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Dentin regrowth

mk4 dentin teeth

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#1 bugme

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 04:13 PM


Have any of you managed to regenerate dentin with K2 supplementation (in the form of MK4) and its cofactors (D3, calcium, magnesium)?
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#2 niner

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 09:58 PM

Do you mean enamel? Once you are down to the dentin, it's really time for restorative work. I don't think anyone has ever regenerated enamel that was completely gone. It's possible to remineralize enamel that's in poor condition, but I think once it's gone, it's gone.

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#3 1kgcoffee

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:00 PM

I've definitely had positive effect from k complex and hot tea. Been taking magnesium regularly for other reasons, but I'm on a mineral and dairy rich diet to begin with. Weightlifting seems to have also had a positive effect on my teeth.

High levels of Vitamin D I've found to have a negative effect

Edited by 1kgcoffee, 25 August 2013 - 11:01 PM.


#4 niner

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:46 AM

I've definitely had positive effect from k complex and hot tea. Been taking magnesium regularly for other reasons, but I'm on a mineral and dairy rich diet to begin with. Weightlifting seems to have also had a positive effect on my teeth.

High levels of Vitamin D I've found to have a negative effect


K and magnesium are providing a "positive effect", but what does that mean? I'll be extremely surprised if you mean regrowing either dentin or enamel. Do you mean that your teeth feel smoother or look better?
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#5 1kgcoffee

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 06:49 AM

Healthy young adults like myself have the potential to regenerate just about anything given a supply of nutrients and cofactors. Everything about me is healthier, including teeth and gums which are stronger, far less sensitive, in better condition than in my late teens. I was worried then that I'd need dentures early in life which is why I have been so diligent. That fear is gone.

Part of it is being young and having an active pool of stem cells. The other part is abstaining from things that prevent your teeth from repairing, like sugary drinks, or excessive brushing and mouthwash which remove the protective pellicle and halt tooth regeneration. Sugar-free hot tea provides some flouride and has anti-bacterial properties and improves blood flow. Weight training ramps up igf-1. Dairy is rich in bone building nutrients besides calcium, such as lactoferrin.

k-complex and magnesium are important, invaluable in rebuilding teeth IMHO, but need to be used as part of a wider plan. I can feel my teeth become less resilient when off of k supplementation for a long enough period with everything else constant.

Edited by 1kgcoffee, 26 August 2013 - 06:54 AM.

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#6 niner

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:54 PM

Healthy young adults like myself have the potential to regenerate just about anything given a supply of nutrients and cofactors.


If you wear through your enamel due to bruxism or malocclusion, then the soft underlying dentin will be exposed. That's basically the end for the enamel. I don't know of any cases where it's regrown from that state, regardless of age. It's kind of like cutting off your arm- it doesn't grow back. Sooner or later, depending on how much money and regulatory flexibility we're willing to devote to stem cell, development, and rejuvenation research, we'll probably be able to change this.

Whatever was wrong with your teeth in the past, you must have had some enamel left. As long as there's some intact enamel, it can, at least in favorable cases, be improved through nutritive and topical methods.
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#7 bugme

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:13 PM

niner,

I would never be so foolish to ask here on the forum if it is possible to regenerate an arm amputee... If I´m asking about teeth, is because I consider them "part" of our bones -or at least they share many similarities- and we all know that it is possible to regenerate bone, hence my consultation...

#8 balance

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 05:55 PM

I'll have to agree with niner on this. Regrowing dental enamel ain't gonna happen. I've been using all the bone building nutrients there are to aid with joint pains and bone building. My teeth remained as sensitive as ever.

#9 meth_use_lah

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:58 PM

Not sure why your spamming about enamel when OP asks about dentin. I would say yes it's possible my teeth felt less sensitive and my "ghost" teeth seemed to get less transparent. That was with 5 mg mk4 per day with vit. D magnesium and dairy..
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#10 cATsE

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 08:08 PM

Some say mastic gum will do that, but then again, most people telling you this happen to be also the one's selling it.
So best decide for yourself how much of that claim is actually true. ;)

#11 niner

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 08:32 PM

Not sure why your spamming about enamel when OP asks about dentin. I would say yes it's possible my teeth felt less sensitive and my "ghost" teeth seemed to get less transparent. That was with 5 mg mk4 per day with vit. D magnesium and dairy..


I asked the OP if they meant enamel, since regrowing dentin makes no sense. Assuming you're missing some dentin, if you regrow it, but you don't regrow enamel, you're basically screwed since the soft dentin will eventually wear (or dissolve, from acids) away if there's no enamel to protect it. You aren't going to lose dentin unless you lose at least some enamel. OP never replied to my question. Your "ghost" teeth were an enamel problem, not a dentin problem. It is possible to remineralize enamel- people do this all the time using special topical preparations. People also see improvements in enamel quality using nutritional approaches, like you did. Prior to supplementing, your diet probably wasn't giving you everything you needed.
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#12 bugme

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 08:58 PM

People,

I do not know how we ended up talking about the enamel, when my initial concern relates to dentin... They are very different things ... Usually, the "health" of enamel has more to do with oral hygiene ...

"All popular toothpastes on the market contain glycerin which covers your teeth every time you brush them and prevents re-enamelization. Based on studies, it takes up to 20 washes to remove glycerin off your teeth. No matter how many times you brush them, because of glycerin, fluoride and other additives in your common toothpaste, your teeth can’t rebuild enamel nor get healthy mineral support."

Posted Image

I remember reading that Dr. Weston Price had managed REVERSE cavities with the help of vitamin K, so my curiosity ...

Today my teeth are correct, except that -over the years- they began to show through a little... I mean, they don´t show that "solid" white they had years ago...

In fact, it´s dentin what produces -by contrast- that solid white our teeth...
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#13 niner

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:24 PM

I do not know how we ended up talking about the enamel, when my initial concern relates to dentin...


We ended up talking about enamel because (in post #2) I asked if that's what you meant. Sorry, I guess you missed that.

Today my teeth are correct, except that -over the years- they began to show through a little... I mean, they don´t show that "solid" white they had years ago...

In fact, it´s dentin what produces -by contrast- that solid white our teeth...


Enamel is semitransparent, but it's not perfectly clear. If it seems to be getting more transparent, you probably need to remineralize the enamel, not grow dentin.
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#14 blood

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:35 PM

I'll have to agree with niner on this. Regrowing dental enamel ain't gonna happen. I've been using all the bone building nutrients there are to aid with joint pains and bone building. My teeth remained as sensitive as ever.


There is a small area in my upper left back teeth which was very sensitive (according to my dentist, due to a bit of erosion of enamel, maybe from drinking too many acidic energy drinks when younger, or, possibly, brushing too hard in that region). I have worked various "bone building" factors into my supplementation routine (K2, magnesium, boron, polyphenols) but it was only when I added strontium that the sensitivity in my upper left back teeth went away seemingly for good. I also tried the Tooth Mousse product, which gave good short term results which faded when I stopped using the product.

#15 balance

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:13 PM

Below is a list of supplements I have taken, that are supposed to have positive effects on teeth and bones, some of which I've taken since 2006, with no results for my teeth:

4 jarrow hyaluronic acid 50mg
20g whey isolate immunopro / one world whey 25g, life extension whey isolate 25g, life extension brown rice protein
1 vitamin d3 1000-2000IU (made sure my vit A intake was adequate but not too high; never over 3000iu)
often took L-proline and L-Lysine as collagen boosters, have taken collagen bound calcium as well, etc.
1 k2 mk-4 15-45mg (tried the liquid version too)
1 doctor's best mag threonate or mag glycinate
1 boron 3-9mg
1 K1 1000mcg
1 chromium 200-500mcg
1 swanson activated b complex (25mg of P5P)
1 zinc picolinate 15mg
1 ultra dophilus 50 billion
1 coq10 ubiquinol 200mg
1 selenium 50-100mcg 3 best forms
2 omegavia
2 biosil 5mg
1-4 life enhancement potassium bicarbonate 500mg
1 swanson copper 2mg TRAACS
2 strontium citrate 680mg
buffered vitamin C 100-700mg sporadically since I'm allergic to it...

ensured sufficient iron and checked my hormones, they are fine.

Edited by piet3r, 26 August 2013 - 11:14 PM.

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#16 bugme

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:30 PM

Thanks for your input, blood... In fact, I was wondering add Strontium to my regimen.... I have read many positive things about it...

What dose were you taking? Any brand to recommend?

#17 bugme

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:41 PM

Good regimen, piet3r... I just wonder if your magnesium intake is not too low... Remember it´s an important co-factor for vitamins K2 and D (and you take large doses of both)...

In my case, I try to consume no less than 1000 mg of magnesium (elemental)...

Edited by bugme, 26 August 2013 - 11:43 PM.

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#18 ta5

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:50 PM

This was not the OP's question, but... I looked into toothpastes for sensitivity, and NovaMin looks like the best stuff. I get the Dr Collins toothpaste (which has NovaMin and no Fluoride), and cycle it with Sensodyne from the UK (which has NovaMin and high Fluoride). I use Dr Collins 2 days and 1 day with Sensodyne. Sensodyne bought the company that makes NovaMin, or the patent. I read that the Flouride might interfere with the actions of NovaMin, so that's why I cycle it - I want both. It helped my tooth sensitivity, and seems to have whitened my teeth somewhat. Funny, I developed the sensitivity (from acidic foods) while I had been using Sensodyne Pronamel for a couple years, and when I switched to the NovaMin toothpastes, that's when it went away. I noticed Sensodyne's TV ads changed the last few months and I wonder if the have a US product with NovaMin now...I keep meaning to check the ingredients at the store. Nope, I just found this article that says it doesn't contain Novamin. Strange. Damn it, I see Dr Collins is ending their product. Have to buy more...

I think the anti-tartar ingredients are bad because they prevent remineralization. I'm intrigued by the idea that glycerin prevents re-enamelization. I wonder if that's the anti-tartar ingredient? I don't remember.

I've been reading a lot about osteoporosis lately, and there is a lot of overlap between things that are good for bones and teeth. There are actually a million things, a surprising number of supplements that are good for bones. There are new studies on pubmed daily.

#19 bugme

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:53 PM

ta5,

I´m tempted to try this one:
http://www.ebay.com/...=item46119629e6

Any experience with tooth soaps?

Edited by bugme, 26 August 2013 - 11:54 PM.


#20 ta5

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 12:44 AM

I´m tempted to try this one:
http://www.ebay.com/...=item46119629e6

Any experience with tooth soaps?


No. I guess it might help if you just ate some acidic foods. Otherwise, I wouldn't expect it to do much.

Another ingredient that I think can do some good is Recaldent, which comes in MI Paste, and some gum. I tried MI Paste a couple times and didn't notice much. I didn't give it a very good try though. You don't brush with it, you apply it and let it sit for a few minutes after you brush with a normal toothpaste. But, I think the evidence is stronger for NovaMin.

#21 bugme

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:13 AM

Interesting stuff about Strontium:

"In general, the metabolism and distribution of strontium mimics that of calcium. The major sites of retention of both elements are the skeleton and teeth, with aorta a distant third. Strontium is incorporated mainly in the mineral phase of bones and teeth.
Strontium occurs in the enamel and dentin of teeth in concentrations that parallel the levels in the bones of these same individuals and of those from similar geographical locations. Strontium is deposited primarily before eruption, during tooth calcification, is mostly permanently retained, and is not affected by fluoride in the drinking water."

#22 Strelok

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:25 AM

What I do know is that I reversed a couple minor cavities that I had with vitamin K2. These cavities were enough to bother me each time I ate food, and I was considering going to the dentist. Instead, I gave vitamin K2 a chance, and it worked. I can't remember exactly how long it took, but the pain eventually started to steadily subside until it was completely gone. I'd guess it took 4 or 5 months of taking two of these daily: http://www.vitacost....nced-k2-complex

I was also taking magnesium, drinking raw milk as my calcium source, and trying to get plenty of sunshine for vitamin D.
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#23 niner

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:26 AM

I've used strontium, and just about every bone supplement under the sun. None of them have replaced any missing dentin or enamel. I'm missing plenty of both, since I had undiagnosed bruxism for a number of years. I'll probably spend over twenty grand to fix the damage...
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#24 balance

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:30 AM

Same as niner my problems are from bruxism as well.

I forgot to include that I have also tried AOR's Ortho Bone and OBP milk protein bone supplement.

I am using toothsoap from toothsoap.com for a few months now and alternate it with their blue/white toothbrights product which contains activated charcoal and hence is black in color. I've done this switch after reading the book Cure Tooth Decay by Ramiel Nagel and the Acid Alkaline Food Guide and combining the two. I'm trying to eat less acidic foods and have stopped eating any and all wheat products. Though I use the non pepermint natural flavorless one for purity reasons, it's quite die-hard stuff taste wise, so you are warned ;)

The problem I have with strontium is that I wonder if it goes in the bones instead of calcium and does anybody know if strontium bones are equally strong? The studies you cite are mostly from water and food intake, nowhere near the bone advertising 680mg x 2 intakes. Therefore I don't take strontium that often.

I've also forgotten to mention I've tried Jarrow's MK-7 at 180mcg a day, glucosamine and chondroitin and a number of other joint supplements, as well as the ones linked here in the osteoporosis studies website (hesperidin, resveratrol, etc).

Yes I realize my magnesium intake is low, but either I need very little or am very sensitive to it, because every time I take more than 100-200mg I get heavy duty diarrhea, regardless of what brand or what sort. I'm gonna give the Jigsaw a shot, but I have a very bad feeling about that time release stuff (either ending up seeing an undissolved tablet in the bathroom, or getting massive diarrhea due to it's purported higher absorbability).

#25 bugme

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:54 AM

The "problem" with magnesium is that absorption decreases rapidly when more than 200 mg is consumed at one time, therefore it’s important to take magnesium in divided doses throughout the day or try a time release formula...

I believe that diarrhea occurs, however, by magnesium that was NOT absorbed, thus creating a laxative effect... That´s why transdermal magnesium doesn´t give you that problem...

Maybe you have an absorption issue with magnesium... Maybe you should up your B6, as it´s a great magnesium absorption cofactor...

I'm sure the Jigsaw Growth Formula will work for you ;-)

Edited by bugme, 27 August 2013 - 05:05 AM.


#26 Luminosity

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:14 AM

Here's a comparison of four commercial remineralization ingredients, such as Novamin, etc. http://www.dentist.n...m-phosphate.asp

Anyone know where we can purchase these things pure and make our own mouthwashes? Niner?

Cola de Caballo by Amazon Therapeutics helps remineralize your teeth. It is an alcohol preserved extract of wild Amazonian horsetail ferns. It is high in organic silica and probably has other minerals. You can put a little bit of it in a bottle cap or jigger and mix it with water about half and half and swish it in your mouth, especially before or after eating acidic things. It helps. You can order this from Vitacost.com. You should also take it internally.
Another source of silica I recommend to take internally iis Solaray Bamboo extract capsules which are available from Vitacost.
http://www.vitacost....CFa9_Qgod73kABg
I prefer to take this dissolved in some water. I take half a capsule at a time with meals, for a total of one capsule a day.
I like these two silicas better than BioSil or JarrowSil, which are made from sand.

Type II collagen helps too. I take Swansons Chicken Sternal Type II Collagen dissolved in water with some Swansons ascorbyl palmitate.
http://www.swansonvi...250-mg-120-caps I take six capsules of collagen dissolved in water with a half capsule of the palmitate, twice a day on an empty stomach. This helps teeth, bones, and cartilage.

Other than that, vitamin D, vitamin K, and avoiding acids as much as possible are good for teeth. Eating a steamed green vegetable a day is good for teeth.

If you want to use xylitol pure for dental hygiene, you can buy packets of it from Swansons.com. You mix it with water and use it as a mouthwash.

Someone needs to get that there are health conscious consumers that don't want many of the inactive ingredients in dental products. For that matter, why did the company that purchased Novamins basically make it less available unless you want fluoride too? That's bad.

Edited by Luminosity, 28 August 2013 - 06:28 AM.


#27 bugme

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:15 PM

"The addition of dietary K2 changes the quality of saliva in another surprising way that fights tooth decay. The saliva of patients who have cavities tends to rob the teeth of minerals, according to another elegant experiment performed by the maverick dentist. When saliva from patients with active tooth decay was mixed with powdered bone or tooth chips, minerals moved from the tooth or bone into the saliva. The experiment was repeated with saliva from the same patients after they were treated with Vitamin K2. Then, minerals moved from the saliva into the bony tissue.
After the pancreas, Vitamin K2 in humans exists in the highest concentration in the salivary glands. When rats are fed only K1, nearly all of the Vitamin K in their salivary glands exists as K2. Vitamin K2 accomplishes two things here. It reduces the number of cavity-causing bacteria, and it provides dentin with the menaquinone needed to activate MGP and osteocalcin. Once those proteins are activated by K2, they develop “claws” that grab onto calcium to deposit it where it’s needed. That mechanism alone could explain the tendency for minerals to be drawn into tooth tissue in the presence of Vitamin K2–rich saliva.
Once Price recognized the value of Vitamins A, D, and K2 in treating tooth decay, he largely stopped drilling and filling teeth, except in cases where pain from a large, open cavity called for a temporary filling. Instead, he used a combination of high-vitamin cod liver oil (source of Vitamins A and D) and grass-fed butter oil (source of K2) as the foundation of his protocol for healing cavities. This protocol not only stopped the progression of tooth decay but completely reversed it by causing dentin to grow and remineralize, sealing what were once active cavities."
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#28 mustardseed41

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 09:12 PM

I've been taking K2 for almost 5 years now. Always trying to get at least 100mcg of the MK7 form. During this time I've added 500mg magnesium citrate, 5000iu d3. Along with a ton of other supps...col.
My favorite K2 supp is from vitacost http://www.vitacost....nced-k2-complex
It has the exact ratio of the higher cost one that Life Extension sells.
One VERY interesting thing has happened in this time. I had a couple of cavities that needed to be filled but never got around to doing it. What has happened is that both cavities have remineralized. I no longer have pain in these teeth and you can see where the cavities have been covered up during this process.

Yes, Mercola can be a tool at times but this is a great interview.


Edited by mustardseed41, 29 August 2013 - 09:14 PM.

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#29 Luminosity

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 05:33 AM

Thanks bugme and mustardseed.

Just going what I am doing now, I used to have pains in my teeth but I usually don't now

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#30 bugme

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 03:25 PM

As soon as my new K2 order arrives (Complementary Prescriptions, 15mg), I´ll try a week of 45mg daily, to see if I notice any effect on my teeth (enamel, dentin, plaque, etc.)...

During that week, I'll also increase my D3 daily intake (to 10.000iu), since the K2 mega-dose guarantees me a good "backup", as I consider critical the ratio of D to K...

Edited by bugme, 31 August 2013 - 03:25 PM.






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