89 replies to this topic

[Luminosity]

http://www.longecity...olds-obamacare/

Posted Originally 29 June 2012 - 06:27 PM

This [Obamacare] is very bad news in reality . . .

I support the goal of insuring more people but this won't really do that in any good way. Sometimes if you have nothing good to offer people, leaving them alone is the best you can do. [emphasis added]

As for what Justice Roberts was up to, he might erroneously believe that he is helping people, like he is starting Social Security. Only people who have never had contact with the business end of Medicaid would be able to believe that. This is the problem with having a government run by privileged people. They are lacking crucial pieces of information.

I notice the smiling faces of some who support Obamacare on the TV shows. Everyone of them has good private health insurance. They have no idea of the Kafka-esque nightmare that awaits people who don't have that privilege. Many medical supply businesses will not take Medicaid and will not take cash from Medicaid patients. If you ask Medicaid for instance, which wheelchair stores will accept Medicaid, they say they don't know. If you call the stores directly, they will remember your voice and will not deal with you. Because of things like this, when I had secondary Medicaid coverage, I just paid out of pocket for some expenses because it wasn't even o.k. to ask if certain suppliers would take Medicaid.

Many doctors won't see people who have Medicaid, and will not take their cash. Almost no dentists will take Medicaid patients and will not see them for cash. If a doctor will see a Medicaid patient, it may be to use them as teaching tools, without their knowledge or consent. My friend had reconstructive surgery by a well-known surgeon. He happened to have operated on several of my other friends with good results. On this friend, who had Medicaid, he brought in two medical students to do the work, without really explaining to her what was going on. It it didn't go well. She didn't even finish all the procedures and goes around with part of her body half-formed.

If you have to choose between car repairs, or food and health insurance, how ridiculous is that? Will uninsured people have to go underground like illegal aliens? Will doctors be forced to document your insurance status? Will some just elect to do that? What about wholistic people who pay for all their care out of pocket anyway? Will spending thousands on unused health care be required of them?

Posted 01 July 2012 - 05:50 PM

Mr. Happy, your system [Australia] sounds pretty good. You don't understand that the government in the US won't try to set up a good system. They will just bilk people on behalf of the insurance companies. For instance, if you make more than $14,000 a year, you will not be eligible for free insurance. And you can be fined for not having any. And it could well cost $500-$1,000 a month for insurance. And you need to read my earlier post about the free government insurance we have now. It will be like that. [emphasis added]

Posted 05 July 2012 - 04:46 PM

[Obamacare] may actually make health care for low income people much worse while pretending to do otherwise. It may also make everyone's experience more like being on Medicaid due to dilution of resources, Medicare cuts etc.

This is what they would have done if they really wanted to insure more people and cut costs:

Ban tobacco
Legislate drug costs like they do in Canada and most of the world
Ban all you can drink soda fountains
Ban large sodas, upsizing, value meals, etc.
Ban advertising of junk food and fast food to children, as they do in some foreign countries
Ban hydrogenated oil, the single worst food ingredient on the planet, progenitor of heart attacks and so much more
Ban MSG
Move towards organic agriculture
Ban feeding arsenic, routine antibiotics, growth hormones and animal parts to farm animals.
Move towards Integrated Pest Control to reduce pesticide exposures in our homes, schools, businesses and public spaces
Mandate walking paths and bike ways in future construction. Add them to existing spaces whenever the opportunity arises.
Add wholistic medicine and acupuncture as options under insurance and government programs
Encourage midwives and natural childbirth
Move resources from expensive hospital care to hospice and home care type programs--take care of people's human needs instead uselessly intervening for the dollars.
Ban GMO foods
Add special social workers/doctors/nurses to the health care system to give some people the attention and validation they currently get from seeking unneeded tests, hospitalizations, operations, i.e., work with human nature in an intelligent fashion.

After ten to twenty years of this, we could insure everyone we need to with the savings. In the meantime, we could insure a lot of people by:

A) taxing rich people
B) ceasing building highways to nowhere, funding Solyndras, having stupid wars, etc.

If we as a nation had the maturity to consistently fund government health care at a high enough level and not to misuse the power therein, we could eventually persuade people to sign up for single payer system. It must be said that we lack that maturity and that restraint. Always have. Probably always will.


Posted 10 July 2012 - 05:54 PM

I believe that we should insure everyone but that Obamacare will fail to do that. [emphasis added] Even if it was fully implemented, you would not be able to get free health care under it due to asset/income limits and budgetary shortfalls. The little accessible health care that medicaid recipients and low income people get right now will also be diluted to the point of ridiculousness.

_____________________________________________________________

Now that you've read it, what do you think of Obamacare?

Edited by Luminosity, 02 November 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[machete234]

I just have a simle question: Why shouldnt it work just like in europe or most other first or second world countries?

Banning tobacco will make the wrong people very rich (prohibition again), who in their right mind can propose such a thing?

Edited by machete234, 02 November 2013 - 08:06 PM.

[tunt01]

I just have a simle question: Why shouldnt it work just like in europe or most other first or second world countries?

It will work in a way that is somewhat similar to Europe. But it's also exactly why the US shouldn't do it.

Given the ability to find a good price/service on an airplane flight from New York to LA, American citizens should be able to order medical services with transparency, competitive pricing, and based on information that explains what a provider's service record is. The idea that the country needs to centralize most decision making to a panel of goverment appointed bureaucrats is appalling.

It's basically the democrats in the US saying, "We know better than the stupid masses what they need, so here is your one size fits all healthcare plan."

And the republicans were just as bad by failing to offer a good alternative.

Barack Obama is awful and everyone under 40 who voted for him basically just sealed their financial fate. Going to be slaves paying off debts for his healthcare plan and the mountain of debt for entitlements a generation to come.

[machete234]

Barack Obama is awful and everyone under 40 who voted for him basically just sealed their financial fate. Going to be slaves paying off debts for his healthcare plan and the mountain of debt for entitlements a generation to come.

Why do they have to pay debts for this plan, they have to pay debts because all the country lived on credits until that didnt work anymore?

Health care is financed by automatically taking it from everybody's pay check.

[sthira]

Now that you've read it, what do you think of Obamacare?

Healthcare.gov

When someone without health coverage gets urgent—often expensive—medical care but doesn't pay the bill, everyone else ends up paying the price.

That's why the health care law requires all people who can afford it to take responsibility for their own health insurance by getting coverage or paying a fee.

People without health coverage who pay the penalty will also have to pay the entire cost of all their medical care. They won't be protected from the kind of very high medical bills that can sometimes lead to bankruptcy.

[tunt01]

Why do they have to pay debts for this plan, they have to pay debts because all the country lived on credits until that didnt work anymore?

Health care is financed by automatically taking it from everybody's pay check.

Not in the US. A lot of it is on borrowed money.

[Luminosity]

machete,

Here is one example of what would be different in the US from other countries. Countries, like Canada, which pay for health care, negotiate drug prices down to around half of what they are in the US. The US will not do that. In the US, drug companies give contributions, or bribes, to politicians to not do that. Anywhere that other countries save money on health care, like by cutting out insurance companies, our politicians can be bribed not to do that. They usually are.

As for your question about smoking, I would.

When someone without health coverage gets urgent—often expensive—medical care but doesn't pay the bill, everyone else ends up paying the price.

That's why the health care law requires all people who can afford it to take responsibility for their own health insurance by getting coverage or paying a fee.

People without health coverage who pay the penalty will also have to pay the entire cost of all their medical care. They won't be protected from the kind of very high medical bills that can sometimes lead to bankruptcy. --Sthira

This pre-supposes that there are significant number of people who both a) choose not to buy health insurance and b) can afford to do so. That isn't true. There are actually plenty of people without insurance who don't frequent emergency rooms. Many people now are losing their insurance coverage because of Obamacare, which was predictable. They won't be able to get new coverage. Obamacare by its design won't provide more people with decent health insurance than the old system.

Edited by Luminosity, 04 November 2013 - 03:35 AM.

[tunt01]

When someone without health coverage gets urgent—often expensive—medical care but doesn't pay the bill, everyone else ends up paying the price.

ugh god, can we not have the talking point bullshit? non-payers at hospitals represent 6% of all hospital spending and that amount is HIGHER at hospitals than at all other providers in the healthcare system. it's complete scapegoat/sleight of hand/talking-point-bullshit to go down that road.

and obama/democrats know that's not the issue. if the major problem in healthcare was people showing up in the emergency room, than everyone could jus get a catastrophic plan for ER services and we'd have all our problems fixed. we wouldn't have to write a law requiring people to have prescription eye care coverage and every inch of health care coverage a person could ever dream of with unlimited spending levels.

the reason why health care is expensive is because it's expensive. drug companies charge 4-6x US citizens what they charge canadians in many cases. that's not 6%. that's 600%. everything is more expensive because more tests are ordered, more specialists are used, more technology is used, and that's more expensive. the system is designed to ring up higher bills, because everyone gets a cut. that's why it's more expensive. the design of the system is to create bigger bills.

everything else is tiny by comparison.

Edited by prophets, 04 November 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[JLL]

Wow, almost all of your suggestions to fix things are really shitty. Haven't you learned anything from failed socialist experiments?

"Ban tobacco"

About 90% of your list consists of banning things. Why don't we just ban all the things in the world you don't happen to like? Let's start with pizza, that's an unhealthy food right there. Oh I'm sorry, did you like pizza? Too bad, it's on JLL's ban list already.

"Legislate drug costs like they do in Canada and most of the world"

Yeah, and that ALWAYS works so well.

"Ban all you can drink soda fountains
Ban large sodas, upsizing, value meals, etc.
Ban advertising of junk food and fast food to children, as they do in some foreign countries"

What about buying several small meals, should that be banned as well? Looks like you want a *minimum* cost for meals. And which countries are those btw?


"Move towards organic agriculture"

Yeah, because the whole world can survive off organic agriculture (hint: it can't). And how exactly do you think organic is healthier anyway?


"Mandate walking paths and bike ways in future construction. Add them to existing spaces whenever the opportunity arises."

Yes, and mandate walking as well. 2 hours minimum mandatory walking per day. Report to your nearest officer.

"Add wholistic medicine and acupuncture as options under insurance and government programs"

Acupuncture, really? I think I should get a magnetic wristband under my government insurance too because I LIKE IT.

"Ban GMO foods"

Really, why?


"A) taxing rich people"

Yeah, because that ALWAYS works so well. Like in France. Why would the rich just stay put while you tax them to fund your shitty ideas?

Really, reading your post made me angry, it was so stupid.

[Luminosity]

What's your diagnosis?

[Layberinthius]

The whole system is fucked. Let it burn, its Rome all over again.

Edited by Layberinthius, 15 November 2013 - 01:56 AM.

[Layberinthius]

[Luminosity]

Says the guy in Australia.

[Ben]

Obamacare works perfectly (for Obama and other leftists.)

It is a means to transfer wealth from the productive to the non-productive. From the employed to the unemployed. And from the young to the old (unlimited healthcare for the old and dying--a potentially unlimited drain on the future youth of America.)

No wonder America's politicians excluded themselves from it.

It's an extremely destructive policy. Obviously. But that's the plan.

[maxwatt]

??? Obamacare is 100 percent private insurance companies. But they can no longer cut you off when you get sick. It is inefficient. Now I wonder why we have two systems, Medicare or Medicare Advantage for those over 65, and private insurance companies with a modicum of regulation for younger people. Never the less, Obamacare seems to work very well in Massachussets, and has for years, where it was called Romney-care.

Trust the Bumblecrats to mess it up, and the Repugnicans to obstruct without offering a viable alternative;.

[david ellis]

Obamacare works perfectly (for Obama and other leftists.)

It is a means to transfer wealth from the productive to the non-productive. From the employed to the unemployed. And from the young to the old (unlimited healthcare for the old and dying--a potentially unlimited drain on the future youth of America.)

No wonder America's politicians excluded themselves from it.

It's an extremely destructive policy. Obviously. But that's the plan.

I checked your link - I don't understand how the link supports your case.

The fact checker gave the link

Three Pinocchios



(About our rating scale)

Hint- Republicans thought it was a good idea - and the idea was incorporated into Obamacare 2012
Boehner has already signed up.

[nowayout]

I don't really see what you "told us so."

[Ben]

Obamacare works perfectly (for Obama and other leftists.)

It is a means to transfer wealth from the productive to the non-productive. From the employed to the unemployed. And from the young to the old (unlimited healthcare for the old and dying--a potentially unlimited drain on the future youth of America.)

No wonder America's politicians excluded themselves from it.

It's an extremely destructive policy. Obviously. But that's the plan.

I checked your link - I don't understand how the link supports your case.

The fact checker gave the link

Three Pinocchios


Hint- Republicans thought it was a good idea - and the idea was incorporated into Obamacare 2012
Boehner has already signed up.

Did I mention a specific party? I said Obama and other leftists.

The link was merely meant to be illustrative. If indeed, the link supporting a side point (that Obama and other politicians, on both sides, are excluded from Obamacare) is false, who cares?

This is what I want to assert:

Obamacare is a means to transfer wealth from the productive to the non-productive. From the employed to the unemployed. And from the young to the old (unlimited healthcare for the old and dying--a potentially unlimited drain on the future youth of America.) And that as such, it will work well, no matter how destructive it is as these are all goals of the leftists / atheists who thought it up.

[david ellis]

No wonder America's politicians excluded themselves from it.

I checked your link - I don't understand how the link supports your case.

The fact checker gave the link

Three Pinocchios


Hint- Republicans thought it was a good idea - and the idea was incorporated into Obamacare 2012
Boehner has already signed up.

The link was merely meant to be illustrative. If indeed, the link supporting a side point (that Obama and other politicians, on both sides, are excluded from Obamacare) is false, who cares?

I care. I thought it was very interesting that you used a link that didn't support your position.

I agree with you - Obamacare stinks. It is a republican idea, originated by the Heritage Foundation. So it is no surprise that it is inefficient. Don't be encouraged by democrats that hate Obamacare. Obamacare is better than nothing, so until something better comes along, it will do.

[rwac]

??? Obamacare is 100 percent private insurance companies. But they can no longer cut you off when you get sick. It is inefficient. Now I wonder why we have two systems, Medicare or Medicare Advantage for those over 65, and private insurance companies with a modicum of regulation for younger people. Never the less, Obamacare seems to work very well in Massachussets, and has for years, where it was called Romney-care.

Trust the Bumblecrats to mess it up, and the Repugnicans to obstruct without offering a viable alternative;.

But the weight of regulation is more than ever, the healthcare system is more socialized than ever. Moreover, obamacare hasn't even fulfilled it's stated objective of insuring more people.

Romney-care has one factor which obamacare is desparately missing: Romney himself apparently, because apparently it takes a whiz to manage these things...

[maxwatt]

The only thing worse than too much government regulation is no government regulation.

[sthira]

Now that you've read it, what do you think of Obamacare?

An estimated 47 millions women will gain access to women's health services, including preventive and wellness services. Many of Obamacare's new benefits for women are required by law to have no out of pocket payments. There aren't many cons for women. Obamacare also expands contraception coverage.

[Ark]

The problem with group pay is the fact our government will use it to give the government more power over personal liberty, for instance since we as a people pay for health care for joe smith we can decide now what he eats drinks and does, that can affect the bottom line will now be under the MANS control. Which is historically seen as a bad idea. That being said Health Care should just bill the government and we should not have to get insurance period. *(where will we get money for this... O I know... we could stop funding wars and the military complex and stop selling America to China)

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Edited by Ark, 01 December 2013 - 03:59 AM.

[Luminosity]

To Sthira:

Unless the Surpreme Court says it doesn't. Having all our health care under the government's control is not wise. What if the president was George W. Bush, Reagan, or Chris Christie, who cut funding for Planned Parenthood? Even worse, what if it was Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, or Rick Perry?

The benefits Obamacare created on paper may be just that. He doesn't even have a way to purchase health insurance on healthcare.gov in spite of hundreds of millions of your tax dollars being wasted. No one has ever wasted money like this man did. Eventually someone has to pay for this stuff and the healthcare money will have been spent on websites to nowhere. That's when the Obamacare will hit the fan. There will be rationing, and sudden changes in income and asset levels for Obamacare and medicaid eligibility. doctors will leave the country, retire or go cash only. On the news it said that in Massachusetts there's a seven week wait for newly diagnosed diabetic to get to their first appointment with a specialist. There are months long waits for surgery in England and Canada. I've known several people from England who were actively suicidal but couldn't get "sectioned" (admitted to a mental hospital) even though they wanted and needed to be there. They would have been admitted in the United States.

I'm a woman and you can't say there's no cons for women because you get some free birth control pills. There's so many more bad things going on; the loss of confidentiality, doctors losing their autonomy, centrally controlled medicine, long waits for appointments, doctors not telling you about treatments because the government doesn't want you to know about them, etc. Chances are you already had access to all the stuff you're talking about, at a sliding scale clinic or with a minimal co-payment.

You may have traded what was a workable health care system for some for one that works for no one cause someone promised you a free pap smear. It could very well turn out that that won't even be true.

Edited by Luminosity, 01 December 2013 - 03:41 AM.

[Luminosity]

From CBC News

Canadians With Mental Illnesses Denied U.S. Entry

Data entered into national police database accessible to American authorities: WikiLeaks

by Sarah Bridge September 09, 2011

More than a dozen Canadians have told the Psychiatric Patient Advocate Office in Toronto within the past year that they were blocked from entering the United States after their records of mental illness were shared with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

Lois Kamenitz, 65, of Toronto contacted the office last fall, after U.S. customs officials at Pearson International Airport prevented her from boarding a flight to Los Angeles on the basis of her suicide attempt four years earlier.

Kamenitz says she was stopped at customs after showing her passport and asked to go to a secondary screening. There, a Customs and Border Protection officer told Kamenitz that he had information that police had attended her home in 2006.

Kamenitz says she asked the officer how he had obtained her medical records.

A document completed by a U.S. Customs and Border Patrol officer says that at a secondary inspection at Pearson airport in Toronto, it was ascertained that Lois Kamenitz had 'attempted suicide in 2006,' and a medical clearance would be required for a further attempt to enter the United States. (Sarah Bridge/CBC)

"That was the only thing I could think of," she says. "But he said, no, he didn’t have my medical records but he did have a contact note from the police that [they] had attended my home."

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...entry-1.1034903

From the Toronto Star Thursday, Nov. 28, 2013

Disabled Woman Denied Entry to U.S. After Agent Cites

Supposedly Private Medical Details

A Toronto woman is shocked after she was denied entry into the U.S. because

she had been hospitalized for clinical depression.

by Valerie Hauch News reporter

Ellen Richardson went to Pearson Airport on Monday full of joy about flying to New York City and from there going on a 10-day Caribbean cruise for which she paid about $6,000. But a U.S. Customs and Border Protection agent with the Department of Homeland Security killed that dream when he denied her entry.

"I was turned away, I was told, because I had a hospitalization in the summer of 2012 for clinical depression," said Richardson, who is a paraplegic and set up her cruise in collaboration with a March of Dimes group of about 12 others . . .

Richardson said she had no discussion whatsoever with the agent at the airport about her medical history or background. A personal relationship breakup in 2012 caused her clinical depression and hospitalization (there was no police involvement) . . .

http://gta/2013/11/2...l_details.html#

Edited by Luminosity, 01 December 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[Application]

Obamacare works perfectly (for Obama and other leftists.)

It is a means to transfer wealth from the productive to the non-productive. From the employed to the unemployed. And from the young to the old (unlimited healthcare for the old and dying--a potentially unlimited drain on the future youth of America.)......This is what I want to assert:

Obamacare is a means to transfer wealth from the productive to the non-productive. From the employed to the unemployed. And from the young to the old (unlimited healthcare for the old and dying--a potentially unlimited drain on the future youth of America.) And that as such, it will work well, no matter how destructive it is as these are all goals of the leftists / atheists who thought it up.

Wow, what a bunch of incoherent, right wing spew! Insurance companies wrote Obamacare for their benefit. They quit killing for profit in the most raw ways in exchange for government mandated participation and unlimited ability to raise rates to cover the increased costs.

Like the OP said, the folks at the bottom are getting hurt by this too- Medicaid is is way broken and defunded already, even before the massive expansion that is about to hit. And, fully half the funding for Obamacare come from cuts to Medicare, the program supposedly funneling your money to the old and dying,

Edited by Application, 01 December 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[sthira]

I'm a woman and you can't say there's no cons for women because you get some free birth control pills.

Under Obamacare, you won't be dropped from coverage when you get sick. You also can't be denied coverage or treatment for being sick or charged more for being sick. And you won't be charged more for being a woman, either.

[Ark]

I'm a woman and you can't say there's no cons for women because you get some free birth control pills.

Under Obamacare, you won't be dropped from coverage when you get sick. You also can't be denied coverage or treatment for being sick or charged more for being sick. And you won't be charged more for being a woman, either.

How do will pull this off, o ya by twisting healthy people arms until they are forced into joining, making them responsible for others health. Sorry this does not make sense, we already pay taxes if this is the case we should socialize health field in the USA instead of semi....

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Edited by Ark, 01 December 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[sthira]

I'm a woman and you can't say there's no cons for women because you get some free birth control pills.

Under Obamacare, you won't be dropped from coverage when you get sick. You also can't be denied coverage or treatment for being sick or charged more for being sick. And you won't be charged more for being a woman, either.

How do will pull this off, o ya by twisting healthy people arms until they are forced into joining, making them responsible for others health. Sorry this does not make sense, we already pay taxes if this is the case we should socialize health field in the USA instead of semi....

Perhaps it doesn't make sense because you're healthy and may not currently struggle with health issues? I don't know you. But ask yourself what will happen to you if you get sick, you get injured, and then you can't work or cannot pay med expenses? We hope not, but eventually you, too, may grow older and sicker, and we hope you'll be capable of paying for the care you will need. Meanwhile, why deny care to others who are farther down the road?

[Ark]

I am 27 in good health and obviously i pay taxes and the government which builds super F 16 hornets, i'd rather that money go to curing all medical problems, I think we have a technological head start and should step up and cash in a few air craft carriers and pay for all medical health care in the USA. No need to make this a over complex.
Also it is un-American to force me to pay for your friends medical expenses i already give the government 1/3 of all my money , i say use that and leave the libertarian alone.

ENDLESS WARS(SCRATCH THAT)- End All Wars!

Edited by Ark, 01 December 2013 - 07:13 PM.