17 replies to this topic

[geostriata]

Hello everyone!

Not too long ago, I started going to school again and realized all-too-quickly that my memory was terrible. As all I was taking at the time was Wellbutrin + Vitamins, I started doing some research on why my memory might be so bad. This led me to the discovery of nootropics, Longecity, and the following thread: http://www.longecity...ith-wellbutrin/.

In this thread, it seemed like wellbutrin was an anticholinergic, it would be helpful to add ALCAR. I then researched ALCAR and saw a ENORMOUS amount of positive research talking about how good the drug was, so I ordered some immediately.

I started taking 500mg of acetyl l-carnitine twice a day and 100mg of R-lipoic acid once a day. Almost immediately, my life went downhill fast. All of a sudden work got much harder, I got much more frustrated, and I was getting actually angry here and there (I never get angry). This led to a sort of short-lived depression, but one that was much more irritable than I'm used to.

After about a month, I realized that it was the ALCAR that was causing the depression. Sure enough, after skipping a single ALCAR dose, everything got 100 times better. My mood brightened and everything was normal again. I even waited a few days off of ALCAR and tried taking it again. Sure enough, an hour or so after taking the pill, all sorts of things began to really annoy me and stress me out.

Has anyone encountered this, or have an idea as to why this might've happened? Could it be the Wellbutrin + ALCAR interaction? Or could it be just because I'm sensitive to the ALCAR? I'm thinking it's the former, given that I seem to have no issues with Alpha GPC supplementation.

[geostriata]

Interesting. I dropped the wellbutrin from 200mg to 100mg for a few days, then tried the ALCAR again. Things went much better. Unfortunately, I can't really draw too much from this as I've also added piracetam recently, which is just making everything better across the spectrum.

In fact, today was pretty darn excellent. I'm thinking the ALCAR helps a great deal with the piracetam. Perhaps I should taper off the wellbutrin entirely and switch to SAMe.

[addx]

Why are you taking wellbutrin? It's a stupid medication. It kills your memory and makes you angry. The only semi-valid purpose of it is to quit smoking or aid erectyle dysfunction issues stemming from SSRI use.

[geostriata]

Wellbutrin is pretty much the only antidepressant that has worked, and never caused me to get angry (the opposite, in fact). So I have a lot of gratitude for what it's accomplished. It also caused me to stop smoking, which was a pretty sweet bonus.

So yes, Wellbutrin kills your memory, but depression does that too (and far worse). In that regard, the wellbutrin has probably resulted in a better cognitive net benefit than any nootropic ever could. So I wouldn't really call it stupid; it's just served its purpose.

Since things are better now, I feel like the downsides of Wellbutrin outweigh the benefits. As such, I'm gradually going to decrease my dose, while also introducing SAMe, exercise, and some other beneficial nutrients.

[xsiv1]

Why are you taking wellbutrin? It's a stupid medication. It kills your memory and makes you angry. The only semi-valid purpose of it is to quit smoking or aid erectyle dysfunction issues stemming from SSRI use.

Have you ever went through a clinical depression where the symptoms were so severe that apathy, anhedonia and complete hopeless despair enveloped your every thought. At times, picking up the phone is an act in futility. Sometimes people need to take SSRIs to get out of it. Are they shit for you? Well yeah, but once you're in it, you may need it and no amount of vigorous exercise, super food nutrition regimen or supplementation will work fast enough. Hopefully, any doctor who properly prescribed it, will taper one off as soon as remission is evident. My old doc didn't and I didn't know enough about their effects except to say it worked. For that i was grateful.

[Luddist]

Could one of you explain how Wellbutrin kills memory or provide a link to an explanation? Thanks.

[geostriata]

I don't know about the mechanism by which Wellbutrin causes memory loss; I'm speaking mostly out of experience. After about 3 years of use, I've realized that my short term memory is pretty bad. By elimination, I believe it to be the Wellbutrin that was responsible. I could apply my knowledge just fine, but I've had difficulty absorbing new knowledge.

From what I can tell, memory loss is only reported in a small percentage of Wellbutrin users, about 3%: http://www.rxlist.co...drug-center.htm.

I would be very interested as well if anyone had any theories as to how Wellbutrin kills memory and/or possible ways to repair the damage.

[addx]

Could one of you explain how Wellbutrin kills memory or provide a link to an explanation? Thanks.

It antagonizes nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. This provides the anti-smoking effect but also blunts memory as these receptors are invaluable for memory storage.

[addx]

Why are you taking wellbutrin? It's a stupid medication. It kills your memory and makes you angry. The only semi-valid purpose of it is to quit smoking or aid erectyle dysfunction issues stemming from SSRI use.

Have you ever went through a clinical depression where the symptoms were so severe that apathy, anhedonia and complete hopeless despair enveloped your every thought. At times, picking up the phone is an act in futility. Sometimes people need to take SSRIs to get out of it. Are they shit for you? Well yeah, but once you're in it, you may need it and no amount of vigorous exercise, super food nutrition regimen or supplementation will work fast enough. Hopefully, any doctor who properly prescribed it, will taper one off as soon as remission is evident. My old doc didn't and I didn't know enough about their effects except to say it worked. For that i was grateful.

Yes, SSRIs are shit too. I realise they help some people but that doesn't make them less of a crap medication. Marginally better than placebo, SSRIs feature like 50ish% ED, 15ish% ED after stopping use. That's some hell of trade-off at least for a guy.

I would try Ketamine weekly dosing, Salvia weekly dosing, Ibogaine flood trip or microdosing all before trying SSRIs. They're all illegal but I would try them before SSRIs.

And yes, I've had very much depressive issues. The legal medicines I used to stop it were memantine and tianeptine(coaxil). Both of them should be 1st line defense IMO as neither causes crappy sideeffects or withdrawal and they start working very soon unlike SSRIs.

Visit the group buy JDTic thread and see it explained there. Why current medication doesn't work and what does work.

[Luddist]

I don't know about the mechanism by which Wellbutrin causes memory loss; I'm speaking mostly out of experience. After about 3 years of use, I've realized that my short term memory is pretty bad. By elimination, I believe it to be the Wellbutrin that was responsible. I could apply my knowledge just fine, but I've had difficulty absorbing new knowledge.

From what I can tell, memory loss is only reported in a small percentage of Wellbutrin users, about 3%: http://www.rxlist.co...drug-center.htm.

I would be very interested as well if anyone had any theories as to how Wellbutrin kills memory and/or possible ways to repair the damage.

So the effect, if present, is irreversible?

[addx]

The receptors should return to normal after stopping use.

It is proposed that even while taking Wellbutrin the receptors would upregulate and counter/nullify the Wellbutrin effect. This might even be true for some people, probably on a spectrum, some have more issues, some have less. Self reported memory loss is kind of subjective issue. I'm an IT expert and I really need my memory. Someone in some other field might not have such requirements and wouldn't even notice the lack of memory as detrimental.

[geostriata]

Just an update. After waiting a few more days, I tried 300mg centrophenoxine (with nothing else) and experienced a reaction that was very similar to the ALCAR. Except this time, the depression was longer lived, but less angry. I'm thinking that choline levels may be the key here.

The interesting thing is that Alpha GPC doesn't cause the same problem.

Edited by constrapolator, 15 August 2013 - 03:07 AM.

[xsiv1]

Why are you taking wellbutrin? It's a stupid medication. It kills your memory and makes you angry. The only semi-valid purpose of it is to quit smoking or aid erectyle dysfunction issues stemming from SSRI use.

Have you ever went through a clinical depression where the symptoms were so severe that apathy, anhedonia and complete hopeless despair enveloped your every thought. At times, picking up the phone is an act in futility. Sometimes people need to take SSRIs to get out of it. Are they shit for you? Well yeah, but once you're in it, you may need it and no amount of vigorous exercise, super food nutrition regimen or supplementation will work fast enough. Hopefully, any doctor who properly prescribed it, will taper one off as soon as remission is evident. My old doc didn't and I didn't know enough about their effects except to say it worked. For that i was grateful.

Yes, SSRIs are shit too. I realise they help some people but that doesn't make them less of a crap medication. Marginally better than placebo, SSRIs feature like 50ish% ED, 15ish% ED after stopping use. That's some hell of trade-off at least for a guy.

I would try Ketamine weekly dosing, Salvia weekly dosing, Ibogaine flood trip or microdosing all before trying SSRIs. They're all illegal but I would try them before SSRIs.

And yes, I've had very much depressive issues. The legal medicines I used to stop it were memantine and tianeptine(coaxil). Both of them should be 1st line defense IMO as neither causes crappy sideeffects or withdrawal and they start working very soon unlike SSRIs.

Visit the group buy JDTic thread and see it explained there. Why current medication doesn't work and what does work.

I'm going to assume you have been on SSRI's in the past then. I'm surely not defending their first line use and is been perhaps 13 years since I've had a MDD, but back then after going through an array of all different kinds. It was actually Elavil that worked. Yup, and old tricyclic. After the side effects got so bad, I was switched to paxil. It continued to work but sucks to come off of. If I only knew what I know now. :-(

[Tom_]

addx, go do some actual reading. Your facts are so far off its laughable. Sure SSRI come with side effects but not really that severe, most people just don't like the slightest bit of uncomptableness.

As mentioned anagonism of the NAch receptors is the major causing of this symptom. It is actually quite rare and most people find the opposite - their memory improves due to its noradrenaline & dopamine re-uptake effects, which explains its efficasy in ADHD and why peoples cognitive functions tend to increase. Its not going to be a chronic disorder, discontinuation or a nicotine patch will sort it out. You may find when you discontinue you it for a while your cognitive facualties are slightly improved from the up-regulation.

The ALCAR increases Ach firing which is why you got worse. I tell people day in and day out, Ach is almost as closely linked with depression and serotonin. In fact speaking in very broad terms the feedback mechanism between noradrenaline and Ach is nearly all the science you need to be aware of to understand about 20% of MDD's.

[geostriata]

Thanks for your input on this, Tom. I think you're right. I've discontinued use of the Wellbutrin (including the ALCAR, which I stopped a while ago), and I feel much better. In fact, the contrast is so apparent that it saddens me to realize just how long I've lived with impaired memory due to this medication.

SAMe, on the other hand, is working out great. I'm going to stick with that. As for the ALCAR, I'm thinking that I'll give it another shot in a couple of months. Perhaps after I've had some time away from the Wellbutrin, it'll be a good supplement without all of the NDRI effects going on.

[addx]

addx, go do some actual reading. Your facts are so far off its laughable. Sure SSRI come with side effects but not really that severe, most people just don't like the slightest bit of uncomptableness.

Here's a nice meta study

http://www.spring.or...ssants-dont.php

I don't need a meta study to draw my conclusions as I read thousands of pubmed studies, mostly newer experimental drugs which are usually compared to current SSRI or trycylcic treatment. So please, YOU go do some actual reading. Half of the antidepressants on the market had trouble reaching singificance in trials against a placebo.

Also, I have at least 8 family members or close relatives on SSRIs and ALL of them report the sexual side effects. My sample size isn't great but I'm prone to postulate that those that don't report sexual sideeffects with SSRIs probably didn't have any libido anyway or don't have anyone to have sex with. So it's really an underreported side-effect.

As mentioned anagonism of the NAch receptors is the major causing of this symptom. It is actually quite rare and most people find the opposite - their memory improves due to its noradrenaline & dopamine re-uptake effects, which explains its efficasy in ADHD and why peoples cognitive functions tend to increase. Its not going to be a chronic disorder, discontinuation or a nicotine patch will sort it out. You may find when you discontinue you it for a while your cognitive facualties are slightly improved from the up-regulation.

Well I actually read about 200 user experiences with wellbutrin(because I was on it for a short while), and they aint that happy, how come? And it is also very rare to find ADHD people that find wellbutrin better than normal ADHD medication.

Go read my anhedonia/depression/anxiety topic and you might get a clue how this stuff actually works and how wrong the current medication is and also why it does have some effect but often not a good one.

The ALCAR increases Ach firing which is why you got worse. I tell people day in and day out, Ach is almost as closely linked with depression and serotonin. In fact speaking in very broad terms the feedback mechanism between noradrenaline and Ach is nearly all the science you need to be aware of to understand about 20% of MDD's.

This I agree with.

[nupi]

I don't need a meta study to draw my conclusions as I read thousands of pubmed studies, mostly newer experimental drugs which are usually compared to current SSRI or trycylcic treatment. So please, YOU go do some actual reading. Half of the antidepressants on the market had trouble reaching singificance in trials against a placebo.

And half of the people participating in the studies probably are not really suited for that particular AD but might have good response to another one. I have tried enough to know that there are significant differences in both efficacy and side effect profiles. I would find it more interesting to analyze the best AD outcome per patient vs placebo instead of random drug that may or may not be suitable for any given patient vs placebo.

Also, I have at least 8 family members or close relatives on SSRIs and ALL of them report the sexual side effects. My sample size isn't great but I'm prone to postulate that those that don't report sexual sideeffects with SSRIs probably didn't have any libido anyway or don't have anyone to have sex with. So it's really an underreported side-effect.

I assume there is a fair bit of nocebo going on there. Plus not all AD's are the same - SNRI hit me much harder there than any SSRI ever did (including notoriously bad mouthed ones like Fluoxetine). BTW: My 23andme report shows that I have above average response rate to SSRIs and average or slightly below sexual dysfunction from them. Sadly it has not been updated in a while, maybe I should give Promeathase another try.

Well I actually read about 200 user experiences with wellbutrin(because I was on it for a short while), and they aint that happy, how come? And it is also very rare to find ADHD people that find wellbutrin better than normal ADHD medication.

A) It is mismarketed it has its uses and a very specific side effect profile which is however different from what they claim. Problem is it can be fairly anxiogenic or even furthering OCD which is why it should never be prescribed to people with anxiety issues.
B) Nobody claims it is better than normal ADHD medication, it's weaker on DRI for sure. But because of that, it is most likely smoother than MPH (definitely so for DAmp) and has less risk of abuse (albeit there are reports of that, too and I can somehow see why)

Go read my anhedonia/depression/anxiety topic and you might get a clue how this stuff actually works and how wrong the current medication is and also why it does have some effect but often not a good one.

How about a direct link to that? Also unfortunately we do not really have much widely tested meds outside SSRI/SNRI/TCA/MAOI classes, so arguing current drugs are wrong does not really help anyone seeking relief now.

Edited by nupi, 19 August 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[addx]

Well, it's the topic below this one but here

http://www.longecity...tionwithdrawal/


Yes, they are mostly experimental drugs for now. We're trying for a group buy of one here (JDTic group buy), but are having issues finding sources. I very much beleive in what I wrote on that topic that I would ingest an experimental drug if I could get my hands on it.

Check it out please and see if it makes sense.