20 replies to this topic

[Kyran]

Hello, I'm new to the nootropic world, having never experimented with a stack myself. Although I have been interested and read casually about the subject for several months now. What I'm looking for is a good supplement which will give a tangible increase in motivation, focus, energy, creativity, etc. I'm currently trying to study computer science on my own (university is expensive) and I'm getting into audio DSP coding, so I need to read fairly in-depth mathematics and programming books on a regular basis. I'm looking for a bump in motivation and focus to keep me on track during long study sessions and of course anything that would help with the efficacy of studying in terms of memory or comprehension would be greatly welcomed. I'm also a musician which, along with programming, requires a fairly large degree of creativity. so anything that helps with that would be awesome as well.

I'm looking for one or two supplements that will give me some measurable results on a budget. Taking into account the price of bulk powder and also the availability of a given substance in North America (Canada more specifically), what would be the best choice for self-directed learning?

Is Piracetam and Choline Bitartrate still the standard induction into nootropics? I've also read a bit about Noopept which has a very attractive price. What about Phenylpiracetam? Is another racetam better suited, or perhaps some other supplement I'm not aware of?

Hopefully someone can suggest something that fits my needs.

Thank you!

[Kyran]

Anyone?

[Heh]

Maybe Pramiracetam.

[majkinetor]

Hidergine + choline + Piracetam is perfect for start (~ 5E / mo )

[Guardian4981]

Tyrosine is the most basic supplement for motivation and focus, just make sure to cycle it and not take huge doses. Also make sure to take in am as to avoid issues with falling asleep.

[Kyran]

Thanks for the advice so far.

Tyrosine seems like a good option, it's on Amazon for $9.45 for 120 caps at 500mg.

Can anyone compare piracetam vs noopept? I'm thinking about getting one of the two as well. Noopept is available at newstarnootropics.com for what seems like a good price. It seems like cheap piracetam has become much harder to find.

The issue is, I'm not exactly sure what an effective daily dose would be. Obviously the perfect dose will be different for each person depending on physiology and what they'd like to get out, and so some experimentation will be required. But can someone give me a ballpark daily dose for piracetam and noopept? I've read threads advocating much larger than usual doses of piracetam.

Hopefully I'll be able to weigh the cost per month of each of these, as well as their individual strengths and weaknesses to make a decision.

Any links to cheap sources for any of the three above would be greately appreciated. I'd be open to other cost effective alternatives as well.

Cheers!

[Kyran]

Bump for dosages and/or source links?

[majkinetor]

Piracetam is in use for more then 50 years and by millions of people. Noopet is not. Enough said.

If you want more then suggested, I would go with CoQ10/idebenone and fish oil rather then some new nootropics.

[Kyran]

Yeah piracetam has a much better proven track record. But I'm having a rough time finding it for a good price. It's hard to quantify when I'm unsure of the dosage I'd need.

The benefit of Noopept is mainly the attractive price. Seems like a good foray into nootropic exploration without too much investment.

If I could find piracetam for the same price per day I'd probably go with that.


I'm already gonna have to pick up some fish oil for some joint problems but I'll look into the CoQ10 supps as well.

[rg8032]

Piracetam has got to be one of the cheapest supplements I have come across. When I first started experimenting, I purchased a pound (454g - way too much) for $50! Typically suggested doses start at 800mg 1-3 times daily. Some find they need more and others less. Most people report attenuation of negative effects and some report an increase of effect if a second chemical is incorporated into the regime - a choline compound (e.g. the most popular: choline, CDP-choline, and Alpha-GPC) is incorporated as well. You probably already know that.

I would caution you to not raise your hopes without cause. Some people are non-responders and others find the benefits subtle or not what they expected. Motivation is something with which drugs (i.e. supplements, pharmaceuticals, herbs, etc.) do not seem to reliably help. Amphetamine is a drug that is often considered to be motivating, but if the motivation to, say, study is not already present, you are more likely to end up organizing your underwear than hitting the books.

Diet can play a large role in your ability to function optimally. You probably do not want to hear this, but I have found that improving my diet has had a larger effect on my general health, sense of well-being, and cognition/memory than any drug I have tried. The thing that I found most helpful was an elimination diet. I avoided it for years because it sounded like a potentially-hokey pain-in-the-butt.

A word to the wise: your health is more precious than anything; be careful with it. Many of these substances look very appealing, but the fact is that there are some about which we know very little. Knowledge of the long-term effects of many substances can be sparse. Every time you consume a drug, you are gambling. Continue to inform yourself - read, read, read - and the chances of making a disastrous blunder are reduced. Cultivate a scientific mind, one filled with doubt and objectivity. Hope I am not putting too fine a point on things.

Nootropics have their place, but they are no panacea and, most would agree, are not wonder drugs. If used responsibly, drugs in this category typically seem very safe as far as we know. I wish you luck in the future.

[boff]

What rg8032 said. First make sure you are eating well (tried paleo?), sleeping well (7+ hours) and exercising well (mix cardio/resistance 3+ times a week). Use that as your base and build from there.

[james1589]

I'm in Canada as well and use a recieving house to cut down on shipping and avoid delays or other problems at the border.

I don't know if this could work for you ( close enough? ) but if it does I would highly recommend it.

[noot_in_the_sky]

Here is something to concider, noopept has been know to cause a drop in libido. How it does this I don't know, but may be doing more damage then good(search noopept and libido in the forum). So you may want to think about taking other racetams.

For me, aniracetam did gave me an increase in motivation to do and learn new thing( new languge & play the piano). The down site is that this seem to diminish after 3 to 4 days of use(750mg 2x per day).

Pramiracetam also helps to increase motivation, but it seems to be more for philosophical thinking, especially around ~300mg dose(2x/day).

Piracetam never tried but some suggest to use 4.8g per dose(9.6g/day). Here
http://www.longecity...-48-grams-dose/

Selegilene is something other people have use to help them increase their motivation. Downside is it takes time to for the effects to show and the legal statutes it hold in some countries(1 to 2.5mg per day).

One of the cheapest suppliers is Sun Nootropics not including shipping.
Piracetam................2kg............66.12
Aniracetam.............1kg............90.92
Pramiracetam.............500g......338.86

You can find other suppliers in this list maintain by one of our member, isochroma-reborn:
http://users4.jabry....etam Prices.htm

[chung_pao]

I'll outline a plan with the most popular and IMO effective ways to increase your motivation and focus.
Please save your money, unless you're into experimenting for the pleasure of it, and follow these guidelines:

1. Diet. You build your brain and body day by day with what you eat. Feeling cognitive decline or impairment? You might need more essential fatty acids and cholesterol (the actual constituents of the brain). Want to get rid of fat? Stop eating what results in fat synthesis (excess fatty acids and carbs).
Build the body you want through diet.
Suggestions: Paleo, Slow-carb, A simple diet of veggies, eggs and meat will suffice. Don't forget the omega-3s.

2. Exercise. It's a given. But the important thing to maintaining high focus and motivation is to keep your body-fat low. Not building muscle.

3. Sleep. You can't get around this need. You need restful sleep, or your body will not work. No drug can correct this.

4. Consider the Nootropics that have been proven effective and provides the positive conditioning that keeps beginners coming back here, looking for more:
*Racetams. We respond differently to these and I can't tell which will be most effective for you.
I barely react to aniracetam and oxiracetam, while others swear by them. Piracetam always works for me. The increase in excitatory activity and cognitive function is significant.
I suggest buying a little of each of Ani, Prami and Pir, and finding your favourite.
*Caffeine and L-theanine. These are extremely popular and increase motivation and focus.
*Modafinil. A pretty hardcore motivator. Can be very addictive. First time users often report sitting down to concentrate on their work and just feeling 5+ hours fly by in an instant. Timed doses are important, since you probably won't sleep for 12-15 hours after dosing.
*CILTP. A stack of forskolin, artichoke and caffeine. This combination definitely increases motivation and focus, but the LTP aspect of it is controversial. It's worth a try if you want to experiment.

Tyrosine will most likely not aid a lot. It's effective a few times, but you become tolerant quickly. It can also mess really bad with your neurotransmitter synthesis enzymes (a balanced amino acid intake is required) and cause terrible anxiety.

Edited by chung_pao, 22 May 2013 - 03:43 PM.

[majkinetor]

Stop eating what results in fat synthesis (excess fatty acids and carbs).

Excess ? There is no such thing. If you eat right, appetite center works correctly.
There is no such thing as excess fatty acids, only excess carbs. Paleo is fad, the only scientific way to do things is low carb (no slow carb, thats Timohty Ferris BS).

You don't need to exercise for focus. Exercise promotes other aspects of brain.

About sleep, that is true but nobody knows exactly what time is enough - some say 6, some 8, who knows. Some drugs obviously make a difference in your capacity for night maintenance.

[Kyran]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I've been busy lately so I haven't had time to check in.

First I'll address some of the lifestyle change suggestions. I exercise several times a week, following a hybrid strength/hypertrophy hypertrophy regimen. I'm a fairly typical ectomorph type, very low body fat, so weight loss is actually relatively opposed to my goals. But I have found exercise to reduce brain fog and improve mental performance. I'm not sure whether this is a direct effect or due to the better sleep I experience after a workout. I sleep quite a bit, almost an excessive amount sometimes. I've always needed a lot of sleep since I was a child and never really tapered off as I hit adulthood (Should have mentioned earlier, I'm 23). I find exercise really improves the quality of my sleep which is more important than the quantity. I can sleep 7 hours after a workout and feel much better the next day than sleeping 12 hours with no exercise. Another thing I've found useful is smart alarm apps like Sleep Cycle which wake you up in between deep sleep cycles.

Regarding diet, there's always room for improvement. I'd consider cutting carbs but as I mentioned before, my metabolism is quite high so I depend on those extra calories to keep me alive. Ideally I'd just be eating steak and vegetables all day, but financially and practically speaking, the starchy carbs kind of glue my diet together. It's not as bad as it could be, I very very rarely eat any junk food. I eat rice a lot as well as a lot of cereal grains, and usually bread and peanut butter every day as a post-workout meal. Cleaning up the diet is always something I have in the back of my mind. I've started to appreciate good food a lot more since starting to workout, since there's a noticeable synergistic effect with the two. Healthy food now tastes better than junk food since I've gotten into shape.

I think I could definitely benefit from some omega fats. As I mentioned earlier, I'll be picking some up shortly to help with my knee problems so hopefully there's some cognitive benefit as well.

I was pretty happy to see the Sun Nootropic link for piracetam at such a great price. Exactly what I needed, thank you. I've got a friend interested as well so we might go halfers on a Kg. I feel much safer going with the tried and tested workhorse racetam instead of noopept. 50$ will be enough for ages and if I split it with my friend it becomes really affordable to experiment with. I just bought a keyboard today and I'll be learning piano soon, so it's good to hear piracitam may be helpful with that. Maybe they'll even arrive at the same time if I place my order soon.

I'm in Canada as well and use a recieving house to cut down on shipping and avoid delays or other problems at the border.

I don't know if this could work for you ( close enough? ) but if it does I would highly recommend it.

I tried searching for a receiving house in regards to shipping but google only gave me results about theaters. Any clarification on this part?

Thanks all!

[Ultravioletbllc]

Try this 180 mg pramiracetam with 250 mg cdp choline , folic acid @ 400 mcg once daily , sulbutiamine 300-900 mg am first two weeks of every month cycled with 2 weeks l dopa , and 30 mg noopept with each pram dose (assuming you will dose twice daily ) , 12.5 mg p-5-p, 500 -800 mg dlpa or n acetyl l tyrosine every am

Take 50-150 mg l dopa daily preferably in the am with either dlpa and or tyrosine the p5p and the folic acid all together with the cdp choline there's a nice like dopaminergic/racetam stack if I were serious about it I'd look into daily inositol a high quality magnesium , l theanine , and acetyl l carnitine with no lipoic acid! That would supra charge the dopamine machine

As would a little cup of green tea too wash it all down tea has so many dopaminergic synergistically acting compounds

[Kyran]

Oh I also forgot to ask, is there a good place for cheap choline? It seems choline bitartrate is usually the cheapest that I've seen. I'm sure someone knows of a place selling them for lower than I've found. Is there a suggested dose or do I just scale up until I don't experience headaches?

[rg8032]

Be wary of l-DOPA. In a way, supplements have become distinct from drugs due to legislation. Keep in mind that anything with a drug-like effect is a drug. This includes the vast majority of supplements — including nootropics. This is neither bad nor good.

Regarding l-DOPA: read about its use in Parkinson's patients, read about some of the experiences others have had with the substances, just read some high-quality information. It can be off-putting.

Also worth noting, people typically associate dopamine with a boosted mood and an alert feeling due to well-known effects from dopamine-affecting drugs (e.g. cocaine, amphetamine, etc.). The dopamine-mediated effects arise not from unilaterally boosted dopamine, but due more to a change in the pattern of dopamine signaling. In other words, the 'positive' dopamine-mediated effects of cocaine arise when dopamine is affected in a particular manner — when dopamine activity in certain parts of the brain is enhanced . Many people who take something like l-DOPA will tell you first hand that increasing dopamine levels unilaterally is not necessarily pleasant. [Anecdote alert] I stupidly experimented with l-DOPA and it was not pleasant. Your mileage may vary.

As far as I am concerned, you should be free to put whatever you want into your body. With this freedom comes pitfalls. Please, have the wisdom to do your due diligence. Try to remain objective and doubt every claim you hear. Learn to discriminate fact from crap — it is not always as easy as it sounds. Gain an understanding of the drug before you consume it. If an understanding of the drug's studied mechanisms is beyond your grasp, consider aborting. If you choose to persevere, at least gain an understanding of the potential side effects and interactions. Certain side effects and interactions can be fatal or can have long-lasting negative consequences.

Sorry to be such a downer. I believe that the cavalier attitude displayed by some people when they slap the blinders on and just start slamming cocktails of frequently eyeball-dosed drugs demonstrates naiveté. These same people proliferate misinformation and parade opinion as fact; I find these acts reprehensible.

I sincerely hope you find that for which you are looking. I think piracetam is an excellent first step. I would also like to recommend that you consider purchasing a small supply of as many different racetams as you can get and see which work best for you. My reactions are markedly different to the different racetams and this jives with the experience of most people. If you are interested in noopept, take note that I have heard others making nebulous comments about potential negative aspects. You may want to look into the veracity of that idea.

(edit)
Regarding choline:
Many report depression if doses of choline or acetylcholine-affecting substances are too high. What constitutes a too-high dose can be wildly different from person to person. I have seen doses of choline salts as low as 100mg and as high as 4 grams. Some people claim to not need choline at all. Starting low and increasing dosage as required is oftentimes a safe bet.

Edited by rg8032, 28 May 2013 - 04:08 AM.

[Kyran]

Thanks for the headsup. I'm definitely not one to start throwing random things in my body. If I have to slow down my sentence to pronounce something, I probably won't eat it. I research everything pretty thoroughly before going through with it. Gonna try to keep things simple, at least for now.

I would like to get a sampler of racetams to see which are most effective but it seems the price breaks are only available in bulk orders. I figured it was best to just go with the classic piracetam and maybe experiment with the other racetams down the road once I have a baseline established.

[noot_in_the_sky]

It would be a good idea if vendors started selling a small sample stack of all the racetams for people to try. Unfortunately, the only place that I see selling small size is Health Supplements Wholesalers


Prices
Oxi...............10g for $11.35
Ani...............10g for $8.25
Prami.............1g for $3.31