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Nootropic gold mine Ampkaines, stimulats, wakefulness promoting agents etc..

modafinil ampkaines nicotinic agonists long term potentiation ltp dopamine noradrenaline

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#1 Tom_

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 08:41 PM


I'll keep this short - I want this to turn into a discussion post on using evidence based (most animal/models) nootropics in combination to produce a low side effect/massive increase in cognitive functioning both at a singular cognitive process level and complex multi-process descisons.

This started off with me browsing research on modafinil in rats/mice.

What do we think of a stack looking like this:

Modafinil
Ampakine
Nicoitinic agonist
A chemically induced LTP stack (CITEP is a possibility)

I won't speculate on the neuropharmacology and would prefer to hear what you have to say on the matter without bias from my poorly thought out theory (its all a jumble of half though out ideas and I'm still trying to clarify it).

#2 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 11:09 PM

You might fry your brain, seriously. There isn't any single chemical compound that will really make you smart fast, regardless of how much you want NZT to be true. Modafinil seems like a great compound for keeping a steady focus long term as tolerance doesn't seem to be a great issue. We've tried one ampakine here "IDRA-21" and the results were underwhelming. Alpha-7-nicotine PAM's or agonists seem to be OK; but, seem to work best for paranoia and stuff like that. C16 seems to be an interesting compound and we're still waiting for the results from JPC if and when Googletarian decides to send it to him. There's also alpha-5-GABA inverse agonists which seem interesting; but, are likely to produce modest nootropic effects. I'm looking into H3 histamine inverse agonists for more wakeful approach to life. ISRIB is also interesting.



One thing that would really be something that could increase your capacities in terms of cognitive speed and raw "processing power" of your brain would be to squeeze more information that your brain could process in a given time interval. It has been shown that our perception of time changes during life threatening events. Exactly what mechanisms in the brain are responsible for slowing down the perception of time have yet to be elucidated.

Edited by yadayada, 22 July 2013 - 11:10 PM.

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#3 nightlight

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 12:14 AM

One thing that would really be something that could increase your capacities in terms of cognitive speed and raw "processing power" of your brain would be to squeeze more information that your brain could process in a given time interval. It has been shown that our perception of time changes during life threatening events. Exactly what mechanisms in the brain are responsible for slowing down the perception of time have yet to be elucidated.


I wonder whether a sub-halucinogenic dose of DMT or LSD might open the channel to some of the latent capacity that great minds and idiot savants seem to tap into. Has anyone here experimented in that manner?

#4 Leaves

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 12:22 AM

yadayada,

I think your whole brain speeds up which gives the perception of time slowing down. I have trained in southern circular tong long for over a decade and the more will power I use to concentrate (say on someones fist coming for your face) the slower everything happens. I noticed this effect after around 6 years of training 30min every day plus 2hours twice a week.
Also I notice that when my hands a slightly shaky from adrenaline time appears to slow down but how much it slows depends on your will power or how significant/dangerous an event is that is happening around you.

Edited by Leaves, 23 July 2013 - 12:34 AM.


#5 gamesguru

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 12:55 AM

I wonder whether a sub-halucinogenic dose of DMT or LSD might open the channel to some of the latent capacity that great minds and idiot savants seem to tap into. Has anyone here experimented in that manner?

Yes, they open some channels, but they also close others. They boost creativity; the trade off is they interfere with memory and executive function. Concerning the general effects of chronic sub-threshold use of serotonergic psychedelics, there are very few anecdotes or research papers; it's anyone's best guess. An old poster on blulight claimed to have taken threshold doses daily for "9 months" with a modest effect: http://www.bluelight...f-psychedelics.

And if IDRA-21 was a disappointment, where is the future of nootropics? At cys-loop receptors? I don't know, we'll have to wait and see.

Edited by dasheenster, 23 July 2013 - 01:04 AM.


#6 xsiv1

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:53 AM

I'm more of the belief that Modafinil should only be used upto 3 days consecutively (or just sporadically through the week) and then allow for a 3 day washout. I don't believe that one does NOT build a tolerance to it's effects.

#7 machete234

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 09:20 PM

I think you should at least let it leave your body as often as possible maybe every second day works too.

This weekend I was off and on Monday it worked strongly again, I was stimulated a lot longer into the evening.

#8 arjacent

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 09:48 PM

You might fry your brain, seriously. There isn't any single chemical compound that will really make you smart fast, regardless of how much you want NZT to be true. Modafinil seems like a great compound for keeping a steady focus long term as tolerance doesn't seem to be a great issue. We've tried one ampakine here "IDRA-21" and the results were underwhelming. Alpha-7-nicotine PAM's or agonists seem to be OK; but, seem to work best for paranoia and stuff like that. C16 seems to be an interesting compound and we're still waiting for the results from JPC if and when Googletarian decides to send it to him. There's also alpha-5-GABA inverse agonists which seem interesting; but, are likely to produce modest nootropic effects. I'm looking into H3 histamine inverse agonists for more wakeful approach to life. ISRIB is also interesting.



One thing that would really be something that could increase your capacities in terms of cognitive speed and raw "processing power" of your brain would be to squeeze more information that your brain could process in a given time interval. It has been shown that our perception of time changes during life threatening events. Exactly what mechanisms in the brain are responsible for slowing down the perception of time have yet to be elucidated.

I don't know where you get off saying one doesn't develop tolerance to modafinil because in my experience this isn't true. Mod becomes largely useless after a month even in doses as high as 400mg. The tolerance doesn't develop as quickly as with say amphetamines but it is still there. This is especially true of it's focus enhancing abilities. But I agree with you in that it is the closest thing to a wonder drug we have, there are very real working memory gains that one gets taking mod.

I think there ARE compounds out there that will make you really smart really fast, such as amphetamines or racetams, but none of them seem to sustain the effect. The key I think is to prevent these natural feedback mechanisms from kicking in so that desired results can work over time. The only compounds that come close to this are galantamine, noopept, and uridine so it's worth checking them out. Lion's mane and increased NGF is also very effective and seems to work long term. But I think the key will be to target multiple pathways simultaneously so that only stacking compounds in a clever manner will give the best results.

NZT is basically glamorized adderall and I don't think we'll ever reach that level of cognitive enhancement without altering DNA/RNA expression via genetic engineering mechanisms. Hollywood is good at filling your head with bullshit fantasies and Limitless is no exception.

#9 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 10:08 PM

You might fry your brain, seriously. There isn't any single chemical compound that will really make you smart fast, regardless of how much you want NZT to be true. Modafinil seems like a great compound for keeping a steady focus long term as tolerance doesn't seem to be a great issue. We've tried one ampakine here "IDRA-21" and the results were underwhelming. Alpha-7-nicotine PAM's or agonists seem to be OK; but, seem to work best for paranoia and stuff like that. C16 seems to be an interesting compound and we're still waiting for the results from JPC if and when Googletarian decides to send it to him. There's also alpha-5-GABA inverse agonists which seem interesting; but, are likely to produce modest nootropic effects. I'm looking into H3 histamine inverse agonists for more wakeful approach to life. ISRIB is also interesting.



One thing that would really be something that could increase your capacities in terms of cognitive speed and raw "processing power" of your brain would be to squeeze more information that your brain could process in a given time interval. It has been shown that our perception of time changes during life threatening events. Exactly what mechanisms in the brain are responsible for slowing down the perception of time have yet to be elucidated.

I don't know where you get off saying one doesn't develop tolerance to modafinil because in my experience this isn't true. Mod becomes largely useless after a month even in doses as high as 400mg. The tolerance doesn't develop as quickly as with say amphetamines but it is still there. This is especially true of it's focus enhancing abilities. But I agree with you in that it is the closest thing to a wonder drug we have, there are very real working memory gains that one gets taking mod.

I think there ARE compounds out there that will make you really smart really fast, such as amphetamines or racetams, but none of them seem to sustain the effect. The key I think is to prevent these natural feedback mechanisms from kicking in so that desired results can work over time. The only compounds that come close to this are galantamine, noopept, and uridine so it's worth checking them out. Lion's mane and increased NGF is also very effective and seems to work long term. But I think the key will be to target multiple pathways simultaneously so that only stacking compounds in a clever manner will give the best results.

NZT is basically glamorized adderall and I don't think we'll ever reach that level of cognitive enhancement without altering DNA/RNA expression via genetic engineering mechanisms. Hollywood is good at filling your head with bullshit fantasies and Limitless is no exception.

Yes, my mistake. I'm sure tolerance develops with modafinil; but, as you said not as fast as amphetamine or other positively reenforcing agents. I'm not sure amphetamines will make you smart. They will more than likely make you think you are smart; as to whether this is really the case scientific studies have shown that there are no real cognitive gains from amphetamine; but, the perception of that.

#10 MrRogersBestNeighbor

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:48 AM

You might fry your brain, seriously. There isn't any single chemical compound that will really make you smart fast, regardless of how much you want NZT to be true. Modafinil seems like a great compound for keeping a steady focus long term as tolerance doesn't seem to be a great issue. We've tried one ampakine here "IDRA-21" and the results were underwhelming. Alpha-7-nicotine PAM's or agonists seem to be OK; but, seem to work best for paranoia and stuff like that. C16 seems to be an interesting compound and we're still waiting for the results from JPC if and when Googletarian decides to send it to him. There's also alpha-5-GABA inverse agonists which seem interesting; but, are likely to produce modest nootropic effects. I'm looking into H3 histamine inverse agonists for more wakeful approach to life. ISRIB is also interesting.



One thing that would really be something that could increase your capacities in terms of cognitive speed and raw "processing power" of your brain would be to squeeze more information that your brain could process in a given time interval. It has been shown that our perception of time changes during life threatening events. Exactly what mechanisms in the brain are responsible for slowing down the perception of time have yet to be elucidated.

I don't know where you get off saying one doesn't develop tolerance to modafinil because in my experience this isn't true. Mod becomes largely useless after a month even in doses as high as 400mg. The tolerance doesn't develop as quickly as with say amphetamines but it is still there. This is especially true of it's focus enhancing abilities. But I agree with you in that it is the closest thing to a wonder drug we have, there are very real working memory gains that one gets taking mod.

I think there ARE compounds out there that will make you really smart really fast, such as amphetamines or racetams, but none of them seem to sustain the effect. The key I think is to prevent these natural feedback mechanisms from kicking in so that desired results can work over time. The only compounds that come close to this are galantamine, noopept, and uridine so it's worth checking them out. Lion's mane and increased NGF is also very effective and seems to work long term. But I think the key will be to target multiple pathways simultaneously so that only stacking compounds in a clever manner will give the best results.

NZT is basically glamorized adderall and I don't think we'll ever reach that level of cognitive enhancement without altering DNA/RNA expression via genetic engineering mechanisms. Hollywood is good at filling your head with bullshit fantasies and Limitless is no exception.

Yes, my mistake. I'm sure tolerance develops with modafinil; but, as you said not as fast as amphetamine or other positively reenforcing agents. I'm not sure amphetamines will make you smart. They will more than likely make you think you are smart; as to whether this is really the case scientific studies have shown that there are no real cognitive gains from amphetamine; but, the perception of that.


Would you care to link me some of those studies?
The reason I'm curious is because in my personal experience, while anecdotal, I feel in the 4 years I've taken Adderall, I've become far more intelligent than I was when I had started.
Before I had started Adderall, I suffered from crippling depression, anxiety and ADHD. After 4 years of Adderall use, I feel like it put me in a perception where I had laser-like focus, I was completely rid of anxiety and as a result, my depression lifted. Over the 4 years of Adderall use, I've retained those effects. I no longer need Adderall to focus or alleviate anxiety, it's as if the effects have stayed with me.
On top of that, I've found that I can articulate abstract ideas with ease (I'm far more verbally articulate in general), something that was once incredibly difficult for me, I can dive deep into the details of virtually anything, while simultaneously keeping the big picture in mind and I discovered I have an IQ in the top 2%, something that I partially attribute to Adderall. While I would consider myself as having been a fairly intelligent person all my life, I can't recall being THAT intelligent. I also noticed drastic increases in my coordination and reflexes. I remember the first days I took it, when I had played Call of Duty, I would be somewhat below average, being new to the game at the time. 30 minutes after taking my dose, I would easily be number one in any game. It's as if I had suddenly been trained by the CIA for 20 years, within that 30 minutes. I had lightning like reflexes, laser focus and I actually would attempt to think how the other players would be thinking, which would allow me to form "traps" of a sort, to lure them where I wanted them and execute them immediately after. Before then, I had never tried to get into the heads of other players. That's what had originally appealed me to Adderall in the beginning.

Essentially, when I watched the movie "Limitless" several years later, I had wondered if the writer, wrote from experience with amphetamines, because I felt the experience drastically mimicked my own, of course to a much lesser extent. Including when I had upped the dose, noticed horrible side effects (insomnia, lack of appetite), cut the dose down and now I don't feel I really need it anymore. In fact when I take it, it does virtually nothing for me. Sometimes I get a jolt of energy, but it's unpredictable. Now I save it only for when I'm tackling projects for school or for activities where I'll need a lot of energy/endurance.

The only thing Adderall didn't do, is increase my motivation or alleviate my depression completely. After I discovered Hydergine, that's when I had fully recovered from depression.
But looking back in the last 4 years of Adderall use, it would be EXTREMELY difficult, to deny that Adderall didn't have any impact on my intelligence. Of course maturity must have played some role as well, but the effects I obtained immediately from Adderall are the exact same effects that have become a part of me now.

Perhaps I'm just an extremely rare case, as that's been my understanding when talking to the doctors who have prescribed it. Because, at least the way I understand it, virtually no one has such profound effects when taking it as I have. But I highly doubt I'm the only one.
I should also mention that friends have noticed these drastic changes in me as well and have acknowledged how intelligent I have become. In fact, many of them had the similar perception you had mentioned, where maybe I just "feel" more intelligent. After taking Adderall for a couple years (and especially showing them how skilled I become when playing video games after taking Adderall), they no longer deny that Adderall has such an impact in intelligence.
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#11 MrRogersBestNeighbor

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:57 AM

On top of all that, when it came to group projects in college, I used to be extremely inhibited. I'd contribute virtually nothing, I'd certainly NEVER contribute to class discussions.
Now I'm completely uninhibited, I take the lead when it comes to group projects. In fact, in general, I've become a natural leader. It's especially reinforcing to see the respect I get from people. Before, I was never anyone noticeable or memorable.
Of course, this may be due completely to the anxiolytic effects I've experienced on Adderall and maturity.
But the effect has been so profound, I'd find it highly unlikely to be due solely to maturity.

Emotional mindset is very closely linked to how successful a person can be. In fact, "fake it till you make it" actually is very well documented to be a successful strategy in life.
So perhaps Adderall only does make you 'feel' intelligent. But don't you think that would translate into some real gains in intelligence anyways? A person who 'feels' intelligent, will do what they perceive intelligent people do. They will learn, focus, and as a result, experience gains in intelligence. I'd argue that the mindset has a strong impact on reality. In fact, it's well documented that confidence is everything. So in theory, it shouldn't be surprising that Adderall can have such a profound impact on a person, as it has had on me.
But the fact that it also increases blood flow to the brain, I think is far more supportive of Adderall's ability to enhance cognition.
It's very well documented to increase endurance. This easily translates into mental endurance too, especially since if you think of your brain as a muscle, with Adderall it allows you to work out those neurons more effectively. This is, of course, if you're actually using them whilst taking Adderall.

I think the effects of Adderall are highly underestimated, if I haven't made that obvious enough.

Edited by MrRogersBestNeighbor, 17 August 2013 - 10:08 AM.


#12 noos

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 03:50 PM

MrRogersBestNeighbor , how interesting that Hydergine worked for depression. How will it work? Transmitter sensitization? How much did you take?

Edited by noos, 17 August 2013 - 03:51 PM.


#13 TVO

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 03:55 PM

If your interested in hydergine this is a good read http://www.karger.co...Abstract/135946

#14 MrRogersBestNeighbor

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 10:07 PM

MrRogersBestNeighbor , how interesting that Hydergine worked for depression. How will it work? Transmitter sensitization? How much did you take?


Hydergine increases serotonin from what I understand. Other than that, I'm not quite sure.
I've tried Prozac in the past and while it worked (although not as effective as Hydergine), it came with some nasty side effects (Sweating within 5 minutes of activity, incredibly vivid, long and intense dreams, the usual sexual side effects, brain zaps after discontinued use).

But Hydergine has been nothing short of phenomenal. The first 9 months, I was hypomanic.
I started out taking 4.5mg, but upped the dose to 6.25mg later, which is basically a tab and a half per day. (I buy it from http://www.antiaging...m/103-hydergine)
Now I sort of switch between 4.5 and 6.25, not sure it makes much of a difference at all.

It was accounts that I read online that got me interested in it. Ex. http://www.erowid.or...xp.php?ID=48523
Essentially after taking Hydergine, I became a 3.7+ student, 4.0s are no longer alien to me, I drastically increased the intensity of my exercise routine (now I exercise according to the CDC's recommended weekly exercise) and whenever I play guitar, it just flows out. Whenever I would come up with a guitar riff that I was fascinated with, I would record it. After Hydergine, I stopped recording because I found every time I picked up my guitar I would always come up with dozens of such riffs. I've found I enjoy improvising far more than playing stuff I've come up with before.

I should also mention that I found that caffeine/Adderall synergized amazingly well with it. I don't attribute all of those things with JUST Hydergine, because I'm sure caffeine/Adderall played a big role in all that as well, Though it wasn't until I added Hydergine that I was completely alleviated of depression.

Edited by MrRogersBestNeighbor, 18 August 2013 - 10:21 PM.


#15 unregistered_user

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:28 AM

MrRogersBestNeighbor , how interesting that Hydergine worked for depression. How will it work? Transmitter sensitization? How much did you take?


Hydergine increases serotonin from what I understand. Other than that, I'm not quite sure.
I've tried Prozac in the past and while it worked (although not as effective as Hydergine), it came with some nasty side effects (Sweating within 5 minutes of activity, incredibly vivid, long and intense dreams, the usual sexual side effects, brain zaps after discontinued use).

But Hydergine has been nothing short of phenomenal. The first 9 months, I was hypomanic.
I started out taking 4.5mg, but upped the dose to 6.25mg later, which is basically a tab and a half per day. (I buy it from http://www.antiaging...m/103-hydergine)
Now I sort of switch between 4.5 and 6.25, not sure it makes much of a difference at all.

It was accounts that I read online that got me interested in it. Ex. http://www.erowid.or...xp.php?ID=48523
Essentially after taking Hydergine, I became a 3.7+ student, 4.0s are no longer alien to me, I drastically increased the intensity of my exercise routine (now I exercise according to the CDC's recommended weekly exercise) and whenever I play guitar, it just flows out. Whenever I would come up with a guitar riff that I was fascinated with, I would record it. After Hydergine, I stopped recording because I found every time I picked up my guitar I would always come up with dozens of such riffs. I've found I enjoy improvising far more than playing stuff I've come up with before.

I should also mention that I found that caffeine/Adderall synergized amazingly well with it. I don't attribute all of those things with JUST Hydergine, because I'm sure caffeine/Adderall played a big role in all that as well, Though it wasn't until I added Hydergine that I was completely alleviated of depression.



Do you have any concerns about the pleural and peritoneal fibrosis that has been shown to arise from prolonged Hydergine use?

#16 brainslugged

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:12 AM

Ampkines may not be the best idea with amphetamine. Amphetamine interacts with AMPA receptors to some degree, and it may exhibit some of its damage through it. AMPA recepors seem to have something to do with sensitization of amphetamine. It doesn't look like an Ampakine with amphetamine would accelerate sensitization, but it looks like they increase the expression of it. Sensitization is heavily correlated to toxicity, so I am afraid that increased sensitization (if only temporary) may increase acute toxicity (which would not be as temporary). Modafinil may not share this risk, but it is worth mentioning due to the unknown nature of modafinil.

Nicotine also increases amphetamine sensitization I think, so not a good idea.

Possibly, these could be countered by addition of multiple antioxidants and things like memantine.

On a similar topic, does anyone have any idea if stablon with amphetamine would pose any specific risks? I have combined them twice, but each time there was a very bad come down, and I normally get no comedown with either independently. Together, however, they are rocking for me. It is the best cognition I have ever had with the two of them combined. My main concern is that stablon increases D2 response and activity, and D2 activation may have a role in amphetamine toxicity. Does anyone know any more about this?

As far as stimulants making you smarter, yada is correct. However, stimulants do allow you to delve deeper into a subject and for greater ability to fully commit your mind to a subject to figure it out. For example, calculus is much easier to understand when you are able to concentrate on it without the internal gear-grinding and restlessness. I feel like it does increase "smartness" in a way, even thought it may not increase intelligence. It IS easier to understand complex things and make decisions.

Now I'm completely uninhibited, I take the lead when it comes to group projects. In fact, in general, I've become a natural leader. It's especially reinforcing to see the respect I get from people. Before, I was never anyone noticeable or memorable.


What dosage of adderall are you taking, and it is the racemic mix (true "adderall") or d-amp?

I am on 30mg vyvanse which is sufficient for motivational and attention problems on a macro level for me, and it is not particularly uninhibiting. In fact, even with vyvanse and phenibut combined, I am not uninhibited. The combo has worked wonders for my social anxiety, but I am still behaviorally almost the same, extremely quiet, although I can talk to people when I want to and without anxiety. Perhaps it is because I don't mind being quiet? It certainly doesn't make me "the life" of anything or a leader.

#17 MrRogersBestNeighbor

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:34 AM

MrRogersBestNeighbor , how interesting that Hydergine worked for depression. How will it work? Transmitter sensitization? How much did you take?


Hydergine increases serotonin from what I understand. Other than that, I'm not quite sure.
I've tried Prozac in the past and while it worked (although not as effective as Hydergine), it came with some nasty side effects (Sweating within 5 minutes of activity, incredibly vivid, long and intense dreams, the usual sexual side effects, brain zaps after discontinued use).

But Hydergine has been nothing short of phenomenal. The first 9 months, I was hypomanic.
I started out taking 4.5mg, but upped the dose to 6.25mg later, which is basically a tab and a half per day. (I buy it from http://www.antiaging...m/103-hydergine)
Now I sort of switch between 4.5 and 6.25, not sure it makes much of a difference at all.

It was accounts that I read online that got me interested in it. Ex. http://www.erowid.or...xp.php?ID=48523
Essentially after taking Hydergine, I became a 3.7+ student, 4.0s are no longer alien to me, I drastically increased the intensity of my exercise routine (now I exercise according to the CDC's recommended weekly exercise) and whenever I play guitar, it just flows out. Whenever I would come up with a guitar riff that I was fascinated with, I would record it. After Hydergine, I stopped recording because I found every time I picked up my guitar I would always come up with dozens of such riffs. I've found I enjoy improvising far more than playing stuff I've come up with before.

I should also mention that I found that caffeine/Adderall synergized amazingly well with it. I don't attribute all of those things with JUST Hydergine, because I'm sure caffeine/Adderall played a big role in all that as well, Though it wasn't until I added Hydergine that I was completely alleviated of depression.



Do you have any concerns about the pleural and peritoneal fibrosis that has been shown to arise from prolonged Hydergine use?


I understand that fibrosis has been shown to come from other ergot derivatives. There isn't any cases of fibrosis linked to Hydergine specifically, as far as I know. Checking eHealthme, there was 1 case of fibrosis out of 278, which doesn't suggest it's a very high risk. It may have not even been Hydergine that caused fibrosis in that one case. I'm more concerned with Steven-Johnson's syndrome, which showed 5 cases in those who have taken it for over 2 years. But in 100% of those cases, they were taking a separate (but identical) medication with Hydergine.

So to sum up, no, I'm not real concerned at all. If I experience any sort of side effects that suggest otherwise, I'll discontinue use. But from what I've read, correct me if I'm wrong, it doesn't sound like a very serious or likely risk. The only thing I'd be more worried about is taking other medications/supplements and having some sort of serious negative reaction with Hydergine.

Although I have been considering Stablon as an alternative. Thing is, Hydergine has been working so well, I'm not sure I want to experiment with anything else just quite yet as I find it hard to imagine Stablon would have any greater impact than Hydergine has had on me. But knowing that there are risks (albeit, seemingly anecdotal or at least they don't appear to be concrete), an alternative might be worth a shot. For now though, I'm sticking with Hydergine and I'm not too worried about it.

Edited by MrRogersBestNeighbor, 20 August 2013 - 03:33 AM.


#18 MrRogersBestNeighbor

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:12 AM

Now I'm completely uninhibited, I take the lead when it comes to group projects. In fact, in general, I've become a natural leader. It's especially reinforcing to see the respect I get from people. Before, I was never anyone noticeable or memorable.


What dosage of adderall are you taking, and it is the racemic mix (true "adderall") or d-amp?

I am on 30mg vyvanse which is sufficient for motivational and attention problems on a macro level for me, and it is not particularly uninhibiting. In fact, even with vyvanse and phenibut combined, I am not uninhibited. The combo has worked wonders for my social anxiety, but I am still behaviorally almost the same, extremely quiet, although I can talk to people when I want to and without anxiety. Perhaps it is because I don't mind being quiet? It certainly doesn't make me "the life" of anything or a leader.


I started out taking a fairly high dose, of 20mg extended release Adderall. About 4 months later I upped it to 30mg extended release and then switched to Dexedrine (as Adderall began to worsen my depression, which caused me to become a little more inhibited). I actually should've mentioned that earlier, that I switched to Dexedrine and was on it for 2 or 3 years. I only took that dosage for 3 days a week. When I first started taking it, I took it 2 days on, 2 days off to avoid tolerance.

Now I take 2.5-5mg instant release twice a day on the days I take it. For some reason, a year ago I became sensitized to it, to where my normal dose became unbearable. So I gradually decreased the dose to what it is now. But by then, the change I've experienced from amphetamines had already taken place.

How long have you been taking Vyvanse? At least for my case, the change in behavior took about 2-3 years. From what you stated, it sounds exactly how I was after taking Adderall/Dexedrine for the first year or year and a half, I was behaviorally the same, extremely quiet, but with no anxiety. It wasn't until 1-2 years later that I had completely changed. It was somewhat gradual, but I think after years of experiencing absolutely no anxiety in class, it acted as reinforcement to the point I'm at now.
I had many classes with group assignments too, which I think played a major role in that. I'd get frustrated when people weren't contributing much or if I felt their answers were insufficient. So experiencing little anxiety, I'd start jumping in. After a year of that, that's when I became sort of a natural leader, to the point where now I start to direct and organize things goin' on in group assignments and people sort of naturally look to me to make executive decisions, which sometimes feels really odd, considering how I was a year or two ago.
Another thing to add, I've always been a very whole-pictured thinker. Amphetamines caused to become more detail oriented (as well as whole-pictured), more balanced I guess. I've always been very creative, but now that I'm more organized with my ideas, I think that plays another major role in all that because people don't look to you for answers or executive decisions unless you begin contributing a lot in the beginning. I used to have a lot of ideas, just felt insecure about sharing them. Now I no longer feel that way.

As I mentioned earlier, I might just be a unique case or maybe you just gotta give it more time and be in the right environments for those changes to occur.
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#19 MrRogersBestNeighbor

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:54 AM

MrRogersBestNeighbor , how interesting that Hydergine worked for depression. How will it work? Transmitter sensitization? How much did you take?


Hydergine increases serotonin from what I understand. Other than that, I'm not quite sure.
I've tried Prozac in the past and while it worked (although not as effective as Hydergine), it came with some nasty side effects (Sweating within 5 minutes of activity, incredibly vivid, long and intense dreams, the usual sexual side effects, brain zaps after discontinued use).

But Hydergine has been nothing short of phenomenal. The first 9 months, I was hypomanic.
I started out taking 4.5mg, but upped the dose to 6.25mg later, which is basically a tab and a half per day. (I buy it from http://www.antiaging...m/103-hydergine)
Now I sort of switch between 4.5 and 6.25, not sure it makes much of a difference at all.

It was accounts that I read online that got me interested in it. Ex. http://www.erowid.or...xp.php?ID=48523
Essentially after taking Hydergine, I became a 3.7+ student, 4.0s are no longer alien to me, I drastically increased the intensity of my exercise routine (now I exercise according to the CDC's recommended weekly exercise) and whenever I play guitar, it just flows out. Whenever I would come up with a guitar riff that I was fascinated with, I would record it. After Hydergine, I stopped recording because I found every time I picked up my guitar I would always come up with dozens of such riffs. I've found I enjoy improvising far more than playing stuff I've come up with before.

I should also mention that I found that caffeine/Adderall synergized amazingly well with it. I don't attribute all of those things with JUST Hydergine, because I'm sure caffeine/Adderall played a big role in all that as well, Though it wasn't until I added Hydergine that I was completely alleviated of depression.



Do you have any concerns about the pleural and peritoneal fibrosis that has been shown to arise from prolonged Hydergine use?


I understand that fibrosis has been shown to come from other ergot derivatives. There isn't any cases of fibrosis linked to Hydergine specifically, as far as I know. Checking eHealthme, there was 1 case of fibrosis out of 278, which doesn't suggest it's a very high risk. It may have not even been Hydergine that caused fibrosis in that one case. I'm more concerned with Steven-Johnson's syndrome, which showed 5 cases in those who have taken it for over 2 years. But in 100% of those cases, they were taking a separate (but identical) medication with Hydergine.

So to sum up, no, I'm not real concerned at all. If I experience any sort of side effects that suggest otherwise, I'll discontinue use. But from what I've read, correct me if I'm wrong, it doesn't sound like a very serious or likely risk. The only thing I'd be more worried about is taking other medications/supplements and having some sort of serious negative reaction with Hydergine.

Although I have been considering Stablon as an alternative. Thing is, Hydergine has been working so well, I'm not sure I want to experiment with anything else just quite yet as I find it hard to imagine Stablon would have any greater impact than Hydergine has had on me. But knowing that there are risks (albeit, seemingly anecdotal or at least they don't appear to be concrete), an alternative might be worth a shot. For now though, I'm sticking with Hydergine and I'm not too worried about it.


I forgot to also mention that I take a month break after every 5 months, so I'm sure that might decrease the risk. I've thought about cycling it with Stablon or an antidepressant too.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: modafinil, ampkaines, nicotinic agonists, long term potentiation, ltp, dopamine, noradrenaline

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