56 replies to this topic

[Guardian4981]

I don't think I really have ADD, I can focus on a task for hours.

But the title of your thread "lethargy, apathy, lack of motivation and feelings" is myself 100%.

I wouldn't be quick to say your issue is Testosterone. In my case my T is fine, I haven't had it tested per sey, but I have a good amount of muscle mass for my frame without alot of effort at the gym. My chest hair grows too fast! I also have measured my balls and found they are larger then average and I have a more then healthy volume when ejaculating. The problem is the motivation and libido which is not there, I usually have to get off just for the sake of keeping it regular.

I also wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a dopamine issue just because you have tried a few things. I have tried some things that are supposed to be good for dopamine like uridine and it seemed to only help the serotonin side of things. I think its a very complex system.

With a TSH of 3.5 I thought perhaps my issue was borderline sub clinical hypothyroidism, but when I imported some Thiroyd it actually seemed to only make my issues worse, thinking perhaps there was an adrenal issue I added some supporting supps like royal jelly and ginseng, those made me even worse!

I now believe that my issue is and has always been a dopamine problem, even when I was a kid I had issues with being assertive enough and such. One supplement that seems to help is maca, I believe maca lowers prolactin and raises dopamine, however if I take it too long it seems to rebound and I feel worse. So I use it a couple days a week and for those days I feel better.

I am trying anything and everything to see what may help. My blood tests show no issues with glucose, cholesterol, blood cells, etc. The only minor issue was a elevated urea, however creatinine was actually low which is odd.

Cholinergenics as well as serotonin supps seem to only make me feel worse, which again leads me to believe its a dopamine issue.

This morning I ordered catuaba and gynostemma, both have some people who claim they help dopamine. Well see, but I have tried other things in the past with no help.

[deeptrance]

This morning I ordered catuaba and gynostemma, both have some people who claim they help dopamine. Well see, but I have tried other things in the past with no help.

If you're correct about your dopamine hypothesis then you'd probably benefit from an MAO-B inhibitor like rasagiline. There are also quite a few herbs and other substances that have weak reversible MAO-B effects, and you can find an incomplete list of these by looking up MAO inhibitors on Wikipedia.

The direct amino acid precursor of dopamine is l-tyrosine, which you can easily obtain online or in stores. Many people prefer to use phenylalanine rather than tyrosine, it's an additional step away from becoming l-dopa but it's an essential amino and it serves many functions, so using it can allow the body to "choose" how to use it. I don't have an opinion as to which is preferable, it depends on the individual. My own experience is that tyrosine has a kind of stimulating effect, which I don't get from DLPA (d,l-phenylalanine).

Many supplements and medications are dopaminergic via many mechanisms. Examples include l-theanine, phenibut, tianeptine, and memantine.

One thing I'd caution is to not get too hung up on the idea that a simple "issue with dopamine" is the cause of your situation. We're much more complex than that and if you're truly deficient in dopamine or dopaminergic neurons or your dopamine receptors are downregulated or... on and on... then that's probably a symptom of some other underlying condition.

I would suggest a trial of low dose buspirone and reboxetine.

Reboxetine likely to be ineffective:

[A] meta-analysis showed that an antidepressant, reboxetine (marketed by Pfizer in Europe, but not in the U.S., under the names Edronax, Norebox, Prolift, Solvex, Davedax or Vestra) doesn’t work. Not only does it not work, it really doesn’t work, and it turns out that Pfizer hadn’t published data on the putative antidepressant from 74% of their patients. Some people have reportedthat the study found that reboxetine was even "possibly harmful," but that’s not quite true. What the study did find is that reboxetine produced more side effects (noted as "adverse events") than placebo (as might be expected), but with no positive effects at all. While many antidepressants on the market today are not great, most are effective in around 60% of patients; reboxetine turns out to be even worse than that.

http://blogs.scienti...ent-in-science/

Edited by deeptrance, 12 November 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[magniloquentc0unt]

i have tried: L-tyrosine (precursor), Tianeptine (releaser), Methylphenidate (reuptake inhibitor), Rhodiola (MAOB),
Methylphenidate (ritaln) is the golden standard of "strong DA reuptake inhibition", and up to 60mg, it did not do anything tangible, besides making me a bit more chatty.
I remember how fluoxetine, years ago, increased my cognition and energy level to a stellar extent, compared with ritalin. It left some scars thou, and i wish not to go back to SSRIs.
Anyhow, the substances i feel most seem to be serotonergic, in some sense. Bacopa monnieri and Theanine (theanine is a very unclear substance) for example.
also, im very socially anxious and my libido is high, with a problem of delayed ejaculation which might be due to the anxiety or to an "over abundance" of serotonin

[Ark]

i have tried: L-tyrosine (precursor), Tianeptine (releaser), Methylphenidate (reuptake inhibitor), Rhodiola (MAOB),
Methylphenidate (ritaln) is the golden standard of "strong DA reuptake inhibition", and up to 60mg, it did not do anything tangible, besides making me a bit more chatty.
I remember how fluoxetine, years ago, increased my cognition and energy level to a stellar extent, compared with ritalin. It left some scars thou, and i wish not to go back to SSRIs.
Anyhow, the substances i feel most seem to be serotonergic, in some sense. Bacopa monnieri and Theanine (theanine is a very unclear substance) for example.
also, im very socially anxious and my libido is high, with a problem of delayed ejaculation which might be due to the anxiety or to an "over abundance" of serotonin

Want to make SSRIs more potent check out Milk Thistle (careful!)

[magniloquentc0unt]

So, little update.
Ive been put on testosterone replacement therapy. 5g cream a day for the next 3 months to "see hwo it goes".
My testosterone was "ok" the past year on a couple of blood samples taken 5months apart, it was pretty much in the middle of the range.
This year however, it was 8.1 nmol (out of range) and a month after (this month) 12 nmol (just within range).
Personally i do not know what to expect from it and i think it might be pretty risky. Still, much more """socially acceptable""" than antidepressants.
Anyhow, i was unaware of the link between testosterone and dopamine. This might be something...

[NeuroNootropic]

So, little update.
Ive been put on testosterone replacement therapy. 5g cream a day for the next 3 months to "see hwo it goes".
My testosterone was "ok" the past year on a couple of blood samples taken 5months apart, it was pretty much in the middle of the range.
This year however, it was 8.1 nmol (out of range) and a month after (this month) 12 nmol (just within range).
Personally i do not know what to expect from it and i think it might be pretty risky. Still, much more """socially acceptable""" than antidepressants.
Anyhow, i was unaware of the link between testosterone and dopamine. This might be something...

Did you get your LH and FSH tested? Estradiol? TRT shuts down your body's production so it might be a bit risky. What link did you find between testosterone and dopamine?

[magniloquentc0unt]

Im pretty sure i got tested for all of these but unfortunately, for some reason, when i asked for a copy, i got a watered down version with precise data along the lines of "pretty low" or "just within range"
If i remember correctly, the doc said that my results were "interesting", this because of testosterone, free testosterone and albumin. Apparently theres sort of a fix ratio between the three, usually, ratio that appears to be fucked up in my case.
Anyhow I dont have sources at hand and im tight on time, but i believe testosterone and dopamine are proportionally related, just as serotonin is proportionally related to prolactin, and how prolactin and testosterone are inversely proportional, this at least was my understanding

[NeuroNootropic]

Hey magniloquentc0unt, any updates on how the cream is going for you?

[magniloquentc0unt]

hey there and sorry for the late reply, christmas n all
so its now 25days im on that cream and its being interesting.
it does give a certain overall boost, stronger (not stone strong but stornger) and more frequent erections too.
Cognitively, i dont necessarely feel quicker or more agile, but i do feel somehow better.
There has be no contras yet, besides the first 3-4 days of extreme headache (which was extremely amplyfied by drinking alcohol, something i rarely suffered before).
The Pros are ok but not necessairely strong enough to justify the shutting down of my balls, the monetary expenses, the daily applying of the cream and the fact that ill have to do it for life.
So, long story short, i do feel A BIT better but i dont feel I NEED IT or that it is what i asked for.

I have a blooddraw scheduled in 2 months, basically after 3 months cream, and i do not know how to proceed.
Ive read on a not particularly reliable source that, if you had """decent""" amount of testosterone before, you shouldnt have much problem jumpstarting the testicles after theyve shut down.
Apparently shut down happens around the first month.

I think the next thing ill research is the relationship between BDNF, dentrite growth and testosterone. I've come to realize/believe that my problems are for the most part cognitive and derived from frustration and lack of self satisfaction (higher sphere / abstract reasoning skills LOST due to either MDMA or SSRI)

Edited by magniloquentc0unt, 29 December 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[Keizo]

hey there and sorry for the late reply, christmas n all
so its now 25days im on that cream and its being interesting.
it does give a certain overall boost, stronger (not stone strong but stornger) and more frequent erections too.
Cognitively, i dont necessarely feel quicker or more agile, but i do feel somehow better.
There has be no contras yet, besides the first 3-4 days of extreme headache (which was extremely amplyfied by drinking alcohol, something i rarely suffered before).
The Pros are ok but not necessairely strong enough to justify the shutting down of my balls, the monetary expenses, the daily applying of the cream and the fact that ill have to do it for life.
So, long story short, i do feel A BIT better but i dont feel I NEED IT or that it is what i asked for.

I have a blooddraw scheduled in 2 months, basically after 3 months cream, and i do not know how to proceed.
Ive read on a not particularly reliable source that, if you had """decent""" amount of testosterone before, you shouldnt have much problem jumpstarting the testicles after theyve shut down.
Apparently shut down happens around the first month.

I think the next thing ill research is the relationship between BDNF, dentrite growth and testosterone. I've come to realize/believe that my problems are for the most part cognitive and derived from frustration and lack of self satisfaction (higher sphere / abstract reasoning skills LOST due to either MDMA or SSRI)

Well who knows if you would feel great at the higher end of the scale. We might have something of a similar problem anyway, I haven't measured my testosterone yet though, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was on the low side. I basically have no energy for anything... Many reasons for this I guess, but neither exercise nor stimulants seem to work very well. Some days I am just weak in every way, annoyed and whiny. Now I have quit benzodiazepines earlier this year, but that only makes me suspect hormonal imbalances or something else that's deeply wrong even more. I've gotten asthma and worsened allergies since then.......for example. Improvements in stress-levels and cognition have been slow for the most part since I quit the benzos, I don't think time is anyone's friend.

Who knows if a purposeless life can create these kinds of pathologies. I think there is need to look at that as well, for myself anyway.

You should definitely look to Cerebrolysin, or perhaps Noopept if you think it's a cognitive thing caused by say past drug-use (those two are actually similar in my experience, only Noopept is more stimulating but much less effective). Anyway Cerebrolysin seems to cure stress like mad, and act like a strong anti-depressant of some sort. I've only used 5x5ml 1 month ago, but effects seem to last for a long time even so.

Edited by Nume, 29 December 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[magniloquentc0unt]

Hey Nume, thanks for the answer and sorry for tha late reply, mustve forgotten... Anyhow cerebrolysin ROA scares me a bit and i think its something not really use here in switzerland, but ill keep in mind.
Im at the 2 months mark with testosterone gel and i can say that testosterone is probably not my problem. Stronger erections yes, a "somewhat younger" overall feel, but the lack of energy, demotivation and dissatisfaction is still there.
I must admit, tough, that my word recall and verbal fluency seems faster, but that might be due to the mix of bacopa/gotukola/ashwaganda ive been taking for the past 2 months.

Edited by magniloquentc0unt, 03 February 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[addx]

Prozac(flouxetine) is the only SSRI with 5HT2a(the psychedelic-LSD serotonin receptor) antagonism which is infact an antipsychotic feature. All atypical antipsychotics are 5HT2a antagonists.

So, I do believe you should focus on 5HT2a antagonism.

My concepts predict serotonin to facilitate a measure/emotion of integration with something. In that sense, integration with "good" causes dopamine inhibition providing a mechanism for satiety of "good". This is facilitated by the inhibiting serotonergic neurons, mainly the 5HT1 family while 5HT2a seems to facilitate subconscious satiety or in other words a measure of integration with the "bad". Integration with the "bad" does not cause inhibition but rather agitation and 5HT2a serotonergic neurons are infact activating, unlike other serotonergic neurons. They activate the dopamine circuitry that is meant to learn control of the "bad" with the intent of disintegration - this is anxiety.

Now, this is all interesting but the cascade actually starts a bit earlier with kappa opioid neurons which mediate their action through direct blockage of dopamine circuitry that descends from the inhibiting serotonergic neurons(5HT1 family) in mesolimbic circuits, then through 5HT2a activation which activates dopamine circutry that provide anxiety and also through NMDA deactivation which provides dissociation for better stress endurance and a dissociation with the "real" which also contains the integrated "bad".

Anyway, agomelatine is one known AD that is not an SSRI but rather a melatonin agonist but aside from that it is also a 5HT2a antagonist which I believe is the reason why it does have benefits in some cases. The melatonin agonism just annoys and makes it into a bad sleep aid. Anyway, I had a very good mood during a combination of memantine, coaxil and agomelatine. I was not able to replicate it with just memantine and coaxil, and given some of these new findings I might give agomelatine another try and this time I might experiment with it during day time. However the liver toxicity and melatonin action will make it just that, an experiment. Luckily I have read that 5HT2a receptors downregulate from both agonism and antagonism which might give agomelatine a chance to make a lasting change.

Edited by addx, 03 February 2014 - 02:24 PM.

[lammas2]

Isn't agomelatine a 5-HT2c antagonist?

[addx]

Yep, you're right, my bad, I guess I need more nootropics :/

Both prozac and agomelatine are 5HT2c antagonists

Edited by addx, 03 February 2014 - 06:06 PM.

[Introspecta]

I have been using Mucuna Extract 40% L dopa just one 500 mg capsule per day and am finding it has strong antidepressent qualities too it. I'm actually surprised how powerful it is. Sometimes it boosts libido a bit too much similiar to adderal. I didn't start noticing these strong effects until about 3 days after taking it. I think anyone with low energy, lack of pleasure and depression should give it a good try.. I'm reading that sometimes its good to stack with 5 htp to avoid an imbalance though so far I havn't noticed any issues.

[Max Headroom Incident]

I suffer from the same type of depression as OP ("atypical depression") complete with fatigue, amotivation and brain fog. However, SSRI's are as useless as a sugar pill in my case. Dopamine seems to be what I'm lacking, as amphetamines and tianeptine have proven most effective for me so far.

Hormones are an often-overlooked source of mental health problems IMO. Every month I watch my gf transform from a sweet, reasonable soul to a raging psychotic (sorry, hon!) maniac due to PMS. Estrogen and testosterone are far from the only hormones that can affect mood and energy levels. Cortisol, adrenaline, orexin, prolactin, oxytocin and the thyroid hormones can all have an impact on wellbeing too.

[magniloquentc0unt]

I have been using Mucuna Extract 40% L dopa just one 500 mg capsule per day and am finding it has strong antidepressent qualities too it. I'm actually surprised how powerful it is. Sometimes it boosts libido a bit too much similiar to adderal. I didn't start noticing these strong effects until about 3 days after taking it. I think anyone with low energy, lack of pleasure and depression should give it a good try.. I'm reading that sometimes its good to stack with 5 htp to avoid an imbalance though so far I havn't noticed any issues.

i had tried the Now foods Mucuna with 15%L-dopa last year and found it ineffective. Anyway, im going to give it another go from today, 3-4 caps a day or so, as i seem to be pretty unresponsive to most dopaminergic substances.
I mean, why not right? afterall ive got tons of half finished bottles...

I suffer from the same type of depression as OP ("atypical depression") complete with fatigue, amotivation and brain fog. However, SSRI's are as useless as a sugar pill in my case. Dopamine seems to be what I'm lacking, as amphetamines and tianeptine have proven most effective for me so far.

Hormones are an often-overlooked source of mental health problems IMO. Every month I watch my gf transform from a sweet, reasonable soul to a raging psychotic (sorry, hon!) maniac due to PMS. Estrogen and testosterone are far from the only hormones that can affect mood and energy levels. Cortisol, adrenaline, orexin, prolactin, oxytocin and the thyroid hormones can all have an impact on wellbeing too.

you're very right about the hormones, my other half also has this "problem".. and is in complete denial about it!
Anyhow, i cant wait for the next month for the next blood samples to be drawn and see whats going on and being able to tell the doc: TRTs ok but its not what im after.

Also, something i might not have stated, i feel that Social Anxiety is also a pretty heavily marked trait of mine.. and it might also be where it all began

[magniloquentc0unt]

Theres something ive been thinking about lately....
while my problems seems to be dopamine related from a theoretic point of view (reward motivation concentration drive etc), ive had no response to most things dopaminergic... exception being Tianeptine.
on the other hand, there could be a serotonin dominance... i can literally fall asleep in every situation and am not bothered by things that everyone else sees as problems... interesting is that i do have a social anxiety component that would speak against this serotonin dominance....
i think that ill try combining dopaminergic leftovers (in a harmless way, possibly) over a week or two to see if i can push the balance

[neuve]

Prozac(flouxetine) is the only SSRI with 5HT2a(the psychedelic-LSD serotonin receptor) antagonism which is infact an antipsychotic feature. All atypical antipsychotics are 5HT2a antagonists.

So, I do believe you should focus on 5HT2a antagonism.

My concepts predict serotonin to facilitate a measure/emotion of integration with something. In that sense, integration with "good" causes dopamine inhibition providing a mechanism for satiety of "good". This is facilitated by the inhibiting serotonergic neurons, mainly the 5HT1 family while 5HT2a seems to facilitate subconscious satiety or in other words a measure of integration with the "bad". Integration with the "bad" does not cause inhibition but rather agitation and 5HT2a serotonergic neurons are infact activating, unlike other serotonergic neurons. They activate the dopamine circuitry that is meant to learn control of the "bad" with the intent of disintegration - this is anxiety.

Now, this is all interesting but the cascade actually starts a bit earlier with kappa opioid neurons which mediate their action through direct blockage of dopamine circuitry that descends from the inhibiting serotonergic neurons(5HT1 family) in mesolimbic circuits, then through 5HT2a activation which activates dopamine circutry that provide anxiety and also through NMDA deactivation which provides dissociation for better stress endurance and a dissociation with the "real" which also contains the integrated "bad".

Anyway, agomelatine is one known AD that is not an SSRI but rather a melatonin agonist but aside from that it is also a 5HT2a antagonist which I believe is the reason why it does have benefits in some cases. The melatonin agonism just annoys and makes it into a bad sleep aid. Anyway, I had a very good mood during a combination of memantine, coaxil and agomelatine. I was not able to replicate it with just memantine and coaxil, and given some of these new findings I might give agomelatine another try and this time I might experiment with it during day time. However the liver toxicity and melatonin action will make it just that, an experiment. Luckily I have read that 5HT2a receptors downregulate from both agonism and antagonism which might give agomelatine a chance to make a lasting change.

agomelatine is only toxic to the liver for something like 1% of poeple, i was on it for 4 months and i was doing regular blood work and everything was good, still if you take agomelatine you should monitor your liver for something like 2months if after that nothing bad happen then agomelatine will be safe for you

I have been using Mucuna Extract 40% L dopa just one 500 mg capsule per day and am finding it has strong antidepressent qualities too it. I'm actually surprised how powerful it is. Sometimes it boosts libido a bit too much similiar to adderal. I didn't start noticing these strong effects until about 3 days after taking it. I think anyone with low energy, lack of pleasure and depression should give it a good try.. I'm reading that sometimes its good to stack with 5 htp to avoid an imbalance though so far I havn't noticed any issues.

i don't think people should take l-Dopa because it's neurotoxic, you will worsen your problems in the long run

Edited by neuve, 05 February 2014 - 12:56 PM.

[addx]

Theres something ive been thinking about lately....
while my problems seems to be dopamine related from a theoretic point of view (reward motivation concentration drive etc), ive had no response to most things dopaminergic... exception being Tianeptine.
on the other hand, there could be a serotonin dominance... i can literally fall asleep in every situation and am not bothered by things that everyone else sees as problems... interesting is that i do have a social anxiety component that would speak against this serotonin dominance....
i think that ill try combining dopaminergic leftovers (in a harmless way, possibly) over a week or two to see if i can push the balance

Serotonin modulates both "bad-being" and "well-being", meaning it modulates social anxiety. In the same way, more serotonin - more anxiety. The split i believe is in the subcategories of serotonin receptors with 5HT1 being responsible for modulating well being while 5HT2 family being responsible for modulating "bad-being" or fears. They compete. 5HT2a serotonergic neurons are actually activating, not inhibiting. And suicide victims from SSRIs infact suffered from the extra serotonin signaling at 5HT2 receptors which lasts for about 2 weeks until the extra signalling forces them to downregulate which reduces suicidality.

Dopamine as such also provides/facilitates "urging" behavior for both sides - euphoria/elation and for anxiety and as such dopamine reuptake inhibitors also cause both anxiety and euphoria depending on the base levels.

[magniloquentc0unt]

hello addx and thank for (both) your replies.
so following your model i could find useful substances that modulate these two families of 5ht neurons... have you experience with any?

[addx]

most SSRis actually do target some of 5HT1 family for agonism(activation) other than inhibiting serotonin reuptake. I do not consider these worthy of try because the serotonin reuptake inhibiting is too general - as I explained it activates the wrong family as well by increasing serotonin availability, so it also causes many horrendeous sideeffects

atypical antipsychotics mainly target 5HT2 family for antagonism(inhibition). these are used for controlling bipolar and schizophrenia manic episodes and often have other functions as well. it's hard to get these without actually having the disorders and I've looked at some of them and most also have too much side-effecting action at other receptors just as agomelatine does.

I'm acutally conviced the answer is more upstream than both of them, in the kappa opioid receptors, there's a thread about a group buy of JDTic and if you read it from the start you'll find explanations of lethargy, apathy and lack of motivation explained via kappa opioid receptors and studies that prove it. read some and see how it sits with you.

i'm just a diletant, mind you, so we all have to research a bit for ourselves, i can only point you in some direction.

[PuertoO]

If it's on the low end, you are a definite candidate for TRT: http://www.mens-horm...els-in-men.html (IIRC, the low end on my lab report was more or less the average for 75+)

Coincidentally, I will see my doc for this exact topic tomorrow (took blood samples on Friday). Seeing that he wants me to get off Fluoxetine (on principle I guess, as I don't have any truly bothersome side effects). However, unlike you, I have precisely 0 qualms about getting on TRT should the levels be as low as I fear they might.

Do you have a source for the T increase with Moclobemide?

I just digged out my last, 2 year old hormone panel and low and behold, Albumin and TSH are above the reference values (even if only slightly). If this got any worse, I will sue my old GP for not taking action. My total T is in the 65-75 year range.

Really?

So, lets say free test levels are in the bottom quartile of normal range. Does that mean it is too low?

[magniloquentc0unt]

most SSRis actually do target some of 5HT1 family for agonism(activation) other than inhibiting serotonin reuptake. I do not consider these worthy of try because the serotonin reuptake inhibiting is too general - as I explained it activates the wrong family as well by increasing serotonin availability, so it also causes many horrendeous sideeffects

atypical antipsychotics mainly target 5HT2 family for antagonism(inhibition). these are used for controlling bipolar and schizophrenia manic episodes and often have other functions as well. it's hard to get these without actually having the disorders and I've looked at some of them and most also have too much side-effecting action at other receptors just as agomelatine does.

I'm acutally conviced the answer is more upstream than both of them, in the kappa opioid receptors, there's a thread about a group buy of JDTic and if you read it from the start you'll find explanations of lethargy, apathy and lack of motivation explained via kappa opioid receptors and studies that prove it. read some and see how it sits with you.

i'm just a diletant, mind you, so we all have to research a bit for ourselves, i can only point you in some direction.

thank you, ill look into it as soon as i have a bit of chill time
anyhow, i think amisulpride might be interesting, afterall its used, in lower doses, also for dysthymia

[addx]

All dopamine receptor antagonists have a chance of causing permanent tardive dyskinesia. It's not something to "try". IMO, steer clear of them.

Edited by addx, 05 February 2014 - 02:42 PM.

[nupi]

So, lets say free test levels are in the bottom quartile of normal range. Does that mean it is too low?

Probably. The challenge is however that are at least two ways to measure free T and they yield vastly different results :(

[magniloquentc0unt]

little update:
stopped with testosterone replacement therapy: after three months of gel cream my values were good, above average, but still not therapeutic, and i noticed no particular effect on mood or cognition.
gonadotropin shot followed by bloodcheck two days after, levels skyrocketed and went 4x, still no particular effect on mood or cognition. I discussed it with the doc and he said i should've felt more than great at those T levels.
therefore decided to stop it, since it only slightly heped with my resistance at the gym (which is something im not particularly fond or interested in) and it IS detrimental to ones chances of having progenies.
since my testosterone levels were normal two years ago, i assume it was lowered by the 6months course of tianeptine i had just before the bloodtest in which my testosterone resulted so low. there should be a connection between cortisol and testosterone but i have no time to research that right now.
Anyhow, jumping on the Aurorix train today, we'll see...

Edited by magniloquentc0unt, 31 March 2014 - 12:18 PM.