42 replies to this topic

[TheBatman]

I've been struggling a bit with depression over a few months now. I've made many alternative treatment and lifestyle changes over the course of a few months and I still feel depressed. Right now I'm considering an antidepressant but I'm not quite convinced that the benefits will outweigh the consequences. From what I can gather most people regret having ever taken them.

I guess I was just wondering what other's experiences were with AD's. If you took them, do you regret it or are you glad you did?

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Tianeptine is, IMO.

Selegiline also, and they make a great combo despite theoretical (but unfounded) contraindication.

Most of the rest are varying degrees of garbage, with Bupropion IMO being near the top of the garbage pile; while poor old Fluoxetine is near the bottom.

Of course everyone is different, you'll meet some people where Fluoxetine does the trick.

It's just a shame Tianeptine has never been submitted for FDA approval (and probably never will). Honestly as I've been getting more into drug design, I've mulled over the idea of developing my own SSRE based off of Tianeptine and submitting it for clinical trials. It'd be one hell of an investment, but sadly I'd be forced to resort to the same price gouging as big pharma if I wanted to recoup the ridiculous costs.

[Introspecta]

Look into trying to heal your depression with Mucuna Extract with L-Dopa combined with 5htp. Its a way to get neurotransmitter levels up without fucking up your brain like some Antidepressants do. Seems like most anti depressant deal with Serotonin when in fact Dopamine is the problem. Do your research on Mucuna though and don't take high doses of the extracts. What I did was take 1 500mg 40% extract a day and then switched to the Raw Powder which contains 5htp to keep balance. Too much Dopamine will shut down serotonin. If done properly this herb has great potential. I've been noticing strong anti depressant qualities. It didn't happen right away it was more like 5 days later. The 1 side effect I have is at times overactive libido which can be considered good but at times annoying.

Not sure if you've experimented with any of the amino acids for depression but theres been alot of success with them when used properly.

[TheBatman]

Tianeptine is, IMO.

Selegiline also, and they make a great combo despite theoretical (but unfounded) contraindication.

Most of the rest are varying degrees of garbage, with Bupropion IMO being near the top of the garbage pile; while poor old Fluoxetine is near the bottom.

Of course everyone is different, you'll meet some people where Fluoxetine does the trick.

It's just a shame Tianeptine has never been submitted for FDA approval (and probably never will). Honestly as I've been getting more into drug design, I've mulled over the idea of developing my own SSRE based off of Tianeptine and submitting it for clinical trials. It'd be one hell of an investment, but sadly I'd be forced to resort to the same price gouging as big pharma if I wanted to recoup the ridiculous costs.

I agree, it's definitely a shame. To be honest I wouldn't actually consider selegiline at the moment because maoi's aren't exactly the safest long term option. Good luck on the investment though, it has a lot of potential. Whatever you do, do it quick though, cause I'm sure there's others out there with the same idea!

[TheBatman]

Look into trying to heal your depression with Mucuna Extract with L-Dopa combined with 5htp. Its a way to get neurotransmitter levels up without fucking up your brain like some Antidepressants do. Seems like most anti depressant deal with Serotonin when in fact Dopamine is the problem. Do your research on Mucuna though and don't take high doses of the extracts. What I did was take 1 500mg 40% extract a day and then switched to the Raw Powder which contains 5htp to keep balance. Too much Dopamine will shut down serotonin. If done properly this herb has great potential. I've been noticing strong anti depressant qualities. It didn't happen right away it was more like 5 days later. The 1 side effect I have is at times overactive libido which can be considered good but at times annoying.

Not sure if you've experimented with any of the amino acids for depression but theres been alot of success with them when used properly.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've used both tyrosine and tryptophan in the past with mild amounts of success. When they work they work well.

The problem I have, especially with tryptophan, is that it is mostly unreliable. Even when they do provide benefits they are short lived.

[TheBatman]

I forgot to say I have some issues with ocd. I have moderate to severe social anxiety and GAD as well. I no longer believe I have ADHD PI, but there is definitely something biological going on here.

Currently I'm planning on getting on an ssri with an as needed dose of amphetamine. I'm just worried I'll be worse off after treatment then before, even if the treatment has some initial success.

[Duchykins]

Hey Batman, I'm sorry you've been down lately.

I hope I can help a bit.

I've had major depression for some 15 years now. I went into a gradual decline over the last 7 or so years, until one day my doctor (general practitioner) flat out said to me "If you were ten years older, I would begin to suspect early onset dementia" (I'm 31). That's how bad it was, I could barely speak and couldn't even remember my own age and birthdate at times (often when asked for such things I would hestitate, trying to remember, which usually made people think I was lying about my age).

One of the bigger problems was not having health insurance for years at a time, the other problem was just simple ignorance.

I had very bad experiences with Celexa and amitryptaline (both which act on serotonin). Wellbutrin (works on dopamine and norephinephrine) does do more good than harm but it is not enough on its own.

I would strongly advise AGAINST trying some of the supplements (like phenibut, l-dopa, 5-htp, sam-e, others) out there until you understand a little more about what's going on in your body and what the likeliest causes of your depression and anxiety are. I also think you should hold off on SSRIs until you have tried other things first, things that come with less serious risks, side effects and that would possibly make an antidepressant unnecessary.

What I mean is total body care. Address common causes of depression and anxiety through nutrition. Simple things like low levels of b vitamins, magnesium, calcium, vitamin D, potassium, zinc, DHA/EPA, gluthiathone, taurine and various other amino acids and antioxidants are all consistently associated with depression, anxiety and a lot of symptoms accompanying those things (like poor sleeping). Study after study after study and likely more in the future confirm these things. You should try this avenue first, before moving on to other supplements. It's almost never as simple as serotonin or dopamine levels.

A couple of notes about some of the OTC supplements advertised for mood lifting, antianxiety properties - some of these must be approached with the same level of caution one would have with a prescription psychiatric med. Why? Say that unlike most people who have depressive symptoms, your serotonin levels aren't that low. Taking 5-htp regularly would do more harm than good for you (and shouldn't be taken regularly anyway by anyone, in my opinion). Say that your dopamine levels aren't the cause of your depression, taking things that increase dopamine would also do more harm than good. You can take a look around at the four I listed and you'll see what I mean - you'll find anecodotes from people using them to help with depression and anxiety, with results almost as widely varied as you see with prescription antidepressant and antianxiety meds. The good, the bad, the ugly and the no-effect. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're bad - they are good, and they actually work when taken properly by people who actually need what they do. These chemicals are simply not universally applicable, that's all.

There are a few things you can start right away while working on covering the deficiencies I mentioned that are gentle and have little deleterious side effects; taurine, theanine, dark chocolate. All of these are calming, can be taken any time during the day without compromising alterness, have cognitive enhancing properties and have mildly antidepressant effects without seriously messing with your serotonin/dopamine/norephinephrine levels.

Some might also suggest phenylalanine and tryptophan here (and I'm not saying you shouldn't have these because you should), but I believe you and everyone else would be better off with a more balanced approach with amino acid supplementation. When we supplement an amino acid, we often end up with lowered levels of one or more other amino acids in our bodies (because amino acids interact with each other for various processes) - this is typically a bad thing unless lowering levels of a specific amino acid is the actual goal.

By 'balanced' I mean getting something like whey protein, pea protein, hempseed protein (not oil), or an amino acid complex. All of these things would have phenylalanine and tryptophan, but also everything else you need including gluthiathone, glycine, tyrosine, carnosine, lysine and such. It would be easier on you and cheaper than going out and buying a dozen different things to cover what you would get in protein powders and amino acid complexes. Note on hemp protein: you will find this a significant source of omega 6 and this puts most people off, but know that the omega 6 in hemp is primarily GLA rather than LA, GLA being the longer and healthier n-6 chain than LA, and only omega 3 in hemp, other plant sources is ALA, some of which is converted into DHA/EPA but only about 1% or less. Not enough. You still need your DHA/EPA source.

Virgin coconut oil would also be beneficial for you, a very good source of MCTs and other things. Then look to the usual stuff one would find in the average multivitamin, looking especially at the calc, mag, zinc, potas, D, B vitamins including inositol. Choline may either help or worsen depressive symptoms, just fyi there. Avoid cheap multivitamins with more than 50% DV of iron (unless your doc thinks you may be iron deficient) because they can do more harm than good in more ways than one. Add some multi-fruit-based antioxidants. Cut back on glutens and omega 6 rich foods (a lot of junk foods, fast foods) and if you cook with vegetable or canola oils, stop, and replace with coconut or perhaps olive oil. Cod liver oil or krill oil instead of fish oil. Fish oil is not bad for you at moderate doses, but you have more to gain from the cod liver (additional nutrients) or krill (no fishy smells, plus astaxanthin) oil.

After doing just these things for a month or two, you will begin to get a better impression of what your closer-to-real 'baseline' is, and then you would get an idea of what you still need, if anything, or want to add in at higher doses, and this would also help save you time and money buying this or that one thing that ends up not helping you. Know what I mean?


This post is getting long-winded and there is still more to cover, but I believe that is a very good start. I began this journey slowly, and a bit skeptical at first, but I started improving almost immediately. It was far more effective that Wellbutrin and Ambien alone. I believe in the very near future Wellbutrin will be unnecessary, if it isn't already. Actually since I began my regimen, Wellbutrin has been making me restless and agitated, even very angry at times, rather suddenly after about 4 months of taking it without such side effects - which means that my natural dopamine/norephinephrine levels are higher now due to my nutritional needs being met and the Wellbutrin is boosting them into nontherapeutic levels.

More impressive during the first two weeks of supplementing was my regaining my speech skills, I can physically talk now and I can't even remember last time I had one of those days, or even a period of several hours, when I could barely make my mouth and jaw move properly to speak clearly. I am happier, more positively motivated and have hope for the future. My memory still needs working on, I believe there may have been some lingering 'damage' due to chronic sleep deprivation from untreated sleep-onset insomnia in addition to the depression (or rather, nutritional deficits), but a lot of my daily anxiety has vanished, which Wellbutrin had no therapeutic effect on. Wellbutrin merely gave me a small kick in the ass to get up and do stuff, like give a damn about fixing myself.

Well, that's it for now. Good luck buddy!

[sparkk51]

If you have OCD tendencies, I'd guess your depression has more to do with a lack of serotonin than dopamine. Then again, it's never as simple as one deficient neurotransmitter. I've been taking Venlafaxine for about two years now, starting when I was 18. If you have any questions, I can try to answer.

[Duchykins]

Look into trying to heal your depression with Mucuna Extract with L-Dopa combined with 5htp. Its a way to get neurotransmitter levels up without fucking up your brain like some Antidepressants do. Seems like most anti depressant deal with Serotonin when in fact Dopamine is the problem. Do your research on Mucuna though and don't take high doses of the extracts. What I did was take 1 500mg 40% extract a day and then switched to the Raw Powder which contains 5htp to keep balance. Too much Dopamine will shut down serotonin. If done properly this herb has great potential. I've been noticing strong anti depressant qualities. It didn't happen right away it was more like 5 days later. The 1 side effect I have is at times overactive libido which can be considered good but at times annoying.

Not sure if you've experimented with any of the amino acids for depression but theres been alot of success with them when used properly.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've used both tyrosine and tryptophan in the past with mild amounts of success. When they work they work well.

The problem I have, especially with tryptophan, is that it is mostly unreliable. Even when they do provide benefits they are short lived.

Tryptophan definitely works, but for people who have nutritional deficits, a lot of 'patches' like just adding tryptophan for mood lifting will do small good, if any good at all. It's just a band-aid in cases like ours. This holds true for virtually any lone supplement, and often for psychiatric meds too, patients these days rarely have only one psych script at a time.

[sparkk51]

Duchykins, thank you for that post. I think were probably similar in having poor memory due to our depression. However, after being on an antidepressant for 2 years now, I've noticed that my memory is much worse. Is this normal?

[Duchykins]

ins, thank youwi that post. I think were probably similar in having poor memory due to our depression. However, after being on an antidepressant for 2 years now, I've noticed that my memory is much worse. Is this normal?

I have to say no to that. Memory problems frequently accompany major depression and theoretically should improve as the depression does, not get worse. Do you think the med is helping you other areas? It could be that you need a drug that uses a different mechanism.

However, as there are innumerable causes of depression and bad memory, we can't yet rule out an underlying cause of the memory problem, or the cause of the depression. It could be different things affecting you concurrently, perhaps they're not connected at all. Our brains are so complicated and we understand so little. This is one reason I prefer the broad spectrum biomedical approach to alleviating depression, anxiety and the myriad problems associated with them as a first line of defense. At the very least, you would be improving your general overall health. I really think if more doctors recommended such things we wouldn't have so many people playing musical chairs with antidepressants and sedatives, getting only partial relief or no relief or getting worse and while dealing with common side effects like weight gain or sexual dysfunction or apathy or zombie states.

So we now know that antidepressants only have real effect in people with major depression. With the lesser two tiers depression, the same antidepressants perform no better than placebo. It's very probable that for those two groups, they would see the bulk or all of their symptoms evaporate with diet and lifestyle changes alone. Why else would they be so nonresponsive to these drugs that clearly help people with the worst kinds of depression?

I dunno. I could just be full of shit you know. :D. Or ignorant, because from where I stand now no other reasonable answer fits as well.

Edited by Duchykins, 10 February 2014 - 06:05 AM.

[username]

I don't agree with Duchykins' post. I tried all kinds of dietary modification to no avail. Vitamins and minerals themselves did not help all that much, either. You will need an actual antidepressant, either chemical or natural!
Proof that 5-htp works for depression is not sufficient: http://examine.com/s...HTP/#summary3-1

The biggest problem is: People take the wrong stuff. It's that simple.

Why not go for things that can actually work?
NAC for OCD
SAMe or st. john's wort extract & EPA from fish oil for depression
active B6, B9, B12 to lower homocysteine levels
Ashwagandha extract for anxiety
correct Vit D levels
take magnesium to avoid deficiency

I repeat myself over and over on this forum, but I'm just surprised that people don't use promising substances with no or few side effects? Either take an antidepressant from your doctor or look for natural antidepressants. You will not cure depression, anxiety + ocd with eating a different diet or taking supplements that don't have any or little proof of actually working.

[sparkk51]

I don't agree with Duchykins' post. I tried all kinds of dietary modification to no avail. Vitamins and minerals themselves did not help all that much, either. You will need an actual antidepressant, either chemical or natural!
Proof that 5-htp works for depression is not sufficient: http://examine.com/s...HTP/#summary3-1

The biggest problem is: People take the wrong stuff. It's that simple.

Why not go for things that can actually work?
NAC for OCD
SAMe or st. john's wort extract & EPA from fish oil for depression
active B6, B9, B12 to lower homocysteine levels
Ashwagandha extract for anxiety
correct Vit D levels
take magnesium to avoid deficiency

I repeat myself over and over on this forum, but I'm just surprised that people don't use promising substances with no or few side effects? Either take an antidepressant from your doctor or look for natural antidepressants. You will not cure depression, anxiety + ocd with eating a different diet or taking supplements that don't have any or little proof of actually working.

How long have you been taking these natural antidepressants?

[username]

Vit D, magnesium, NAC, B vitamins, fish oil for around 5 weeks
Ashwagandha maybe 2 weeks
SAMe around 1 1/2 weeks
I don't take st. johns wort and I'd be careful with taking several antidepressants. Both SAMe and st. john's wort are antidepressants that are effective in monotherapy and can be compared to medications you get from your doc.
I also have/had psychotic symptoms and actually take a lot more. SAMe, ashwagandha and fish oil are pretty awesome. The B vitamins can increase the response rate of antidepressants and help lower homocysteine levels.

[TheBatman]

I don't agree with Duchykins' post. I tried all kinds of dietary modification to no avail. Vitamins and minerals themselves did not help all that much, either. You will need an actual antidepressant, either chemical or natural!
Proof that 5-htp works for depression is not sufficient: http://examine.com/s...HTP/#summary3-1

The biggest problem is: People take the wrong stuff. It's that simple.

Why not go for things that can actually work?
NAC for OCD
SAMe or st. john's wort extract & EPA from fish oil for depression
active B6, B9, B12 to lower homocysteine levels
Ashwagandha extract for anxiety
correct Vit D levels
take magnesium to avoid deficiency

I repeat myself over and over on this forum, but I'm just surprised that people don't use promising substances with no or few side effects? Either take an antidepressant from your doctor or look for natural antidepressants. You will not cure depression, anxiety + ocd with eating a different diet or taking supplements that don't have any or little proof of actually working.

While I agree for the most part, diet sometimes can be the cure. There are a lot of people with diagnosed diabetes as well as celiacs where a diet change could make all the difference in the world. I've taken NAC before and I can't honestly say I noticed much of a difference. I've had moderate success with SJW until it started messing with my REM sleep and I decided it wasn't worth it. I do take magnesium and zinc every night and I think it helps me get better sleep, but I'm not sure.

I'll definitely give SAMe a go as well as a B complex. I was looking into ashwagandha, but I think I would rather try bacopa after reading through this thread: http://www.longecity...y-effectively/. I'll give all of these another try and I'll let you know what I think.

[TheBatman]

Hey Batman, I'm sorry you've been down lately.

I hope I can help a bit.

I've had major depression for some 15 years now. I went into a gradual decline over the last 7 or so years, until one day my doctor (general practitioner) flat out said to me "If you were ten years older, I would begin to suspect early onset dementia" (I'm 31). That's how bad it was, I could barely speak and couldn't even remember my own age and birthdate at times (often when asked for such things I would hestitate, trying to remember, which usually made people think I was lying about my age).

One of the bigger problems was not having health insurance for years at a time, the other problem was just simple ignorance.

I had very bad experiences with Celexa and amitryptaline (both which act on serotonin). Wellbutrin (works on dopamine and norephinephrine) does do more good than harm but it is not enough on its own.

I would strongly advise AGAINST trying some of the supplements (like phenibut, l-dopa, 5-htp, sam-e, others) out there until you understand a little more about what's going on in your body and what the likeliest causes of your depression and anxiety are. I also think you should hold off on SSRIs until you have tried other things first, things that come with less serious risks, side effects and that would possibly make an antidepressant unnecessary.

What I mean is total body care. Address common causes of depression and anxiety through nutrition. Simple things like low levels of b vitamins, magnesium, calcium, vitamin D, potassium, zinc, DHA/EPA, gluthiathone, taurine and various other amino acids and antioxidants are all consistently associated with depression, anxiety and a lot of symptoms accompanying those things (like poor sleeping). Study after study after study and likely more in the future confirm these things. You should try this avenue first, before moving on to other supplements. It's almost never as simple as serotonin or dopamine levels.

A couple of notes about some of the OTC supplements advertised for mood lifting, antianxiety properties - some of these must be approached with the same level of caution one would have with a prescription psychiatric med. Why? Say that unlike most people who have depressive symptoms, your serotonin levels aren't that low. Taking 5-htp regularly would do more harm than good for you (and shouldn't be taken regularly anyway by anyone, in my opinion). Say that your dopamine levels aren't the cause of your depression, taking things that increase dopamine would also do more harm than good. You can take a look around at the four I listed and you'll see what I mean - you'll find anecodotes from people using them to help with depression and anxiety, with results almost as widely varied as you see with prescription antidepressant and antianxiety meds. The good, the bad, the ugly and the no-effect. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're bad - they are good, and they actually work when taken properly by people who actually need what they do. These chemicals are simply not universally applicable, that's all.

There are a few things you can start right away while working on covering the deficiencies I mentioned that are gentle and have little deleterious side effects; taurine, theanine, dark chocolate. All of these are calming, can be taken any time during the day without compromising alterness, have cognitive enhancing properties and have mildly antidepressant effects without seriously messing with your serotonin/dopamine/norephinephrine levels.

Some might also suggest phenylalanine and tryptophan here (and I'm not saying you shouldn't have these because you should), but I believe you and everyone else would be better off with a more balanced approach with amino acid supplementation. When we supplement an amino acid, we often end up with lowered levels of one or more other amino acids in our bodies (because amino acids interact with each other for various processes) - this is typically a bad thing unless lowering levels of a specific amino acid is the actual goal.

By 'balanced' I mean getting something like whey protein, pea protein, hempseed protein (not oil), or an amino acid complex. All of these things would have phenylalanine and tryptophan, but also everything else you need including gluthiathone, glycine, tyrosine, carnosine, lysine and such. It would be easier on you and cheaper than going out and buying a dozen different things to cover what you would get in protein powders and amino acid complexes. Note on hemp protein: you will find this a significant source of omega 6 and this puts most people off, but know that the omega 6 in hemp is primarily GLA rather than LA, GLA being the longer and healthier n-6 chain than LA, and only omega 3 in hemp, other plant sources is ALA, some of which is converted into DHA/EPA but only about 1% or less. Not enough. You still need your DHA/EPA source.

Virgin coconut oil would also be beneficial for you, a very good source of MCTs and other things. Then look to the usual stuff one would find in the average multivitamin, looking especially at the calc, mag, zinc, potas, D, B vitamins including inositol. Choline may either help or worsen depressive symptoms, just fyi there. Avoid cheap multivitamins with more than 50% DV of iron (unless your doc thinks you may be iron deficient) because they can do more harm than good in more ways than one. Add some multi-fruit-based antioxidants. Cut back on glutens and omega 6 rich foods (a lot of junk foods, fast foods) and if you cook with vegetable or canola oils, stop, and replace with coconut or perhaps olive oil. Cod liver oil or krill oil instead of fish oil. Fish oil is not bad for you at moderate doses, but you have more to gain from the cod liver (additional nutrients) or krill (no fishy smells, plus astaxanthin) oil.

After doing just these things for a month or two, you will begin to get a better impression of what your closer-to-real 'baseline' is, and then you would get an idea of what you still need, if anything, or want to add in at higher doses, and this would also help save you time and money buying this or that one thing that ends up not helping you. Know what I mean?


This post is getting long-winded and there is still more to cover, but I believe that is a very good start. I began this journey slowly, and a bit skeptical at first, but I started improving almost immediately. It was far more effective that Wellbutrin and Ambien alone. I believe in the very near future Wellbutrin will be unnecessary, if it isn't already. Actually since I began my regimen, Wellbutrin has been making me restless and agitated, even very angry at times, rather suddenly after about 4 months of taking it without such side effects - which means that my natural dopamine/norephinephrine levels are higher now due to my nutritional needs being met and the Wellbutrin is boosting them into nontherapeutic levels.

More impressive during the first two weeks of supplementing was my regaining my speech skills, I can physically talk now and I can't even remember last time I had one of those days, or even a period of several hours, when I could barely make my mouth and jaw move properly to speak clearly. I am happier, more positively motivated and have hope for the future. My memory still needs working on, I believe there may have been some lingering 'damage' due to chronic sleep deprivation from untreated sleep-onset insomnia in addition to the depression (or rather, nutritional deficits), but a lot of my daily anxiety has vanished, which Wellbutrin had no therapeutic effect on. Wellbutrin merely gave me a small kick in the ass to get up and do stuff, like give a damn about fixing myself.

Well, that's it for now. Good luck buddy!

Hey thanks for posting, I think you bring up some good points.

I have a few suspicions that there's something going out of whack with my kidneys. My family has a history of kidney issues like kidney stones. I'm thirsty most of the time, and I have to pee a lot. It's especially annoying if I have to get up and pee in the middle of the night. I've also had 3 UTI's in the past few months, despite not having sex with anyone. I've also lost 20 Ibs which isn't good for me - I'm already pretty damn skinny.

I tried a lot of diet changes over the past few months(even going completely gluten/dairy free) and didn't really amount to anything. I've also taken each one of those supplements, except for gluthiathone and glycine, for an extended amount of time

[TheBatman]

I've also taken a daily dose of adderall for two years straight up until a few months ago. Now when I take it, I get therapeutic effects for maybe 3 hours followed by a massive crash and i'm lucky if I get to bed before 3 am. This never used to happen though..

I wonder if my anxiety and depression issues are directly correlated with amphetamine use and my body is still trying to recover.

[Duchykins]

I don't agree with Duchykins' post. I tried all kinds of dietary modification to no avail. Vitamins and minerals themselves did not help all that much, either. You will need an actual antidepressant, either chemical or natural!
Proof that 5-htp works for depression is not sufficient: http://examine.com/s...HTP/#summary3-1

The biggest problem is: People take the wrong stuff. It's that simple.

Why not go for things that can actually work?
NAC for OCD
SAMe or st. john's wort extract & EPA from fish oil for depression
active B6, B9, B12 to lower homocysteine levels
Ashwagandha extract for anxiety
correct Vit D levels
take magnesium to avoid deficiency

I repeat myself over and over on this forum, but I'm just surprised that people don't use promising substances with no or few side effects? Either take an antidepressant from your doctor or look for natural antidepressants. You will not cure depression, anxiety + ocd with eating a different diet or taking supplements that don't have any or little proof of actually working.

I'm not against taking prescription meds. I did recommend several of the things you listed. I don't appreciate being misrepresented and it doesn't make you seem as though you are reasonable or read whole posts before commenting on them.

There have been recent discoveries that put St. John's Wart in a negative light. I personally avoid it. Sam-e works for those *that actually need what it does* and others who don't need it often have negative reactions to regular dosing. I do not tell people that these kinds of supplements are bad or don't work, I only express that caution should be used with them.

"... taking supplements that don't have any or little proof of actually working." After recommending a handful of supplements yourself. All I did was explain how he could have a better idea of what prescriptions or mood-related supplements he should be taking after he eliminates the possibility of simple deficiencies like mag, D, zinc, certain proteins, etc. What is difficult about that to understand?

Gawd.

Edited by Duchykins, 10 February 2014 - 09:02 PM.

[Duchykins]

I've also taken a daily dose of adderall for two years straight up until a few months ago. Now when I take it, I get therapeutic effects for maybe 3 hours followed by a massive crash and i'm lucky if I get to bed before 3 am. This never used to happen though..

I wonder if my anxiety and depression issues are directly correlated with amphetamine use and my body is still trying to recover.

Oh man. As soon as I read adderall and daily I cringed. Ritalin and adderall long term use seems to frequently cause depressive symptoms. Kids are particularly vulnerable to this, it's not rare to find that a child, adolescent or teen who was given adderall is several years later diagnosed with depression and given an antidepressant. It sometimes takes a decade or two after a drug has been released on the market before we can see a pattern of side effects emerging among users. This is the case with the typical amphetamines given to kids and young adults. I didn't comment on the amphetamine you mentioned in your first post because I have mixed feelings about it, I have a nagging suspicion that ADD/ADHD is overdiagnosed in this country, that some don't need the amphetamines, but also that some do need them. I don't presume to know that much about you or your symptoms, so I don't want to just say "don't take that drug it's bad for you and you don't need it" because that could very well be wrong. But in both cases, hyperactive symptoms were at least partially alleviated with special diet and supplementation.

But even if the amphetamines did mess you up, don't be discouraged, don't look at yourself as though you are screwed up for life. You're not. You just have to retrain, reboot your brain.

Whatever you do choose to do, however, never forget to double check any prescriptions and supplements for drug interactions. So for example, off the top of my head, SSRIs and 5-htp together can cause serotonin syndrome, which is serious business. It's possible for 5-htp and SSRIs to be used concurrently, but within certain doses and its best if they were staggered. You're not just looking for dangerous interactions, you're also looking for interactions where one drug interferes with the efficacy of another drug. Remember.

[username]

I don't agree with Duchykins' post. I tried all kinds of dietary modification to no avail. Vitamins and minerals themselves did not help all that much, either. You will need an actual antidepressant, either chemical or natural!
Proof that 5-htp works for depression is not sufficient: http://examine.com/s...HTP/#summary3-1

The biggest problem is: People take the wrong stuff. It's that simple.

Why not go for things that can actually work?
NAC for OCD
SAMe or st. john's wort extract & EPA from fish oil for depression
active B6, B9, B12 to lower homocysteine levels
Ashwagandha extract for anxiety
correct Vit D levels
take magnesium to avoid deficiency

I repeat myself over and over on this forum, but I'm just surprised that people don't use promising substances with no or few side effects? Either take an antidepressant from your doctor or look for natural antidepressants. You will not cure depression, anxiety + ocd with eating a different diet or taking supplements that don't have any or little proof of actually working.

I'm not against taking prescription meds. I did recommend several of the things you listed. I don't appreciate being misrepresented and it doesn't make you seem as though you are reasonable or read whole posts before commenting on them.

There have been recent discoveries that put St. John's Wart in a negative light. I personally avoid it. Sam-e works for those *that actually need what it does* and others who don't need it often have negative reactions to regular dosing. I do not tell people that these kinds of supplements are bad or don't work, I only express that caution should be used with them.

"... taking supplements that don't have any or little proof of actually working." After recommending a handful of supplements yourself. All I did was explain how he could have a better idea of what prescriptions or mood-related supplements he should be taking after he eliminates the possibility of simple deficiencies like mag, D, zinc, certain proteins, etc. What is difficult about that to understand?

Gawd.

I simply don't think that getting rid of deficiencies is sufficient to cure major depression even if it is a causal factor.
Vitamin D can be preventive for multiple sclerosis, but once you have it, it won't cure you.
Many things can be preventive for cancer, but once you have it they can even be contraindicated.
I simply think that telling people not to start with supps or meds that are antidepressant is not good advice.
I don't know if getting rid of deficiencies before starting the actual 'treatment', whatever it is, actually increases the chance of it working and decreases the chance of side effects. I simply don't see a reason to have a 'waiting period'.
Depending on how bad the situation is, this might actually be a bad thing.
I think the 'all-at-once' approach is better. It has the disadvantage of not being entirely sure what works (if it does), but that can be determined by elimination if need be.
The severity of MDD justifies radical measures and taking risks. It's not really something you should show patience with.
Maybe I should have worded it differently. It wasn't meant to be offensive.

Edited by longschi, 10 February 2014 - 09:51 PM.

[username]

I'd try a good probiotics supplement as well because of the UTIs. It won't do any harm and might help colonize the urinary tract with the wanted bacteria.

[TheBatman]

I've also taken a daily dose of adderall for two years straight up until a few months ago. Now when I take it, I get therapeutic effects for maybe 3 hours followed by a massive crash and i'm lucky if I get to bed before 3 am. This never used to happen though..

I wonder if my anxiety and depression issues are directly correlated with amphetamine use and my body is still trying to recover.

Oh man. As soon as I read adderall and daily I cringed. Ritalin and adderall long term use seems to frequently cause depressive symptoms. Kids are particularly vulnerable to this, it's not rare to find that a child, adolescent or teen who was given adderall is several years later diagnosed with depression and given an antidepressant. It sometimes takes a decade or two after a drug has been released on the market before we can see a pattern of side effects emerging among users. This is the case with the typical amphetamines given to kids and young adults. I didn't comment on the amphetamine you mentioned in your first post because I have mixed feelings about it, I have a nagging suspicion that ADD/ADHD is overdiagnosed in this country, that some don't need the amphetamines, but also that some do need them. I don't presume to know that much about you or your symptoms, so I don't want to just say "don't take that drug it's bad for you and you don't need it" because that could very well be wrong. But in both cases, hyperactive symptoms were at least partially alleviated with special diet and supplementation.

But even if the amphetamines did mess you up, don't be discouraged, don't look at yourself as though you are screwed up for life. You're not. You just have to retrain, reboot your brain.

Whatever you do choose to do, however, never forget to double check any prescriptions and supplements for drug interactions. So for example, off the top of my head, SSRIs and 5-htp together can cause serotonin syndrome, which is serious business. It's possible for 5-htp and SSRIs to be used concurrently, but within certain doses and its best if they were staggered. You're not just looking for dangerous interactions, you're also looking for interactions where one drug interferes with the efficacy of another drug. Remember.

I've done a fair amount of search on adderall and I think the main issues have come from chronic dehydration and some issues with vasopressin. Other than that I don't know what the hell is going on. Honestly I don't have any real reason to be this depressed.

I also took accutane a few months ago and stopped when my depression got worse. Adderall causes many issues on its own but using it with accutane was probably a really stupid idea, but the doctor and the derm said it wouldn't be a problem. Other than that I don't know how to reverse any damage.

There's also the fact that I was depressed before I even took adderall which makes me wonder if it has actually caused some brain damage or if I'm returning to baseline.

[Duchykins]

Hey Batman, I'm sorry you've been down lately.

I hope I can help a bit.

I've had major depression for some 15 years now. I went into a gradual decline over the last 7 or so years, until one day my doctor (general practitioner) flat out said to me "If you were ten years older, I would begin to suspect early onset dementia" (I'm 31). That's how bad it was, I could barely speak and couldn't even remember my own age and birthdate at times (often when asked for such things I would hestitate, trying to remember, which usually made people think I was lying about my age).

One of the bigger problems was not having health insurance for years at a time, the other problem was just simple ignorance.

I had very bad experiences with Celexa and amitryptaline (both which act on serotonin). Wellbutrin (works on dopamine and norephinephrine) does do more good than harm but it is not enough on its own.

I would strongly advise AGAINST trying some of the supplements (like phenibut, l-dopa, 5-htp, sam-e, others) out there until you understand a little more about what's going on in your body and what the likeliest causes of your depression and anxiety are. I also think you should hold off on SSRIs until you have tried other things first, things that come with less serious risks, side effects and that would possibly make an antidepressant unnecessary.

What I mean is total body care. Address common causes of depression and anxiety through nutrition. Simple things like low levels of b vitamins, magnesium, calcium, vitamin D, potassium, zinc, DHA/EPA, gluthiathone, taurine and various other amino acids and antioxidants are all consistently associated with depression, anxiety and a lot of symptoms accompanying those things (like poor sleeping). Study after study after study and likely more in the future confirm these things. You should try this avenue first, before moving on to other supplements. It's almost never as simple as serotonin or dopamine levels.

A couple of notes about some of the OTC supplements advertised for mood lifting, antianxiety properties - some of these must be approached with the same level of caution one would have with a prescription psychiatric med. Why? Say that unlike most people who have depressive symptoms, your serotonin levels aren't that low. Taking 5-htp regularly would do more harm than good for you (and shouldn't be taken regularly anyway by anyone, in my opinion). Say that your dopamine levels aren't the cause of your depression, taking things that increase dopamine would also do more harm than good. You can take a look around at the four I listed and you'll see what I mean - you'll find anecodotes from people using them to help with depression and anxiety, with results almost as widely varied as you see with prescription antidepressant and antianxiety meds. The good, the bad, the ugly and the no-effect. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're bad - they are good, and they actually work when taken properly by people who actually need what they do. These chemicals are simply not universally applicable, that's all.

There are a few things you can start right away while working on covering the deficiencies I mentioned that are gentle and have little deleterious side effects; taurine, theanine, dark chocolate. All of these are calming, can be taken any time during the day without compromising alterness, have cognitive enhancing properties and have mildly antidepressant effects without seriously messing with your serotonin/dopamine/norephinephrine levels.

Some might also suggest phenylalanine and tryptophan here (and I'm not saying you shouldn't have these because you should), but I believe you and everyone else would be better off with a more balanced approach with amino acid supplementation. When we supplement an amino acid, we often end up with lowered levels of one or more other amino acids in our bodies (because amino acids interact with each other for various processes) - this is typically a bad thing unless lowering levels of a specific amino acid is the actual goal.

By 'balanced' I mean getting something like whey protein, pea protein, hempseed protein (not oil), or an amino acid complex. All of these things would have phenylalanine and tryptophan, but also everything else you need including gluthiathone, glycine, tyrosine, carnosine, lysine and such. It would be easier on you and cheaper than going out and buying a dozen different things to cover what you would get in protein powders and amino acid complexes. Note on hemp protein: you will find this a significant source of omega 6 and this puts most people off, but know that the omega 6 in hemp is primarily GLA rather than LA, GLA being the longer and healthier n-6 chain than LA, and only omega 3 in hemp, other plant sources is ALA, some of which is converted into DHA/EPA but only about 1% or less. Not enough. You still need your DHA/EPA source.

Virgin coconut oil would also be beneficial for you, a very good source of MCTs and other things. Then look to the usual stuff one would find in the average multivitamin, looking especially at the calc, mag, zinc, potas, D, B vitamins including inositol. Choline may either help or worsen depressive symptoms, just fyi there. Avoid cheap multivitamins with more than 50% DV of iron (unless your doc thinks you may be iron deficient) because they can do more harm than good in more ways than one. Add some multi-fruit-based antioxidants. Cut back on glutens and omega 6 rich foods (a lot of junk foods, fast foods) and if you cook with vegetable or canola oils, stop, and replace with coconut or perhaps olive oil. Cod liver oil or krill oil instead of fish oil. Fish oil is not bad for you at moderate doses, but you have more to gain from the cod liver (additional nutrients) or krill (no fishy smells, plus astaxanthin) oil.

After doing just these things for a month or two, you will begin to get a better impression of what your closer-to-real 'baseline' is, and then you would get an idea of what you still need, if anything, or want to add in at higher doses, and this would also help save you time and money buying this or that one thing that ends up not helping you. Know what I mean?


This post is getting long-winded and there is still more to cover, but I believe that is a very good start. I began this journey slowly, and a bit skeptical at first, but I started improving almost immediately. It was far more effective that Wellbutrin and Ambien alone. I believe in the very near future Wellbutrin will be unnecessary, if it isn't already. Actually since I began my regimen, Wellbutrin has been making me restless and agitated, even very angry at times, rather suddenly after about 4 months of taking it without such side effects - which means that my natural dopamine/norephinephrine levels are higher now due to my nutritional needs being met and the Wellbutrin is boosting them into nontherapeutic levels.

More impressive during the first two weeks of supplementing was my regaining my speech skills, I can physically talk now and I can't even remember last time I had one of those days, or even a period of several hours, when I could barely make my mouth and jaw move properly to speak clearly. I am happier, more positively motivated and have hope for the future. My memory still needs working on, I believe there may have been some lingering 'damage' due to chronic sleep deprivation from untreated sleep-onset insomnia in addition to the depression (or rather, nutritional deficits), but a lot of my daily anxiety has vanished, which Wellbutrin had no therapeutic effect on. Wellbutrin merely gave me a small kick in the ass to get up and do stuff, like give a damn about fixing myself.

Well, that's it for now. Good luck buddy!

Hey thanks for posting, I think you bring up some good points.

I have a few suspicions that there's something going out of whack with my kidneys. My family has a history of kidney issues like kidney stones. I'm thirsty most of the time, and I have to pee a lot. It's especially annoying if I have to get up and pee in the middle of the night. I've also had 3 UTI's in the past few months, despite not having sex with anyone. I've also lost 20 Ibs which isn't good for me - I'm already pretty damn skinny.

I tried a lot of diet changes over the past few months(even going completely gluten/dairy free) and didn't really amount to anything. I've also taken each one of those supplements, except for gluthiathone and glycine, for an extended amount of time

Ouch. Are you sure you're keeping hydrated? I know less than optimal water intake could cause all of those things, but you said family history of kidney issues so it's probably not that simple. Your symptoms sound like very serious business. What tests has your doctor run on you for it?

[Duchykins]

I don't agree with Duchykins' post. I tried all kinds of dietary modification to no avail. Vitamins and minerals themselves did not help all that much, either. You will need an actual antidepressant, either chemical or natural!
Proof that 5-htp works for depression is not sufficient: http://examine.com/s...HTP/#summary3-1

The biggest problem is: People take the wrong stuff. It's that simple.

Why not go for things that can actually work?
NAC for OCD
SAMe or st. john's wort extract & EPA from fish oil for depression
active B6, B9, B12 to lower homocysteine levels
Ashwagandha extract for anxiety
correct Vit D levels
take magnesium to avoid deficiency

I repeat myself over and over on this forum, but I'm just surprised that people don't use promising substances with no or few side effects? Either take an antidepressant from your doctor or look for natural antidepressants. You will not cure depression, anxiety + ocd with eating a different diet or taking supplements that don't have any or little proof of actually working.

I'm not against taking prescription meds. I did recommend several of the things you listed. I don't appreciate being misrepresented and it doesn't make you seem as though you are reasonable or read whole posts before commenting on them.

There have been recent discoveries that put St. John's Wart in a negative light. I personally avoid it. Sam-e works for those *that actually need what it does* and others who don't need it often have negative reactions to regular dosing. I do not tell people that these kinds of supplements are bad or don't work, I only express that caution should be used with them.

"... taking supplements that don't have any or little proof of actually working." After recommending a handful of supplements yourself. All I did was explain how he could have a better idea of what prescriptions or mood-related supplements he should be taking after he eliminates the possibility of simple deficiencies like mag, D, zinc, certain proteins, etc. What is difficult about that to understand?

Gawd.

I simply don't think that getting rid of deficiencies is sufficient to cure major depression even if it is a causal factor.
Vitamin D can be preventive for multiple sclerosis, but once you have it, it won't cure you.
Many things can be preventive for cancer, but once you have it they can even be contraindicated.
I simply think that telling people not to start with supps or meds that are antidepressant is not good advice.
I don't know if getting rid of deficiencies before starting the actual 'treatment', whatever it is, actually increases the chance of it working and decreases the chance of side effects. I simply don't see a reason to have a 'waiting period'.
Depending on how bad the situation is, this might actually be a bad thing.
I think the 'all-at-once' approach is better. It has the disadvantage of not being entirely sure what works (if it does), but that can be determined by elimination if need be.
The severity of MDD justifies radical measures and taking risks. It's not really something you should show patience with.
Maybe I should have worded it differently. It wasn't meant to be offensive.

I don't think major depression can be 'cured' like that either. Operative word here being major, not mild or moderate.

I think it's very wrong, reckless and irresponsible for the likes of us to tell people we have never met and don't have medical history on to go *straight to* the supplements that behave an awful lot like prescription antidepressants and sedatives, for better or worse. That is not the same as suggesting basic nutrients. Telling somone to go get Sam-e or St Johns or 5-htp and take it daily is NOT the same as telling them to take phenylalanine, B vitamins or taurine, especially when he said he will be taking an SSRI and an amphetamine. We are not his doctors and we are not his pharmacists.

All-at-once is a terrible idea, especially now that he's revealed a potentially serious kidney/renal problem. It's usually always a terrible idea, with nootropics too.

Don't talk to me about making him worse. What if he takes your advice, goes and starts taking everything at the same time and has a psychotic outburst as a result of excessive dopamine? How would that affect his life, job/school, friends/family ... ? Would cops get involved? Who knows? That is much worse than taking it slow.

[username]

Well, I'm not saying to combine everything or to take it with other meds. And when he lost 20 lbs, of course he should go to a doctor.
Several antidepressants any doctor would prescribe you list psychotic symptoms as a side effect. They increase suicidality in young adults. SAMe and St john's wort aren't worse. They have better side effect profiles without a doubt. Not taking something that might actually work when you're depressed is a mistake.
The Adderral, weight loss, and kidney problems make all of this a lot more difficult and risky. But I couldn't know that when I wrote that, could I?
Everyone's responsible for him- or herself. And, c'mon, psychotic outburst. Any real proof that it could actually cause that? I've read of manic episodes in rare cases with SAMe. And of course you shouldn't just pop several antidepressants and amphetamines at the same time. The vitamins, fish oil, minerals and ashwagandha sure won't make you go crazy.
Look at the standard treatment and compare it to some supps I mentioned. I know what has more side effects.

I said, take an antidepressant (by that, I mean st johns wort and SAMe since they don't have that many side effects) when you're depressed. You said, no, wait. I disagree. That pretty much sums it up.

Edited by longschi, 10 February 2014 - 10:50 PM.

[Introspecta]

Honestly I'd get a bottle of Mucuna Extract and dose it. It is the most effective herb for depression. The best I've ever taken and I've tried everything. 5htp on its on never did crap for me but combined with L-dopa is much better..

Of course if your gonna try supplements then do your best to keep your diet in check. Raise your testosterone naturally with Fish oil, Healthy Fats and Some Nuts. Exercise. All this combined with about 250-500 mgs L-dopa and you'll most likely feel better. When your mood is up it allows you to make the changes in your life that are necessary. Some of your depression may be due to life situations. Isolating. Not reaching out and talking to people can make people seriously depressed. It def does for me. Too much Masterbation is an issue too. If your doing it daily its not helping. Not sure if you've been on that thread at all but its always worth a try. Many people's social anxiety and depression was healed through temproray celebacy.

[Duchykins]

I've also taken a daily dose of adderall for two years straight up until a few months ago. Now when I take it, I get therapeutic effects for maybe 3 hours followed by a massive crash and i'm lucky if I get to bed before 3 am. This never used to happen though..

I wonder if my anxiety and depression issues are directly correlated with amphetamine use and my body is still trying to recover.

Oh man. As soon as I read adderall and daily I cringed. Ritalin and adderall long term use seems to frequently cause depressive symptoms. Kids are particularly vulnerable to this, it's not rare to find that a child, adolescent or teen who was given adderall is several years later diagnosed with depression and given an antidepressant. It sometimes takes a decade or two after a drug has been released on the market before we can see a pattern of side effects emerging among users. This is the case with the typical amphetamines given to kids and young adults. I didn't comment on the amphetamine you mentioned in your first post because I have mixed feelings about it, I have a nagging suspicion that ADD/ADHD is overdiagnosed in this country, that some don't need the amphetamines, but also that some do need them. I don't presume to know that much about you or your symptoms, so I don't want to just say "don't take that drug it's bad for you and you don't need it" because that could very well be wrong. But in both cases, hyperactive symptoms were at least partially alleviated with special diet and supplementation.

But even if the amphetamines did mess you up, don't be discouraged, don't look at yourself as though you are screwed up for life. You're not. You just have to retrain, reboot your brain.

Whatever you do choose to do, however, never forget to double check any prescriptions and supplements for drug interactions. So for example, off the top of my head, SSRIs and 5-htp together can cause serotonin syndrome, which is serious business. It's possible for 5-htp and SSRIs to be used concurrently, but within certain doses and its best if they were staggered. You're not just looking for dangerous interactions, you're also looking for interactions where one drug interferes with the efficacy of another drug. Remember.

I've done a fair amount of search on adderall and I think the main issues have come from chronic dehydration and some issues with vasopressin. Other than that I don't know what the hell is going on. Honestly I don't have any real reason to be this depressed.

I also took accutane a few months ago and stopped when my depression got worse. Adderall causes many issues on its own but using it with accutane was probably a really stupid idea, but the doctor and the derm said it wouldn't be a problem. Other than that I don't know how to reverse any damage.

There's also the fact that I was depressed before I even took adderall which makes me wonder if it has actually caused some brain damage or if I'm returning to baseline.

I thought Accutane was taken off the market, I remember something about it causing inflammatory bowel disease. So I gather it's been several years since you've had the Accutane? I can't comment too much on things I'm definitely ignorant of.

Stimulants can easily exacerbate preexisting depressive, anxiety and psychotic symptoms in the long run, partially because the adverse effects on the dopamine system are masked by the beneficial short-term effects of the drugs.

Chronic dehydration can make things worse for sure, from amplifying low mood to causing UTIs and kidney stones. I've seen otherwise healthy young people mess themselves up with just a few noots because they don't realize that they need to increase their water intake with their noots, or with salty supplements like choline bitartrate. Everything works great at first, then later they 'feel like shit' and start exhibiting symptoms of dehydration. A lot of supplements and prescriptions require you to drink more water.

But the changes to your brain may not be permanent. Have you read around about brain plasticity?

[Duchykins]

Honestly I'd get a bottle of Mucuna Extract and dose it. It is the most effective herb for depression. The best I've ever taken and I've tried everything. 5htp on its on never did crap for me but combined with L-dopa is much better..

Of course if your gonna try supplements then do your best to keep your diet in check. Raise your testosterone naturally with Fish oil, Healthy Fats and Some Nuts. Exercise. All this combined with about 250-500 mgs L-dopa and you'll most likely feel better. When your mood is up it allows you to make the changes in your life that are necessary. Some of your depression may be due to life situations. Isolating. Not reaching out and talking to people can make people seriously depressed. It def does for me. Too much Masterbation is an issue too. If your doing it daily its not helping. Not sure if you've been on that thread at all but its always worth a try. Many people's social anxiety and depression was healed through temproray celebacy.

Why is masturbation an issue? Sexual arousal, activity and orgasm cause a release of oxytocin. Endorphins make you feel good and do other neat things like increase pain tolerance and self-esteem. What is 'too much', once a day or five times a day?

Sex, masturbation lowers risk of prostate cancer and diabetes. It also encourages the body to make healthier sperm. Sexual activity and anticipation can give a little testosterone boost under the right circumstances. Everything I know about evolutionary biology is screaming at me that enforced sexual abstinence in social primates is not natural and does more harm than good.

So are you sure that the purported benefits of celibacy are not placebo or caused by things that typically accompany a celibate lifestyle, like self-reflection, meditation or spiritual rituals?

[TheBatman]

Ouch. Are you sure you're keeping hydrated? I know less than optimal water intake could cause all of those things, but you said family history of kidney issues so it's probably not that simple. Your symptoms sound like very serious business. What tests has your doctor run on you for it?

I never actually connected the dots until last week so unfortunately I've got an appointment for this week. My symptoms are defiantly made worse from adderall though and I think it caused the majority of this.

Honestly I'd get a bottle of Mucuna Extract and dose it. It is the most effective herb for depression. The best I've ever taken and I've tried everything. 5htp on its on never did crap for me but combined with L-dopa is much better..

Of course if your gonna try supplements then do your best to keep your diet in check. Raise your testosterone naturally with Fish oil, Healthy Fats and Some Nuts. Exercise. All this combined with about 250-500 mgs L-dopa and you'll most likely feel better. When your mood is up it allows you to make the changes in your life that are necessary. Some of your depression may be due to life situations. Isolating. Not reaching out and talking to people can make people seriously depressed. It def does for me. Too much Masterbation is an issue too. If your doing it daily its not helping. Not sure if you've been on that thread at all but its always worth a try. Many people's social anxiety and depression was healed through temproray celebacy.

Yeah I need more exercise for sure. I don't have a problem with masturbation unless you count maybe once a week.

[TheBatman]

Don't worry I don't take everything I read about substances on these boards seriously. I wouldn't take any supplement unless I researched the hell out of it first.