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Vimmortal 2.0 - Progress, hurdles? Open source?

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#1 onz

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:09 AM


Hi,

I'm curious as to what challenges and hurdles are keeping this from being developed?

I'm asking because I might be able to help, I am willing to set this up, but obviously need certain information such as specific ingredients, potential difficulties, etc. and also need to know whether or not Anthony has production on the horizon.

Would love to be the one to bring this back to life :)
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#2 onz

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:42 AM

Is anyone able to provide me with a comprehensive list of the final ingredients so I can check how feasible it will be to source?...

#3 Mind

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 09:15 PM

The only hurdle is finding a reputable manufacturer who will produce a small run of the product for a reasonable cost.

#4 Mind

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 09:20 PM

Here is a link to almost the entire ingredient list, which should be enough to get a rough estimate on cost and capable manufacturers.
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#5 niner

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 09:59 PM

Anthony seems to have fallen off the face of the Earth. Anyone know what became of him?

#6 PWAIN

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:42 PM

Anthony seems to have fallen off the face of the Earth. Anyone know what became of him?


He had a fight remember....guess he's not talking to anyone anymore :).
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#7 YOLF

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:06 AM

So no more vimmortal? I'd be interested in making this happen as a group buy. I'd want to go through the ingredient selection again. I'm actually of the opinion that there is far too much folic acid in our diets to begin with and that it should be a separate supplement taken as needed to round out one's diet as 100mcg tabs/caps for instance.

I recently read this article and there's so much B9(folate) added to every food that it's kind of ridiculous. You can be 3mcg away from a toxic brain lesion causing dose from just serving (table below copied from link below). I think I'd rather have a 100mcg folate/folic acid pill given the current folate insanity in the food industry.

Micrograms (mcg) of folic acid in fortified foods

Food mcg
Rice, white, long-grain, enriched, dry, 1 cup 797
Kellogg’s Product 19, 1 cup 676
Kellogg’s Special K, 1 cup 676
General Mills Total Raisin Bran, 1 cup 673
Corn meal, self-rising, enriched, 1 cup 518
General Mills Cheerios, 1 cup 493
Quaker Oat Life, plain, ¾ cup 452
Wheat flour, white, enriched, 1 cup 364
Noodles, egg, enriched, cooked, 1 cup 221
Source: USDA National Nutrient Database


http://www.health.ha...rtification.htm

#8 onz

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:17 AM

Thanks Mind, I have sent off an enquiry based on the list in that thread. It will be fairly general though without knowing the specific forms and dosages... In that thread you mention the expert panel were close to a final formulation, anything further on this would be a great help.

Cryonics, you make a fair point, I'm unsure what previous discussion has occurred to decide on B9, but there was a solid vote http://www.longecity...amin-b9-folate/

There is still a small window to fine tune the formula, but considering how much time has passed, I assume all the necessary points have been raised, discussed, examined, and reasonably decided upon. (although I noticed mk7 is included with mk4, IMO mk4 obsoletes MK7, and I've read of mk7 causing teeth/gum problems)


excited to get this up and running =D

#9 sthira

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 09:47 AM

Anthony seems to have fallen off the face of the Earth. Anyone know what became of him?


He had a fight remember....guess he's not talking to anyone anymore :).


And he was taking massive doses of c60oo. I hope he's okay.

#10 YOLF

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 10:51 AM

Well it looks like he's still selling products.

#11 onz

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:33 AM

Ok. I finally have some answers.

 

Australian regulations aren't ideal when it comes to multivitamins. Starting with the usual costs to list the formula with the TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration), we were looking at $2700 including the regulatory affairs cost to submit all necessary documentation. That was kind of expected. But then came the stability testing.

 

A few years ago the TGA made yearly stability testing mandatory for all active ingredients within a supplement product. Stability testing tests the shelf life of each ingredient. This testing is priced per active ingredient. The total cost to perform this testing on one ingredient in a multivitamin is around $1000. With the list Mind provided me, we have around 24 ingredients in V2.0, so this would be a total of $26,700 just to meet regulatory obligations!

 

 

Clearly this is not feasible. So we have an alternative, and as far as costs go, a very good alternative:

 

Implement the Vimmortal formula into a soluble fruit flavoured powder, much like a protein powder but without the protein. This way it would be classified as a "foodstuff" and therefor doesn't have to comply with the above regulatory nonsense.

 

I need feedback on this, are people still happy to take Vimmortal if it has to be in powder flavoured drink form? 

 

There is only one aspect I will ensure with this product, and that is a very low/no sugar content. I have also already been told that the ratios of the ingredients will stay consistent throughout the powder.

 

Dosage will be based on a 6 gram serving, which is quite a modest amount of powder in comparison to protein powders. And regarding cost, without giving exact prices yet, I'm nearly certain it will be cheaper per dose than the original.

 

There is one last note, it's unlikely that we'll be able to include lithium due to regulations.



#12 onz

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:52 AM

One more thing, I need to gather a consensus as what to use in place of sugar. I've personally never had health concerns with sugar substitutes, so it's up to you :)



#13 PWAIN

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 10:29 AM

Maybe have the sweetener/flavour as an additional packet and if someone wants to use something else then they can. As a sweetener, possibly stevia or my preference is erythritol, maybe some chocolate and strawberry flavour options? By leaving the sweetener out, we still have the option to cap it ourselves. Would also be nice to be able to add any thing we want ourselves (like lithium) if we want a bit more in the multi.

I'm in Melbourne too so if you want some help with this, I'll do what I can (pm me).
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#14 niner

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:06 PM

I think that the next problem will be the cost of ingredients.  Some of them have minimum purchase amounts ranging from 1 to 25 kg, even if all you need is a few grams.  Costs might be thousands of USD per ingredient.  The next problem will be formulation- what if the hydrophobes want to clump together so that the powder content differs from one scoop to the next?   It will be hard to break even on this financially if you price it at a level people are willing to pay.  Multivitamins are a really tough part of the supplement business.  Either you do a mainstream product with cheap ingredients or you sell it for a hundred bucks a bottle...



#15 onz

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:41 PM

PWAIN, I was considering having an alternative version without any of the flavour mix for people to cap themselves, 6g serving is only about 5-6 caps, even less with the flav/sweetener. Having said that, including the flavour sachet separately is a great idea! That way I don't have to have two products. Thanks for offering to help, looks fine for now but I'll keep you in mind.

 

Niner, good news is the cost for most of the ingredients isn't a problem, but the minimum purchase issue could be a concern for some of the less common ingredients. The consistency of the powder was one of my first questions and I was assured it would be fine, I'll confirm this further by asking for technical details and requesting proof via before and after analysis of the mixture.

 

I do still need a complete list of forms and dosages intended for V2, some of the ingredients don't have RDAs, and many have various forms.



#16 Mind

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:02 PM

When I was in discussion about this last year, I seem to recall that manufacturing in the U.S. we would only need about $20,000 start up cash to do a run about about 1,000 bottles (one month supply). That is just off the top of my head. I would have to look through my messages and emails to see if I can find out for sure about the cost.



#17 PWAIN

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:36 PM

I do still need a complete list of forms and dosages intended for V2, some of the ingredients don't have RDAs, and many have various forms.


Have you been provided with this yet?

#18 onz

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:08 PM

Not yet, I've taken to going one by one through the 2.0 Design: Amounts & Forms sub forums, but they do leave a few unanswered questions.

 

Regarding forms, I've so far found that 15 out of the 24 ingredients from the link Mind posted, will be in their natural forms extracted from various plants — these have been conveniently sourced and will be the main factor to keep the cost nice and reasonable. From a marketing perspective, it would be great if V2 could be made up entirely of natural forms, and there does seem to be a common theme with synthetic variants causing problems (with exceptions).

 

Was a final formulation including forms and dosages developed in the Expert Panel forum? It would save me a bit of time :)

 

One consideration with the separate flavour sachet idea is this may very well remove the classification from 'foodstuff' to 'supplement'. I'll suss it out.

 

Also, Cryonics culture, I looked into the B9 issue, and it only appears problematic with folic acid, not folate. Folate is the form I've sourced for V2 :) here's a nice summary http://www.hsph.harv...rce/folic-acid/



#19 pamojja

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:11 PM

The only hurdle is finding a reputable manufacturer who will produce a small run of the product for a reasonable cost.

 

Just realized that LEF, besides many variations of it's main Multi Mix (with, or without copper, more niacin, etc.) now even produces a LEF mix version for the European market (without that much NAC, registered as medicine in some European countries).

 

Then they produce a Two-per-day many times multiples of what Vimmortal would contain, however, with high quality ingredients and at a ridiculous low price. So maybe someone could ask them if they are willing to consider making a special version with such tiny amounts as wished by the Vimmortal designers ? (personally I'm totally satisfied with a Two-per-day ;-), at the same price. LEF would make a huge profit that way ;)



#20 YOLF

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:06 PM

Not yet, I've taken to going one by one through the 2.0 Design: Amounts & Forms sub forums, but they do leave a few unanswered questions.

 

Regarding forms, I've so far found that 15 out of the 24 ingredients from the link Mind posted, will be in their natural forms extracted from various plants — these have been conveniently sourced and will be the main factor to keep the cost nice and reasonable. From a marketing perspective, it would be great if V2 could be made up entirely of natural forms, and there does seem to be a common theme with synthetic variants causing problems (with exceptions).

 

Was a final formulation including forms and dosages developed in the Expert Panel forum? It would save me a bit of time :)

 

One consideration with the separate flavour sachet idea is this may very well remove the classification from 'foodstuff' to 'supplement'. I'll suss it out.

 

Also, Cryonics culture, I looked into the B9 issue, and it only appears problematic with folic acid, not folate. Folate is the form I've sourced for V2 :) here's a nice summary http://www.hsph.harv...rce/folic-acid/

Ah! That jogs my memory! My search terms for it at the time were "folic acid upper limit" or something like that. As long as it comes without folic acid, that sounds good. Folate looks fine.



#21 Mind

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:27 PM

 

The only hurdle is finding a reputable manufacturer who will produce a small run of the product for a reasonable cost.

 

Just realized that LEF, besides many variations of it's main Multi Mix (with, or without copper, more niacin, etc.) now even produces a LEF mix version for the European market (without that much NAC, registered as medicine in some European countries).

 

Then they produce a Two-per-day many times multiples of what Vimmortal would contain, however, with high quality ingredients and at a ridiculous low price. So maybe someone could ask them if they are willing to consider making a special version with such tiny amounts as wished by the Vimmortal designers ? (personally I'm totally satisfied with a Two-per-day ;-), at the same price. LEF would make a huge profit that way ;)

 

 

It wouldn't hurt to ask LEF, right? They have the expertise. Any reason to NOT approach them? 



#22 onz

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 08:26 AM

Is anyone going to action this? I'll be holding off until we get a response from them.. . Should only take a couple of days for them to reply?

#23 onz

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:15 AM

Has anyone followed this up with LEF?.. I'm kinda getting the impression there is little interest in Vimmortal :/



#24 onz

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 12:20 PM

I'll email them this weekend  :cool:



#25 PWAIN

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 01:28 PM

I'll email them this weekend  :cool:


Plenty of interest here, just not sure how to help. Probably best if you contact them since you have a better idea of what needs to be done.

#26 onz

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 02:25 AM

I have contacted them via their 'contact us' form, no direct email address.

 

I have to admit there was some reluctance on my side to do this, partly because I often don't like the marketing techniques used by LEF (non sequiturs, lacking caveats, cherry picking, etc), but mostly because their would be less of a connection with Longecity/SENS in comparison with my intentions.

 

On the other hand, not being able to provide Vimmortal in pill form is the downside to my endeavours, so if LEF can pull through - with an acceptable cost - that would be great.

 

I would expect they have an account on this forum or would benefit from having one, I wonder why they never picked this up. If they show interest when they reply, I'll invite them to start a thread for further discussion :)



#27 Geekjock

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 04:33 PM

Hi guys-

 

I'm based in the US and have a couple friends who've worked with contract manufacturers.

 

I'd be happy to be a US-based liason for this project if there's anyway I can help with research or contacting manufacturers.

 

Also, since I'm new to this forum and am catching up — what RDA table are the percentages listed in the ingredient list (from the other thread Mind linked to) based on?

 



#28 Mind

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 12:39 PM

I emailed LEF but didn't get a response. I haven't had time to place a phone call yet. Sorry about that.



#29 onz

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:22 PM

Hey, sorry about the delay, a few days ago I got this response from LEF:

 

"Thank you for your recent correspondence. 


Life Extension advocates for multivitamins to be “ideally” dosed. Unfortunately, while the Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDAs) provide good nutritional guidelines to prevent deficiencies, they provide little value in terms of optimizing overall health and longevity. Additionally, for your reference, the RDIs (Reference Daily Intakes) used for nutrition labeling are based on extremely outdated RDAs from 1968. 

Life Extension has carefully selected the dosages of vitamins and minerals in our products to be safe and ideal doses to promote optimal metabolic function. The dosages we include in our products are based on extensive research and published literature. For example, the RDA for Vitamin D in adults is 600 IU daily until age 70, at which point the RDA is increased to 800 IU daily. This is typically an insufficient for most people to achieve ideal vitamin D blood levels. Life Extension advocates people maintain their 25-OH-Vitamin D levels between 50-80 ng/mL, which requires most people to supplement with at least 2000 IU, and often times between 5000-8000 IU.

More information regarding the importance of optimal vitamin D levels, please reference the following article:

http://www.lef.org/m...eceptors_01.htm

Nonetheless, your feedback is greatly appreciated, and we will take it into consideration in future product revisions."

 

You'll likely get a better response by calling them I think



#30 onz

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:31 PM

Hi Abi,

 

My understanding was that RDAs/RDIs are simply guidelines set by governments for optimal intake to stay healthy, some are debatable from a supplement perspective so they're likely determined with dietary intake from food in mind. They can differ from country to country but are relatively the same.







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