8 replies to this topic

[Limburger]

For people like myself with a family history of heart disease, choline supplementation might not be advisable


"Red meat chemical 'damages heart', say US scientists"

"First carnitine, now lecithin linked to heart disease"

Apparently, the metabolism of carnitine by some types of intestinal flora result in the production and elevated serum levels of a compound strongly correlated with increased risk for atherosclerosis and heart disease.

Unfortunately, using racetams without choline supplementation would be counterproductive for many people.


I wish I had a good enough understanding of the absorption mechanics of the various forms of supplemental choline to predict which forms would be less likely to reach the large intestine. Other non-parenteral means of administration might also be an option for some of them.

Anybody better able to unpack these studies in the context of supplementary ALCAR, alpha GPC choline, etc.?

[theblob]

1. Here is the study (OD 25 APRIL 2013): http://www.nejm.org/...6/NEJMoa1109400
2. The study was conducted on" healthy individuals" through "3 years follow-up". Okay.
3. There is no details about the general diet of these "healthy individuals"; seems like the good old western fatty diet.
4. I wonder what kind of results we could have with mediterranean diet, or paleo-diet. Indeed, the intestinal bacterial flore changes with the diet, and also the by-products of many food and molecules.
5. This is all about physiological and chemical interactions at different levels, it's difficult to conclude anything with these kind of studies on specific molecules.
6. Heart diseases... may be related to some balance between different molecules, a bit like the omega 3 - 6 - 9 balance. ; especially regarding arterial clots, vascular degeneration...

[theblob]

so, 7. Conclusion: eat mediterranean, add omega 3, vitamin D, and you should be able to eat choline for your racetams without the atherosclerosis risk. Well, only if you're in good shape.

even (interesting) the study author said: "“Follow a diet that’s low in fat,” he recommends." - in the Press release.

but then he says to eat less of "“animal products such as meat, eggs, cheese, liver, certain fatty fish – these are all high sources of this pre-cursor that can lead to heart disease.”" - which is a fundamentally big mistake for a clinician lol regarding the topic.. ^^

Besides, It is not a wonder that it is strongly recommended to eat "biological / natural" eggs, containing omega 3. ...and also a lot of phosphatidylcholine.

Edited by theblob, 20 May 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[zorba990]

http://m.ajcn.nutrit...t/82/1/111.full

[Erebus]

Hmmmm.... Although the NEJM study linked-to above is very new, this is not a new discovery. The same research group published a rat study on the same topic about a year and a half ago.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3086762/

Worth mentioning is the fact that the authors claim their "results suggest that an appropriately designed probiotic intervention may serve as a therapeutic strategy for CVD. Interestingly, production of TMAO can be altered by probiotic administration." (And they then cite this study.)

I wonder if the anti-hypercholesterolemic/anti-atherosclerotic probiotics L.Reuteri and L.Plantarum could help reduce TMAO levels. In any case, I certainly look forward to more research on this topic.

[Limburger]

Thanks for the replies--I a lot of good information here. I am particularly surprised at the efficacy of probiotic intervention. Given that intestinal bacteria populations are essentially fixed after age four, barring massive antibiotic interventions, it's unusual that probiotics would exert a positive effect on TMAO production. Usually they are believed to be beneficial as a result of their communication (exchange of genetic material) with the established population, as in the studies finding a reduction in inflammation or improvements in immune function. I wonder what the mechanism might be...

[zorba990]

from
http://www.heartfixer.com/CHC%20-%20Treatments%20Available.htmfrom

Phosphatidylcholine Therapy - Phosphatidylcholine (specifically 1,2-dilinolenyphosphatidylcholine) is the most effective anti-atherosclerotic therapy in cardiovascular medicine. This molecule, which we will refer to as essential phospholipid or PC, stimulates the enzymes of reverse cholesterol transport, promoting the removal of excess cholesterol from the cells of our body, including the cells that line our arteries. PC has been shown to improve blood flow and reduce symptoms in humans with narrowed arteries, and to anatomically reverse atherosclerotic narrowings in animals and in humans. Please click for much more information.

So certainly opinions vary.

[blood]

Phosphatidylcholine Therapy - Phosphatidylcholine (specifically 1,2-dilinolenyphosphatidylcholine) is the most effective anti-atherosclerotic therapy in cardiovascular medicine

This is very interesting. The atherosclerosis research was done with "PPC", which apparently is a super-concentrated lecithin, referred to as "polyenylphosphatidylcholine", which contains a very high proportion of dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine (DLPC) which is believed to be the active ingredient.

The granular lecithin or phosphatidyl choline caps you can buy in a health food shop apparently contain DLPC only in trace amounts.

PPC seems to be marketed under different names - Essentiale, PhosChol (about 50% DLPC), Hepatapro (Lef's product).

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Essentiale

Aside from the CVS benefits, it has interesting, beneficial effects on the liver. A small dose of 300mg/day suppressed liver dysfunction in body builders on steroids:

http://www.ergo-log....tialeforte.html

Supplement protects steroids users’ livers

A preparation made by Natterman, which supposedly protects the liver and which chemical athletes are using more and more often: Greek researchers refer to it in their study as compound N. The researchers, at Thessaly University, set up an experiment to determine whether compound N really works.

After a bit of surfing we worked out that Compound N is Essentiale forte.

A packet contains a couple of dozen capsules, each of which contains 300 mg of polyene phosphatidylcholine. This is choline-phosphoric acid with two unsaturated fatty acids attached, usually linoleic acid. It probably resembles the phosphatidylcholine found in soya [**This I think is not entirely correct].

In addition, each capsule contains 6 mg of vitamin B1, 6 mg of vitamin B2, 6 mg of vitamin B6, 6 mcg of vitamin B12, 30 mg of nicotinamide and 6 mg of vitamin E.

The Greeks, who by the way have also done research on the psychological effects of anabolic steroids, did an experiment with three hundred and twenty athletes. Half of them, one hundred and sixty athletes, used steroids. Of these chemical athletes, the researchers gave forty Essentiale forte: two capsules a day taken with food.

All of the chemical athletes took steroids and the researchers monitored them for eight weeks. The list below gives you an idea of what the Greek bodybuilders were using.

Yes, the list puzzled us too. Quinbolone? [An enol-ether of boldenone – Ed.] Oxabolone? [Nandrolone with a hydroxyl group on C4 – Ed.] Are these products still on the market? And where are the 'new' designer steroids? Surely athletes in Greece use products like 1-Test and Madol too?

Still.

During the eight-week period the researchers measured the athletes’ concentrations of the following enzymes: aspartate aminotransferase (AST/SGOT), alanine aminotransferase (ALT/SGPT), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), alkaline phosphatase (ALP), gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (gamma-GT) and creatine kinase (CK).

The more enzymes in the blood, the harder a time the liver is having.

The figure below shows what happened to the liver enzyme concentrations. Group A = chemical athletes who took Essentiale forte as well. Group B = chemical athletes who did not take a liver-protection supplement. Group C = ‘natural’ athletes.

The researchers are not sure how phosphatidylcholine and vitamins protect steroids users’ livers. They suspect that the mixture strengthens the membranes of the liver cells. The livers of steroids users have to work hard to break down all the extra substances they are subjected to. And as a result the liver cells ‘cut down’ on metabolising fats. The liver gets fattier because the liver cells are no longer burning fat well [beta-oxidation – Ed.] and maintenance of the cell membranes made up of fatty acid chains gets neglected. The supplement helps the liver cells to perform these functions.

Sounds attractive, but to be honest we find it difficult to believe that simply taking vitamin B pills and lecithin capsules can protect steroids users’ livers. And we’re probably not the only ones who are sceptical. Reading between the lines you can also see that the Greeks had trouble getting their study published.

That’s why they use long-winded sentences like: "the results from our cohort of similarly exercising individuals suggest that polyunsaturated phospholipids in combination with vitamins of the B complex protect hepatic cells from AAS-induced damage." According to the Greeks Compound N is not a supplement but "a controlled pharmaceutical agent".

But still. It’s not totally impossible that the Greeks have discovered something that will enable thousands of steroids users to juice more safely.

Another interesting liver study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11866479

Dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine is responsible for the beneficial effects of polyenylphosphatidylcholine on ethanol-induced mitochondrial injury in rats.

Navder KP, Lieber CS.

Source

Alcohol Research and Treatment Center, Bronx Veterans Affairs Medical Center and Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, New York 10468, USA.

Abstract

Chronic ethanol consumption depletes phosphatidylcholines (PC) in membranes and hepatic mitochondria are an early target of this toxicity. Our previous studies showed that soybean-derived polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC), attenuated mitochondrial liver injury. Since dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine (DLPC) is the major component of PPC, we assessed whether it is responsible for the protection of PPC. Forty-two male rats were fed the following liquid diets for 8 weeks: Control; Control with DLPC (1.5 g/1000 Calories (Cal); Alcohol (36% of Cal); Alcohol with DLPC (1.5 g/1000 Cal) and Alcohol with PPC (3 g/1000 Cal). As expected, ethanol feeding diminished the capacity of hepatic mitochondria to oxidize glutamate and palmitoyl-1-carnitine, and also decreased the activity of mitochondrial cytochrome oxidase. These effects were equally prevented by either PPC or DLPC. In conclusion, DLPC fully reproduced PPC's protective action and may be effective in the prevention or delay of more severe liver damage.

PMID: 11866479

I was curious about how much DLPC is found in the lecithin granules you can buy on iherb etc.

This is all I found:

http://www.scienceda...10525131703.htm

Lecithin Component May Reduce Fatty Liver, Improve Insulin Sensitivity

May 25, 2011 — A natural product called DLPC (dilauroyl phosphatidylcholine) increases sensitivity to insulin and reduces fatty liver in mice, leading Baylor College of Medicine researchers to believe it may provide a treatment for prediabetic patients. DLPC is an unusual phospholipid and a trace component of the dietary supplement lecithin.

[zorba990]

Here's Bluebonnets version about 1/3 ppc http://www.iherb.com...-Softgels/12727 but doesn't seem to identify the same component as this http://www.iherb.com...-Softgels/39625

Identifying two of the most powerful heart supplements as causing harm to same seems suspicious at this point.

Edited by zorba990, 25 May 2013 - 03:37 PM.