensive" on the grand scheme of things.

 

Also .. how expensive is it to not improve your performance (or attention / sleep / stress / mood / etc)...?  

 

If you want cheap and have the time, skills, and energy, build something in OpenEEG or OpenVibe that can use an Olimex board (99 Euro) and make your own electrodes. You will probably only spend $250 in parts to build your own amp / electrodes, and some dozens of hours building training protocols / rewards, thresholding, etc.

 

There are some costs you are forgetting, though, maybe..  knowing "what to do" with EEG systems.  

 

Not just how to run the software, apply electrodes, get a good EEG signal, etc..  but then what?  There are no 1-size-fits-all protocols.  Where do you train on the head?  Why?  What frequencies?  Up or down?  How about coherence or phase, should you train that?  One channel or two?  Summed, differenced, independent, shared information, etc..   And what do you do when you get adverse or sub-optimal effects?  Provoke anxiety or sleep issues in yourself.. or worse - someone else.  

 

There is a lot that goes into selecting training protocols for people, and typically a QEEG helps identify some good starting places, for protocols that should work for you (or should be avoided).   That adds cost, but gives you a lot of information about patterns you are working with - many of them research validated, others from clinical lore.  But they give you a starting place and then, based on responses you adjust the protocols and alter your approach based on the QEEG and the responses you get... choosing new protocols and things to try, based on what you are working with and what you know about how the brain works, how EEG works, and how neurofeedback works.  

 

That cost in knowledge is non-trivial.  To some extent the market has remained small not because people are unwilling to spend $1K, or $5K, or 10K for gear, but because it makes the most sense to do that when you are willing / able, or already have put in other significant investments in time and knowledge.  

 

For someone (like me) who has that perspective and can get reliable effects, a $5K clinical system and $20K QEEG rig isn't painless.

 

I'm not sure what the biofeedback equivalent is of buying a treadmill and then using it to hang your laundry on.. but if you buy nfb gear and don't use it (or use it reasonably well) then yes, it's very expensive.  But if you get good results (the response rate to most attention / sleep protocols seems to be over 90% in a clinical setting, for instance), then a couple of grand is trivial against what you have gained, and probably gained permanently.

 

 

excellent overview of professional systems. Consumer devices that read EEG signals are not to be used for training your brain. 

[MRBIOFEEDBACK]

Thank you for your reply. I think if prices came down, the methods would be made available through the regular medical system. If they are conclusively proven to be as successful as that, then the only (valid) reason to not provide them would be cost efficiency.

 

So if any bright young engineers read this, hint hint, here is an opportunity to make new, shiny, cheaper neurofeedback hardware and a buck.

 

Yes. Double-blind, placebo controlled, Multicenter clinical trials  are hard to do in this industry. There is no Billion dollar company to invest millions into one large study to get FDA approval for use as approved treatment protocols for neurological diseases. The real benefit of that would obviously be insurance coverage. That's the real issue here. NFB is not covered. However, though you can probably build a very very basic 2 channel encoder for cheap, the sensors take quite some development and then you have to factor in the software as well. Plus, this isn't the kind of thing you want to make available to the public. A QEEG is necessary to provide a roadmap to treatment. Scientific knowledge is as well. So go ahead and build an encoder if you want, its really not everything you need.