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My baffling question why Cryonics may not work

cryonics question consciousness

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#61 ceridwen

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:49 PM

If we had a spirit we wouldn't need cryonics. I believe that once the cryonics patient's stem cells are regrown that their consciousness would be able to  return. It would have to be the patient's own stem cells though



#62 ADVANCESSSS

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 05:04 PM

So anyhow my statements are waiting rebuttals...to above-why did you just ignore the statements I made that are waiting disproving OR not make a rebuttal? Anyhow waiting disproving everyone~


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#63 Clacksberg

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 06:06 PM

Double Laugh out Loud!!


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#64 ADVANCESSSS

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 04:47 PM

Read all, putting best statements in this, try and disprove if can or agree, only write serious replies.

 

 

 

I mean if nothing is left behind and no god's spirit or orb(same thing but no god) or no universe kept point of consciousness, then YOU are a formed consciousness, everybody is not everybody because each is conscious of a different thing, yet we are all a basis consciousness that's conscious and each a separate one, and all can have or not the same add-ons of thoughts, memories, body plus it's sensory inputs...and we are just separate basis consciousnesses, the moment recreation has been answered in my references also, and one thing to add would be well how'd you get in the middle of your room, and now a cm more, and more, it's obvious how, and you are you and effectively stay conscious, including what I said in my referred posts...which I'm putting below so just read this whole post.

 

 

 

Like another good statement to add to my last reply is this one - Since we can make a different human or a exact particle duplicate human on a duplicate planet while your still conscious and they are separately conscious and one could die and not conscious as ex. Then after your not conscious when dead, then making a different, or same - as in where last left off - duplicate of particles and area, will be another separate conscious where the conscious is formed in the brain.

 

 

 

You could create a copy as good as can right now on another duplicate planet, it will always be separate from yourself, ex. if one dies then is not conscious but other one is,  and you won't continue in other body no because also both duplicates can change to different and back and different by a different thing in front of it plus it's not necessary but can also slowly change body and thoughts at the moment and memories from high technology, which we do right now in growth of ourself. So creating one after your dead will be another consciousness created that's conscious but your not, I prove nothing matters except the basis consciousness, and so just how creating new ones by the day are separate more of these basis consciousnesses, then when your consciousness is not here any more and nothing left, then that's why another basis consciousness will be made that's new and separate.

 

 

 

To follow up here is were I got to, and there is hope for cryonics but only assuming there is universe points of a consciousness that are universally kept, or orb-spirits, or god's spirits.

 
Just how for ex. our bodies slowly change, including various neuron networks, and thoughts and memories can change, which happens and we are the same seperate consciousness, then every human can be all in the exact same particle by particle body and same memories too obviously, and they can be placed on earth and all start doing something different, or can be each be placed on a duplicate planet and doing and thinking the same things and have the same memories and everyone stays identical, unless a consciousness can really decide stuff and all of them differ anyhow, anyhow this shows that *since we can all be doing the same thing and be the same body and only multiple consciousnesses is the matter and *since we can all differentiate at any moment from any little thing being different in front of us, means that we are indeed *only* multiple seperate consciousnesses, and if one dies this moment then at the moment is not conscious, and just how if there was 1 septillion human consciousnesses and even more are made, they are new seperate consciousnesses, so in the future if no consciousnesses are left and all gone and if another consciousness dependless of the body being new or exactly same was made it would be the same process of creating and adding more new seperate consciousnesses like how right now babies are being born and more consciousnesses are adding up, also you can't say well with the 7 billion identical copies, and no one left, that creating one by one will bring each consciousness back so all 7 billion are back conscious - because as I just said the creating and adding of more new consciousnesses is what happens, dependless of the body being new or same, new consciousnesses can have bodies, thoughts and memories identical and a duplicate planet and are both seperate consciousnesses being 2 and if none left and started creating the same people would only be like the 2cd one made being a new seperate consciousness, they are only (seperate) (consciousnesses) and only new ones are created, so to stay conscious you have to stay conscious. Honestly moment to moment recreating of the consciousness doesn't do anything to this conclusion, and can't be true or at least at all disrupting becasue there is so many squished together rapid moments your aware that we know it's real and going and we are our the single effectively staying consciousness, like how I can look around my keyboard right now-rapid moments that ocur all the time, paint a picture for 6 hours or days, anything, and we are doing these things and it is real, we know where we came from ect.~ And we are the same consciousness, effectively we are at least for sure, and seperate consciousnesses for sure at that, but a consciousness might be staying formed like a overhanging kitchen table, from physics.
 
A super simple way to say my thinking from above on that one thing is:
If a exact copy of you is made on a duplicate planet with same construction of particles and their locations ect. and memories and thoughts OR another different human right beside you, it is just another new seperate consciousness, if one dies it's not conscious, and so in future if both are dead and either a human or exact copy of you is made it will be another new seperate consciousness like how the duplicate was a new one, and therfore your not conscious, we know you won't continue on in the clone on a duplicater planet so exact because wheather same or different bodies each of us is just a seperate consciousness, and soo exact copies are not special because we can switch from so exact to different back and forth and are just seperate consciousnesses, so if one dies it is not conscious no more, so to stay conscious you have to stay conscious. Unless universe points, or orbs, or god's spirits. Basically if nothing is left behind... the ending and creating of consciousnesses is what happens when one is created being indeed obviosly effectively constant even in sleep or effectively stoped and gone for a just a moment it takes, that's all that happens if nothing kept behind that's unknown~
 
Ok you know how creating another duplicate you on a duplicate planet with every atom and thoughts and memories being exact is another seperate consciousness from yourself...
 
And going with saying there's only particles and atoms and consciousness is shut off also...
 
Then if two atoms make up person (A) with no consciousness turned on here but was earlier, and again two more same atoms come together and make person (B) another seperate consciousness once turned on obviously, which also has no consciousness right now, then since right now there is just two atoms together in both of them which is a sodium and calcium for both persons, then if you take apart and put together one of the persons two atoms, doing so makes no change to when they were together, and doing so then makes a new seperate consciousness ©....With understanding that if (A) turned on and off, earlier, then taking the two atoms apart and together would make © which is a new seperate consciousness, and also leaving the two atoms together would do the same thing as because taking apart and put together doesn't change anything to the two atoms being together...so the ending and creating of consciousnesses is what happens if no universal points, or orbs/spirits are left.
 
Like if there is only particles and atoms, and seeing that since two exact(s) are or different(s) are made that both are only seperate consciousnesses, then if both are dead and the same one is made it will be (creating), like the duplicate being alive on a duplicate planet while the first was also, and so this new 3rd one will be now by itself now, like the duplicate, a new seperete consciousness, only creating and ending happens, and yes we know we effectively stay conscious as ourselves, so to stay conscious you must stay conscious, unless universe points, orbs, or god's spirits.  
 
Lastly here's a story, and has everybody being the same body exactly you know with the thoughts and memories ect. because we can have duplicates --- One person is conscious with their consciousness and is the first consciousness here, and a second one is made and on now in the brain of another person, and a third consciousness too, it's simple, many can be created and each seperately conscious, and if one consciousness disapears and the particle body could very well be invisible here, then obviously the consciousness is gone and if you create another one in the bodies brain of atoms/particles it is another new one now.....So we have to stay conscious then. But universe points of consciousnesses-even duplicate points, or orbs, or spirits, might exist.

Edited by ADVANCE, 27 June 2014 - 04:54 PM.


#65 YOLF

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 07:48 PM

Grammar still needs work. I can't understand it.



#66 ADVANCESSSS

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 08:16 PM

.......Ok Cryonicsculture...just um just let someone else try reading it then you can skip....lol


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#67 ceridwen

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 04:09 AM

Are you foreign advance? Anyway that aside no part of your argument makes sense



#68 ADVANCESSSS

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 09:38 AM

It all makes sense.



#69 serp777

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 04:26 AM

No I have said that I hope it works and have only said things now awaiting discussion that would mean it wouldn't work, but it would if we have as I said a spirit or orb or universe point so there is some hope, but just going on if nothing is left and just particles and their physics then - is what I'v said on..k hope to hear back your rebuttals as of yet waiting...
 
Edit: the posts to rebuttal to are above your'll see I listed them just above.

You've made A lot of assumptions about consciousness. You need to provide some proof that it is more than just a physical entity. If it is a purely physical entity then cryonics will work just like anesthesia, but for a longer duration

Also your grammar is really really bad as others have claimed. I can't make heads or tails of 90% of what you're attempting to say

Edited by serp777, 29 June 2014 - 04:27 AM.


#70 ADVANCESSSS

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 06:01 AM

Omg, ifff there's nooooo spirit or orb or universe point and just particles, then with just particles we firstly know for sure we are conscious and it is made up somehow , so in that possibility I said everywhere above beside the others, it means we arn't more then a physical entity and just particles and consciousnesses can just actually be made somehow...Allll that big final writing above tallllkkss and explains about how if just particles then it will onlyy be a new con created...No rebuttals disproving anything from the mass writing above has been said, waiting still~ Like one of you's gotta have a real disproving rebuttal to something and so what ? or else then would agree...Where'd you real smart ones with this go we need someone(s) lol.


Edited by ADVANCE, 29 June 2014 - 06:02 AM.

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#71 addx

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 10:18 AM

Omg, ifff there's nooooo spirit or orb or universe point and just particles, then with just particles we firstly know for sure we are conscious and it is made up somehow , so in that possibility I said everywhere above beside the others, it means we arn't more then a physical entity and just particles and consciousnesses can just actually be made somehow...Allll that big final writing above tallllkkss and explains about how if just particles then it will onlyy be a new con created...No rebuttals disproving anything from the mass writing above has been said, waiting still~ Like one of you's gotta have a real disproving rebuttal to something and so what ? or else then would agree...Where'd you real smart ones with this go we need someone(s) lol.


You need an antipshycotic. Seriously
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#72 serp777

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 08:57 PM

Omg, ifff there's nooooo spirit or orb or universe point and just particles, then with just particles we firstly know for sure we are conscious and it is made up somehow , so in that possibility I said everywhere above beside the others, it means we arn't more then a physical entity and just particles and consciousnesses can just actually be made somehow...Allll that big final writing above tallllkkss and explains about how if just particles then it will onlyy be a new con created...No rebuttals disproving anything from the mass writing above has been said, waiting still~ Like one of you's gotta have a real disproving rebuttal to something and so what ? or else then would agree...Where'd you real smart ones with this go we need someone(s) lol.

 

It certainly would take a literary genius to try and interpret what you're trying to say. 

 

What is this orb, spirit, and universal point mumbo jumbo you're talking about? 



#73 ADVANCESSSS

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 12:56 AM

Post #64 is the one btw to all.

 

Serpent777...spirits is you's know~ and god and devil and angels and demons, are invisible after leave body and are visible to other spiritualnesses or no and only go in bodies.

 

Orbs are same thing but no god or anything and just all by our selves................

 

universe points is the particle belief along with consciousnesses are a biological reality that can be made BBut that a consciousnesses actual related data is kept idk somewhere no given point in the universe and when the same consciousness is made with same thoughts, memories and maybe particle locations will start back where left from the kept universe point of this, consciousness.

 

Lastly particle belief only along with consciousnesses are can be made as we know we are, conscious, as explained in my post #64 if this is the case onlllyyy new consciousnesses are always made no matter what they are, to stay conscious you have to stay conscious.

 

Anybody thinking they have a rebuttal first read #64 because I did go through everything so, if a knowledgeable person reads it I'm sure they will agree we have to stay conscious if the last way is...and that other ways above may be and so cryonics & con. end could still work assuming something left behind exists....if have a rebuttal then waiting...(read and rebuttal against something within my #64 post)


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#74 serp777

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 01:13 AM

Post #64 is the one btw to all.

 

Serpent777...spirits is you's know~ and god and devil and angels and demons, are invisible after leave body and are visible to other spiritualnesses or no and only go in bodies.

 

Orbs are same thing but no god or anything and just all by our selves................

 

universe points is the particle belief along with consciousnesses are a biological reality that can be made BBut that a consciousnesses actual related data is kept idk somewhere no given point in the universe and when the same consciousness is made with same thoughts, memories and maybe particle locations will start back where left from the kept universe point of this, consciousness.

 

Lastly particle belief only along with consciousnesses are can be made as we know we are, conscious, as explained in my post #64 if this is the case onlllyyy new consciousnesses are always made no matter what they are, to stay conscious you have to stay conscious.

 

Anybody thinking they have a rebuttal first read #64 because I did go through everything so, if a knowledgeable person reads it I'm sure they will agree we have to stay conscious if the last way is...and that other ways above may be and so cryonics & con. end could still work assuming something left behind exists....if have a rebuttal then waiting...(read and rebuttal against something within my #64 post)

" are invisible after leave body and are visible to other spiritualnesses or no and only go in bodies."

 

Invisible in what respect? Assuming they do exist, there's no reason why they wouldn't give off black body radiation, since those spirits would be composed of energy. That would make them visible to specific instruments. 

 

"Orbs are same thing but no god or anything and just all by our selves"

 

That is extremely unscientific. How would consciousness remain once the brain had died? What medium would contain the information that composes consciousness? What kind of particles would construct this vague entity? It's not reasonable that electrical impulses in the brain would somehow lead to these orb things. 

"spirits is you's know~ and god and devil and angels and demons"

Like from Islam, or from Christianity, or from scientology, etc? This is very vague and is not scientific. 
 

 

Also again, if you were created 5 seconds ago with all the memories of your previous life, you would think your consciousness existed during those memories, even though it really didnt. So in theory, it's very possible that consciousness is non linear: a sequence of new, recursive consciousnesses that are all unique, but have identical memories to the previous consciousnesses that existed previously. All the different consciousnesses would believe that they were the same consciousness. This kind of logic also resolves any philosophical problems that consciousness creates and is the most reasonable way consciousness works. Analogously, it would be like a processor cycle-- each cycle would have a different state, unless the state was preserved in something like cryonics and then activated later. In fact, cryonics is probably one of the only ways to preserve a specific consciousness.   



#75 ADVANCESSSS

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 06:21 AM

of the 4 possibilities the top two that are orb or spirit are most likely unknown particles probably, or a whole thing and could call it a consciousness particle~

 

No because "you" (whoever reading this including I) knows your "still" here, you wouldn't if new ones were being created, you yourself would then be not conscious and ended, but noohwo as we can tell we are effectively still staying conscious, plus my #64 post goes through everything else on this and everything else. 


Edited by ADVANCE, 30 June 2014 - 06:24 AM.


#76 ceridwen

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 10:32 PM

Writing as someone who knows that I will lose consciousness before I die. I am hoping that some lab in the future might grow my stem cells an regrow most of my brain with them. Hopefully the morphogenetic field will regrow the same electrical pattern that I had when I was well and regrow my consciousness. I don't see that as impossible.



#77 serp777

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 04:55 AM

of the 4 possibilities the top two that are orb or spirit are most likely unknown particles probably, or a whole thing and could call it a consciousness particle~
 
No because "you" (whoever reading this including I) knows your "still" here, you wouldn't if new ones were being created, you yourself would then be not conscious and ended, but noohwo as we can tell we are effectively still staying conscious, plus my #64 post goes through everything else on this and everything else. 

Again, what do you have to say about my example? If you were created 5 seconds ago with all your previous memories, how would you know that you weren't the consciousness that existed during those memories? There is no way you would be able to tell one wau or the other, so your knowing is absolutely meaningless

Edited by serp777, 02 July 2014 - 04:56 AM.


#78 ADVANCESSSS

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 11:51 AM

No there is meaningfulness knowing, lol ok anyhow so you read through post #64 right? But admit it, we arrrre definitely staying effectively conscious, or else there wouldn't be any of us, one in a long tube with water walls in space, one on a planets beach, one is marble house, we are separately staying conscious of our own different surrounding signals incoming to the conscieeous...

 

You Know it!

 

With everything said so far and post #64 all should agree~ That IF something is not left behind such as a spirit or orb or universe point of consciousness or simply a horrible excuse of cause it will just come back which my sayings overrule it anyhow, <these are "left behind" for to happen though, IF nothing left, as my writings explain perfectly, creating of a consciousness will always happen when one is created and no matter if identical particles in the radius size of a galaxy-self and planet~ As two of my statement explains it could be made on a duplicate planet and duplicate particles and is separate if one dies oh oh ones not conscious, and that a consciousness can slowly change any particles and thoughts and memories and is just a basis consciousness.


Edited by ADVANCE, 02 July 2014 - 11:53 AM.

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#79 ADVANCESSSS

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:35 PM

Also you could only argument every 0.00000000001 of a second moment recreation of you-consciousness and the memories you know and believe, because what destroys the theory of slept and awoke and recreated is that then your the same you and are for 12 or more hours, even if 8 seconds, in that time you can stay you and create memories ect, so saying anything but the littlest mila micro second is false then as we know we each seperately stay "you" and conscious for this 4 or 8 or 12-however long staying up seconds/hours, and if that's so then we do stayyy conscious and all is real for forever until dead, also if a new one created and we don't effectively stay conscious and are not conscious then you wouldn't, know it, ~ Allll said above explains why what I else said is right and why and why the 000.1 moment new statement is wrong including this reply, and again if not said already, it's obvious we stay effectively conscious and a new one isn't created and you gone nope and the 000.1 doesn't even affect it if it is happening.



#80 ADVANCESSSS

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:49 AM

Read #64 #75 & #79.

 

Also above in post 79 I meant, if nothing is left behind, then no matter the particle formation, and the thoughts and memories and body sensory signals getting sent to conscious, it will always be a new created consciousness, you won't be conscious anymore, you can make one on a duplicate pplanet while alive and see it created a new consciousness that's separate so it proves it...



#81 ADVANCESSSS

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:47 AM

Actually above statement is not 79 lol it's something different.



#82 serp777

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 01:43 AM

No there is meaningfulness knowing, lol ok anyhow so you read through post #64 right? But admit it, we arrrre definitely staying effectively conscious, or else there wouldn't be any of us, one in a long tube with water walls in space, one on a planets beach, one is marble house, we are separately staying conscious of our own different surrounding signals incoming to the conscieeous...

 

You Know it!

 

With everything said so far and post #64 all should agree~ That IF something is not left behind such as a spirit or orb or universe point of consciousness or simply a horrible excuse of cause it will just come back which my sayings overrule it anyhow, <these are "left behind" for to happen though, IF nothing left, as my writings explain perfectly, creating of a consciousness will always happen when one is created and no matter if identical particles in the radius size of a galaxy-self and planet~ As two of my statement explains it could be made on a duplicate planet and duplicate particles and is separate if one dies oh oh ones not conscious, and that a consciousness can slowly change any particles and thoughts and memories and is just a basis consciousness.

I have read through post 64 and post 79.

 

I'm still waiting for an explanation of: "Again, what do you have to say about my example? If you were created 5 seconds ago with all your previous memories, how would you know that you weren't the consciousness that existed during those memories? There is no way you would be able to tell one way or the other"

 

"But admit it, we arrrre definitely staying effectively conscious, or else there wouldn't be any of us,"

what? Why do I need to admit it? How do you know that? It's not like people stop existing because they go unconscious.

 

"As two of my statement explains it could be made on a duplicate planet and duplicate particles and is separate if one dies oh oh ones not conscious"

Identical quantum states for all of these particles? I see no reason why those consciousnesses should be different. They're not aware of each other's thoughts but they're the same consciousness at the instant they're created. After that, due to probability, those consciousnesses become different, which supports my assertion that the human existence is a linear progression of different and unique consciousnesses that only exist for an instant. 

 

In programming, an object that has identical properties and variables compared to another object is the same object but just a different instance.  WHy should consciousness be different or special? An apple with the exact same quantum state as another apple is the same apple 



#83 Brain_Ischemia

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 06:36 PM

Oddly enough, this is a good point:

 

"If you were created 5 seconds ago with all your previous memories, how would you know that you weren't the consciousness that existed during those memories? There is no way you would be able

to tell one way or the other"

 

The answer is that there's no meaningful distinction between what you describe (in this sentence, at least) and the way the system (the universe) actually works.

If I take your thought experiment to imply what I think it implies, then it changes nothing at all, hence it's not meaningful in the way you apparently think it is.

 

Let me put it this way:

Imagine that time ran backwards.

Do you imagine the phenomena of your familiar experience running in reverse like a video being played backwards? If so, that's wrong; that might be the concept you intended to communicate, but as far as the universe is concerned, it's a meaningless idea.

If the universe were a film reel or a video, then as far as the images are concerned, nothing is different if it's run backwards or forwards; does a character on a page of a book know if you're flipping through the pages from front to back or vice-versa? The universe might as well be running backwards right "now" (see how that's a nonsensical sentence? that's because it's conceptually incoherent in the first place); you can only be conscious of one direction of time because the existence of your brain (and consciousness) is the result of evolutionary processes that are entropically shaped and restricted (in one direction or the other).

 

All you ever really are is a conscious awareness inhabiting a single frame in the reel (called "now") attached to a particular spatiotemporal location that offers you a perspective restricted to the memories embedded in your brain. I would go further and say that the self (as we define it) is therefore an illusion, but that's beyond the scope of this thread... Google "self illusion" or "illusion of self" if you're interested.

 

BTW:
Can't make much sense of anything else you're saying....but that was a very good point that gets at the heart of the distinction between reality and perception.

 


Edited by caliban, 17 April 2018 - 02:17 PM.
c


#84 Antonio2014

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 09:20 PM

There is a book on this issue (and others) by physicist Roger Penrose, "The Emperor's New Mind." It's very interesting, nevertheless I mostly disagree with Penrose's theory.







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