60 replies to this topic

[DJS]

Chip, I think the kinds of speculation you put forward in your last post are unjustified. As Osiris has said, you are starting to sound more and more like a conspiracy theorist.

[Chip]

Yes, I tried to explain that a thrashing out of SENS is not conspiratorial per se but as a part of a larger distribution pattern, might be indicative of something other than wanting us to pursue finding immortality.

As far as conspiracies go, as long as much of how our so-called governments operate with many back door and undisclosed shady dealings, apparent cronyism as a result, perhaps obvious in the lobbying campaigns we actually allow and foster, I find that conspiracy is more the rule than the exception. I can turn on virtually any media source and find advertisments that are meant to misinform and cajole. My own research tells me that Mr. Galloway was correct in finding that our current administration has launched huge life threatening and compromising endeavors on the basis of "a pack of lies." I see that the media that most depend on is owned and tightly controlled by just a small handful of companies who have direct ties to profiting from war. I see so-called regulatory agencies bowing to the whim of big-monied interests and acting to regulate the consumer for the sustainment of profits for a few, exactly the opposite of what they should be doing if there were no conspiracy. Conspiracy is the norm.

Arguing against something just because it sounds conspiratorial serves those who conspire. The game is to "ignore the man behind the curtain" which plays right into humanity's psychological malady, epistemological relativism. If it is believed that majority opinion, or even just opinion for that matter, actually determines reality, then, ignoring the forces that actively conspire, even our actions in the commonly opportunistism laden world, could be influenced by actively seeking to pervert majority opinion. I tell you man, there is a sickness that is treacherous. It threatens to take down this biosphere. Insanity is always quite incredible to the sane. Preposturousness might be the first claim of some one who just goes with the flow rather than dig for details. "Going with the flow" is a dead end. We do have to question and question and question again. We have to continually test the authenticity of our assumptions, our foundation, or become out of touch, corrupted, co-opted to death-dealing and death.

Osiris, its not crazy

Paranoia is not crazy

Panic is crazy

Seeking to force opinion rather than communication, that is crazy, insane, sociopathic.

Being able to see potential dangers and avoid them, that is not crazy. It means just admitting what is plain before our faces despite the long time indoctrinations into all sorts of weird "end-game" scenarios that cause some to seek obfuscation in the symbols rather than meaning. It happens, osiris. I'm probably stretching my credibility a bit here with this thread and how it has deployed but you can't accuse me of not putting an honest effort to attempt to totally disclose my intentions. Others have not done so.

[Chip]

Don. All I was doing was attempting to disclose the etiology of how it might happen here if it is, if we can begin to describe what such an instance of invasion by conspiratorial forces might look like. Such a speculation appears cogent to this discussion and not a person-specific approach.

Still it might be easier to some one who finds the frightening possibility that us humans are spiraling on out of control as too distasteful to pursue. See the epistemological relativism? Sure it manifests in extremists seeking to disrupt rather than facilitate. It also taints our own abilities to rise above crass contrite denigration.

Any hoo. Party on. Be excellent to each other. But what do you do about folks who aren't? Am I despoiling the party by attempting to show the spin, the anti-communication dependence on ad-hominem in many instances, the tacit condoning of lying, of creating false persona? Are these Okay? Are these evidence of a non-conspiratorial agency?

[Mark Hamalainen]

I can turn on virtually any media source and find advertisments that are meant to misinform and cajole.

The problem with conspiracy theories are their tendancy to want to explain everything as specifically intended outcomes of the plots of certain people. The world is much more complicated than that, and not that simple to control. There isn't necessarily somebody pulling the strings behind everything.

That said, there is an increasing tendency towards facist/authoritarian policies in the US. Have you read The Fountainhead, Chip? I would liken the real explanation to something like Mallory's drooling beast.

"…I know that the terror exists. I know the kind of terror it is….Listen, what's the most horrible experience you can imagine? To me -- it's being left, unarmed, in a sealed cell with a drooling beast of prey or a maniac who's had some disease that's eaten his brain out. You'd have nothing then but your voice -- your voice and your thought. You'd scream to that creature why it should not touch you, you'd have the most eloquent words, the unanswerable words, you'd become the vessel of the absolute truth. And you'd see living eyes watching you and you'd know that the thing can't hear you, that it can't be reached, not reached, not in any way, yet it's breathing and moving there before you with a purpose of its own. That's horror. Well, that's what's hanging over the world, prowling somewhere through mankind, that same thing, something closed, mindless, utterly wanton, but something with an aim and a cunning of its own….I don't know its nature." (p. 353)

I'm probably stretching my credibility a bit here with this thread and how it has deployed but you can't accuse me of not putting an honest effort to attempt to totally disclose my intentions. Others have not done so.

Indeed, you are upfront and honest, but often tactless.

[Chip]

I was baptised. I think it may be one of the shocks of my early childhood, along with circumcision and my parents divorcing while I was young that makes pushing my memories before the age of two virtually impossible for me. The grand-parent I loved the most was into yoga and had Buddhist leanings though never went to church. "Gramps" turned me onto the works of Walter Russel. He also took me to the first showing of "2001, A Space Odyssey" when it first came out. He and I traveled by bus about 40 miles to see it in a downtown San Francisco theatre. I can't tell you how valuable it was to me to have a kindred spirit that was so open to understanding and learning, that served so much in firing up my own spirit. I guess you could of called him quite the practitioner of secular humanism, but, excuse me, I have come to consider Christianity as the secular, non-spiritual force. Humanism is to me the only way to go if you want effective spiritual acuity. Sounds like I am not into religious freedom. Well, yes, if freedom is that which curtails other freedoms, I am agin it.

[Chip]

From Bylaw A of the Immortality Institute’s constitution:

Malicious Attacks: ImmInst has a zero tolerance policy for any individual or group which tries to disrupt the usual flow of information in the ImmInst forums or chat room.  Examples include, but are not limited to, such things as spamming and hacking.  Such individuals will be banned from posting either immediately or after due warning depending on the incident.

Technically spam is junk email but it seems reasonable to use the term in regards to junk messages as Don Spanton, a Navigator here recently used it in the “How to Complain” thread “It is virtually unheard of for leadership to delete a post outright unless it is judged to contain illegal content or spam.” It can be quite reasonably surmised that the use of the word “spamming” in the user agreement refers to junk messages, not junk email.

I contend that an Advisor of Imminst has posted junk messages largely comprising their contributions to a thread they created that was junk from the start and very likely elsewhere. A poll is entitled “Euthanasia? What choice for yourself?, If YOU had PVS...” at http://www.imminst.o...f=106&t=5857&s= and yet the questions are not about euthenasia at all but rather as the author shared his intent “One out of two voted that it was right to remove Terri's feeding tube. I am interested if this ratio is maintained if it was YOU that was in a condition similar to Terri's” The poll’s supposition takes a highly fanciful theoretical leap “You have been diagnosed with PVS - make your choice.” If you have PVS then you can not make a choice so the opinion is assumed that Terry did not have PVS, contrary to pre and post diagnosis. The introductory post has some misinformation included such as that the woman had no MRI or that a PET scan was indicated as a lacking necessary part of her diagnosis to determine PVS.
From http://www.theempire...rvations_sh.htm

7/24/1990
MRI Report Dr. Pinkston
Profound atrophy w/ very atrophic appearing cortex. 

There is more in this analysis of the bogus, junk nature of that thread involving the CT scans and the MRI and the EEG tests as having indicated no cerebral cortex functioning, that the medical consensus related at least up to shortly before the media circus that there is no reason to perform a PET scan to determine PVS. One compared it to attempting to x-ray an amputated leg. There is no reason to attempt to perform a PET scan of something that has already been found to not exist with MRI, CT and EEG analysis. In the body of that thread one can see the author ignoring arguments against the validity of the poll, misconstruing and mistranslating others with the intent to make the poster of arguments appear nonsensical rather than address the arguments, continual and repeated ad hominem allusion. Me thinks this Imminst advisor has spammed Imminst.

Concerning hacking, such is most successful and repeatable if it can be done using a sufficient Trojan horse mechanism. Cloak the hacking in the guise of normal processing or policing of posts and it is accomplished and the possibility of such hacking happening again made more likely. For example, in the category “Singularity” one finds a thread that has been going on since June 21, 2005 concerning SETI “Astrobiology research may provide an important foundation for Technological Singularity studies.“ The thread has not been moved or edited due to its being about SETI and not Singularity. Yet, the thread I started in the SENS category “Making SENS become a reality., A possible path” http://www.imminst.o...t=0 was moved by the same Advisor who did the afore mentioned spamming because “this thread is about SETI not about SENS”. SETI may enhance understanding singularity. Why would it categorically never aid in understanding SENS? The thread was nearing its exhaustion when moved. I contend this moving of the thread was hacking. It would not have hurt the forum if it remained there and did relate that SETI might just positively impact SENS. But the judgment was made, sentence pronounced and carried out with no attempt to reason or discuss. The thread was hacked, from within.

The above findings will be denounced. Well, denounce the obvious condoning of hacking Imminst’s forum via the possible creation of fake persona as evident with “If it makes you happy to think tiktok is me I'm fine with it for now - whilst this user is a tad uncouth in delivery style I share the sentiment.” immediately following an absolutely undeniable straw man, ad hominem obfuscation about how the claim that someone has lied “reminds me of the marionette waving his hands about” which is approval of the main component of junk messages, lying, misinformation. That “tad uncouth” was bigger enough than “tad” as to warrant a warning of expulsion from Imminst’s forum. The spamming “tiktok” which is fine with the Advisor to consider as being a fake creation of his, gets the Advisor’s commendation. He is endorsing and practicing spamming and hacking of Imminst’s forum and yet, where is the warning and/or expulsion?

I have continually found that online forums hold double standards. User agreements are applied significantly more to those with less established and hierarchical status within the organization and transgressions against such agreements have little if any impact on members of the staff of such forums. Once a troll has made it into the hierarchy of an online forum it is very difficult for the staff to recognize the failure of their selection process and spamming as well as hacking become tacitly approved and can become quite endemic.

My general observation of the pervasiveness of people believing that denying or ignoring something makes it non-existent, as if opinion trumps evidence, will dictate that spamming or hacking of this forum by a member of the hierarchy will be tolerated by other members of the hierarchy. I ascribe to some of the quite reasonable assessments of Lysander Spooner that constitutions do not satisfy the basic tenets of contractual arrangements and do not of their own accord avail legitimacy to a supposed institution. I find that easier to believe when the members of the “leadership” of a forum do not conform to the dictates of their own constitution.

There is a suggestion here, in this post, but I truly doubt if it can be heard or enacted, the honoring of Imminst’s constitution. The messenger, me, will be attacked. The message will not, can not, be heard.

[justinb]

your thread of pondering on the prospect that extraterrestials may assist with SENS

What the f***?

ETs helping with SENS?

JESUS, Don.... you should worry about that effecting the credibility of the forum.... not the Biblical reference in Prometheus' signature.


[Navigation note: Justin, for the second time, curb the offensive dialog. You are not impressing anyone]

Edited by DonSpanton, 01 July 2005 - 03:01 PM.

[Karomesis]

I can see I have missed all of the fun. [lol] . Can't we all just get along?

Prometheus, I trust my absence was a well needed reprieve. However, all good things must come to an end [tung] Seriously though I hope you and Mr. fox can let bygones be bygones and focus on the creation of the future rather than our less than ideal past discussions.

Is it possible to reconcile fairy tales with science? well I suppose fairy tales are interesting and useful insofar as thier designation as a form of entertainment, when its illusion is shattered by logic then there is no more use of it; those who would attempt to draw childish analogies between the two are undeserving of legitamite scientific acclaim. Rather, they are to be pitied.

[DJS]

Prometheus

I was baptised and raised in a fairly liberal Greek orthodox christian environment.

That's cool, I am currently a member of a conservative Greek orthodox family. My mother recently remarried a man who is Greek orthodox so I've been to a Greek Orthodox wedding and even a Sunday mass on mothers day. Christ, my mother's husband, also does the sign of the cross thingy when we go past churches.

The pursuit, Don, of anti-senescence interventions and expanding our understanding of the procesess of aging with an ultimate view of treating aging as a disease which can be cured is not the exclusive domain of the secular, nor does it need to be. The common grain of Imminst members should not - must not - be whether they believe in God or not but in their interest of extending their span of quality life. Hence the matter of anyone else's religious affiliations or beliefs should not be of concern to you anymore than should their sexual orientation, or their race. The premise in your statement that "serious scientists" may get the wrong idea about Imminst's mission is absurd. In fact, the notion that "serious scientists" would find that to be a point of concern in light of the remarkable array of unmoderated nonsensical garbage that accumulates in these forums is just as absurd.

I mostly agree with your sentiments. There definitely is a common bond which unites us. I also have adopted a live and live outlook on matters of belief so, although my take on religion is basically the diametric opposite of yours, I also realize that it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things. In addition, matters of belief are generally personal and not of anyone's concern. I usually would not just come out and ask someone about their personal beliefs. However, when someone (such as yourself) has a signature that is a bible quote then I believe I have every right to ask questions about it (since you are making, or atleast alluding to, a public display of belief)-- just as you have every right to ignore my query if you so desire.

Again, I find your use of a bible quote in your signature to be...not something I would do. But also nothing I would ever make a big stink over. Perhaps it will even have a positive effect by courting the sizable theistic camp within the scientific community. Heh, you never know, right?

PS -- I agree with you, there is far too much "nonsensical garbage" on this site and I would love to hear your solution to this problem either in PM or in the leadership forum.

Sincerely
DonS

[caliban]

Reference of moderation sources sticky?, How do you report a stalker?

I think this suggestion has been adopted and the question has been adressed.

[Chip]

Certainly went off topic. Is this my first for the catcher?

Giordano Bruno, do I feel your pain?

[Chip]

DonSpanton "I am currently a member of a conservative Greek orthodox family."

Oh well, we can't all be fortunate.

DonSpanton "I agree with you, there is far too much "nonsensical garbage" on this site and I would love to hear your solution to this problem either in PM or in the leadership forum."

"They say there is strangeness too dangerous
In our theaters and bookstore shelves.
That those who know what's best for us
Must rise and save us from ourselves."

from "Witch Hunt" by Rush

[Chip]

Caliban, been thinking, excuse me. After tiktok's post that was definitely not about the subject of the thread, most of the content of most posts was about another suggestion topic, see the corruption of Imminst and seek to remove it. If you moved this thread to the "Suggestions" category with that subject "See the corruption of Imminst: Seek to remove it." I will delete my last three posts including this one and the discussion can continue on topic.

Of course, I don't really expect that to happen. It's kind of like asking those who own to own up.

[justinb]

(since you are making, or atleast alluding to, a public display of belief)

What? How is citing a biblical passage a display of belief? Following this logic, citing a passage from a book made by a Marxist is thus supporting Marxism. BS.

Some imagination, please. I know I am coming off as a dick. I am in a faul mood and nothing I say is meant to be offensive, although it definitely is. What I am saying is true and should have been obvious to anyone. Simply citing a passage out of a book doesn't show any inclination to anything, what-so-ever.

Anyways.... my apologies for my faul air.

[DJS]

*sigh* I guess this serves me right for not asking this question to Prometheus directly through PM. Now I am left having to deal with the peanut gallery. Okay Justin, here is my one and only response. However, if you wish to continue this conversation than please feel free to talk to yourself here in the Catcher.

What? How is citing a biblical passage a display of belief?

If you use it as your signature it is. Just as the signature that I use for myself is a statement of belief. A statement incorporated into a sig can generally be seen as an endorsement.

Following this logic, citing a passage from a book made by a marxists is thus supporting Marxism. BS.

No, your logic is flawed Justin. Including a quote from Das Kapital in one's signature does not mean that he or she supports Marxism as a whole, but it does generally mean that they support an idea express within the text.

The point of my query was to understand the motivation behind the use of a particular signature.

[justinb]

You are missing my point. What I am saying is, he likes what the sentence says, because it is in his signature. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." What does the fact that it came out of the bible have to do with anything? It could have come from anywhere! That sentence alone does not express a Christian belief. Assuming that it is a statement of any belief is in error. You must ask him what it means to him. You assumed, please admit that.


EDIT:

My apologies for being snippy.

[caliban]

If you moved this thread to the "Suggestions" category with that subject "See the corruption of Imminst: Seek to remove it." I will delete my last three posts including this one and the discussion can continue on topic.

Chip, I am afraid this thread has ventured into multiple incompatible directions including discussion about SENS and religion. Kindly open a new topic collating your various concerns in a concise manner.

While the Suggestions forum would be a possible venue for such a topic, given your concerns about corruption I'd reccomend the free speech forum as an alternative where moderation is very restricted.

[Chip]

Yes, this thing has wandered all over. I did post into the Suggestions category as I did it before you suggested "Free Speech." The post I made has dissapeared. Maybe it has been moved to somewhere else but I don't see it and I haven't time right now to go look for it. If any one knows why it has dissapeared from the Suggestions category, I'd appreciate a little explanation.

Why the "last" enemy, Harold? Why not first and formost? Have you other enemies that take priority? BTW, the bible is not the only scripture.

Harold: "Why should death need to be conquered when it is only a gateway to next plane of existence?"

"The plane! The plane!" I found "Flatland" to be an interesting exposition but I don't think the author meant it to be taken as a description of our existence.

Oh, caliban, found it here: http://www.imminst.o...t=0

Uh, exactly what kind of powers does Harold have?

[Chip]

Everybody believes in themself, Harold. If you want to suggest that I am wasting mine and yours and the institute's time, is it because I am not a paying member that I can not suggest that one, namely yourself, have done a great deal of this wasting of time and resources and the integrity of Imminst? Tell me exactly how I was wrong in finding your wasting of the institute's resources with your attempt to twist euthenasia to political placation, your commendation of one who was practically nothing but waste and blather as totally undermining Imminst as a waste and portending even more egregious wasting through time if not caught and corrected. Tell me how this apparent waste of time and resources and the good ship, Imminst, by myself was not a direct response to your grand staging and waste of the very same. I don't like this waste. I'd rather be spending my time investigating with little comment in hopes of finding group investigative powers to enhance my own. Can you own up to your own callous disregard of the user agreement, your own waste of this forum and Imminst? NO!

I am not calling for your banning from Imminst. I am not seeking to have you lessen the number of posts you make. I do not like to see any one get ostracized. I am stating that the evidence is blatant to any who have the wherewithal to observe that you cannot handle power, that you abuse it, that you endorse abuse of this forum, wasting of time and resources, wasting of good relations, of trust and open dialogue. I am suggesting that you be stripped of those powers. I am suggesting this so that the waste may diminish. If the patriotism for the institution caters to "my leaders, right or wrong" then Imminst is a lost cause. Unnecessary and uncalled for censoring, intimidation, lying, those are the things I don't like. That is the waste that threatens to grow like a cancer if Imminst allows it to continue.

"As to other enemies, I think the verse in the Bible is seeking to emphasize the enormity of the challenge posed by such an "enemy" - enemy in this case being a metaphorical device."

Hmmm. I guess then you did not mean what you said. Death is not THE enemy, non-methaphorically speaking? Just gets more confusing and nonsensical to me and indicative that there is something about you that does not embrace the goal of Imminst. When can I trust that you are not using metaphor? Isn't it about time to talk some straight turkey, metaphorically speaking of couse?

[Chip]

Harold, some times you have no recourse to seeking communication and must level nothing but insult. Address the points of discussion rather than attack me, personally, especially as a member of the staff of this forum. At times, when some one disagrees with you, all you can do is seek to "kill the messenger." That is not in keeping with seeking to end the blight of involuntary death. It is me now. I see evidence that you have used this approach with others who disagree with your reasonings. I suspect, if Imminst can not see this, such behavior will continue and others will, have, jumped on the band wagon and the noise obscuring courteous relations, defeating semantic content, will increase.

[jaydfox]

I can see I have missed all of the fun.  [lol]  . Can't we all just get along?

Prometheus, I trust my absence was a well needed reprieve. However, all good things must come to an end [tung]  Seriously though I hope you and Mr. fox can let bygones be bygones and focus on the creation of the future rather than our less than ideal past discussions.

Hehe, as amusing as this discussion has been, I wasn't going to get involved until I saw this reply. Karomesis, I hope you don't confuse me with Chip. We have our similarities, to different degrees, such as a compelling pull to see conspiracies in the government and economy. But by and large we are two quite different people.

Is it possible to reconcile fairy tales with science? well I suppose fairy tales are interesting and useful insofar as thier designation as a form of entertainment, when its illusion is shattered by logic then there is no more use of it; those who would attempt to draw childish analogies between the two are undeserving of legitamite scientific acclaim. Rather, they are to be pitied.

A fine sentiment that you are entitled to, though as a former Christian, I can say with quite some confidence that Christianity and science are not diametrically opposed, but are more or less orthogonal, and they can peacefully co-exist even under moderate to heavy rational scrutiny.

In my case, at the deepest levels of scrutiny over the course of nearly a year, my beliefs were eventually shattered, but I'm young and weak-minded, so perhaps a stronger mind could reconcile where I could not? The point is, I pity those who without having deep insights into both science and religion, would make statements like yours, that people who believe in Christianity and try to reconcile it to science "are to be pitied". I'd expect a comment like that to be directed at the millions of sheep who voted for Bush for "moral" reasons, but not to be directed at someone like Prometheus. He strikes me as the type who has a strong mind, and if he can reconcile religion to science, it is you that ought to be pitied.

[jaydfox]

it is you that ought to be pitied.

I apologize, Karomesis, that was an ad hominem. I suppose I'm no better for making the statement than you for making yours. Let us both withdraw our statements and stop judging people for their beliefs. Let's just focus on conquering death.

[susmariosep]

What's my impression from this thread, of Chip?


Well, I have finished this thread.

Who's right and who's wrong?

Everyone seems to have valid reasons for their messages and their concerns and the positions they have established.

One thing for sure, if the differences have to do with physically measurable entities, like who is of a skin complexion or height or weight, then the disputes would not go on and on.

Which goes to show that when we go into the realm of thought everyone is reasonable, meaning possessed of reasons for their views.


Now, what's my impression of Chip? He's one guy you have got to be careful with your words, because he sees into your assumptions and presumptions and what those guys in philosophy call paradigms, and tends to detect loopholes in them and tells you so.

What is the adjective that comes to mind, to do him justice? What about this phrase, a cantankerous pundit?

(This is an experiment. Hahahaha and hehehehe.)


I will now proceed to read the third of three threads Chip brought up in evidence against Prometheus for his charges against one Harold Brenner, aka Prometheus.


Susma