12 replies to this topic

[dunbar]

I don't know what to think. I mean is this all nonsense about being too acidic when you eat the wrong foods?
It's like some people say it's total nonsense and others act like it's true and that being too acidic causes cancer and what not.
For example if you drink something acidic and then measure your PH level in the urine and it goes up would this prove that
there's something to it or would it still not prove anything?
Cause many of those who sell alkaline pills and powders advise you to test yourself with urine PH test stripes. Is this all just
a hoax to rip people off by selling them useless alkaline mineral supplements?

I also read that alkaline pills and powders can impossibly work because of the stomach acid. If they really worked then wouldn't they
have to raise the PH of the stomach acid making it less acidic? Would this not also be negative?

[trance]

Do you really sit around all day worrying about absolutely everything and anything, or do you relax, let everything go for a moment, and have fun sometime?

[dunbar]

Do you really sit around all day worrying about absolutely everything and anything, or do you relax, let everything go for a moment, and have fun sometime?

No I worry quite a lot actually. Especially when you're in bad shape and have many issues and don't know what causes it you start
looking for explanations which usually adds more stress and worrying.

[blood]

Interesting study published last year:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....IC cohort study

Diabetologia. 2013 Nov 14. [Epub ahead of print]

Dietary acid load and risk of type 2 diabetes: the E3N-EPIC cohort study.

Fagherazzi G, Vilier A, Bonnet F, Lajous M, Balkau B, Boutron-Ruault MC, Clavel-Chapelon F.

Abstract

AIMS/HYPOTHESIS: The objective of this study was to evaluate the prospective relationship between dietary acid load, assessed with both the potential renal acid load (PRAL) and the net endogenous acid production (NEAP) scores, and type 2 diabetes risk.

METHODS: A total of 66,485 women from the E3N-EPIC cohort were followed for incident diabetes over 14 years. PRAL and NEAP scores were derived from nutrient intakes. HRs for type 2 diabetes risk across quartiles of the baseline PRAL and NEAP scores were estimated with multivariate Cox regression models.

RESULTS: During follow-up, 1,372 cases of incident type 2 diabetes were validated. In the overall population, the highest PRAL quartile, reflecting a greater acid-forming potential, was associated with a significant increase in type 2 diabetes risk, compared with the first quartile (HR 1.56, 95% CI 1.29, 1.90). The association was stronger among women with BMI <25 kg/m2 (HR 1.96, 95% CI 1.43, 2.69) than in overweight women (HR 1.28, 95% CI 1.00, 1.64); statistically significant trends in risk across quartiles were observed in both groups (p trend < 0.0001 and p trend = 0.03, respectively). The NEAP score provided similar findings.

CONCLUSIONS/INTERPRETATION: We have demonstrated for the first time in a large prospective study that dietary acid load was positively associated with type 2 diabetes risk, independently of other known risk factors for diabetes. Our results need to be validated in other populations, and may lead to promotion of diets with a low acid load for the prevention of diabetes. Further research is required on the underlying mechanisms.

PMID:24232975

Commentary from Food Navigator:

Link: http://www.foodnavig...etes-risk-Study


A diet with high acidity may be associated with up to a 56% increased risk of type 2 diabetes, says the study.

Published in Diabetologia, the research team analysed data from more than 60,000 women over 14 years in order to assess whether dietary acid load impacted later risk of type 2 diabetes.

Led by Dr Guy Fagherazzi from the Gustave Roussy Institute, France, the researchers reported that a higher overall acidity of diet was linked to increases in the incidence of type 2 diabetes - regardless of the individual foods making up that diet.

"We have demonstrated for the first time in a large prospective study that dietary acid load was positively associated with type 2 diabetes risk, independently of other known risk factors for diabetes," said Fagherazzi and his colleagues.
"Our results need to be validated in other populations, and may lead to promotion of diets with a low acid load for the prevention of diabetes," they said - noting that further research that focuses on the underlying mechanism is needed.

Study details

The team investigated data from a total of 66,485 women from the E3N study (the French Centre of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition, a well-known ongoing epidemiological study). The women were followed for new diabetes cases over 14 years, and dietary acid load was calculated from their potential renal acid load (PRAL) and their net endogenous acid production (NEAP) scores - both of which are standard techniques for assessing dietary acid consumption from nutrient intake.

During the 14 year follow-up, Fagherazzi and his colleagues observed 1,372 new cases of type 2 diabetes.
In the overall population, those in the top 25% (quartile) for PRAL had a 56% increased risk of developing type 2 diabetes compared with the bottom quartile.

Women of normal weight (BMI of 25 and under) had the highest increased risk (96% for top quartile versus bottom) while overweight women (BMI 25 and over) had only a 28% increased risk (top quartile versus bottom). NEAP scores showed a similar increased risk for higher acid load.

"In our study, the fact that the association between both PRAL and NEAP scores and the risk of incident type 2 diabetes persisted after adjustment for dietary patterns, meat consumption and intake of fruit, vegetables, coffee and sweetened beverages suggests that dietary acids may play a specific role in promoting the development of type 2 diabetes, irrespective of the foods or drinks that provide the acidic or alkaline components," said Fagherazzi and his colleagues.

"A diet rich in animal protein may favour net acid intake, while most fruits and vegetables form alkaline precursors that neutralise the acidity," they explained. "Contrary to what is generally believed, most fruits such as peaches, apples, pears, bananas and even lemons and oranges actually reduce dietary acid load once the body has processed them."

The take away message would seem to be: eat plenty of vegetables & fruits, and limit (within reason) the amount of animal protein you consume.

Also:
- No link between high dietary acid-load and hypertension:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22552032

- No (or equivocal) link between high dietary acid load & osteoporosis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24094472

Interesting papers:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18042305

Br J Nutr. 2008 Jun;99(6):1335-43. Epub 2007 Nov 28.

Urine pH is an indicator of dietary acid-base load, fruit and vegetables and meat intakes: results from the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC)-Norfolk population study.

Welch AA, Mulligan A, Bingham SA, Khaw KT.

Author information

Department of Public Health and Primary Care, University of Cambridge, Strangeways Site, Wort's Causeway, Cambridge CB1 8RN, UK. ailsa.welch@phpc.cam.ac.uk

Abstract

Evidence exists that a more acidic diet is detrimental to bone health. Although more precise methods exist for measurement of acid-base balance, urine pH reflects acid-base balance and is readily measurable but has not been related to habitual dietary intake in general populations. The present study investigated the relationship between urine pH and dietary acid-base load (potential renal acid load; PRAL) and its contributory food groups (fruit and vegetables, meats, cereal and dairy foods). There were 22,034 men and women aged 39-78 years living in Norfolk (UK) with casual urine samples and dietary intakes from the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC)-Norfolk FFQ. A sub-study (n 363) compared pH in casual samples and 24 h urine and intakes from a 7 d diary and the FFQ. A more alkaline diet (low PRAL), high fruit and vegetable intake and lower consumption of meat was significantly associated with a more alkaline urine pH before and after adjustment for age, BMI, physical activity and smoking habit and also after excluding for urinary protein, glucose, ketones, diagnosed high blood pressure and diuretic medication. In the sub-study the strongest relationship was found between the 24 h urine and the 7 d diary. In conclusion, a more alkaline diet, higher fruit and vegetable and lower meat intake were related to more alkaline urine with a magnitude similar to intervention studies. As urine pH relates to dietary acid-base load its use to monitor change in consumption of fruit and vegetables, in individuals, warrants further investigation.

PMID: 18042305

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24094472

J Clin Densitom. 2013 Oct-Dec;16(4):420-5. doi: 10.1016/j.jocd.2013.08.014. Epub 2013 Oct 2.

Does a high dietary acid content cause bone loss, and can bone loss be prevented with an alkaline diet?

Hanley DA, Whiting SJ.

Abstract

A popular concept in nutrition and lay literature is that of the role of a diet high in acid or protein in the pathogenesis of osteoporosis. A diet rich in fruit and vegetable intake is thought to enhance bone health as the result of its greater potassium and lower "acidic" content than a diet rich in animal protein and sodium. Consequently, there have been a number of studies of diet manipulation to enhance potassium and "alkaline" content of the diet to improve bone density or other parameters of bone health. Although acid loading or an acidic diet featuring a high protein intake may be associated with an increase in calciuria, the evidence supporting a role of these variables in the development of osteoporosis is not consistent. Similarly, intervention studies with a more alkaline diet or use of supplements of potassium citrate or bicarbonate have not consistently shown a bone health benefit. In the elderly, inadequate protein intake is a greater problem for bone health than protein excess.

Edited by blood, 03 February 2014 - 03:41 AM.

[blood]

J Bone Miner Res. 2014 Feb;29(2):500-6. doi: 10.1002/jbmr.2053.

Dietary Acid load is associated with lower bone mineral density in men with low intake of dietary calcium.

Mangano KM, Walsh SJ, Kenny AM, Insogna KL, Kerstetter JE.

Abstract

High dietary acid load (DAL) may be detrimental to bone mineral density (BMD). The objectives of the study were to: (1) evaluate the cross-sectional relation between DAL and BMD; and (2) determine whether calcium intake modifies this association. Men (n = 1218) and women (n = 907) aged ≥60 years were included from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey 2005-2008. Nutrient intake from 2, 24-hour recalls was used to calculate net endogenous acid production (NEAP) and potential renal acid load (PRAL) (mEq/d). PRAL was calculated from dietary calcium (PRALdiet ) and diet + supplemental calcium (PRALtotal ). Tests for linear trend in adjusted mean BMD of the hip and lumbar spine were performed across energy-adjusted NEAP and PRAL quartiles. Modification by calcium intake (dietary or total) above or below 800 mg/d was assessed by interaction terms. Overall, mean age was 69 ± 0.3 years. Among women, there was no association between NEAP and BMD. PRALdiet was positively associated with proximal femur BMD (p trend = 0.04). No associations were observed with PRALtotal at any BMD site (p range, 0.38-0.82). Among men, no significant associations were observed between BMD and NEAP or PRAL. However, an interaction between PRALdiet and calcium intake was observed with proximal femur BMD (p = 0.08). An inverse association between PRALdiet and proximal femur BMD was detected among men with <800 mg/d dietary calcium (p = 0.02); no associations were found among men with ≥800 mg/d (p = 0.98). A significant interaction with PRALtotal was not observed. In conclusion, when supplemental calcium is considered, there is no association between DAL and BMD among adults. Men with low dietary calcium showed an inverse relation with PRAL at the proximal femur; in women no interaction was observed. This study highlights the importance of calcium intake in counteracting the adverse effect of DAL on bone health. Further research should determine the relation between DAL and change in BMD with very low calcium intake.

© 2014 American Society for Bone and Mineral Research.

KEYWORDS:
BMD, CALCIUM INTAKE, DIETARY ACID LOAD, DIETARY PROTEIN, NHANES

[dunbar]

Great job!

This is really shocking. I mean if this stuff is really true then why do doctors
act like it's total nonsense? Seriously, this makes me angry. Check this guy out. He
acts like he's the real deal trying to expose quacks and in reality he might as well
be a quack. And anti quack-quack.

http://www.quackwatc...DSH/coral2.html

This means one needed to find out which foods are good and which foods are bad.
I mean is diary for example generally bad? Or whey protein?
I saw stuff on TV where someone wanted to sell his plant based protein pills and this person
talked like all non-plant based proteins are bad cause they are turned into ash in the body.
I thought this person sounded a bit crazy but now I'm worried.

I'm really confused now. I read all this stuff about alkaline supplements impossibly being able to
work because of the stomach acid. What if this is also wrong? Damn.

[blood]

This means one needed to find out which foods are good and which foods are bad.
I mean is diary for example generally bad? Or whey protein?
I saw stuff on TV where someone wanted to sell his plant based protein pills and this person
talked like all non-plant based proteins are bad cause they are turned into ash in the body.
I thought this person sounded a bit crazy but now I'm worried.

I'm really confused now. I read all this stuff about alkaline supplements impossibly being able to
work because of the stomach acid. What if this is also wrong? Damn.

It's possible that the alkaline diet & supplement stuff being pedalled by alternative health practitioners on the internet is mostly unproven/ quackery. Maybe the quack-busting doctors are reacting against the quackery (without bothering to read up on the latest research).

The recent research only supports some very limited claims. I.e., a high dietary load seems to increase the risk for type II diabetes. Any other claims probably can't be supported at the moment.

You can't say that meat/ dairy, or animal protein, is "generally bad"... what is important is the overall balance of fruits & veggies versus animal protein. You 'just' need to focus on a diet that is mostly vegetables, fruits, etc., but that also can contain smaller amounts of meat, yoghurt, whey protein, etc. This doesn't seem like it would be terribly hard to do - & most people here on Longecity would already be trying to do this, I suspect.

The idea of alkaline supplements would seem (on the face of it) a bit ridiculous, when you could just eat a banana or an apple, or a carrot...

What things do you eat for e.g., breakfast, lunch, dinner, Dunbar?

Edited by blood, 03 February 2014 - 07:22 AM.

[dunbar]

Hi,
for breakfast I usually eat oats + whey mixed in water.

For dinner I eat different things depending on what's being cooked. Usually meat,potatoes,pasta.

Lunch varies. I often eat things which are easy to prepare like for example pizza, canned beans, lentils, cheese, bacon, eggs.

I also drink a lot of coffee at least 3 cups per day. It's a strong habit. I can't just stop drinking coffee because of worrying about acid.

I really don't eat a lot of fruits and veggies mostly because I'm scared of them. I mean I heard so much about pesticides on fruits and veggies
that I feel like eating them might even be harmful.
I liked to eat frozen blueberries but then I heard that frozen berries need to be cooked before eating cause they could contain viruses!
Who cooks frozen berries first? Then the vitamins are all dead.
I also worried about the wild blueberries being infested with fox tapeworms which there's no cure for. I heard that wild berries are risky cause
if an infested fox craps on the berries and you eat them you catch it. Freezing the berries does NOT kill the eggs!

Edited by dunbar, 04 February 2014 - 03:24 AM.

[Sinter]

I think if you increase the amount of fruits and vegetables that you eat, you will solve the problem. Thats always beneficial.

[dunbar]

But there aren't many fruits and vegetables which can be peeled without losing most of their antioxidant value.
Peeled apples for example are pretty much useless. And unpeeled apples contain pesticides.

[blood]

But there aren't many fruits and vegetables which can be peeled without losing most of their antioxidant value.
Peeled apples for example are pretty much useless. And unpeeled apples contain pesticides.

Fruits & vegetables that have thick rinds or skins would be a safe option. Remove the skins/ rinds, and then pesticides are a non-issue.

There are many fruits & vegetables that retain their value when peeled.

- Pumpkin, carrots, sweet potato, etc.
- Grapefruits, kiwi fruit, etc.
- avocado, cantaloupe, mango, eggplant
- papaya, pineapple

Here is a list of the fruits & vegetables least likely to be heavily contaminated with pesticides (the "clean 15"):
http://www.ewg.org/f...ews/summary.php
(this is for the USA; but I'd expect similar results in Europe. Most of the clean 15 have removable skins/ peels).

Buying organic (e.g., apples) would be another option.

If you won't eat fruit & vegetables, then perhaps you should consider polyphenol supplements, e.g., grape seed extract.

(You would get some polyphenols from the coffee you consume; but not enough.)

Re: gut dysbiosis, that is something I have had to deal with; I tried probiotics, FOS, yogurt, yakult, etc. All those things might have helped a bit, but I've found inulin to be the most useful supplement/ product for improving my digestive health. I take a teaspoon dissolved in my coffee, or sprinkled on my oats or yoghurt, twice or more times/ day.

Edited by blood, 06 February 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[teacult]

Buy a blender - smoothie maker. Put variety of plants in it (tomato, potato, onion, cabbage, carrot, fresh pepper mint, garlic ...) add 1 glass of water and blend them to limits. Add butter more water and chicken parts. Cook for 15 minutes. Eat 1 portion of chicken vegi soup made in 20 minutes (including plany buying time). Eat a whole wheat bread with it. When it gets cool divide it to jars. You can save it 4 to 7 days in jars because it has onions and garlic in it ...

 

Eating once in every 3 days would be more than enough.  Top quality budget meal made in "7 minutes per day" would make you chicken vegi soup addict because If you can master it, it also tastes very good.

And being in bad shape *may be due to very low over training threshold which backfires to obesity. You should gradually increase your mental - physical efforts. And have fun most of the time and leisure until you get strong.

However 3 cups of caffee *may make it very hard to feel if you are stressed - tired or whatever you feel. 
So that you might be inhibiting yourself via impossible to feel over training stress. If you restrict your calories and limit your complex carbohydrate intake as a response to weight gain, you should get 8 hours sleep and %60 of caloric intake from complex carbs.

 

Take care ...

 

Edited by teacult, 14 September 2014 - 11:40 AM.

[Nemo888]

Can a poor diet cause you to become too acidic?

No. If your pH changed by as little as 0.2 you would be dead.

Can a diet more acid than we were designed for over an extended period cause health problems related to regulating pH. Probably yes.