26 replies to this topic

[Philosopher]

Hello everyone, I'm sorry to sound desperate but I'm in utter desperation; I think my life is on the line. I don't know how to stop this horrid addiction. I've been hospitalized twice for serious illnesses and high fevers, but it's only now that I've realized every one of my serious illnesses was preceded with a cold turkey discontinuation of sulbutiamine.

To start the story off, I found out about Sulbutiamine a year ago, I thought it was the perfect supplement - the miracle drug. I've been taking it almost regularly for a year now - dosages usually exceeding 500mg. It did wonders for my social anxiety and motivation, I truly started to feel as though I couldn't function at my peak without it. I thought it gave me a huge step up in life; it perfected my personality. I'm not sure how much of this is true. I did have some significant, good, life-changing events while undergoing sulbutiamine treatment. I don't want to talk about how great my life has been on it though, because the cons I've experienced may not be worth the risk.

Anyways, right now I'm panicking because I don't know how to wean myself off of this sulbutiamine. It's very difficult. I'm a sophomore in uni and it gets very serious and utterly miserable at certain times. At certain times I though I would die from my illness/withdrawal. How can I be sure it is the sulbutiamine? Well, it goes like this.

• I stop taking sulbutiamine
  
• I start getting flu like symptoms - severe muscle aches, pain and fatigue, high fevers over 104 (i've had 107 at one point), throat pain, extreme tiredness and lethargy
  
• I panic, wondering why I get sick so often; what is wrong with me?
  
• The symptoms get worse and worse, and I eventually I end up going to the hospital, and get diagnosed with a viral infection/flu, and/or I unwittingly take sulbutiamine again

This has happened a couple times, and I've been undergoing it these past couple of days as well.
I felt better after taking 500mg today, and I took 800mg ibuprofen soon after. I haven't gone for special treatment yet, because it hasn't gotten as bad as it had gotten before. I just feel scared and trapped.

This is a horrible cycle, and I don't want to risk my health even if it can get me many riches. Somebody please tell me what is going on, I don't understand.

I've been taking sulbutiamine regularly for a long long time now, and if anyone has had a similar experience please share so I don't sound crazy. I'm very worried about myself and other people; it's an innocent escapade that leads to grim results.

God bless all of you for reading this

Edited by Philosopher, 01 April 2014 - 06:18 PM.

[midas]

If it is a addiction the sulbutiamine that is causing the problem suddenly not taking it is about the worst thing you can do.
My advice would be to slowly wean yourself off it over a few weeks in small increments, especially as you seem to have been taking such a large dosage over a long period of time....If I were in your shoes and was used to taking 500mg per day I would reduce it by 50mg a day over seven day intervals..eg 450mg per day for a week then 400mg per day for the next week and so on...

It may of course be that you have an underlying viral issue or something else but if you are going to find out if the sulbutiamine is the problem or not, you need to let your body slowly adapt to the change rather than abruptly cutting it off....

Good luck......

[YOLF]

Vitamin C can cause immune dependency. Perhaps sulbutiamine can do the same? When immune dependency occurs, the body may have difficulty ddealing with even small infections that would usually go unnoticed. I've never looked into reversing immune dependency though and I'm not sure what the prognosis is. Keep us posted if you decide to do the research.

[Philosopher]

Abstract


OBJECTIVE:

Dopamine exists in the immune system and has obvious immunomodulating action. However, receptor mechanism underlying the dopamine immunomodulation remains to be clarified. In the present study, we provide the evidence for existence of dopamine receptor subtypes in T lymphocytes and show the roles of the receptors and the receptor-coupled signaling in mediating the dopamine immunomodulation.
METHODS:

The purified T lymphocytes from the mesenteric lymph nodes of mice were detected for expressions of all five subtypes of dopamine receptor mRNAs by reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction. Lymphocyte proliferation and production of interferon-γ (IFN-γ) and interleukin-4 (IL-4) in response to concanavalin A (Con A) were measured by colorimetric methyl-thiazole-tetrazolium assay and cytometric bead array, respectively, after the cells were exposed to dopamine D1-like or D2-like receptor agonists and antagonists. Meanwhile, content of cAMP and phosphorylation of cAMP-response element-binding (CREB) in the lymphocytes were examined by 125I-cAMP radioimmunoassay and Western blot assay, respectively.
RESULTS:

T lymphocytes expressed all the five subtypes of dopamine receptor mRNAs, i.e., D1, D2, D3, D4 and D5 receptors. SKF38393, an agonist of dopamine D1-like receptors (D1 and D5 receptors) only reduced the IFN-γ production, but did not significantly affect the proliferative response, IL-4 production, cAMP content or CREB activation of the lymphocytes. The SKF38393-induced decrease in IFN-γ level was blocked by the D1-like receptor antagonist SCH23390. Quinpirole, an agonist of dopamine D2-like receptors (D2, D3 and D4 receptors) attenuated the lymphocyte proliferation to Con A, and decreased the IFN-γ but increased the IL-4 production. Meanwhile, the quinpirole diminished the cAMP content and the phosphorylated CREB level in the lymphocytes. All the quinpirole-induced changes were reversed by dopamine D2-like receptor antagonist haloperidol.
CONCLUSIONS:

Five dopamine receptor subtypes of the two families, D1-like and D2-like receptors, exist on T lymphocytes of mice. Of the two families, D2-like receptors are more important in mediating modulation of T cell function than D1-like receptors. D2-like receptors are involved in suppression of T helper 1 (Th1) cell function and enhancement of Th2 cell function through negative link to cAMP-CREB pathway.

There definitely is an underlying virus/disease. I currently have a painful lump in my neck, and almost always when I'm having problems my lymph nodes explode.


I'm starting to think that abrupt cessation of sulbutiamine abruptly kills off the all the D1 receptors the body was normally dependent on to stay alive and kill viruses.


It does seem similar to megadosing vitamin c for a while, then getting unbearably ill once you stop.

[koala_muncher]

Seriously Philosopher, you need to urgently see a doctor. Your dopamine receptors have likely been unregulated and likely suffering from severe withdrawal effects when you stop. Someone needs to look at ALL of the supplements/meds you are taking to try and untangle interactions. The biggest danger is not the withdrawal, but the risks of self-harm and suicidal thoughts that may come in withdrawal when the ahedonia kicks in. Make an appointment with your doctor and tell them what's going on along with a frank disclosure of what you are taking. They may refer you to a psychiatrist or treat directly. You may require bridging medication, social support, or even hospitalization. Let me know how you go, if you want to chat PM me.

[Philosopher]

Seriously Philosopher, you need to urgently see a doctor. Your dopamine receptors have likely been unregulated and likely suffering from severe withdrawal effects when you stop. Someone needs to look at ALL of the supplements/meds you are taking to try and untangle interactions. The biggest danger is not the withdrawal, but the risks of self-harm and suicidal thoughts that may come in withdrawal when the ahedonia kicks in. Make an appointment with your doctor and tell them what's going on along with a frank disclosure of what you are taking. They may refer you to a psychiatrist or treat directly. You may require bridging medication, social support, or even hospitalization. Let me know how you go, if you want to chat PM me.

There's no psychiatric problem, trust me on that one. It's an immune system problem that I need to address.

[renfr]

Maybe taking vitamin D with it can alleviate these immune symptoms.

I took sulbutiamine for over a month and never got such problems after getting rid of it, I don't think it has anything to do with any kind of withdrawal. Sulbutiamine is basically lipophilic thiamine. It could be that sulbutiamine hid your immune problems when you were on it.

Edited by renfr, 02 April 2014 - 06:31 PM.

[Philosopher]

Maybe taking vitamin D with it can alleviate these immune symptoms.

I took sulbutiamine for over a month and never got such problems after getting rid of it, I don't think it has anything to do with any kind of withdrawal. Sulbutiamine is basically lipophilic thiamine. It could be that sulbutiamine hid your immune problems when you were on it.

I never had any immune problems before starting sulbutiamine. I don't have any immune problems while taking sulbutiamine. I'm perfectly fine and healthy and functioning while I take sulbutiamine. Trust me when I tell you I've been taking it for over a year now, and my body definitely feels reliant on it. It's a wonderful supplement, but reminds me too much of making a pact with the devil.

[Ultravioletbllc]

What other illicit substances have ( had) you been taking with it ? Be honest here I'd really love too know more about this as I've undergone treatments with sulbutiamine relating too chronic fatigue induced by opiate dependency my dose was higher and while too be completely transparent the longest I ever took it was 2 months ( when I decided it was time too step off the opiate cloud ) I am very interested

[StevesPetRat]

Slow taper + DHA + uridine + exercise + a lot of sleep is my "professional" opinion.

[StevesPetRat]

You think you have a chronic virus though? You could try olive leaf extract and lysine as well.

[Gr888Scott]

Okay.

 

 

Please, ease up and don't panic. We'll get this figured out.

 

First of all, a preface. I have done extremely extensive research regarding Sulbutiamine. There is no evidence, even obliquely, that Sulbutiamine exhibits any addictive properties. Closest too it was when a guy started taking doses above 2 grams daily and felt so good he blew off his other psych meds because the Sulbutiamine made him feel so good. It only made the "Adverse effects" category because the reviewing doctors said that his ability to stop the psych meds was a negative effect. No other elaboration was made so it seems we are to assume that same cessation did not result in a critical outcome.

 

For reason's of my own, I will say I have first hand knowledge of Sulbutiamine taken twice daily of up to 1000mg over a period of about 5 months has not resulted in physical or psychological  addiction upon abrupt cessation.

 

 

 

The origins of Sulbutiamine are found in the treatment of Beri Beri. Without making a bunch of quotes read here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriberi

 

then here:

 

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Sulbutiamine

 

And let's discuss this, at least from  Sulbutiamine's part of it.

 

Okay, so you obviously have something happening. If it is truly and exclusively organic, then IMHO you may have (or have developed) a requirement for B-1 that exceeds the average daily requirement.(An actual form of Beri Beri)

 

Now before you scoff at this, read the above wiki entries, and consider this. Sulbutiamine  was developed to treat Beri Beri and it's characteristic of lack of B-1 and/or it's bioavailability.

 

I started extensive research a couple of decades ago on Vitamin C and all it's effects; good, bad, in between and anomalous. There is what has been described as "rebound Scurvy" with large doses of vitamin C. Meaning, you take high doses for a while, your body gets accustomed to that condition as normal and then registers the immediate imbalance as Scurvy (which was the first semi-modern medical reference made about Vitamin C; That is the preferred treatment for Scurvy.) even though you did not actually have Scurvy in the first place.

 

If this is the same situation in parallel, then you could be exhibiting symptoms of everything (or anything) Sulbutiamine effectively remedies.

 

That is, Beri Beri, and/or Asthenia and/or Psycho-behavioural inhibition (and any plethora of psychological effects) and etcetera.

 

Our society has programmed us to see the "big, ugly scary devil" as addiction (hiding around the corner waiting to pounce upon us at it's very first opportunity) yet when you take the created (politically driven) stigma away you have something simple.

 

A system that is out of balance. Plain and simple.

 

Nothing else. And though all the symptoms (less the psychological ones, with the application of this simple revelation) are still there, they can be more easily addressed without the added 12 step meetings, support groups and/or shrinks that oft times simply are the equivalent of a hand holder(s).

 

So. Put the panic on hold. If it were me,(and for some weird  reason I wanted to stop something that has so many benefits) I would gradual reduce (and record, you absolutely must write it down, especially if panic is messing you up) your dosage from your highest current dosage in increments of 25mg a day. So that in just under 3 months you cease administration of what you feel is the problem, i.e. Sulbutiamine.

 

 

But I really don't think it's the Sulbutiamine that's the problem. See, when something is a good thing and effects positive productive developments in your life, that's all it is...a good thing. Remember, we're talking about Vitamin B-1 in a tuxedo, all dressed up. But still, a vitamin.

 

Think of it this way. Hypothetically, of course.

 

If someone came along and said " Hey, I am going to give you a dream job that puts $1,000,000 in your bank account every month with zero stress and no downside" and it was legit, real, legal and did not offend your personal ethics/morals, you'd probably take it. And all the benefits that would accompany  that kind of coin.

 

Now, a year or so down the road, with nothing but good developments and all the dreams and goals coming true, let's say you stopped and said " Oh crap, I've got to stop this, it might be an addiction" and in doing so the benefits started fading etc.

 

Would you blame it on the money/job and try to get yourself  "unaddicted"?

 

I wouldn't.

 

It's like if you need glasses because your vision on it's own is lacking, well, alot of folks go get glasses. Without knowing your medical history I can only guess, butI am assuming you started Sulbutiamine with a reason or goal for doing such. If you have a need and Sulbutiamine fills it, that's all it is.

 

 

 

 

But, hey it's just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit/Add:

 

Here's a file, it's the one I referenced earlier. I have a lot of different files on Sulbutiamine and it's positive effects. Unfortunately the good ones exceed the 2mg upload cap.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Attached Files

•  sulbutiamine.pdf   227.1KB   42 downloads

Edited by Gr888Scott, 19 May 2014 - 09:53 PM.

[Philosopher]

What other illicit substances have ( had) you been taking with it ? Be honest here I'd really love too know more about this as I've undergone treatments with sulbutiamine relating too chronic fatigue induced by opiate dependency my dose was higher and while too be completely transparent the longest I ever took it was 2 months ( when I decided it was time too step off the opiate cloud ) I am very interested

 

 

Only alcohol. I've gotten drunk sometimes while on it, but nothing else. I don't do any other drugs. 

[Philosopher]

You think you have a chronic virus though? You could try olive leaf extract and lysine as well.

 

I can't be sure, because the symptoms almost always assuredly follow sulbutiamine cessation, but that could just be faulty causation. I just know that if I keep taking sulbutiamine, I don't get sick.

[Philosopher]

Hi. Yes, so, I really want to know the safety profile for sulbutiamine. I have a burning desire to relate it to caffeine, but I'm not sure I'm ready to take that step yet. You keep saying that it's definitely not addictive, but I'd like to here that from someone who hasn't taken the stuff for 5months. The way I see it, is that it needs to be even a little bit addictive to be proper, just like caffeine. And hey, caffeine is not all that bad. You can take it for years! But the problem I'm getting with sulbutiamine is recurrent illness that's really impossible to pinpoint the cause of, except for sulbutiamine. 

 

But thank you for sharing your experience, I'm very glad that you told me sulbutiamine did nothing bad to you. Now all I need is about a hundred more people to tell me that, and I will keep on taking it forever. Hell, I'll even throw it in a drink and sell it haha. But if sulbutiamine really is a problem, like mercury turned out to be, then I'm tossing the stuff right away!

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay.

 

 

Please, ease up and don't panic. We'll get this figured out.

 

First of all, a preface. I have done extremely extensive research regarding Sulbutiamine. There is no evidence, even obliquely, that Sulbutiamine exhibits any addictive properties. Closest too it was when a guy started taking doses above 2 grams daily and felt so good he blew off his other psych meds because the Sulbutiamine made him feel so good. It only made the "Adverse effects" category because the reviewing doctors said that his ability to stop the psych meds was a negative effect. No other elaboration was made so it seems we are to assume that same cessation did not result in a critical outcome.

 

For reason's of my own, I will say I have first hand knowledge of Sulbutiamine taken twice daily of up to 1000mg over a period of about 5 months has not resulted in physical or psychological  addiction upon abrupt cessation.

 

 

 

The origins of Sulbutiamine are found in the treatment of Beri Beri. Without making a bunch of quotes read here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriberi

 

then here:

 

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Sulbutiamine

 

And let's discuss this, at least from  Sulbutiamine's part of it.

 

Okay, so you obviously have something happening. If it is truly and exclusively organic, then IMHO you may have (or have developed) a requirement for B-1 that exceeds the average daily requirement.(An actual form of Beri Beri)

 

Now before you scoff at this, read the above wiki entries, and consider this. Sulbutiamine  was developed to treat Beri Beri and it's characteristic of lack of B-1 and/or it's bioavailability.

 

I started extensive research a couple of decades ago on Vitamin C and all it's effects; good, bad, in between and anomalous. There is what has been described as "rebound Scurvy" with large doses of vitamin C. Meaning, you take high doses for a while, your body gets accustomed to that condition as normal and then registers the immediate imbalance as Scurvy (which was the first semi-modern medical reference made about Vitamin C; That is the preferred treatment for Scurvy.) even though you did not actually have Scurvy in the first place.

 

If this is the same situation in parallel, then you could be exhibiting symptoms of everything (or anything) Sulbutiamine effectively remedies.

 

That is, Beri Beri, and/or Asthenia and/or Psycho-behavioural inhibition (and any plethora of psychological effects) and etcetera.

 

Our society has programmed us to see the "big, ugly scary devil" as addiction (hiding around the corner waiting to pounce upon us at it's very first opportunity) yet when you take the created (politically driven) stigma away you have something simple.

 

A system that is out of balance. Plain and simple.

 

Nothing else. And though all the symptoms (less the psychological ones, with the application of this simple revelation) are still there, they can be more easily addressed without the added 12 step meetings, support groups and/or shrinks that oft times simply are the equivalent of a hand holder(s).

 

So. Put the panic on hold. If it were me,(and for some weird  reason I wanted to stop something that has so many benefits) I would gradual reduce (and record, you absolutely must write it down, especially if panic is messing you up) your dosage from your highest current dosage in increments of 25mg a day. So that in just under 3 months you cease administration of what you feel is the problem, i.e. Sulbutiamine.

 

 

But I really don't think it's the Sulbutiamine that's the problem. See, when something is a good thing and effects positive productive developments in your life, that's all it is...a good thing. Remember, we're talking about Vitamin B-1 in a tuxedo, all dressed up. But still, a vitamin.

 

Think of it this way. Hypothetically, of course.

 

If someone came along and said " Hey, I am going to give you a dream job that puts $1,000,000 in your bank account every month with zero stress and no downside" and it was legit, real, legal and did not offend your personal ethics/morals, you'd probably take it. And all the benefits that would accompany  that kind of coin.

 

Now, a year or so down the road, with nothing but good developments and all the dreams and goals coming true, let's say you stopped and said " Oh crap, I've got to stop this, it might be an addiction" and in doing so the benefits started fading etc.

 

Would you blame it on the money/job and try to get yourself  "unaddicted"?

 

I wouldn't.

 

It's like if you need glasses because your vision on it's own is lacking, well, alot of folks go get glasses. Without knowing your medical history I can only guess, butI am assuming you started Sulbutiamine with a reason or goal for doing such. If you have a need and Sulbutiamine fills it, that's all it is.

 

 

 

 

But, hey it's just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit/Add:

 

Here's a file, it's the one I referenced earlier. I have a lot of different files on Sulbutiamine and it's positive effects. Unfortunately the good ones exceed the 2mg upload cap.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheFountain]

Get off this piss, and if/when you see a doctor about weaning off it explain to them that you do NOT want it replaced with anything else, this way you can re-set your bodies receptors and perhaps try a natural alternative later. 

[Philosopher]

Get off this piss, and if/when you see a doctor about weaning off it explain to them that you do NOT want it replaced with anything else, this way you can re-set your bodies receptors and perhaps try a natural alternative later. 

 

 

 

I think I have successfuly weaned off of it for now. I'm nearly over my illness too, I can feel it. I guess I should just throw it out, because it always gives me recurring problems when I stop. I just really loved sulbutiamines ability to make me more extraverted tenfold. 

[TheFountain]

 

Get off this piss, and if/when you see a doctor about weaning off it explain to them that you do NOT want it replaced with anything else, this way you can re-set your bodies receptors and perhaps try a natural alternative later. 

 

 

 

I think I have successfuly weaned off of it for now. I'm nearly over my illness too, I can feel it. I guess I should just throw it out, because it always gives me recurring problems when I stop. I just really loved sulbutiamines ability to make me more extraverted tenfold. 

 

Mow try L-Theanine and Holy Basil extract for anxiety. Alternate between the two. 

[Philosopher]

 

 

Get off this piss, and if/when you see a doctor about weaning off it explain to them that you do NOT want it replaced with anything else, this way you can re-set your bodies receptors and perhaps try a natural alternative later. 

 

 

 

I think I have successfuly weaned off of it for now. I'm nearly over my illness too, I can feel it. I guess I should just throw it out, because it always gives me recurring problems when I stop. I just really loved sulbutiamines ability to make me more extraverted tenfold. 

 

Mow try L-Theanine and Holy Basil extract for anxiety. Alternate between the two. 

 

I don't have anxiety.

 

There's a difference between reduced social anxiety, and reduced inhibitions. The makes you talk more freely, the other lets you say things you wouldn't normally say, and do things you wouldn't normally do: taking risks is easier. 

[Zbdecker]

Sorry this was a mispost.

 

-Zach

Edited by Zbdecker, 23 May 2014 - 11:43 PM.

[TheFountain]

 

 

 

Get off this piss, and if/when you see a doctor about weaning off it explain to them that you do NOT want it replaced with anything else, this way you can re-set your bodies receptors and perhaps try a natural alternative later. 

 

 

 

I think I have successfuly weaned off of it for now. I'm nearly over my illness too, I can feel it. I guess I should just throw it out, because it always gives me recurring problems when I stop. I just really loved sulbutiamines ability to make me more extraverted tenfold. 

 

Mow try L-Theanine and Holy Basil extract for anxiety. Alternate between the two. 

 

I don't have anxiety.

 

There's a difference between reduced social anxiety, and reduced inhibitions. The makes you talk more freely, the other lets you say things you wouldn't normally say, and do things you wouldn't normally do: taking risks is easier. 

 

 

 L-theanine is good to relax you in social settings at lower doses. 

 

Another thing to consider with general mood orientation is electrolyte balance. Take 400 mgs of magnesium citrate daily and eat some high potassium foods. 

[Gr888Scott]

 

But if sulbutiamine really is a problem, like mercury turned out to be, then I'm tossing the stuff right away!

 

 

 

 

Ya know something just occurred to me. A lot of these supplements come in èn masse from Asia and sometimes the quality is a bit lacking. I have heard sometimes in the chemical washing process residual "crap" remains and that can manifest in all kinds of rare but not so pleasant side effects. Not always, but sometimes. Maybe it's the batch/supplier

 

I was thinking about the rare occasional skin rashes/irritation that were referenced to as a rare side effect of Sulbutiamine. So there's that. Maybe try another source for Sulbutiamine ?

 

 

Remember, genuine Sulbutiamine is some of the nastiest tasting substance on the planet. Even the toughest palates are subject to the "bitter beer face". Check the taste and physical consistency of what you have. It usually has consistency of talcum powder and tastes ...........................well,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Philosopher]

Yea that's exactly how it is, plus I think I got it from smart powders

 

But if sulbutiamine really is a problem, like mercury turned out to be, then I'm tossing the stuff right away!

 

 

 

 

Ya know something just occurred to me. A lot of these supplements come in èn masse from Asia and sometimes the quality is a bit lacking. I have heard sometimes in the chemical washing process residual "crap" remains and that can manifest in all kinds of rare but not so pleasant side effects. Not always, but sometimes. Maybe it's the batch/supplier

 

I was thinking about the rare occasional skin rashes/irritation that were referenced to as a rare side effect of Sulbutiamine. So there's that. Maybe try another source for Sulbutiamine ?

 

 

Remember, genuine Sulbutiamine is some of the nastiest tasting substance on the planet. Even the toughest palates are subject to the "bitter beer face". Check the taste and physical consistency of what you have. It usually has consistency of talcum powder and tastes ...........................well,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Philosopher]

 

 

 

 

Get off this piss, and if/when you see a doctor about weaning off it explain to them that you do NOT want it replaced with anything else, this way you can re-set your bodies receptors and perhaps try a natural alternative later. 

 

 

 

I think I have successfuly weaned off of it for now. I'm nearly over my illness too, I can feel it. I guess I should just throw it out, because it always gives me recurring problems when I stop. I just really loved sulbutiamines ability to make me more extraverted tenfold. 

 

Mow try L-Theanine and Holy Basil extract for anxiety. Alternate between the two. 

 

I don't have anxiety.

 

There's a difference between reduced social anxiety, and reduced inhibitions. The makes you talk more freely, the other lets you say things you wouldn't normally say, and do things you wouldn't normally do: taking risks is easier. 

 

 

 L-theanine is good to relax you in social settings at lower doses. 

 

Another thing to consider with general mood orientation is electrolyte balance. Take 400 mgs of magnesium citrate daily and eat some high potassium foods. 

 

 

I already take L-theanine often, and although it does reduce my anxiety quite a bit, it still doesn't give me that "kick" feeling. When I take sulbutiamine, I don't think twice before talking to someone, and my personality is what it should be, and it's a beautiful feeling and experience, like I am very productive to society and humankind in general. That's partly the reason I always go back to it, because I always want to reach my full potential. I end up feeling, sometimes, that I am not reaching my full potential when I am without it. 

[Philosopher]

Vitamin C can cause immune dependency. Perhaps sulbutiamine can do the same? When immune dependency occurs, the body may have difficulty ddealing with even small infections that would usually go unnoticed. I've never looked into reversing immune dependency though and I'm not sure what the prognosis is. Keep us posted if you decide to do the research.

 

I'm thinking that tyrosine might help, because it helps the brain produce dopamine. I think the immune deficiency comes from a lack of dopamine in the brain, I cited a study earlier that showed dopamine creates t-cells somehow. I'm not sure. I just know I'm very sensitive to the immune deficiency effects, and I must STOP IMMEDIATELY. I just want reassurance, that this is the problem, that sulbutiamine is bad. TOO MANY people say it's fine, it's just a vitamin analog, it's healthy. I need someone to tell me it's not. 

[StevesPetRat]

Benfotiamine blocks the AA pathway:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3249497/
So it has potent anti-inflammatory effects. Maybe sulbutiamine does the same. Maybe there's a sudden release on that pathway and you get blasted with prostaglandins and stuff when you quit. If so, NSAIDs and other COX and LOX inhibitors would reduce symptoms.

[theAlchemist22]

Vitamin C can cause immune dependency. Perhaps sulbutiamine can do the same? When immune dependency occurs, the body may have difficulty ddealing with even small infections that would usually go unnoticed. I've never looked into reversing immune dependency though and I'm not sure what the prognosis is. Keep us posted if you decide to do the research.

 

 

 

Abstract


OBJECTIVE:

Dopamine exists in the immune system and has obvious immunomodulating action. However, receptor mechanism underlying the dopamine immunomodulation remains to be clarified. In the present study, we provide the evidence for existence of dopamine receptor subtypes in T lymphocytes and show the roles of the receptors and the receptor-coupled signaling in mediating the dopamine immunomodulation.
METHODS:

The purified T lymphocytes from the mesenteric lymph nodes of mice were detected for expressions of all five subtypes of dopamine receptor mRNAs by reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction. Lymphocyte proliferation and production of interferon-γ (IFN-γ) and interleukin-4 (IL-4) in response to concanavalin A (Con A) were measured by colorimetric methyl-thiazole-tetrazolium assay and cytometric bead array, respectively, after the cells were exposed to dopamine D1-like or D2-like receptor agonists and antagonists. Meanwhile, content of cAMP and phosphorylation of cAMP-response element-binding (CREB) in the lymphocytes were examined by 125I-cAMP radioimmunoassay and Western blot assay, respectively.
RESULTS:

T lymphocytes expressed all the five subtypes of dopamine receptor mRNAs, i.e., D1, D2, D3, D4 and D5 receptors. SKF38393, an agonist of dopamine D1-like receptors (D1 and D5 receptors) only reduced the IFN-γ production, but did not significantly affect the proliferative response, IL-4 production, cAMP content or CREB activation of the lymphocytes. The SKF38393-induced decrease in IFN-γ level was blocked by the D1-like receptor antagonist SCH23390. Quinpirole, an agonist of dopamine D2-like receptors (D2, D3 and D4 receptors) attenuated the lymphocyte proliferation to Con A, and decreased the IFN-γ but increased the IL-4 production. Meanwhile, the quinpirole diminished the cAMP content and the phosphorylated CREB level in the lymphocytes. All the quinpirole-induced changes were reversed by dopamine D2-like receptor antagonist haloperidol.
CONCLUSIONS:

Five dopamine receptor subtypes of the two families, D1-like and D2-like receptors, exist on T lymphocytes of mice. Of the two families, D2-like receptors are more important in mediating modulation of T cell function than D1-like receptors. D2-like receptors are involved in suppression of T helper 1 (Th1) cell function and enhancement of Th2 cell function through negative link to cAMP-CREB pathway.
 

There definitely is an underlying virus/disease. I currently have a painful lump in my neck, and almost always when I'm having problems my lymph nodes explode.


I'm starting to think that abrupt cessation of sulbutiamine abruptly kills off the all the D1 receptors the body was normally dependent on to stay alive and kill viruses.


It does seem similar to megadosing vitamin c for a while, then getting unbearably ill once you stop.

 

 

 

 

Seriously Philosopher, you need to urgently see a doctor. Your dopamine receptors have likely been unregulated and likely suffering from severe withdrawal effects when you stop. Someone needs to look at ALL of the supplements/meds you are taking to try and untangle interactions. The biggest danger is not the withdrawal, but the risks of self-harm and suicidal thoughts that may come in withdrawal when the ahedonia kicks in. Make an appointment with your doctor and tell them what's going on along with a frank disclosure of what you are taking. They may refer you to a psychiatrist or treat directly. You may require bridging medication, social support, or even hospitalization. Let me know how you go, if you want to chat PM me.

There's no psychiatric problem, trust me on that one. It's an immune system problem that I need to address.

 

Okay let me address the issues here one at a time so bare with me and read the entire post.

First off, YOLF is very spot on believe it or not.

 

let me tell you how I can vouch for them in that respect.. i too have extensively supplemented with sulbutiamine, though of course, obviously not as long of a time you have. That being said Philosopher, your not entirely taking what the above contributors have said in mind while emotionally sober. They are in fact pretty d**n spot on.

 

Sulbutiamine does cause a huge stimulant effect in some people and though it is still not a substance that is by any means addictive or actually a psychostimulant, I understand why you came here seeking help on this topic. I am not questioning your ability to adequately access your current state of mind I'm merely trying to say that these issues you've seen with Sulb is nothing more than a somewhat slight decrease of efficiency in the immune system due to dopamine plasma levels as well as a very minor psychological addiction.

 

With all that in mind, I hope you can understand where I'm coming from with this.

 

And to answer your issue of needing reassurance on whether or not Sulb is as bad as you may think... well its not. Yes I can see what issues it has caused for you. Regardless of that fact, the sole reason you have encountered these issues is that sulbutiamine causes a dramatic spike in D1 receptor upregulation. That dramatic spike is what has caused you the short-lived immunodeficiency. Not sulb itself and/or the psychological addiction it had caused. (I use the term psych addiction only because i have no better terms in mind to call it.) The dopamine receptor upregulation is precisely the sole reason behind the immunodeficiency, and the very very slight psychological addiction (the reason why you immediately assumed what everyone else online had said about the provitamin analogue was false; I'm not calling it an addiction because I'm implying that I feel you were actually addicted, because that is not the case at all.) is what made you question everyone's intelligence on the matter, who had said it was not addictive. Because in reality it is not, at least it does not cause a physical dependence (aka addiction); it merely can, of course as you have most likely noticed, cause a psychological addiction because it's effects are very potent and almost immediate in many of the users.

 

With all that in mind, sulbutiamine is merely an analogue of the various forms thiamine molecule we typically find in everyday foods. If the everyday versions of the thiamine molecule were able to reach the brain, in concentrations as high as sulbutiamine yields, then we would not have seen this issue you've had come up. Why? well because the dosage of everyday thiamine forms would be far lower if all thiamine preparations were easily absorbed into the bloodstream and therefore easily able to cross the BBB. However, that is not the case.

 

Thiamine mononitrate and hydrochloride, in B vitamin preparations and food, is absorbed far less than sulbutiamine. Sulbutiamine, when administered, isn't excreted the same way the everyday preparations of thiamine are. The other forms are excreted because not all of the thiamine in the different preparations can be extracted by enzymes before the preparation's leftovers leave the stomach and reach excretion organ. I believe it is the kidneys in this case, but I am not 100% sure.

 

Everything that your use of sulbutiamine has caused is entirely understood and completely [scientifically] explainable. Hope that long drawn out response helps rectify some of your assumptions about this thiamine preparation.

 

and btw, sulbutiamine is not really an analogue of thiamine technically. it's just another form of thiamine and it just happen to be two thiamine molecules bonded together rather than a single with a nitrate or hydrocholride polyatomic ion binded to it. It's a shame everyone who knows about it is less knowledgeable about what the word 'analogue' typically entails.

Edited by Depth-NeuroScience_AF36, 05 April 2015 - 01:56 AM.