6 replies to this topic

[A941]

Is it even possible for something to exist forever?
Could a Lifeform store all its memories forever, wouldnt this mass of data grow into infinity and finally be inacessible when it has reached a certain size?

[Julia36]

Is it even possible for something to exist forever?

The world presumably lasts for ever (the world, as you'll know, is the term given in philosophy to everything ie including universe multiverse, and doesn't mean the planet earth)

Could a Lifeform store all its memories forever,

Yup, by the principle Information is incapable of destruction' (Susskind).

So it depends what you mean by 'lifeform' ie would intelligent computers be lifeforms?

wouldn't this mass of data grow into infinity and finally be inaccessible when it has reached a certain size?

here you've tripped yourself!
You are postulating the information in 'the thing' grows but the other bits of 'the thing' dont.

It seems probable that systems of retrieval of information will mature.

Also that things can be classified into groups and the laws that form and govern them - the laws of physics.
This enables massive shortcuts, and data to be compounded and reduced: this is what mathematics does
eg you dont list each orange



as an orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange and another orange

but just write 275 oranges. ( didn't type all those, I cheated & used recursion!)

In computing this is called 'objects' or 'components'.

When you want to access the information you inflate the components. A good analogy is sewing a complex tapestry. You can work on any bit specifically but the whole fabric has integrity. Computerized, you access it by grid coordinates.






I dunno about 'finally' inaccessible, because that suggests physics over a certain size is unwieldy, whereas we know that isn't true from cosmology. eg atom, molecule, organism planet galaxy, universe, multiverse (as far as our maths goes @ present)

I'm interested in the limits of retrieval of data, and think that using maths and physics, you can take just a few starting point known positions and calculate everything that has happened...retrieve all the information past.

This is already being done in simulations of the universe which run backward bilions of years, with trillions of evolving and retrodicting points.


This states the same thing (I think there's a bigger model of the universe now)

http://www.popsci.co...-known-universe






Is there a biggest maximum size? I dunno. The Greeks pondered this and called it the atom (Gk 'indivisible') and the heavens. You've got to keep growing as well as the infomation IMO.

Edited by Innocent, 11 February 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[A941]

I dont know if calculating "past" information could be done this way (do you have a link where this idea is explained in deepth?), and with inacessible i menat that one day you will have that much information, memories and so on that you may need to cross light years to get to the place they are stored (even if you manage to use atoms, or samller particles, as your smalles information unit), stuff piles up during eternity.

Iam not opposed to the Idea of a extremly prolonged life (otherwise i wouldnt hang around in the forum for 12 years) I just want to know which ways to make it feasible will work and which will not.

[Julia36]

I dont know if calculating "past" information could be done this way (do you have a link where this idea is explained in deepth?),

They are posted here:

http://www.longecity...hurch-dec-2012/

and with inacessible i menat that one day you will have that much information, memories and so on that you may need to cross light years to get to the place they are stored (even if you manage to use atoms, or samller particles, as your smalles information unit), stuff piles up during eternity.

You're talking about scales.

ie what is biggest amount of data we can handle?


Manipulation of scales is improving on trends. So is speed of accessing, and speed of calculation.



There's a whole raft of techniques for dealing with large data, requiring only small inputs. eg Algorithmic probability.



There's a whole load of techniques for dealing with vast calculations across massive distances using short-cuts. The nature of geometries are being used to short-cut massive calculations.
eg Amplituhedrons by theoretical physicist Nima Arkani-Hamed - Wiki last year
,
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=By27M9ommJc

and also Plucker Embedding.

I remember having this objection to massive data handling but Solomonoff sorted it out for me. You can indeed find a needle in a haystack with his techniques.


There is the perspective of future knowledge, and although that is unknown, we can make guesses based on the past and speed of science progression related to amount of data it deals with.

My judgement is that the dawn of the Age of Machine Intelligence in 2022 will bring recursive self-improving intelligence.

However my argument doesn't rest on this, but the ability of maths to be improved by humans.

Iam not opposed to the Idea of a extremly prolonged life (otherwise i wouldnt hang around in the forum for 12 years) I just want to know which ways to make it feasible will work and which will not.

That seems like nutrition, supplements, exercise, calorie restriction (NOT proven in humans), diet eg ADF, regular medical monitoring, building up money to help, cryonics, etc.

My best judgement is death is a delusion by immature civilizations which have not yet reached sufficient technology to reach into the past and resurrect the dead.

That is already happening in resurrection biology and archaeology, but not yet on individual human scales.

It is reasonable to presume calculation will get better, so so long as our species survives (not likely IMO, & Solomonoff (above) said to me he thought we wouldn't survive) we'll resurrect our own dead.

Once Resurrection happens, this debate would pretty much be over.

If our species doesn't survive we must still be resurrected by the laws of probability and the eternity of the cosmos: this is also an argument from Many Worlds Theory, ie that which can happen tends always to happen.


Although I dont believe we can survive, because of our lack of control of technology, and too late entry into Superintelligence construction - which would mitigate and neutralize extinction risks, it;s wise to proceed on the basis we will survive.

Edited by Innocent, 12 February 2014 - 04:04 PM.

[A941]

If our species doesn't survive we must still be resurrected by the laws of probability and the eternity of the cosmos: this is also an argument from Many Worlds Theory, ie that which can happen tends always to happen.

Sounds very optimistic, which Iam not that much.
First of all, this assumptions about Quantum-Archeology have to be true, and 2nd: Will it really be us, will they really be able to resurect us and not a mere copy which has no continuity with ourself?

[Julia36]

If our species doesn't survive we must still be resurrected by the laws of probability and the eternity of the cosmos: this is also an argument from Many Worlds Theory, ie that which can happen tends always to happen.

Sounds very optimistic, which Iam not that much.
First of all, this assumptions about Quantum-Archeology have to be true, and 2nd: Will it really be us, will they really be able to resurect us and not a mere copy which has no continuity with ourself?

A lot of philosophers are pessimistic because they fall into sophism ("reason is a god!" but reason is in conflict with Faith or extreme Hope/optimism, which demonstrably has a survival advantage see
Fideism - Wiki



Pascal's wager is a commonly condensed description of fideism.

which states they should both be given standing. I dont like the word faith as it implies religion which has done real damage to scholarship and still is doing that.

There isn't time to develop a new religion on non dogmatic and scientific basis, because technology is demonstrably accelerating.

But assuming death is final is contra science since you cant know the future only make calculated predictions.

The struggle is to accurately forecast which is a statistical science and not spooky hit and miss ie
you have to show how you are forecasting and open your data to checking, and your models to challenge.

1. Quantum Archaeology's major assumption is that science will improve.

2. Your identity has been set down scientifically and simply in

Chapter VIII. The Problem of Identity

http://www.cryonics....ospect_Book.pdf

It's the best I've ever seen, including by academic philosophers.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Edited by Innocent, 13 February 2014 - 09:42 PM.

[Florin]

According to current science, living an infinite amount of time and having an infinite memory is impossible. Physical cosmology theory indicates that all information processing will cease in the far future due to the heat death of the universe. Even if the universe could support an infinite amount of time of information processing, the memory of just a single being would eventually have to fill the entire universe if it would want to remember an infinite number of different things. Mathematical and physical compression of information will delay this inevitability, but it can't avoid it. Information can only be compressed mathematically by a certain amount before it starts to become lossy. Infinite amounts of matter (representing infinite amounts of information) can't be compressed into a finite amount of space. New science may eliminate the heat death and matter compression problem, but for now, it seems impossible for any kind of being in this universe to exist forever or have an infinite memory.

Edited by Florin Clapa, 03 March 2014 - 04:18 AM.