13 replies to this topic

[mrd1]

Bacopa Monnieri-

Touted as a anti-anxiety, anti-depression, and pro-memory agent, it has demonstrated effectiveness in all claims! (Examine) But, while this alone would be more than enough to add it to our regime, it also is highly protective and beneficial to neural function. (Examine) But, then one might ask "If it is so amazing why hasn't it taken off!” I believe it is because it takes up to 4 weeks to work best. (Examine) Can you picture anyone being able to patiently take something for a entire four weeks. Of course not, (after taking it once) they assume its a dud then, go reach for a starbucks frappuccino “instant” ! So, lets examine what waits for the patient person who can delay his gratification a few weeks.
Bacopa Monnieri has multiple mechanisms which leads me to believe it is invaluable when trying to improve memory. 1. Bacopa Monnieri extract may be able to increase memory formation by the enzyme Tryptophan Hydroxylase (TPH2) and increasing the expression of the serotonin transporter. 2. After 4 to 6 weeks dendritic intersection and branching points in neurons have been noted to be proliferated. [24] This growth effect occurs in older adult rats, and even younger rats undergoing growth spurts [26] and occurs in areas known to be involved in memory such as the hippocampus [24] and basolateral amygdala. [26][25]
Lets examine what Bacopa Monnieri can do in regards to serotonin. Bacopa Monnieri has been found to increase serotonin in the hippocampus of treated animals. [21][1] At 20-40mg/kg body weight Bacopa Monnieri appeared to increase SERT mRNA expression. [21] Bacopa Monnieri has been found to increase the Serotonin Transporter. [21]
As for Bacopa Monnieri effect on dopamine. While not extreme, I do believe think it is worth of our attention. Treatment with Bacopa Monnieri at 40-80mg/kg bodyweight in rats subject to both acute and chronic stress (to assess Bacopa's adaptogenic effects) found that the depletion of dopamine and serotonin associated with chronic stress did not occur with Bacopa supplementation, although the decrease in noradrenaline was unaffected.[45] This preservation of dopamine levels has been seen with rotenone-induced neurotoxicity, which should normally deplete dopamine but doesn't in the presence of Bacopa Monnieri.[46][44] Since we shall be heavily hitting the dopamine system quite extensively this could very well be invaluable!
While far from a robust body of evidence, one study study measuring hindbrain levels of acetylcholine noted an increase of 110% compared to the control rats [21] I, personally, am not satisfied with this. So, we will work on the acetylcholine system via different interventions. However, the study is still worth noting.
As for neuroprotection, the research speaks for itself. Bacopa has been noted to, in rats, reduce Superoxide Dismutase (SOD) levels by 2.4-fold in the hippocampus at 20mg/kg oral ingestion, without significantly affecting other areas of the brain.[8] This study had measurements at day 7, yet it appears that testing later at 2-3 weeks (coinciding with when memory enhancement is seen in humans) SOD levels, as well as other anti-oxidant enzymes such as glutathione peroxidase and catalase, are increased in the hippocampus as well as other brain regions such as the frontal cortex and striatum.[67]
Lastly, Bacopa Monnieri seems to be able to reduce neuronal information. Bacopa Monnieri has been implicated in reducing neural inflammation associated with aging over a period of three months, and may exert a neurological anti-aging effect.[74] Bacopa Monnieri at 200mg/kg (large dose) was associated with IL-1β and TNF-α being reduced in older age (22% and 25.7% less IL-1β and TNF-α, respectively, in the Bacopa treated groups) and having the elevation associated with aging suppressed in all experimental groups. IFN-γ was not significantly affected. These anti-inflammatory effects have been seen in vitro[75] and is attributed to the steroidal saponins (the bacosides).
To bring it all together, we really have a robust and truly great level of evidence that Bacopa Monnieri may be of great assistance to us through its diverse, as well as, beautiful action on the brain when trying to pursue happiness and learning.

(THX EXAMINE.COM for your amazing body of research for my to intensively review!)

[Godof Smallthings]

I took bacopa for 5 weeks, and had no results. Last time I checked for human clinical trials, there were two, and while both of them showed a certain positive effect, the effect was not very significant, and occurred mostly in women.

Your post reads like an advertisement.

[mrd1]

I took bacopa for 5 weeks, and had no results. Last time I checked for human clinical trials, there were two, and while both of them showed a certain positive effect, the effect was not very significant, and occurred mostly in women.

Your post reads like an advertisement.

"I took bacopa for 5 weeks, and had no results."

-Bacopa takes time to work. Studies that are too short tend to note either lesser or no effects, and studies that take multiple measures note that improvements are much better at 8-12 weeks than they are at 4-6 weeks. (Examine)

-What dosage where you taking?
At 20-40mg/kg bodyweight Bacopa, Bacopa Monnieri appeared to increase SERT mRNA expression, but both the increases in SERT expression, Tryptophan Hydroxylase activity, and serotonin levels appear to decline with age, where rats that are 53 days postnatal do not experience increases in either, whereas 19 and 27 days postnatal still experience increases.[21]

For a 160 pound individual we are talking 500-1000mg. I take 2000mg

"Last time I checked for human clinical trials, there were two,"

-using examines human effect matrix I count 18 studies in humans (http://examine.com/s...acopa Monnieri/)

"the effect was not very significant,"

Although general and requiring a long time to take effect (4-6 weeks), bacopa appears to reliably and effectively improve memory in both healthy persons and during cognitive
decline 75% scientific consensus.

-Note many human studies use very small doses if i am taking 10x the amount how much can that study really tell me?



"and occurred mostly in women."
Mechanism of memory enhancement has not been completely solidified, but appears to be related to either enhancing neuronal transmission (via enhancing dendritic proliferation) or through interactions with the serotonergic system (which then influence acetylcholinergic transmission). These effects do not appear to require cognitive decline or the elderly to work, and thus suggest Bacopa can BENEFIT ALL AGES (Examine)


"Your post reads like an advertisement."
Advertising or advertizing[1][2][3] is a form of communication for marketing and used to encourage, persuade, or manipulate an audience (viewers, readers or listeners; sometimes a specific group) to continue or take some new action. (wiki)
-on that note I suppose you are correct. I am trying to encourage and persuade people into giving bacopa a chance even though it is missing that first dose wow factor.

However, I feel that you are trying to group me in with commercial advertisers which, I believe to be a incorrect judgement.

Commercial advertisers often seek to generate increased consumption of their products or services through "branding," which involves associating a product name or image with certain qualities in the minds of consumers. (wiki)

1. This is not my product.
2. This would be quite a poor advertisement because there is no branded product. It would be like Red bull advertising caffeine ads.
3. I think you misinterpret my excitement with some sort of selfish intent.
4. Little associations are made. Rather, this is a post on the science. It is a explanation of WHY one should consider Bacopa not WHY bacopa will get you a sexy girl or some other Pavlovian cheap conditioning.


Also, your lack of a response is one case example. Considering the thousand and one variables going on in your life that is not enough evidence to say noone should waste there time with Bacopa. Your "experiment was not in a controlled environment, we have little information on exactly what your "experiment" was. And, a population size of one does not have findings able to be generalized to the entire population.

I wish advertisements looked like this. Rather than, "Being stupid hurts, Bacopa can help". I have no cartoons and slogans here.

[telight]

I took bacopa for 5 weeks.

Your post reads like an advertisement.

I agree with you that his post looks like an advertisement, but if you are as well versed in the literature as you say then you would have known that it takes 12 weeks to see benefits. Before 12 weeks there were ZERO memory benefits so it is no surprise that you saw no memory benefits as you quite accurately replicated study results.The strange thing is that it's almost like the memory benefits immediately sprung up at the 12 week period. Although this can be explained by a measurement bias since cognitive tests were performed sparingly over a large period of time, i.e. a cognitive assessment every 4 weeks, in the studies I read. It would be interesting to have some assessment data from say the 8-12 week period where assessments are performed more often, even bi-weekly would be sufficient.

Edited by telight, 18 July 2013 - 06:18 PM.

[Jakare]

I tried Bacopa twice. Unfortunately by when I am reaching the 12 weeks period I always developed thyroiditis which went off as soon as I ditch it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....=bacopa thyroid

[Renegade]

It gave bad fatigue. Has anyone experienced the fatigue levelling out with repeated use?

[Godof Smallthings]

I took bacopa for 5 weeks, and had no results. Last time I checked for human clinical trials, there were two, and while both of them showed a certain positive effect, the effect was not very significant, and occurred mostly in women.

Your post reads like an advertisement.

"I took bacopa for 5 weeks, and had no results."

-Bacopa takes time to work. Studies that are too short tend to note either lesser or no effects, and studies that take multiple measures note that improvements are much better at 8-12 weeks than they are at 4-6 weeks. (Examine)

-What dosage where you taking?
At 20-40mg/kg bodyweight Bacopa, Bacopa Monnieri appeared to increase SERT mRNA expression, but both the increases in SERT expression, Tryptophan Hydroxylase activity, and serotonin levels appear to decline with age, where rats that are 53 days postnatal do not experience increases in either, whereas 19 and 27 days postnatal still experience increases.[21]

For a 160 pound individual we are talking 500-1000mg. I take 2000mg

"Last time I checked for human clinical trials, there were two,"

-using examines human effect matrix I count 18 studies in humans (http://examine.com/s...acopa Monnieri/)

"the effect was not very significant,"

Although general and requiring a long time to take effect (4-6 weeks), bacopa appears to reliably and effectively improve memory in both healthy persons and during cognitive
decline 75% scientific consensus.

-Note many human studies use very small doses if i am taking 10x the amount how much can that study really tell me?



"and occurred mostly in women."
Mechanism of memory enhancement has not been completely solidified, but appears to be related to either enhancing neuronal transmission (via enhancing dendritic proliferation) or through interactions with the serotonergic system (which then influence acetylcholinergic transmission). These effects do not appear to require cognitive decline or the elderly to work, and thus suggest Bacopa can BENEFIT ALL AGES (Examine)


"Your post reads like an advertisement."
Advertising or advertizing[1][2][3] is a form of communication for marketing and used to encourage, persuade, or manipulate an audience (viewers, readers or listeners; sometimes a specific group) to continue or take some new action. (wiki)
-on that note I suppose you are correct. I am trying to encourage and persuade people into giving bacopa a chance even though it is missing that first dose wow factor.

However, I feel that you are trying to group me in with commercial advertisers which, I believe to be a incorrect judgement.

Commercial advertisers often seek to generate increased consumption of their products or services through "branding," which involves associating a product name or image with certain qualities in the minds of consumers. (wiki)

1. This is not my product.
2. This would be quite a poor advertisement because there is no branded product. It would be like Red bull advertising caffeine ads.
3. I think you misinterpret my excitement with some sort of selfish intent.
4. Little associations are made. Rather, this is a post on the science. It is a explanation of WHY one should consider Bacopa not WHY bacopa will get you a sexy girl or some other Pavlovian cheap conditioning.


Also, your lack of a response is one case example. Considering the thousand and one variables going on in your life that is not enough evidence to say noone should waste there time with Bacopa. Your "experiment was not in a controlled environment, we have little information on exactly what your "experiment" was. And, a population size of one does not have findings able to be generalized to the entire population.

I wish advertisements looked like this. Rather than, "Being stupid hurts, Bacopa can help". I have no cartoons and slogans here.

You are quite right that my single personal run of 5 weeks with Bacopa is completely insufficient to tell us anything about Bacopa's effects over the larger population, and that there are indeed a plethora of individual factors that may have contributed to my lack of a result. I was just stating that I gave it a chance, and it did not work out for me. That seemed enough testing for me to move on. I do admit to a certain impatience.

However, as a contrast (which, admittedly, it does not have to be; if bacopa is indeed that effective at chronic administration, it could be used in parallel):

5 weeks:
- Daily 15 min or more of meditation
- Daily 40 min+ brisk walks
- 3 x 1 h of strength training

will each have profound effects on mental and physical health and performance. All of these methods are free and just require your body and your attention. (Gym or dumbbells aren't necessary, calisthenics is all you need to become strong and reap the health benefits.)

So, in comparison...

I agree with you that his post looks like an advertisement, but if you are as well versed in the literature as you say then you would have known that it takes 12 weeks to see benefits.

To be fair, I did not say I was well versed in the literature, but I did do a fair amount of research before deciding to try Bacopa about 1 year ago, so your point is valid. I do recall that fact, now that you reminded me, and actually it was tied to the reason I quit taking bacopa. I quit because a) I expoerienced a problem with delivery of herbal products to my country, customs went weird for a period of time and blocked herbal supplement shipments unless you provided them with very detailed, translated information about each product, and paid a very high import fee.

Since that caused an almost 2 months break after my previous 5 weeks on bacopa, and since I read so many other 'meh' reports here, I just decided that I would not do another run but rather focus on other methods and supplements.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 19 July 2013 - 04:05 AM.

[mrd1]

Godof Smallthings,

OMG Meditation, brisk walks, and strength training! I love you. I am trying to persuade my friends they need all three. While I have no studys to back this up, my opinion is that combing all three should definitely blow bacopa away! If you feel thats all the cognitive enhancement you need, than I envy you because your saving a good few hundred bucks a MONTH of supplements! Perhaps the reason I see such a strong benefits lies in my day and goals. I read, study, and take lectures all day. Maybe, someone who isn't studying for hours a day doesn't see as big of a difference.

Thats horrible that customs blocked herbal supplements! I would be furious. I suffered from mental illness chronically until I combined both Modern medicine and ancient herbs. That high import fee is just unfair I wouldn't take it either to be honest. I get mine for 100 grams for $25! If it wasn't 50 cents a day for me to dose 2 grams I doubt Id love it so much

I think the two main problems with bacopa is many human studies people may read use around 200mg and when you use the HEB equation the human equivilant from rats or mice studys come our to 1000-2000mg! Id be pissed too if I over paid for a small amount of bacopa waited 12 weeks and nothing happened. If you aren't buying in bulk bacopas probably a rip off and no wonder it seems like a scam!

[mrd1]

I tried Bacopa twice. Unfortunately by when I am reaching the 12 weeks period I always developed thyroiditis which went off as soon as I ditch it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....=bacopa thyroid

Thank you for this! Low thyroid levels runs in my family and I am currently taking a medication that may lower my thyroid levels. That study and your case example is quite interesting. Ill be sure to review my regular blood work to make sure I am not developing thyroiditis

(Side note: How on earth did they ingest the dose of 200mg/kg used in that study 1) that is disgusting 2) that's expensive as all hell.)

[mrd1]

It gave bad fatigue. Has anyone experienced the fatigue levelling out with repeated use?

Perhaps I can shed some light on the possible neuro-pharmacology of your subjective response

Let me begin with this-
Our results indicate, that the endogenous adrenergic, serotonergic and opioidergic systems are involved in the analgesic mechanism of action of the aqueous extract of Bacopa monniera. (http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3157104/)

Bacopa seems to downregulate 5ht1a-receptors, but upregulate 5ht2c receptors.
(http://www.longecity...-5ht-receptors/)

Now, here is where I believe there is a misconception Bacopa cannot upregulate 5htc because "Many GPCRs downregulate in response to agonists for the receptor, and upregulate in response to antagonists. The 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors appear to downregulate in response to both antagonists and agonists.(Gray JA, Roth BL (November 2001). "Paradoxical trafficking and regulation of 5-HT2A receptors by agonists and antagonists".)

This is some great theoretical speculation however, here is some research to back the hypothesis up
"Carbamazepine and B. monnieri treatments reversed the alterations in 5-HT(2C) receptor binding, gene expression, and inositol triphosphate content in treated epileptic rats as compared to untreated epileptic rats. The forced swim test confirmed the depressive behavior pattern during epilepsy that was nearly completely reversed by B. monnieri treatment." (Upregulation of 5-HT2C receptors in hippocampus of pilocarpine-induced epileptic rats: antagonism by Bacopa monnieri.)

So, I believe it is fair for me to make the conclusion that the popular misconception that the 5ht2c antagonistic properties of Bacopa leads to upregulation of the 5-ht2c receptor is a misconception and in reality 5ht2c antagonism via ingestion of bacopa leads to a quite paradoxical down-regulation of the 5ht2c receptor.

Now, I hope you are still with me because now I believe we can answer your question!

"It is a G protein-coupled receptor (GPCR) that is coupled to Gq/G11 and mediates excitatory neurotransmission. HTR2C denotes the human gene encoding for the receptor," (Entrez Gene: HTR2C 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin) receptor 2C".")

Excitatory think fireworks!

"An overactivity of 5-HT2C receptors may contribute to depressive and anxiety symptoms in a certain population of patients." (a b Berg KA, Harvey JA, Spampinato U, Clarke WP (December 2005). "Physiological relevance of constitutive activity of 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors". Trends Pharmacol. Sci. 26 (12): 625–30. doi:10.1016/j.tips.2005.10.008. PMID 16269190.)

Perhaps this fatigue isn't fatigue rather your life is sooo stressful that you need to be in that "Fight or flight" to function! Maybe, you are over committed and this "fatigue" is a sign you need to delegate some of your tasks because you can't perform at less your in a state of mild anxiety and sympathetic arousal "Think fight or flight"

Now the question is does this fatigue go away? "level off" as you say. Hmmm, interesting question.

"5-HT2C receptors mediate the release and increase of extracellular dopamine in response to many drugs,[9][10] including caffeine, nicotine, amphetamine, morphine, cocaine, and others. 5-HT2C antagonism increases dopamine release in response to reinforcing drugs, and many dopaminergic stimuli. Feeding, social interaction, and sexual activity all release dopamine subject to inhibition by 5-HT2C. Increased 5-HT2C expression reduces dopamine release in both the presence and absence of stimuli." (bubar MJ, Cunningham KA (2006). "Serotonin 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors as potential targets for modulation of psychostimulant use and dependence". Curr Top Med Chem 6 (18): 1971–85.)

Dopamine think motivation and willingness to work for a reward!

"Serotonin is involved in basal and stress-induced regulation of hypothalamus and pituitary gland hormones such as prolactin, adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), vasopressin and oxytocin, mainly via actions of receptor subtypes 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C.[13] As such, the 5-HT2C receptor is a significant modulator of Hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis (HPA axis).[14] The HPA axis is the main controller of acute sympathetic stress responses related to fight-or-flight response. Prolonged activation and disturbances of the HPA axis contribute to depressive and anxiety symptoms seen in many psychopathological conditions. (Heisler LK, Pronchuk N, Nonogaki K, Zhou L, Raber J, Tung L, Yeo GS, O'Rahilly S, Colmers WF, Elmquist JK, Tecott LH (June 2007). "Serotonin activates the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis via serotonin 2C receptor stimulation". J. Neurosci. 27 (26): 6956–64.)

Seritonin think happy content calm (Warning over simplification!)

Concluding remarks, it would appear to me that yes your fatigue may partially wear off BUT we must make a distinction. Your dopamine will increase causing you to be willing to work harder for a reward. However, the seritonin will calm you down and quell your hyped up sympathetic nervous system. So if your "living on adrenaline" and anxious energy no you will stay fatigued. Howeverful, as far as things like arousal and motivation that shouldn't stay impaired. And, may even improve. And, perhaps the calmness of serotonin can be misinterpreted also as fatigue because we aren't used to being calm ever in our industrialized modern life

Good luck!

Regards,
-Blake

[peoplepleaser101]

I took bacopa for 5 weeks, and had no results. Last time I checked for human clinical trials, there were two, and while both of them showed a certain positive effect, the effect was not very significant, and occurred mostly in women.

Your post reads like an advertisement.

 

There are 9 now, where only 1 one them shows no improvements in memory. So either you got a bunk product, have the self-consciousness of a 2-year old or simply expected too much.

[sedentary]

this is the major problem with bacopa. as mentioned many times; IT TAKES A LONG TIME. how is it possible to correctly attribute any positive or even negative effect to it if it takes months meanwhile you go and experience life every day in various situations and different outcomes. eventually you really lose track to properly follow and calculate if some substance you been taking for like 3 months actually adds anything beneficial at all. one of the only ways to ever be able to know for sure it adds substance is if you are living every day EXACTLY THE SAME. meaning waking up same exact time, eating same exact food and going to bed same time while doing everything the same all meanwhile AND experiencing feelings emotions the same way daily for 3 months and then you will notice SOME difference possibly. how the hell else would you be able to calculate what some substance of 3 months regular use is really doing to you? even if the scenario i mentioned is strictly enforced and kept, naturally the brain changes itself regardless, all the time. so you will still not know definitely if that thing is affecting in any way at all.

im sorry but tell me why would anyone bother with this? especially when there are pills and other NATURAL alternatives out there that work in minutes, aka caffeine, various stimulating herbs etc.

personally i have been following bacopa for a long time and its evolution in human usage. and it has been going drastically down since its first inception. im predicting even more obsolete use in the future. and if you are smart, you should not spend the money on it.

hell, in my personal experience with any substance that takes months to take supposedly any effect, i have dumped. some of those SSRIs antidepressants come to mind. my doctors keep trying to convience me to give them time to work but then i have suicidal ideations today, how do they help me to not kill myself right now for example if i have to still wait 3 more months? thats the most ridiculous idea ever and quite dangerious for anyone with major depressive disorder ready to off themselves any day now. and then science advances and comes up with things like ketamine that work fast. this is the future! things that work faster than 3 months. taking 3 months is outdated granpa's thinking. science advances and so does medicine. bacopa is like that. granpa's remedy

Edited by sedentary, 23 February 2020 - 12:49 PM.

[sedentary]

I took bacopa for 5 weeks, and had no results. Last time I checked for human clinical trials, there were two, and while both of them showed a certain positive effect, the effect was not very significant, and occurred mostly in women.

Your post reads like an advertisement.

 

mind me asking, how much have you spent on it for the 5 weeks taking it? im thinking maybe 2 bottles, but not sure of what price you paid.

[gamesguru]

A once might warrior now sinks in ruin.. why i have stopped taking bacopa on a daily basis:

• The thyroid effects (already mentioned),
• The muscle fatigue and gastrointestinal disturbances, and
• The unpredictably dreamy vs. aroused states, accompanied by a strangely anti-depressant and demotivating effect.

Yes there were benefits to mood, recall and concentration.. but was it worth the coin flip of being drowsy or emotionally "primed" during the day?  No.

I still take bacopa but not often or continuously enough to reap the full benefits, which i've all but given up on maintaining lol