• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Phenibut Withdrawal - Advice/Help

phenibut nootropics withdrawal help advice sleep support ghb alcohol

  • Please log in to reply
66 replies to this topic

#1 Trippy 1

  • Guest
  • 65 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Washington
  • NO

Posted 11 November 2013 - 05:51 AM


What's up guys, this is my first post here and I'm looking for some good help and advice regarding phenibut. This will be my second time going through withdrawals and I'm trying to find a way to make it a little less miserable this time. I take phenibut for sleep problems and anxiety quite often, but as you know dependency and tolerance grow so fast with this nootropic. For me, it works better than any other drug for restful sleep and the afterglow is amazing.

My first withdrawal lasted about 7 days and peaked at day 5. I went for 6 days without one blink of sleep and was pretty strung out. I'm currently up to 5 grams at night in the form of capsules (10 500mg capsules). I was stupid and went cold turkey the first time I went off it and it was pretty miserable.

I'm designing a taper schedule to last a little over 2 weeks to minimize the effects of the withdrawal at 5/4/4/4/3.5/3.5/3/3/2.5/2/2/1.5/1/1/0.5/0.5/0.5 - All of these doses taken once a day at 7pm.

I have access to 5mg ambien (zolpidem tartrate) to help with sleep once things get bad.
Also, I take fish oil and multivitamins daily with a high protein diet.

I'm considering going to my doctor this week with the hope of getting a bezo or other medication. So far I've heard Gabapentin, Prozac, and Baclofen are good options to help withdrawal.

I've heard kava is a great help as well.

Do you have any suggestions to make it go a little smoother than last time?

I'm a busy guy with college and work and a harsh withdrawal would set me wayyy back.

Thanks in advance for any advice or suggestions,
Trippy 1

#2 TVO

  • Guest
  • 161 posts
  • 7
  • Location:Cerbral Cortex

Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:36 AM

Tapering off seems like a good idea, you should use melatonin to help get you to sleep.

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 Introspecta

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 55
  • Location:Massachusetts U.S

Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:19 AM

Picamilon helps quite a bit, L-theanine, Magnesium. If you can get your hands on neurontin or Lyrica they will pretty much mask all withdrawals. The last time I got off phenibut I had been on it for a year and 5 days of Valium took away all withdrawals. Depending on how long you've been on it tapering is actually much easier and less painful than some may think but if you've been on it for months there will still be some discomfort when tapering. There is a thread on M and M another phenibut casualty pretty much has all the info one needs for getting off it. Its quite extensive but has the info. http://www.mindandmu...enibut-casualty

#4 focus83

  • Guest
  • 216 posts
  • 21

Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:26 AM

I think your tapering schedule is alright and will make your withdrawal more bearable. In additon I advise you to get hold of Baclofen or Pregabalin but preferably the former. Baclofen will pretty much stop your withdrawal syptoms dead in their tracks. That's how good it is for Phenibut withdrawal. You might have to play around with the dosage a little since you were at a pretty high Phenibut dosage. I suggest you try 10mg first and if that's doesn't suffice you can go up to 25mg or 50mg.
Likewise, Pregabalin is another good option for your situation, but IMO a little less effective and with more side effects. Also, Pregabalin itself is known to induce rapid tolerance in some people whereas Baclofen, when taken orally, does not produce any tolerance to a significant degree. I can attest this personally.

In terms of supplements you might find Bacopa, Ashwaghanda or L-Theanine helpful, but I doubt these would be enough to keep you functional during withdrawal.

#5 Trippy 1

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 65 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Washington
  • NO

Posted 16 November 2013 - 05:34 PM

Thanks guys the taper is actually going really well so far. I'm down to my 3g dosage and I haven't felt anything yet. I'm sure once I get down to 1 or 0.5 it will get rough. But I got some picamilon and magnesium like you recommended. How would you dose the picamilon? I also got 30 0.5mg xanax that will hopefully mask the worst of the withdrawals. Unfortunately I couldn't get ahold of baclofen to lyrica. Thanks again guys!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#6 Introspecta

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 55
  • Location:Massachusetts U.S

Posted 16 November 2013 - 07:07 PM

I'd get down to a gram to 1.5 grams then throw the rest away and just use the xanax making it last at least 5 days. That only should do the trick but when you run out of xanax then you could use the picamilon and magnesium. Picamilon is a strange one to dose I'd just start off with 50mgs and see how it feels and go up from there dosing 3-4 times a day. I found it sedating one bottle I used and now i'm trying it again and sometimes find it stimulating while still relieving anxiety. It can cause irritability in some people so if that becomes an issue lower the dose. In all honesty though If I were you and I had that many xanax i'd immedietly throw the phenibut out and jump off at 3 grams and use the xanax, picamilon and magesium waiting as long as possible before starting detox. Real withdrawals don't start until 24 to 36 hours after last dose although insomnia can present itself sooner. Use as little xanax as possible through the day then dose 1-2mgs at night to sleep. This is me though because I know i'd end up taking xanax and phenibut together then end up even more screwed. So if you find yourself taking xanax and phen throw it away. Its good you didn't get Baclofen because its pretty much identical to phenibut and in my eyes no easier to taper with than phenibut. I ended up stuck on Baclofen when I tried to switch one time. Good luck!
  • dislike x 1

#7 Trippy 1

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 65 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Washington
  • NO

Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:32 PM

Ya I like your idea of just throwing the phenibut out soon. I already feel some w/d symptoms setting in 24 hrs after my 3 gram dosage so I could be pretty messed up. And I have the biggest job interview of my life coming up next week, so this came at a pretty bad time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have ambien for sleep too. And some vicodin if that would do me any good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#8 Introspecta

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 55
  • Location:Massachusetts U.S

Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:35 PM

Keep taking the phen until your interview then. I'm willing to bet you can drop to 1.5 grams without wd's dosing 3 times a day. Don't dose once a day or you'll have sleep issues. Can you keep the xanax around without taking until after your interview then right after interview jump off and start detox?

#9 Trippy 1

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 65 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Washington
  • NO

Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:38 PM

Okay I'll start spreading my doses around if you think that's a good idea. I usually only take my dose 3 hours before bed all at once so I can sleep good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#10 unregistered_user

  • Guest
  • 721 posts
  • 169
  • Location:Washington DC

Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:02 PM

I would recommend beginning the taper AFTER your job interview. Starting now and being in the midst of it during the interview may cost you the job, right? If your performance takes a hit? I would do what you have to do to remain on point and then begin your downward titration.

#11 Trippy 1

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 65 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Washington
  • NO

Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:04 PM

That's a good point. I was kind of thinking of tapering down now to make sure I don't make myself more dependent then taking a higher dose the time before the interview.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#12 rc897

  • Guest
  • 57 posts
  • -0
  • Location:toronto

Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:18 PM

just replace it with something with known dependency issues like Zopiclone.
  • dislike x 2

#13 Trippy 1

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 65 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Washington
  • NO

Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:20 PM

I could try that I just don't know if I could obtain any


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I already have ambien


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#14 Trippy 1

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 65 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Washington
  • NO

Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:34 AM

Withdrawals started kicking in around 1.5 grams. Not bad but still noticeable. I am going back to my normal dosage for tonight because I have an interview tomorrow and a presentation tomorrow that I need to perform well for. Hopefully that doesn't set me back to square one but I couldn't be all strung out for these events. Any more advice/input for when I start detox would be greatly appreciated, thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#15 BioFreak

  • Guest
  • 541 posts
  • 53
  • Location:Germany

Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:59 AM

tamper down more slowly.
use theanine.
don't use any agents that work on gaba receptors (picamilon, valium, etc. - There is a thread from scienceguy about benzo withdrawal, you are going through the very same thing, even though its not a benzo you are taking).
You can try bacopa to sensitize gaba receptors all the way while and after tampering down.

Hopefully, thats all you need to get clear of that stuff, your most important way to control your symptoms is the tampering rate. the more symptoms you have, the slower you should go.

Good luck.

#16 Trippy 1

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 65 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Washington
  • NO

Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:08 AM

I thought phenibut was gaba-b benzos were gaba-a therefore they were good to help with withdrawal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#17 Dizzon

  • Guest
  • 27 posts
  • 9
  • Location:California

Posted 26 November 2013 - 03:01 AM

CDP Choline and Picamilon are all I could think of. The literature on picamilon that's in English (not much) only discusses GABA-A AFAIK, but it should have similar effects of GABA-B. Neither are known to have withdrawals either so I would bet they don't negatively effect GABA receptor density/sensitivity.

Citicoline
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21836465
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17531379

Picamilon
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16845932
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20821973

Kava is worth a try (more so than ashwagandha or theanine IMO, but maybe not bacopa) and also doesn't cause withdrawals.

Data on bacopa improving GABA-B receptors in epileptic rats:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3306740/#!po=45.8333
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20451596

ScienceGuy got a little paranoid and over-simplistic with his thoughts on GABA agonists, not all agonists decrease receptor density and cause anxiety once withdrawn, for example all above mentioned substances.

Edited by Dizzon, 26 November 2013 - 03:25 AM.

  • dislike x 1

#18 ovecta

  • Guest
  • 68 posts
  • 6

Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:49 AM

Had a brief stint with Phenibut I used it for maybe a month, took about 2-3 grams which lasted all day and I did that 2 days (3 days max) each week, had abit of a bad experience at the end, I took my usual dosage in the evening and by chance my friends were having a party which I was pretty much had to attend, had a few drinks ( maybe 4/5) over a few hours and woke up the next day forgetting much of what had happend at the end of the night but was assured by my friends I was perfectly fine and didn't seem very drunk at all *phew*

The next few days I just had this vague feeling of unease, a weird anxiety that seemed hard to shake off but wasn't so bad, it went away after 4/5 days and having read all the various horror stories on various forums I decided to stop taking it all together and in an act of utter stupidity I threw my supply out!

In retrospective Phenibut is a great substance that actually works, but must be treated with the utmost respect with regards to dosage frequency, 1 to 2 days a week (preferably with a 4 day break between doses) at between 1-3 grams max would be the sweet spot in terms of avoiding any tolerence issues

#19 Trippy 1

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 65 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Washington
  • NO

Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:56 AM

CDP Choline and Picamilon are all I could think of. The literature on picamilon that's in English (not much) only discusses GABA-A AFAIK, but it should have similar effects of GABA-B. Neither are known to have withdrawals either so I would bet they don't negatively effect GABA receptor density/sensitivity.

Citicoline
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21836465
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17531379

Picamilon
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16845932
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20821973

Kava is worth a try (more so than ashwagandha or theanine IMO, but maybe not bacopa) and also doesn't cause withdrawals.

Data on bacopa improving GABA-B receptors in epileptic rats:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3306740/#!po=45.8333
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20451596

ScienceGuy got a little paranoid and over-simplistic with his thoughts on GABA agonists, not all agonists decrease receptor density and cause anxiety once withdrawn, for example all above mentioned substances.


At what dosages would you suggest these? I have picamilon and it seems to have a calming effect at 100mg.
But thee bacopa and citrocoline?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#20 Dizzon

  • Guest
  • 27 posts
  • 9
  • Location:California

Posted 27 November 2013 - 01:45 AM

According to the limited amount of Russian literature that's been made available, the typical dose for picamilon is 50mg 3X daily for a total of 150mg/daily but doses up to twice that are sometimes used. Discontinuation is recommended after 1-2 months, again according to russian literature advising physicians on proper usage. I have no idea why the discontinuation is recommended.

CDP choline should be taken with at 1-2 grams (1,000-2,000mg) daily, but sometimes doses as small as 500 mg/daily are used. You'll gain many benefits if you add fish oil to this to get the DHA (search Choline, uridine and dha on longecity to find out why), since CPD choline is a prodrug for uridine (in humans) and choline.

IIRC ~165mg Bacosides daily is the standard dose to achieve its proven effects r.e. cognitive enhancement, so it will depend on the % bacosides your supplement is, although some (myself included) use doses much higher than that. You might want to increase the dosage to suit your needs. Bacopa does decrease sperm motility a good amount but has no effect on libido, testicle size or testosterone levels. You will see some sensationalist posting on this forum about the downsides of bacopa. The claims are very overblown and have no scientific basic, just paranoia. Bacopa has more evidence behind enhancing memory in healthy people than any other supplement we can buy, that's not to say it will be the most potent nootropic, just the most proven in people without any cognitive decline. This is an accumulative effect and takes 1-3 months to manifest, you will not notice the memory enhancement right away. Anxiolytic effects are felt right away though.

If you got the cash to burn, Kava is the most potent of the non-addictive anxiolytics, but there is some slight concern over LONG-TERM use and pre-existing liver conditions, doesn't seem to make a good match for the extremely rare case. It's also been proven to help restore GABA-A fuction/density, cant say whether or not that will do much for you though.

In personal experiences, I sometimes combine 300mg 'Cyracos' Melissa Officianalis extract with Lavender Essential oil aromatherapy for anxiolytic effects and CRAZY dreams. Valerian should help (commonly paired with melissa) but I cant say so from personal experience. The lavenderXmelissa synergy is purely theoretical and hasn't been proven in vivo, only in vitro, but from personal experience the synergy is there and very potent. To use lavender for aromatherapy just get some essential oil and a q-tip, dip one end of the q-tip in the oil and place it as close to your pillow as possible. You can use the melissa as aromatherapy as well instead of the Cyracos standardized extract and just dip the other end of the q-tip in it so you have lavender on one side and melissa on the other. For daily aromatherapy use you could stick the q-tip behind your ear.

Melissa officinalis L. has been shown as an anti-stress and anxiolytic agent. We previously reported moderate stress improvement in mice in which Cyracos(®), a standardized Melissa officinalis L. extract, was administrated. Cyracos(®) contains phytochemicals that inhibit gamma-aminobutyric acid catabolism. This was a prospective, open-label, 15-day study to evaluate the efficacy of Cyracos(®) on stressed volunteers, who have mild-to-moderate anxiety disorders and sleep disturbances. Using clinician rating criteria, primary outcomes showed improvement of symptoms. Cyracos(®) reduced anxiety manifestations by 18% (p < 0.01), ameliorated anxiety-associated symptoms by 15% (p < 0.01) and lowered insomnia by 42% (p < 0.01). As much as 95% of subjects (19/20) responded to treatment, of which 70% (14/20) achieved full remission for anxiety, 85% (17/20) for insomnia, and 70% (14/20) for both. Our study demonstrates, for the first time that chronic administration of Melissa officinalis L. relieves stress-related effects. It is critical that further studies incorporate a placebo and investigate physiological stress markers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22207903

Both Melissa officinalis (Mo) and Lavandula angustifolia (La) essential oils have putative anti-agitation properties in humans, indicating common components with a depressant action in the central nervous system. A dual radioligand binding and electrophysiological study, focusing on a range of ligand-gated ion channels, was performed with a chemically validated essential oil derived from La, which has shown clinical benefit in treating agitation. La inhibited [35S] TBPS binding to the rat forebrain gamma aminobutyric acid (GABA)(A) receptor channel (apparent IC50 = 0.040 +/- 0.001 mg mL(-1)), but had no effect on N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA), alpha-amino-3-hydroxy-5-methyl-4-isoxazolepropionic acid (AMPA) or nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. A 50:50 mixture of Mo and La essential oils inhibited [3H] flunitrazepam binding, whereas the individual oils had no significant effect. Electrophysiological analyses with rat cortical primary cultures demonstrated that La reversibly inhibited GABA-induced currents in a concentration-dependent manner (0.01-1 mg mL(-1)), whereas no inhibition of NMDA- or AMPA-induced currents was noted. La elicited a significant dose-dependent reduction in both inhibitory and excitatory transmission, with a net depressant effect on neurotransmission (in contrast to the classic GABA(A) antagonist picrotoxin which evoked profound epileptiform burst firing in these cells). These properties are similar to those recently reported for Mo.


Edited by Dizzon, 27 November 2013 - 01:50 AM.


#21 Trippy 1

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 65 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Washington
  • NO

Posted 27 November 2013 - 01:50 AM

Wow, I really appreciate the reply. You seem to be very knowledge in this subject and I'll definitely have to incorporate some of these into my supplement regiment. I hope the kava especially will help with gettin over phenibut. I have the 30% kava capsules. How much would you suggest taking?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by Trippy 1, 27 November 2013 - 01:51 AM.


#22 Dizzon

  • Guest
  • 27 posts
  • 9
  • Location:California

Posted 27 November 2013 - 02:18 AM

250 mg of kavalactones is the standard dose. The first time I did kava I didn't feel safe to drive, after the first use the experience felt like much less of a 'recreational' high but was still very pleasant.

Now that i think about it again, Id suggest a combination of the Kava, Cyracos and picamilon over anything for acute, short term relief. The Kava increases GABA receptor binding sites and the Melissa prevents the degradation of GABA, slap some picamilon on that stack to increase overall GABA levels and that's the best pro-GABA stack i can think of for acute relief of withdrawals. Both the kava and picamilon have long-term beneficial effects on GABA-A receptors that should also confer benefits to GABA-B receptors, and therefore your withdrawals.

Add some lavender aromatherapy at night with the Cyracos if you have trouble sleeping, maybe even in the day too. Maybe valerian but its results in general are very lackluster compared to the previously mentioned substances, however theoretically it increases endogenous GABA production through Glutamate Decarboxylase, which again, theoretically might help the withdrawals.

The CDP choline and Bacopa will help, but they're more for long-term recovery instead of short term relief. The previously suggested Ashwagandha and Theanine would also be among my first things to suggest after that (WAY before valerian in most cases but maybe not yours), although theanine has a very short duration of effect for most people. I almost experience some light and enjoyable hypomania with the theanine & caffeine stack, but i never consume caffeine so that might be why.

Edited by Dizzon, 27 November 2013 - 02:53 AM.


#23 ovecta

  • Guest
  • 68 posts
  • 6

Posted 27 November 2013 - 02:25 AM

The problem with kava is very short lived in terms of its effects, I've taken an extracted paste of 60% concentrated kavalactones (full spectrum) which I found far better in effects than the root powder and much easier to consume.
One thing to mention of Kava is the reverse tolerence that occurs whereinn the effects get stronger with repeated dosing, while I found this to be true in terms of intensity of effects it had tno impact on the duration of effects.
Most I've taken was 500mg total kavalactones mixed with lecithin(or milk) which produced produced profound anxiolytic effects that lasted for about 30minutes, which for me is the usually duration of kavas effects, after that I just had a slight feeling of mental fatigue which is normal with high doses.
Be careful where you purchase kava, make sure its whole lateral root only as other parts of the plant are toxic to the liver, although most sellers are now aware of this fact, just make sure of this especially if what your buying seems very cheap.

#24 Dizzon

  • Guest
  • 27 posts
  • 9
  • Location:California

Posted 27 November 2013 - 04:10 AM

Gotu Kola (Centella asiatica) works through the same mechanisms as Valerian (glutamate decarboxylase) while also acting as a GABA-B agonist! valerian only acts on GABA-A AFAIK. I'd suggest it over Valerian any day. more human studies, greater evidence of axiolytic and nootropic potential, cheaper, and is the best supplement there is for improving micro-circulation and theoretically has significant potential for collagen synthesis. Oddly enough this is working around to my daily supplement stack, since Bacopa, Ashwagandha, Gotu Kola, CDP choline and Fish oil are all part of my daily. Those 5 supplements have sooo much potential r.e. dendritic and synaptic proliferation and strengthening, especially stacked together.

The purpose of this study was to determine whether commercially available botanicals directly affect the primary brain enzymes responsible for gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) metabolism. Anxiolytic plants may interact with either glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD) or GABA transaminase (GABA-T) and ultimately influence brain GABA levels and neurotransmission. Two in vitro rat brain homogenate assays were developed to determine the inhibitory concentrations (IC50) of aqueous and ethanolic plant extracts. Approximately 70% of all extracts that were tested showed little or no inhibitory effect (IC50 values greater than 1 mg/mL) and are therefore unlikely to affect GABA metabolism as tested. The aqueous extract of Melissa officinalis (lemon balm) exhibited the greatest inhibition of GABA-T activity (IC50 = 0.35 mg/mL). Extracts from Centella asiatica (gotu kola) and Valeriana officinalis (valerian) stimulated GAD activity by over 40% at a dose of 1 mg/mL. On the other hand, both Matricaria recutita (German chamomile) and Humulus lupulus (hops) showed significant inhibition of GAD activity (0.11-0.65 mg/mL). Several of these species may therefore warrant further pharmacological investigation. The relation between enzyme activity and possible in vivo mode of action is discussed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18066140

The asiatic acid, a triterpenoids isolated from Centella asiatica was used to delineate its inhibitory effect on acetylcholinesterase (AChE) properties, excitatory post synaptic potential (EPSP) and locomotor activity. This study is consistent with asiatic acid having an effect on AChE, a selective GABA(B) receptor agonist and no sedative effect on locomotor.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22112723



The problem with kava is very short lived in terms of its effects, I've taken an extracted paste of 60% concentrated kavalactones (full spectrum) which I found far better in effects than the root powder and much easier to consume.
One thing to mention of Kava is the reverse tolerence that occurs whereinn the effects get stronger with repeated dosing, while I found this to be true in terms of intensity of effects it had tno impact on the duration of effects.
Most I've taken was 500mg total kavalactones mixed with lecithin(or milk) which produced produced profound anxiolytic effects that lasted for about 30minutes, which for me is the usually duration of kavas effects, after that I just had a slight feeling of mental fatigue which is normal with high doses.
Be careful where you purchase kava, make sure its whole lateral root only as other parts of the plant are toxic to the liver, although most sellers are now aware of this fact, just make sure of this especially if what your buying seems very cheap.

Im not saying your comment isn't an accurate description of your experience on kava, however it is far from the common experiences received from kava. Kava tends to have a noticable 'intoxication' for 2-3 hours with continuing anxiolytic effects for over 8 hours. Many of the kavalactones have a half life of over 9 hours! That being said kava is like cannabis or any other drug with a wide variety of psychoactive constituents. Different strains/phenotypes/cultivars will produce different products with slightly different, but noticeable effects, but it will all just be sold as 'Kava Kava'

Edited by Dizzon, 27 November 2013 - 04:26 AM.


#25 Dizzon

  • Guest
  • 27 posts
  • 9
  • Location:California

Posted 27 November 2013 - 04:24 AM

@trippy1 to sum things up from me, I would suggest a combination of Kava, Cyranos, Picamilon and Gotu Kola over anything else. They each will work on your withdrawals but all from different mechanisms, theoretically having a very synergistic effect.

If you got the cash to burn and have trouble sleeping maybe buying the lavender to combine with the cyranos at night would be the next thing to buy. Bacopa would be the thing to get if sleep is less of an issue and anxiety is still troubling you. After that its hard to pick between ashwagandha and CDP choline, CDP has more evidence for healing the GABA B receptors, Ash will help more with anxiety (particularly social) and has a myriad of physical benefits. Both are awesome supplements in general. If all that doesn't do it and you still wanna throw money at the problem, ill see if i can find anything more helpful than valerian or theanine.

Edited by Dizzon, 27 November 2013 - 04:31 AM.


#26 Trippy 1

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 65 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Washington
  • NO

Posted 27 November 2013 - 04:27 AM

Thanks again for the comprehensive response. I'll be introducing them slowly to see how I react to each one. Hopefully it will make the withdrawal easier. I'm still tapering down at the moment. Would any of them interact with the phenibut if I took them while tapering?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#27 BioFreak

  • Guest
  • 541 posts
  • 53
  • Location:Germany

Posted 27 November 2013 - 03:18 PM

I thought phenibut was gaba-b benzos were gaba-a therefore they were good to help with withdrawal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why would you mess up gaba-a and become dependent on benzos while tampering off phenibut? I don't know if they act on different gaba receptors, but this is not important. Important for you to know is anything that works on gaba receptors - no matter which ones - will result in quick adaptation of the body reducing gaba receptors and decreasing gaba production. So you would just get addicted to benzos while getting off phenibut. Does it make sense to taper off heroine with meth? No it does not, either.

According to the limited amount of Russian literature that's been made available, the typical dose for picamilon is 50mg 3X daily for a total of 150mg/daily but doses up to twice that are sometimes used. Discontinuation is recommended after 1-2 months, again according to russian literature advising physicians on proper usage. I have no idea why the discontinuation is recommended.


I can answer that. Because picamilon simply supplies the brain with exogenous gaba directly. This means the same problem as with benzos or phenibut, the gaba system will shut down.

Listen, you do not want to replace one substance acting on gaba receptors with another, because you will just be addicted to the other substance. You need to tamper down on gaba acting substances COMPLETELY. If you do that, and only if you do THAT, your brain will adapt by increasing gaba receptors and production again. Control your tampering by slowing down if it gets to hard, or staying at a certain dose for some time before lowering it again. If it is to hard, decrease in smaller steps. Use Bacopa and theanine to help you.

did you study this thread? http://www.longecity...ly-effectively/

replace benzo withdrawal with phenibut withdrawal while reading it and you're all set.
  • dislike x 1
  • Ill informed x 1

#28 focus83

  • Guest
  • 216 posts
  • 21

Posted 27 November 2013 - 04:57 PM

Just another little tip: Once bad withdrawals set in after complete cessation of taking Phenibut I knock myself out with Mirtazapine which is a heavily sedating antidepressant. So essentially I would then sleep two days straight and when I wake up there are two days less of nasty withdrawals. Mirtazapine doesn't affect GABA, so you would sleep without touching this sensitive neurotransmitter system.

Edited by focus83, 27 November 2013 - 05:05 PM.


#29 Dizzon

  • Guest
  • 27 posts
  • 9
  • Location:California

Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:46 PM

Important for you to know is anything that works on gaba receptors - no matter which ones - will result in quick adaptation of the body reducing gaba receptors and decreasing gaba production. So you would just get addicted to benzos while getting off phenibut. Does it make sense to taper off heroine with meth? No it does not, either.
Because picamilon simply supplies the brain with exogenous gaba directly. This means the same problem as with benzos or phenibut, the gaba system will shut down.

Listen, you do not want to replace one substance acting on gaba receptors with another, because you will just be addicted to the other substance. You need to tamper down on gaba acting substances COMPLETELY. If you do that, and only if you do THAT, your brain will adapt by increasing gaba receptors and production again. Control your tampering by slowing down if it gets to hard, or staying at a certain dose for some time before lowering it again. If it is to hard, decrease in smaller steps. Use Bacopa and theanine to help you.

did you study this thread? http://www.longecity...ly-effectively/

Again falls victim to the same oversimplification that scienceguy did. Just because something is a GABA agonist does NOT mean it's use will innately come with GABA receptor downregulation and tolerance/addiction/withdrawal. You should read the thread that you posted to better. Scienceguy gets berated for oversimplifying his 'GABA agonist' theory. It just doesn't hold up to reality.

For example here are 2 studies showing the GABA receptor agonist picamilon restoring GABA receptor functioning in rats.

The influence of picamilon and piracetam on the quantitative changes in the central GABA(A) macromolecular receptor complexes in the rat brain has been investigated under the experimental conditions of hypokinesia. It was found that the injection of these nootropes under the conditions of 7-day hypokinesia and 4-day recovery period did not show visible changes in the amount of active GABA(A) receptors. However, the injection of picamilon under the conditions of 15-day hypokinesia and 8-day recovery period showed a tendency to restoration of the number of active GABA(A) receptors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20821973

The influence of a 15-day hypokinesia on the development of anxiety-depression state and quantitative changes in the central GABA-A macromolecular receptor complexes in the rat brain has been investigated under conditions of the despair (forced swim) test. Simultaneously, the effects of well-known nootropic drugs picamilon and piracetam on the dynamics of state parameters in the experimental animals have been evaluated. It was found that hypokinesia led to the development of anxiety and depression accompanied by reduction in the amount of active GABA-A receptors. The injections of piracetam and picamilon showed a tendency to restoration of the number of active GABA-A receptors and to normalization of the behavioral parameters.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16845932

Do you have any proof to back your claims? I take Lemon balm, California Poppy, Ashwagandha, Gotu Kola, Kava daily, (all mentiioned as addictive GABA agonists in scienceguy's thread) sometimes multiple times a day (for ash and gotu). Sometimes I go traveling and leave all supplements behind for a week or 2. Absolutely no effects of withdrawals or increased anxiety. None whatsoever. Anything, from tea to cheezeburgers to cannabis can be habit-forming and 'addicting' for the odd individual with little self restraint, but these substances do not come with chemical dependence. Maybe the California poppy does and shouldn't be taken by ex-opiate addicts, don't know enough about it, but the rest are completely non-addictive and I've felt no 'withdrawals' from cali poppy. Lol Im still waiting to see a gotu kola addict or a lemon balm addict.

Edited by Dizzon, 27 November 2013 - 07:09 PM.


sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#30 Dizzon

  • Guest
  • 27 posts
  • 9
  • Location:California

Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:06 PM

Thanks again for the comprehensive response. I'll be introducing them slowly to see how I react to each one. Hopefully it will make the withdrawal easier. I'm still tapering down at the moment. Would any of them interact with the phenibut if I took them while tapering?

They should have an additive effect to the phenibut, allowing you to take less and taper down quicker while feeling less strung out. The kava might have some potential synergy beyond the additive effect but probably not.

I just tried 280mg Kavalactones, 300mg Cyranos and 475mg of Gotu Kola last night to see if the stack felt a little overboard on the GABA, was very pleasant and comfortable, had some amazing sleep. No crash or groggy feeling, Ill have my hands on some picamilon in 4-5 hours and Ill try the stack with that to see what the combined effects are.

Edited by Dizzon, 27 November 2013 - 07:15 PM.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: phenibut, nootropics, withdrawal, help, advice, sleep, support, ghb, alcohol

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users