17 replies to this topic

[nameless]

Just got back some blood work, and noticed these results which were a bit off:

Ferritin, Serum -- 214 (30-400)
Zinc -- RBC 917 (822-1571)
D - 1, 25 -- 83.2 (10-75)

She also checked B12, Folate, and Homcysteine --

B12 -- 445 (211-946)
Folate -- 11.6 > 3.0
Homocysteine --14.1 (0-15)


And some others (think these are okay)...

Mag RBC -- 5.7 (4.2-6.8)
Hemoglobin A1c -- 5.0
Testosterone Serum -- 546 (348-1197)

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So, to me, it looks like Ferritin is too high, as I recall 50-100 being closer to optimal. I guess I should try IP6 again.

Although Zinc is tagged as normal, I recall from a past blood test that 1250 was considered median, so it looks like I am bit low there. And no idea about 1, 25. If I take D to get my serum in the 32-35 range then my 1, 25 sometimes creeps a bit higher than normal. I've asked doctors about this, and they either say they have no clue what it means, or even if it's high, it doesn't matter. Does anyone know if there any signficance to 1,25 being high?

My homocysteine looks to be higher than it usually is. Is B12 a tad lower than optimal there? Not sure why I am always loaded up with folate either, as I don't take a multi.

[Dorian Grey]

I believe the "serum" tests for minerals are often faulted as tending to be rather transient and fluctuate quite a bit; this is what the hair analysis crowd seems to think anyway. The beauty of the ferritin test is that it does not. Ferritin can give a false positive when inflammation is high, but i believe this happens less often than some may think and this is a cautionary note for those with chronic inflammatory diseases.

Ferritin into triple digits is indeed less healthy than more youthful numbers, and anything over 200 would certainly justify a full iron panel (transferrin saturation, serum iron and iron binding capacity).

http://www.healtheiron.com/ is a wonderful resource for reading about the risks of "moderately" elevated iron.
Their Iron Science Library: http://www.healtheir...science-library
Iron Reduction Therapy: http://www.healtheir...duction-therapy
and Insulin Resistance: http://www.healtheir...xidative-stress
pages are full of studies, perhaps cheery-picked, but are compelling reading all the same.

Don't know how you feel about needles... Particularly the rather BIG ones they use at the blood bank, but blood donation is the shortcut to youthful iron levels. Each donation should drop ferritin by about 30 points, so even this rout would take a year to get you into the sweet spot of 50.

I've taken IP6, and it too is effective when taken properly (on a very empty stomach with a full glass of water). I never took more than 2/500mg caps per day, one first thing in the morning and the second last thing before bed, and I also cycle off a couple days/week or supplement LOW DOSE zinc and mag-citrate with lunch to avoid any shortages of these important min's. 10mg/zinc and 100/mag citrate worked well for me. A pill cutter is helpful in supplementing these minerals at lower doses. Too much Mag-Citrate (over 200mg) can give loose bowels and too much zinc (50mg/day) is simply too much. 10-25mg/day is plenty.

For folate, aside from my B-Complex, and I don't like anything with more than 400mcg/folic acid/day (polyp formation?), I've found dietary sources like Caesar salad and avocado to be palatable options. Folate may be one of those things that jumps around a lot depending on what you've eaten in the last few days too so perhaps some minor tweaking is all that is needed.

I like sublingual B-12 (low dose) and pop one of these under my tongue before I drive to work several times a week. Never been tested, but low dose B-12 is supposed to be safe, and it is very cheap.

B-Complex is supposed to help with homocysteine, but I would bet lowering iron would be helpful too.

I can attest from personal experience, lower iron is better than living with elevated levels... My insulin resistance, fasting hypoglycemia and post meal glucose spikes are all improved since I got on the low iron bandwagon. My fountain of youth!

Edited by synesthesia, 14 September 2013 - 01:01 AM.

[nameless]

Thanks for the reply.

Regarding lowering ferritin, I think IP6 is my only route. I am fine with needles, but my blood is a bit too icky for them to accept (past positive babesia test), so they won't take donations from me. I did try IP6 in the past, but stopped over a concern that it may lower my other minerals too (like zinc). I took it with meals, as taking pills on an empty stomach doesn't agree with me much. I could try 500mg daily, and get a retest down the road. I probably couldn't get a full iron panel done, as to my doctor my iron levels are fine... it'd need to be over or under range.

As for zinc and mag, I have taken them in the past, but for this test I wanted a base level, so hadn't taken either for a while. Mag levels look pretty good to me... zinc not quite as good. I always find supplementing zinc annoying because of the zinc-copper ratio thing... never really know if I should be taking copper too.

And for folate, my levels always come back high. I used to think it was due to the multi I was taking, but haven't taken a multi in a couple of years now.

[blood]

And for folate, my levels always come back high. I used to think it was due to the multi I was taking, but haven't taken a multi in a couple of years now.

Have you tried a methyl folate + B12 supplement for homocysteine reduction?

http://www.lef.org/p...eduction_01.htm

http://www.iherb.com...ggie-Caps/42778

Edited by blood, 14 September 2013 - 03:14 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Taking IP6 with food/meals prevents effective iron chelation as the IP6 gets loaded up with dietary minerals in the gut and doesn't make it into the blood with any chelation capacity left. This results in IP6 becoming an "anti-nutrient" that absorbs important dietary minerals without much chelation effect in the body.

When taken on an empty stomach with water, IP6 enters the blood intact and starts binding its favorite minerals including free/labile iron (the most dangerous kind!) in serum plasma. This takes a load off transferrin and increases the bodies iron binding capacity keeping dangerous free iron out of circulation, which is the beauty of IP6. It cleans up free iron and stops the damage it is causing immediately, even while stored iron (which IP6 has slower effect on) remains high.

From what I've read, this process occurs rather briskly and any shortage of valuable minerals (zinc, mag, calcium) in plasma are quickly replaced as they are abundant in most diets (as long as they are not bound up by consuming too many foods high in phytic acid with meals!). Here's a bit about this from a great paper on IP6: http://www.pjoes.com...7.2/283-290.pdf
Effect of Inositol Hexaphosphate on Lipopolysaccharide-Stimulated Release of TNF-α from Human Mononuclear Cells

"This strong chelating capacity of IP6 associated with its six reactive phosphate groups has in the past been regarded as responsible for antinutritional side effects of IP6. however, more recent studies have contradicted those opinions by stating that in evaluation of antinutritional effects of IP6 various factors should be considered, such as the ratio of IP6 to overall mineral content of the diet [7]. It has been shown that the antinutritional effect of IP6 could be manifested only when large amounts of IP6 were consumed together with a diet poor in trace elements, but if essential minerals were present in the proper ratio with respect to IP6, there was no modification of mineral balance [7].

Studies in rats fed IP6 showed no significant toxic effects on serum or bone mineral deficiency [8]. Furthermore, the analysis of IP6 effect on mineral status in rats fed for a long time period through a second generation to evaluate possible effects related to a pregnancy and lactation revealed no decrease in mineral bioavailability, with the exception of lower zinc levels in bone [9]. In addition, rats fed an equilibrated purified diet with IP6 showed about 10-fold higher concentrations of zinc in bone compared to the control animal group [6]. It has also been reported that a high IP6-containing diet did not negatively affect rat plasma copper and zinc concentrations [10] and no relation of zinc deficiency with IP6 has been observed in women who ingested vegetarian or meat-based diet with equal IP6 contents"

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I understand your difficulty taking supplements on an empty stomach, but IP6 has always been one of the kinder empty stomach supp's I have used. I think if you tried diluting it (in your stomach) by increasing the amount of water you take it with may be helpful. Best of Luck to you!

Edited by synesthesia, 14 September 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[nameless]

Thanks for the replies. When I took IP6 previously, it was with a small meal, like lunch, or when I had a snack, apple or something like that. Perhaps that would be an okay compromise where it'd still chelate iron, yet not get deplete any minerals I happen to be eating during a big meal. I am unsure if it's okay to take around the same time I take medications though, which makes dosing tricky.

As for methyl folate + B12 supplement for homocysteine reduction... haven't tried anything as of yet (got blood work yesterday). Although when I use to take a multi with folate/B12 (AOR multibasics) my homocysteine was less than it is now ... 8ish, if I recall correctly. I have a trial bottle of jigsaw magnesium here, which has Quatrefolic + B6. I figure I can try 1-2 pills of those, with some B12, and I should be covered. I am just unsure if I need folate at all.

Still curious what is going on with my Vitamin D (1, 25) if anyone has any ideas. Also wondering if my zinc is truly low (appears to be, to me), based on average levels. I suspect perhaps it's the Altace I take causing it, but I think all ace inhibitors may affect zinc in some way (at least theoretically). I also get symptoms of prostatitis, yet antibiotics don't seem to do much... and my psa is fine. Hence why I asked my doctor to get my zinc levels checked again, as there could be some correlation there.

[Dorian Grey]

I've had crazy prostate symptoms off and on all my life, even when I was young. I didn't get the "low-flow" issues, but rather a cramping pain that would occur more or less out of the blue and last for 5-10 minutes or so. Zinc didn't help much, and the friendly folks at Acu-Cell don't seem to like zinc for prostatitis either.
http://www.acu-cell.com/znk.html

"Prostatitis is invariably found with cellular zinc levels that range from above-normal, to excessively high.
Many alternative practitioners include zinc as part of their therapy trying to treat prostatitis, however only
Benign Prostatic Hypertrophy (BPH), or an enlarged prostate, is sometimes related to below-normal levels
of zinc. At higher levels, zinc becomes pro-inflammatory, being a main reason why those who supplement
extra zinc for prostatitis generally worsen their symptoms. Instead, any approach that lowers zinc will more
likely resolve the condition."

----------------------------

Interestingly... My Prostate problems have largely resolved since I've been an iron watcher/reducer and I can even drink coffee now, which historically would have triggered a massive prostate flair. Perhaps IP6 chelated my zinc a bit lower, or perhaps iron may be involved with prostatitis as well as all the other trouble elevated iron can cause?

Edited by synesthesia, 14 September 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[nameless]

Whatever is going on down below for me feels sort of like a urinary tract infection that comes and goes. A urologist said it was prostatitis or prostatodynia, while two family doctors said it was prostatitis. Doesn't really matter, as basically all that translates to is: 'we don't know what is causing the pain, or how to help it'.

I am not sure if lowering my zinc even more would help the issue or be a good idea, as if any lower, I'll flag as below range. And from what I read, numbers should be at least around 1200 anyway to be considered average zinc intake. I hardly think my zinc levels could be too high.

[Dorian Grey]

Well, when all other suspects have been ruled out Sherlock Holmes says "the one which remains must be the truth".

I suffered with a crampy prostate all my life and the only change that seemed to have given me consistent relief was when I started lowering iron through blood donation and taking IP6. Association does not equal causation, but it's been working for me and this is what counts.

I wanted to mention, if you can't donate blood, you might be able to get a referral to a hematologist for therapeutic phlebotomy. A GP will see iron that is elevated and poo-poo any possibility of it causing symptoms, but a hematologist who sees elevated iron will say "let's get it down and see what happens".

[JBForrester]

Nameless - can I just ask, do you have more subcutaneous fat than visceral? I wonder if an abundance of subcutaneous fat hence more cellular fat storage can cause ferritin levels to be high? What is your exercise regimen like and are you male or female, if you don't mind me asking (males usually have more visceral, less subcutaneous fat)?

[nameless]

I wanted to mention, if you can't donate blood, you might be able to get a referral to a hematologist for therapeutic phlebotomy. A GP will see iron that is elevated and poo-poo any possibility of it causing symptoms, but a hematologist who sees elevated iron will say "let's get it down and see what happens".

Ideally, yeah, I would do that. But I have an HMO. That means, I need my family doctor to sign off on any specialists I see. I can't simply go to a hematologist on my own. I really doubt my family doctor would agree to it, as to him, my iron is perfectly fine. To most doctors, so long as ferritin comes back tagged as 'normal', all is good. They don't even typically test for high ferritin, but look to see if you are anemic.

[nameless]

Nameless - can I just ask, do you have more subcutaneous fat than visceral? I wonder if an abundance of subcutaneous fat hence more cellular fat storage can cause ferritin levels to be high? What is your exercise regimen like and are you male or female, if you don't mind me asking (males usually have more visceral, less subcutaneous fat)?

Male, and I don't particularly have a lot of fat anywhere (that I can tell). And doctors usually say I am skinny (but I expect that is simply because they have so many fat patients).

I normally weigh about 165-170 (currently 165) and am 6'1''. I exercise probably 4-5x weekly, exercise bike -- if I had to guess, on average 30-40 min. each day? I play video games while exercising, so it varies based on what game I am playing... probably not a perfect type of regimen.

[nameless]

For those who take IP6, do you recommend any particular brand? When I used to take it, I first tried the Jarrow powder mixed with water, which led to stomach upset. I then tried Enzymatic Therapy's Cell Forte, 400mg/daily, with no issues. It's a little more expensive though.

The latter also has extra Inositol. I forget if that's a good or bad thing.

Swanson's has it cheapest, although when they don't list a source, I get nervous, and think immediately of China.

And about how long does it take to lower ferritin? It may be some time before I can get a retest, so prefer not to accidentally make myself anemic.

[fntms]

My ferritin came out at 400, vs max 330 for a man...
I never drink alcohol, do lots of exercice, it must be linked to my relatively high red meat intake (and maybe also mushrooms?)

So...I've just made my first blood donation!
And ordered some IP6...

I wonder if this high level is somehow linked to my recuring prostate issues (similar to bacterial prostatitis) as suggested in this thread...and maybe also to my palpitations?

[Dorian Grey]

Congratulations on getting pro-active on the iron... I've been tweaking my supplement stack and eating healthy for years, but nothing changed my health for the better more than when I De-Ironed my little bodkin, I really feel 10 years younger.

Have you seen the benefits to iron reduction on the Health-e-Iron page here?:http://www.healtheir...duction-therapy

The more you read, the more you realize "this may be it"... The fountain of youth!

Every time I would talk with my doc about my prostate, he would mention "bacterial prostatitis"... I tried anti-B's several times with no real results. On reading around on the matter, I came to believe "congestive prostatitis" was looking more like what was going on. Purging the evil humors (ejaculation) regularly (twice a week) is what helped me more than anything else. Got to take my sweetheart out to dinner more often to maintain therapeutic levels of prostate hygiene, but it's worth it. When ever I get too busy and slack off on this, I notice it quite quickly. The burning/discomfort is back in a flash.

Perhaps in addition to opening your account at the blood bank, you might look into visiting a sperm bank? They can cure prostatitis better than any doctor!

[hav]

Still curious what is going on with my Vitamin D (1, 25) if anyone has any ideas. Also wondering if my zinc is truly low (appears to be, to me), based on average levels. I suspect perhaps it's the Altace I take causing it, but I think all ace inhibitors may affect zinc in some way (at least theoretically). I also get symptoms of prostatitis, yet antibiotics don't seem to do much... and my psa is fine. Hence why I asked my doctor to get my zinc levels checked again, as there could be some correlation there.
...
Whatever is going on down below for me feels sort of like a urinary tract infection that comes and goes. A urologist said it was prostatitis or prostatodynia, while two family doctors said it was prostatitis. Doesn't really matter, as basically all that translates to is: 'we don't know what is causing the pain, or how to help it'.

I've seen literature that indicates that bacterial action can affect the Vitamin D Receptor causing Vitamin D (1, 25) bloodstream levels to elevate. If its not prostate or urinary tract, it might be something going on in the digestive tract.

Howard

[nameless]

I've seen literature that indicates that bacterial action can affect the Vitamin D Receptor causing Vitamin D (1, 25) bloodstream levels to elevate. If its not prostate or urinary tract, it might be something going on in the digestive tract.

Howard

Very possible, although my docs say not to worry about it. I've had Lyme + friends, prostatitis and belly issues, so bacteria would make sense... not sure which one is the cause, but I probably have plenty to choose from.

[fntms]

Has anyone tried scutellaria / scullcap for iron chelation ?
Seems quite potent:
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19108897