45 replies to this topic

[exigentsky]

I have been taking 4.375 mg of Piracetam in conjunction with 350 mg of Alpha GPC for the past three days and I have to say it seems to have affected me negatively. I have felt unusually tired both mentally and physically, mentally sluggish and sometimes even confused over small things. I even lost 33 points on an IQ test I took the other day, I previously had a score of 139 and now I was down to 106. (I'm not claiming that IQ tests are stable or accurate, only that it was not the usual performance and I have no other objective way of measuring my mental performance.) I cannot realisitcally blame it all on Piracetam, because it may possibly be something else, but I cannot think of anything else that could cause this. Everything else: my diet, friends, success, sleep time, liquid intake etc. has remained stable. While this is not a controlled study, there is strong anecdotal evidence that Piracetam is to blame.

Can Piracetam be incompatible with my 17 year old neurochemistry, is it a negative interaction between Orthomind, Xtend-Life Total Balance and fish oil, did I have too little Alpha-GPC supplemented, or is it just a coincidence? What do you think?

BTW: I did order a standalone Alpha-GPC supplement just in case. If even with extra Alpha-GPC I still feel this way, I am definitely interrupting my adventure with this nootropic.

[LifeMirage]

I have been taking 4.375 mg of Piracetam in conjunction with 350 mg of Alpha GPC for the past three days and I have to say it seems to have affected me negatively. I have felt unusually tired both mentally and physically, mentally sluggish and sometimes even confused over small things. I even lost 33 points on an IQ test I took the other day, I previously had a score of 139 and now I was down to 106. (I'm not claiming that IQ tests are stable or accurate, only that it was not the usual performance and I have no other objective way of measuring my mental performance.) I cannot realisitcally blame it all on Piracetam, because it may possibly be something else, but I cannot think of anything else that could cause this. Everything else: my diet, friends, success, sleep time, liquid intake etc. has remained stable. While this is not a controlled study, there is strong anecdotal evidence that Piracetam is to blame.

Can Piracetam be incompatible with my 17 year old neurochemistry, is it a negative interaction between Orthomind, Xtend-Life Total Balance and fish oil, did I have too little Alpha-GPC supplemented, or is it just a coincidence? What do you think?

BTW: I did order a standalone Alpha-GPC supplement just in case. If even with extra Alpha-GPC I still feel this way, I am definitely interrupting my adventure with this nootropic.

I'm not surprised. If you take a bunch of new different nootropics it can overwhelm the brain and slow it down for a while. Its better to try 1 at time for a month before trying another, especially if you are 17.

You may want to try again at far lower doses, these are drugs, they are tools that can help you if you can learn how to use them.

Also a real IQ test which costs $300-500 and takes 8-10 hours conducted by professional. Any other IQ test is not accurate and I would not even call it an IQ test.

Edited by LifeMirage, 12 May 2005 - 04:06 AM.

[exigentsky]

Well, I'm currently not taking other Nootropics apart from Ortho-Mind and the Piracetam/Alpha-GPC combo. I actually had no problems taking Ortho-Mind at a dose of 2 capsules (most effective for me) and in fact I felt a subtle improvement in my ability to concentrate and stay alert.

I read on AOR's website that Alpha-GPC, and Piracetam were synergistic with each other and so I would be suprised if this caused a negative interaction.

The only thing left that could realistically cause a negative effect with Piracetam is Xtend-Life's Total Balance, but that seems odd since it's just a multi-nutrient supplement.

I always understood that an attack dose of Piracetam was recommended, something like 800 mg every hour for 6 hours. This is why I took a higher dose than usual, but I plan to drop to something like 2-3 and see how that is.

And yeah, I know online IQ tests don't count for much, but it was just a quick way for me to evaluate my mental performance.

So putting everything else aside, what do you think is causing the problems? Here are my hypotheses:

1. low quality and contaminated manufacturer
2. inadequate Choline to Piracetam ratio
3. far too high doses for my age
4. inefficiency in young people
5. personal incompatibility between my brain chemistry and the drug
6. symptroms are the result of an unrelated and unaccounted for factor

But, I'm really in a world of confusion right now and it's not helping that I brought 2 bottles... (120 capsules in total)

[enemy]

Go back to baseline and start the process over using 50% of your original dosage.

[scottl]

"I always understood that an attack dose of Piracetam was recommended, something like 800 mg every hour for 6 hours."

The purpose of an attack dose is to experience the effects of a supplement faster e.g. to see more clearly then with a smaller dose what the response of your body is, etc. In your case this turned out not to be a good idea, which a priori is not a shocking thing to find out for a 17 year old.

"You may want to try again at far lower doses"

Lifemirage has given you the answer, so why theorize all kinds of things including:

"1. low quality and contaminated manufacturer"

Really. The effect of our former guest lingers.

[exigentsky]

""1. low quality and contaminated manufacturer"

Really. The effect of our former guest lingers."

Hey, it's 1 hypothesis out of 6, why dwell on it? I have nothing against Smi2le, in fact, I think they're great, but I tried to list as many possibilities as I could think of. The order they are in is arbitary and only used for convenience.

I've taken Life Mirage's advice and tommorow I will have a single dose of 1250 mg. I will observe the effects using this regimen and the following day, I will also supplement 410 mg of Alpha-GPC just in case.

But, I still have one more question, should I split up each 625 mg dose or take it all at once? What is best?

[scottl]

Split the dose.

[exigentsky]

I'll try 1250 mg fist just to be safe. (don't want to be slow for a test) Then I'll try 1875 mg. (about half the dose)

[LifeMirage]

I always understood that an attack dose of Piracetam was recommended, something like 800 mg every hour for 6 hours. This is why I took a higher dose than usual, but I plan to drop to something like 2-3 and see how that is.

While I have made this recommendation to a few people, it was based on several factors. Usually when taken by itself and for those 25 or older.

So putting everything else aside, what do you think is causing the problems? Here are my hypotheses:

1. low quality and contaminated manufacturer
2. inadequate Choline to Piracetam ratio
3. far too high doses for my age
4. inefficiency in young people
5. personal incompatibility between my brain chemistry and the drug
6. symptoms are the result of an unrelated and unaccounted for factor

1. Rare but within the realms of possibility.
2. No.
3. Yes.
4. No.
5. Possible but more realistic, the dose was incompatible rather than the compound.
6. 4 weeks is the best time frame to gauge a new Nootropic.

[exigentsky]

I'm really suprised that you do not think #2 could be an issue, from what I understand some people have headaches, mild depression or other problems if they take high doses of Piracetam without Choline or Lecithin supplementation. I would appreciate more details.

"6. 4 weeks is the best time frame to gauge a new Nootropic. "

I have about enough capsules to last me a month, that should be sufficient. I will keep you guys updated. However, I am dissapointed that my first dabble in nootropics has been such a disaster, hopefully with time and experience I will find what works best for me.

In all of this, 1 thing is clear, more than 3 capsules of 625 mg of Piracetam is way too much for me.

BTW: In terms of a Choline supplement for Piracetam, what is better, Lecithin or Alpha-GPC?

[LifeMirage]

I'm really suprised that you do not think #2 could be an issue, from what I understand some people have headaches, mild depression or other problems if they take high doses of Piracetam without Choline or Lecithin supplementation. I would appreciate more details.

If you were taking no choline supplements I would agree, but in your case you were getting some choline.

"6. 4 weeks is the best time frame to gauge a new Nootropic. "

I have about enough capsules to last me a month, that should be sufficient. I will keep you guys updated. However, I am dissapointed that my first dabble in nootropics has been such a disaster, hopefully with time and experience I will find what works best for me.

In all of this, 1 thing is clear, more than 3 capsules of 625 mg of Piracetam is way too much for me.

BTW: In terms of a Choline supplement for Piracetam, what is better, Lecithin or Alpha-GPC?

Lecithin should not be taken in my opinion by anyone.

As far as ACh precursors go (more or less):

Phosphatidylcholine, Choline (Citrate), DMAE, DEANOL, Centrophenoxine, Citicoline, Alpha GlycerylPhosPhorylCholine.

GH3 stable Procaine also works but there is little info on it compared to other ACh precursors.

While I think CDP-Choline is the best (as far as most researched, GPC probably is stronger and usually cheaper.)

[exigentsky]

Thank you fro all the informaton.

I have one more question though, can Piracetam be addictive or will rapidly stopping the taking of Piracetam cause a drop in mental performance below normal? I read on Google Groups that some think the latter may be the case, but there is a lot of BS on there too, so I really don't know what to think.

BTW: Why do you think Lecithin is so bad, is it unsafe or just ineffective?

[chelovd]

Funny title of this thread, exigentsky
Certainly belies your eloquence & smartness in your comments.
Your statement: "I have felt unusually tired both mentally and physically, mentally sluggish and sometimes even confused over small things" could have been precisely my words when I started. Life Mirage is probably right, a bunch of nootropics for a starter may overwhelm the brain. Takes time to find out what dossages are right for each person.

[LifeMirage]

Thank you for all the information.

I have one more question though, can Piracetam be addictive or will rapidly stopping the taking of Piracetam cause a drop in mental performance below normal? I read on Google Groups that some think the latter may be the case, but there is a lot of BS on there too, so I really don't know what to think.

Piracetam is not addictive and while you may feel a drop of mental abilities, but it is no more than you were before.

BTW: Why do you think Lecithin is so bad, is it unsafe or just ineffective?

Both.

[exigentsky]

",but it is no more than you were before."

That's great to hear, that was one of my prime worries. Imagining that a smart drug would make me smarter than my natural ability only to cause a drop in function below average gives me nightmares.

[LifeMirage]

Read Nootropic Q/A.

Yours In Health

[andr3as]

Piracetam effects are not simple to understand and depend on several factors.
I have used it for 3 years now and more than once I have felt really weird and stupid mostly because of piracetam is sometimes hard to adapt. Piracetam is highly mental drug and it's effects on learning is not so evident always. I do believe it effects can be both good and bad. Itself piracetam has almost no toxicity even at large quantities but it may enhance some negative aspects of other chems.

[eclypz]

I too have at times felt quite squirrely because of piracetam. Aniracetam is much worse for that, but for the most part pira will do that too. It sometimes feels anticholinergic to be honest.

[scottl]

"It sometimes feels anticholinergic"

I'm not clear on the exact mechanism, but...one needs more choline taking racetams as "the body appears to use up choline faster".

Aniracetam is something different. Apparently different people react differently, but there are a disturbing number of reports of....LOL searching Avant I found your post Eclypz of "brain fog" and turocati posting "First, I seem to be a little more absentminded"...

[enemy]

I would say the fat-soluble versus water-soluble characteristic is at work here. That's just a feeling, not based upon anything except intuition.

[seeker]

LifeMirage,
Why would you not recommend lecithin to anyone? Is it somehow bad/toxic or is it more of a matter of its being far less effective than other choline formulations

I'm finishing off my first bottle of Now's 19 grain gelcaps and have noticed no bad effects. It does seem to offer some prevention, albeit incomplete, from 'tam headaches.

While more advanced choline preparations may indeed be superior, the price differences are prohibitive for those in an income slump. Comparing relatively same-size bottles, the price for lecithin was $4.60. Twin Labs' Super Choline cost more than $25 and CDP-Choline even more.

Here's the bottom line question: If lecithin is all one can afford, is it better than nothing?

[omega_rage]

Piracetam has also had this effect on me, and I find it probably no coincidence that I am also a young user myself (being 20, started at 19). Having this experience, I decided to overlook the substance thinking that it probably might have some negative long-term effect while experimenting with it at such an age (these drugs were designed with the elderly in mind, pun intended).

[johnmk]

Interestingly, I am in my mid 20's and Piracetam doesn't really seem to do much for me. I have tried very large doses as well. My jury is still out on piracetam however, I wish to experiment some more at some point in time. Good God, I have tons of the stuff.

[LifeMirage]

LifeMirage,
Why would you not recommend lecithin to anyone? Is it somehow bad/toxic or is it more of a matter of its being far less effective than other choline formulations

I'm finishing off my first bottle of Now's 19 grain gelcaps and have noticed no bad effects. It does seem to offer some prevention, albeit incomplete, from 'tam headaches.

While more advanced choline preparations may indeed be superior, the price differences are prohibitive for those in an income slump. Comparing relatively same-size bottles, the price for lecithin was $4.60. Twin Labs' Super Choline cost more than $25 and CDP-Choline even more.

Here's the bottom line question: If lecithin is all one can afford, is it better than nothing?

Lecithin is a blend of Fats and Phospholipids, the main purpose of taking it is to get a fair dose of choline from the Phosphatidylcholine (PC) its contain due to its high fat content not only is it not very effective, but if not refrigerated can easily oxidize. If your diet contains little PC or choline I can see where it can provide some benefit but I would rather at the least recommend a PC complex which is still pretty inexpensive yet provides more meaning doses of PC and less fat.

[REGIMEN]

I got a bottle of "liquid lecithin" by NOWfoods a little while ago...
darn, there goes $4 on what was supposed to be a distillation of the wondrous choline lending properties that people on this forum were exalting grain lecithin for over the last few months.

LifeMirage,
(maybe not the best place to post this and I apologize to others who feel a tender ownership for this thread and hold an orthodox grip on the sanctity of its relevance quotient...just poking fun )
I'm considering on either adding a racetam or changing my ALCAR to ALCARginate. I take aniracetam, alphaGPC, ALA, picamilon, l-carnosine, and fishoil on a regualr basis and see a potential for more altitude in motivation, verbal acuity(speed of vocalization, fluidity, always forget "that one word...!"), and memory(learned imprinting for recall).

Question:
Are there any tutorials on the vocabulary for describing cognitive parameters that define such things as language, memory, "creativity"? ...basic terminology and in-depth descriptions that could educate me so that when I say "I need help with my memory" I can dissect to the exact relevant and definitive layer of meaning in a hopefully more efficient and clarifying communication?

[wannafulfill]

Other have posted in this thread that piracetam did little for them.

I thought I would support that opinion. I am 22 and get no noticeble effects from piracetam. I have tried several different dosing protocols, including one based on a recommendation to take it every hour. No luck for me.

[exigentsky]

"I thought I would support that opinion. I am 22 and get no noticeble effects from piracetam. I have tried several different dosing protocols, including one based on a recommendation to take it every hour. No luck for me."

I understand that it produced no noticeable improvements, but you really did not feel ANY difference at any of your protocols?

[enemy]

If piracetam doesn't do the trick, try oxi- or ani- or nefir- or pramir-.

[LifeMirage]

Other have posted in this thread that piracetam did little for them.

I thought I would support that opinion. I am 22 and get no noticeble effects from piracetam. I have tried several different dosing protocols, including one based on a recommendation to take it every hour. No luck for me.

Even if you did not feel a difference I would still take it to reduce age related damage/changes to your brain, but thats just me. Many young people seem to feel an effect from Pyritinol more than any other smart drug by the way.