22 replies to this topic

[MercuryAX]

Hi all, just thought I would share a little about my background and how I'm trying to treat myself. Perhaps other people on this site could relate and share suggestions of their own.

All of my life, I've suffered from occasionally crippling depersonalization and/or a loss of sense of touch with reality. It can best be described as "I feel locked up inside my own head, isolated in the world". I am very empathetic to others' emotions, but I sometimes half-deny that other people really exist. I have a decent number of friends, but in the past I have associated myself with negative people and sometimes I have trouble relating. Also, I sometimes have a bit of trouble focusing on my work. Occasionally I'll have moments where I feel very in-touch, very focused, and with a sort of euphoric feeling. This normally happens with music or good socialization - and my brain overall performs at its best levels. Perhaps this is a case of shy extroversion. I relate my life to Chris Cornell, who was always a sort of a loner and felt constantly lost like I do. He ended up doing a lot of drugs to numb this feeling, and I have used pramiracetam especially to help nullify my consistent negative emotions.

I have also always felt there was something wrong with me - holding me way back from my potential. I am a computer science major in college (a year behind in credits, cause of some of these issues). I consider myself to be a highly intelligent person but lacking in some social understanding - although this has greatly improved lately.

What I have noticed in terms of treating this:

Coffee - Makes me very in-touch and sociable, if it's a good brew and I don't drink it too much. This could be the caffeine as well as the MAOI substances in it raising dopamine levels.

Focalin (Dexmethylphenidate) - While I'm not currently prescribed it, the times I've had it made me feel "as focused as I feel I should be", Makes me feel more alert and in-touch with people

Pramiracetam - Seems to calm me down emotionally, while "speeding up" my thoughts immensely. I feel like I can process things like a computer, essentially. Keeps me focused to the point where I don't care about my messed up self.

Eating a mostly plant-based diet appears to help my wakefulness and concentration.

Hopefully other people can relate to this post, or offer up some more info. Thank you for reading.

[celebes]

You most likely have some combination of mu opioid underactivity and kappa opioid overactivity. Dynorphin excess blocks NMDA receptors and also inhibits monoamine release in your midbrain reward/motivation structures leading to the symptoms you're experiencing. There are other threads around here on how to treat this dysfunction.

(Sort of) alternatively, it could just be depression.

Edited by celebes, 21 September 2013 - 09:21 PM.

[formergenius]

I'd suggest dropping the coffee, as it may be anxiogenic, which may worsen DP. Though by all means; drink it if it doesn't cause/exacerbate anxiety for you.
There's literature about Modafinil being used in DP with (marginal?) success IIRC, so that could be a proper replacement for Focalin.
I find Coluracetam helps with DP, though I haven't tried Pramiracetam myself. Perhaps worth a shot switching Prami with Colu?
On occasion I find Damiana also helps with DP. Nothing else springing to mind right now though. Good luck

[MercuryAX]

You most likely have some combination of mu opioid underactivity and kappa opioid overactivity. Dynorphin excess blocks NMDA receptors and also inhibits monoamine release in your midbrain reward/motivation structures leading to the symptoms you're experiencing. There are other threads around here on how to treat this dysfunction.

(Sort of) alternatively, it could just be depression.

This is very interesting, I have never even considered the opioid receptors in terms of cognition. What exactly would I search for, though, in terms of treatment?

Formergenius - It really depends on the brew for me. Dunkin Donuts brand makes me want to break out into song and dance and be happy and sociable. Others just make me a workaholic or anxious. I will give modafinil a try as well, and coluracetam when I get that.

[penisbreath]

Clinically, insomuch as you can trust the whole thing, I believe Lamictal has the most evidence backing it -- though even then results tend to vary. I hear Nardil can help too, though that's probably an extreme measure. clonazepam also shows some success, though it personally made me feel *more* detached.

It's something I experience too and the deficit of reliable treatment options is really dispiriting.

[celebes]

This is very interesting, I have never even considered the opioid receptors in terms of cognition. What exactly would I search for, though, in terms of treatment?

There is a good overview of the options in these threads:

http://www.longecity...tionwithdrawal/

http://www.longecity...-bulkgroup-buy/

[nowayout]

I don't think what you describe is what is called depersonalization in psychology, which is a term of art for something very different (I have in fact had feelings of depersonalization - it is a loss of sense of your own self that is extremely painful and almost by definition very hard to describe and in fact even hard to remember, but it most definitely wasn't like what you are describing, which sounds like a loss of connection to others - something quite different indeed.) i don't know what you would call what you describe, though. Attacks of solipsism? So I doubt therapies for depersonalization as such would be applicable for whatever it is that you experience.

Edited by nowayout, 23 September 2013 - 02:37 AM.

[Tom_]

Ignore the opioid rubbish. Opioids may be involved but there are no evidence based treatments using them and only one study supporting the use of Naloxone.

You aren't describing depersonalization. Depersonalization is a subjective feeling of having change in which the world has become vague, dreamlike, less real, or lacking in significance. None the less, you want advise on treating depersonalization disorder:

First Line:
CBT, relaxation, mindfulness and grounding techniques.

Second line:
SS/NRI or Modafinil + the above

Third line:
SS/NRI and Modafinil or Lamotrigine

Fourth line:
Phenlzine or Noloxone.


You more likely have a mild depressive disorder, in which case stage 1 applies to you anyway.

[Tom_]

Ignore the opioid rubbish. Opioids may be involved but there are no evidence based treatments using them and only one study supporting the use of Naloxone.

You aren't describing depersonalization. Depersonalization is a subjective feeling of having change in which the world has become vague, dreamlike, less real, or lacking in significance. None the less, you want advise on treating depersonalization disorder:

First Line:
CBT, relaxation, mindfulness and grounding techniques.

Second line:
SS/NRI or Modafinil + the above

Third line:
SS/NRI and Modafinil or Lamotrigine

Fourth line:
Phenlzine or Noloxone.


You more likely have a mild depressive disorder, in which case stage 1 applies to you anyway.

[MercuryAX]

Yeah, perhaps you're right about it not being depersonalization. What would be more accurate then? Does depression really describe a really crazy feeling of isolation?

What I'm noticing more is...my base mood is sorta unstable. I will feel really happy and content with life, and then randomly become apathetic about everything that's good in my life. I'm also very prone to hypomania of sorts...like if I listen to some music I will get this ridiculous rush. Often times I'll use music to judge my base mood...how manically I react to the sound.

Sound like anything you might know? I also often have a tough time sitting still and focusing, so ADHD might be on the list, too.

Thanks

[nowayout]

I don't know, maybe you are just on the normal spectrum, even if you are not in the middle of it. Most people, especially young adults, get mood swings, feel isolated from time to time, enjoy times of euphoria and high energy as well as episodes of low mood and apathy.

Are you functioning in your work or studies and do you have friends? If so, you'll probably be fine.

I would stay away from the drugs like pramiracetam and focalin, as well as party drugs. The mind normally does a good job of stabilizing itself in the medium to long-term, but unsupervised (and in many cases supervised) use of psychoactive drugs or pharmaceutical stimulants, euphoriants, etc., could damage you, especially if you are young, if your mental stability is at all perhaps slightly marginal to begin with, which appears to be a concern of yours already. Maybe some of the moods that worry you are already aftereffects of your use of these drugs.

Edited by nowayout, 28 September 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[▲420MD]

If you have touched synthetic cannabinoids, or maybe even marijuana. Rimonabant is your answer. Cannabinoid downregulation results in depersonalization. I have experienced it acutely and over months after chronic sythetic cannabinoid use.
If you induced it with Psychedelics, MDMA, etc I would go for a strong 5HT antagonist, 5HT2A, 5HT2C specfic if it was psychedelics.

For some, it lies in the endorphin system. Naltrexone is the only opiate antagonist a pharmacy is going to have. Hospitals have naloxone and Suboxone comes with naloxone but you want to antagonize your receptors not agonize them - which suboxone does.
Low dose naltrexone seems to help alot, others use something similar to a rapid opiate detox and put people under anesthetic and inject massive amounts of naloxone into you.

From personal experience, It has something to do with endorphins and endocannabinoids not so much monoamines unless you feel like your in fight-or-flight mode which is not DPD.

If you can tolerate the Naltrexone or Rimonabant, it is worth it.

[jadamgo]

Yeah cannabinoids are definitely linked to this in many cases. If you can reset your cannabinoid receptor levels with rimonabant, this may be a more rapid way to fix the problem than simply quitting cannabinoids and waiting for the system to return to normal.

Mindfulness is also highly recommended -- it's the skill of being aware of and connected to whatever experience you're having in any moment, and that's the opposite of depersonalization.

[MercuryAX]

I've never touched any cannabinoids besides perhaps oleamide a few times, although that didn't do anything at all. I do hope other people reading this thread could benefit from those suggestions, though.

Starting to think that people are right - it's not depersonalization disorder, it's actually more likely a lack of dopamine. I don't have a problem feeling in touch with reality so long as I'm feeling awake and alert, and I quite often find that even with enough sleep and a fairly good diet (dairy and simple sugars weeded out) I will randomly lose focus and go crosseyed if I stay still. Intense exercise seems to really help. Also, dopaminergic substances seem to make my social skills a million times better. I can carry a conversation properly and I can sit still and just talk. Modafinil seems to be helpful for this purpose, although it's hard to come by in large amounts, nor do I want to take it chronically.

Arguably this would point to symptoms of adult ADHD, but I don't have problems with organization or forgetfulness. But it's frustrating how I feel kinda tired, slow, and out of touch unless I move around a lot, especially if I don't have time to go to the gym, etc. People have told me that I CLEARLY act like I have ADHD, so who knows?

In addition, it seems that a lot of new drugs end with the three letter string "ant". Is there a trend for naming certain chemicals based on the time they're discovered? For instance, before I saw all "ant" suffixes, everything seemed to end with "am". Ie. racetAM, sunifirAM, lorazepAM...and I'm pretty sure those three have significant chemical differences...

Cheers, everyone.

Edited by MercuryAX, 03 October 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[jadamgo]

Have you looked into ADHD-PI or, even more likely, Sluggish Cognitive Tempo?

[▲420MD]

Are you sure that was oleamide or someone didn't just say it was oleamide? Oleamide is a sticky, greasy oil that is almost impossible to use.

Depersonalization literally feels as if your outside your body, observing your arms, legs, computer screen through what I could describe best as a "TV" or "screen", at worst your vision can literally zoom away from your body and thats what gets the neurologists giddy. Derealization is a dreamlike feeling. They are weird disorders, I really feel mine was resolved mostly with noopept and not even that much. At a time when noopept had just arrived on the US market I went through a gram with choline and afterwards had no drug cravings or depersonalization.

It seems like a broad spectrum thing and really it's awful to treat. You have to hop between benzos, antidepressants, sedatives, naltrexone, weird stuff. Never take anti-psychotics I promise they will make it 100x worse. Please.

[Galaxyshock]

Coffee actually contains opioid mu-receptor antagonist compounds. You may want to look into naltrexone or naloxone.

[cargocultist]

I'm a little bit late to this discussion I've experienced a cluster of symptoms around ADD, depression and derealization. The thing that's currently helping me a lot is (high dose) nicotine via e-cigarettes, the substance as well as the habit. Norepinephrine, which is released by nicotine, at higher doses is a post synaptic glutamate antagonist and I believe that is the mechanism of action.

I've had similar but smaller benefits from dextromethorphan (DXM) at a 30mg dose which is similarly antagonistic to glutamate via nmda antagonism. For me there is clearly a u-response curve with DXM although I haven't tried higher doses it would certainly contribute to derealization. I don't use it because it's not very easily available in capsule form and because it gave me some gastrointestinal problems.

I really can't handle caffeine at all by the way. You may want to try to quit.

[_alex_]

You mentioned that a lot of this you felt all your life, in many of the things you describe I recognize myself. I used to dig for reasons why I function differently then others, self medicate and then at some point I realized that a lot of this is just me comparing myself to the majority which happens to be quite different from me. I'm not saying you do not have some issues or imbalance in your body but you should not exclude the fact that there might be more to it. You seems like you are fairly functional in life anyway so I don't think you have any major mental problems, but If your not certain you should get a professional to evaluate you and not this forum. Everything is not a disease to be treated with pills and everybody experience setbacks emotionally in their lives.

I live in my own head, am quite introverted but super empathic of other peoples emotions. To the brink of other peoples moods causing me anxiety. I have a hard time relating to other people because I'm so different but it doesn't keep me from having friends. It does make me feel like a loner though and always stuck in my own head.I always felt something wrong with me as well and that I was holding back my potential. All the stress concerning these thoughts made it hard to focus on things in my life. I see it as a inability to separate feelings that are realistic or not. I went through a period of self medication and drugs like most people with emotional problems.

One thing to remember is that you can have these problems and feelings but still be a intelligent and talented individual. Your ego builds you these walls around your issues but you have to find a way to accept them. Or you will always be stuck there no matter the amount of substances you put in your body.

I think you should look into some CBT like suggested above and work a bit on your self issues. Remember medicating yourself does not help the fact that you feel that there is something wrong with you, and if this has been a problem most of your life you need to come to terms with it in other ways also. I think you should read up on a bit of psychology and if you never done it, take a MBTI (meyers-briggs) test, maybe you will learn something new about yourself.

Edited by _alex_, 17 November 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[MercuryAX]

I think at the time I created this topic, I was definitely more depressed, as I said. Triacetyluridine has helped me a lot - I feel so much more in-touch with the world and people, and mood is a lot better. That being said, I'm glad people are discussing this and trying to find a solution.

Is depression often co-morbid with DP, as anxiety is? I wonder if a lack of dopamine can lead to some symptoms as well.

[mrnootropic]

If you have touched synthetic cannabinoids, or maybe even marijuana. Rimonabant is your answer. Cannabinoid downregulation results in depersonalization. I have experienced it acutely and over months after chronic sythetic cannabinoid use.


For some, it lies in the endorphin system. Naltrexone is the only opiate antagonist a pharmacy is going to have. Hospitals have naloxone and Suboxone comes with naloxone but you want to antagonize your receptors not agonize them - which suboxone does. If you can tolerate the Naltrexone or Rimonabant, it is worth it.

 

 

Yeah cannabinoids are definitely linked to this in many cases. If you can reset your cannabinoid receptor levels with rimonabant, this may be a more rapid way to fix the problem than simply quitting cannabinoids and waiting for the system to return to normal.
 

 

Hi there MD420 & Jadamgo , i've suffered from weird DP(Depersonaliztion) symptoms due to my past cannabis use, which was 5 years ago.

However i once tried a synthetic and legal cannabis called ''Spice'', this it what triggered some of the  problems, such as mental fatigue and Mild DP symptoms. Cannabis use just prolonged and made all my symptoms worse.

 

I cannot get a hold of Rimonabant, it has been taken off the shelf in the UK. (I hate it when this happens), Why put it on the shelf and make it legal to sell in the first place ? If your just going to take it off the shelf and prevent people from buying it..

 

Do you have any other Alternatives ??

Im 100% sure that 50% of my symptoms are due to Synthetic & Actual Cannabis.

I need to find a way to heal whatever damage ive done.

 

Ive also had symptoms triggered from Saliva Divinorum use (i used it 10-15 times, a total of only 15 grams though), which can also cause Depersonalization .

Im going to try Low Dose Naltexone to help recover from my Saliva Divinorum Use.

 

Saliva is what triggered the Depersonalization, and again it was the Cannabis use that made it worse and eventually cannabis itself caused Depersonalization whenver ingested or smoked.

 

But i need something to help me heal from the Cannabis & Synthetic cannabis use.

Cannabis, Synthetic cannabis & Saliva Divinorum are the only legal and illegal drugs ive ever done, so i know for a fact they are the culprits. Ive been eating healthy for 8 years, my diet is fine and i dont do any other drugs and never have done.

 

Any help or input is appreciated..  BTW, Ive only just realised this week what ive been suffering from for like 5 years. Ive just ignored it for so long but now im looking into healing myself.

Edited by Mr.Nootropic, 04 June 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[groentjes]

Interesting post. I am also experiencing feelings of depersonalization, it got so bad that I had to quit university and this made me very very  depressed. Anyway I have been trying many supplements,  some will give an improvement but will worsen other things and others will only work for a while. Will try some of the things suggested here.

I don't use drugs (used weed in highschool but that is years ago) and I don't really drink (a glass of wine occasionally) so substance use cannot be the cause.

[groentjes]

what is Triacetyluridine ? Is it on prescription ?