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TAGsync: Operation and Discussion

tagsync theta alpha gamma synchrony training neurofeedback operation discussion

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#571 zamzal

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 01:24 PM

 

Does anyone here use BxShadow? I really like the idea of being able to do other things while doing NFB, to be more productive with my time. But i’m not sure how effective it is. Anyone with knowledge or experience in this regard?

 

are you talking about doing active things or just more like watching a video? i think for the latter, BxShadow is great even when thoroughly overpriced.
about training at task: i had that idea a million times but i have no idea what will happen because i couldn't find anyone who already did that for a longer time.

 

i think its very powerful to train at eyes open rest in order to train the baseline to which your brain will return in idle so to say. thats why i like to not even put concrete video input in. i've gotten VERY efficient with my training just using sound and really not blocking the process as much as possible ("give yourself to the process"). however this ca nnot be the most efficient way yet, so feel free to experiment.

 

if you find a working copy of bxshadow, let me know :)

 

I'm talking both about doing passive things such as watching videos as well as active things such as working or doing other tasks in front of the computer. According to the product description on the BT website it should be possible to do pretty much anything on a computer while doing NFB with BxShadow. I definitely think it could be worth losing a little effect or having to train a little  bit longer, and be able to get other stuff done at the same time. 



#572 Speculosity

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Posted 12 March 2016 - 04:20 AM

 

 

Does anyone here use BxShadow? I really like the idea of being able to do other things while doing NFB, to be more productive with my time. But i’m not sure how effective it is. Anyone with knowledge or experience in this regard?

 

are you talking about doing active things or just more like watching a video? i think for the latter, BxShadow is great even when thoroughly overpriced.
about training at task: i had that idea a million times but i have no idea what will happen because i couldn't find anyone who already did that for a longer time.

 

i think its very powerful to train at eyes open rest in order to train the baseline to which your brain will return in idle so to say. thats why i like to not even put concrete video input in. i've gotten VERY efficient with my training just using sound and really not blocking the process as much as possible ("give yourself to the process"). however this ca nnot be the most efficient way yet, so feel free to experiment.

 

if you find a working copy of bxshadow, let me know :)

 

I'm talking both about doing passive things such as watching videos as well as active things such as working or doing other tasks in front of the computer. According to the product description on the BT website it should be possible to do pretty much anything on a computer while doing NFB with BxShadow. I definitely think it could be worth losing a little effect or having to train a little  bit longer, and be able to get other stuff done at the same time. 

 

I use bxshadow when doing eyes open training. I think it's extremely neat and fantastic. But only if you're watching a video, not when doing other things that will require you to move your eyes or body.



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#573 Slipstream

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:59 PM

TAG-Sync newbie in the house!

AMAZING thread guys.  Thanks OM for the instructions, and thanks to all for the valuable contributions.

I've run three sessions so far with a Neurobit Optima2. Amp seems great, and signal looks excellent (in contrast to an old PN Pendant - problematic).

I've made a promising start with TAG - definitely "feels" like it's guiding my brain somewhere. I'm excited to progress.

 

I have some questions.  Would be great if anyone more experienced could answer:

 

Bandpass Filters:

The instructions on page 1 say:

-"Set BPF1 to 9Hz - 11Hz (Alpha) and BPF2 to 4-7Hz (Theta)"

 

However, in my design, BF1 is set at Theta 3-6hz, and BF2 is set at Alpha 8-12Hz.   So, the instructions imply we should swap Alpha with Theta.

 

Qs:

 

1)Is there a reason for swapping the Alpha and Theta BPFs?  Or is this an oversight in the instructions?

2)Why do we change the  A & T frequencies slightly from Dailey's defaults? (i.e. 3-6 to 4-7Hz, and 8-12 to9-11Hz)

3)Also, any reason why we use Cz for ground? Could an ear/mastoid also work? (I know NeurOptimal, for example, used ears for reference and ground).

 

Hope to hear from anyone who can clarify.

 

Really excited about moving forward with TAG sync, and will be sure to share my progress!

 

 

 

 


Edited by Slipstream, 17 March 2016 - 04:12 PM.


#574 thebrainstore

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:28 PM

Hi,

 

1. It makes no difference which way round as we are measuring the incidence of them occurring together.

 

2. Both alpha and Theta mean frequency can benefit from being a little higher. Alpha at 8hz is practically Theta, and low theta is verging on Delta so it makes sense to encourage Alpha centred at 10Hz and Theta at 5.5Hz more than Alpha at 9Hz and Theta at 4.5Hz.

 

3. Ears/mastoid are used either side in a linked reference montage creating a virtual reference in the centre of the head. Cz is a good site for ground as it is equidistant between the active sites.


Edited by spektrolyte, 17 March 2016 - 04:29 PM.


#575 foreseason

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 04:16 PM

So I'm both fascinated and completely overwhelmed by this thread. I've been doing neurofeedback with a therapist on a neuroptimal system for about a year. Problem is I can only do it about once or twice a week.

I'm very interested in getting my own system at home but don't want to shell out 5k for a neuroptimal setup. Also, although very user friendly, the neuroptimal system gives you zero control over the type of training you do correct?

Where can a newbie like me go to get started on this journey? It's obvious that this stuff gets pretty complicated, but i feel I'm intelligent and motivated enough to learn.

I'm sorry if this has been asked before. I read the first 10 pages of this thread but my brain was about ready to explode.

#576 VastEmptiness

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 05:09 PM

Personally I wouldn't opt for a setup that doesn't tell me what it is doing to my brain and not leave room for personalization, ever. My personal recommendation in terms of cost efficiency and customizability continues to be the Q-wiz and the TLC7 + HEG whole brain plan: http://www.longecity...e-5#entry757285

If you're on Europe, the Neurobit Optima 4 is a good alternative.

 

 

So I'm both fascinated and completely overwhelmed by this thread. I've been doing neurofeedback with a therapist on a neuroptimal system for about a year. Problem is I can only do it about once or twice a week.

I'm very interested in getting my own system at home but don't want to shell out 5k for a neuroptimal setup. Also, although very user friendly, the neuroptimal system gives you zero control over the type of training you do correct?

Where can a newbie like me go to get started on this journey? It's obvious that this stuff gets pretty complicated, but i feel I'm intelligent and motivated enough to learn.

I'm sorry if this has been asked before. I read the first 10 pages of this thread but my brain was about ready to explode.

 



#577 Strelok

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 11:16 PM

I am trying to get started with a Q-Wix setup.  I got everything installed on my computer, but haven't attached any electrodes to my scalp yet (partly because I'm not sure how or where, yet).

 

What is the best way to attach the electrodes?  Do you all use adhesive electrode pads?  Is there a cheaper way like using tape?



#578 thebrainstore

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 11:23 PM

What kind of electrodes do you have?

 



#579 Strelok

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 11:46 PM

What kind of electrodes do you have?

Here is a pic: 

Attached File  IMG_20160320_1742211.jpg   88.76KB   5 downloads



#580 thebrainstore

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 11:49 PM

You need to use Ten20 paste in that case.


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#581 Strelok

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Posted 21 March 2016 - 02:37 AM

You need to use Ten20 paste in that case.

 

Ok, thanks, I got some of that.  So do I just goop a little bit of the paste onto the electrode, and then stick it onto my scalp (or ear)?  Or should I use surgical tape too (as mentioned on the Ten20 container)?  I know these are extremely elementary questions, but I haven't come across anything that expressly states this step by step. 


Edited by Strelok, 21 March 2016 - 02:38 AM.


#582 Crowstream

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Posted 21 March 2016 - 07:31 AM

Surgical tape is not needed I think, just make sure you part your hair enough to get to the scalp. You will see later if you get a good signal or not and then you can adjust it.

 

Where you put them depends on the protocol, usually protocols will use the 10-20 electrode system: http://www.diytdcs.c...e-Distances.jpg

 

What I will usually do is to use a measuring band. If I want to know where to put the midline electrodes (Fz, Cz, Pz, Oz) then I will measure from Nz to Iz (these are bumps on your head that you can learn to find, write that number down and then I know from Nz to Fz is 30% of that length, Pz is 70%. Other sites are a bit more complicated, you might need to measure circumference or from T3 to T4. I have the measurements all written down so it is quite easy to find a site for me now but can be a bit annoying to learn.

 

You will also need to learn to read 10-20 protocol notation, like a protocol will use for example Fz-Pz, this means you put the active 1+ electrode on Fz and the passive 1- on one of your earlobes, 2+ on Pz and 2- on the other earlobe, and then you also need to put the ground somewhere (maybe Cz).

 

This is also different if you are using a bipolar protocol, if it says bipolar T3 for example its 1+ on T3 and 1- on T4 (active site for reference electrode as well which is bipolar training).

 

Hope that helps  :).


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#583 VastEmptiness

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Posted 21 March 2016 - 07:51 AM

I am trying to get started with a Q-Wix setup.  I got everything installed on my computer, but haven't attached any electrodes to my scalp yet (partly because I'm not sure how or where, yet).

 

What is the best way to attach the electrodes?  Do you all use adhesive electrode pads?  Is there a cheaper way like using tape?

preparation gel for the skin (its like a peeling) and the ten20 paste onto the electrode (or similar brand). for placement see here: https://sleeptechstu...rode-placement/

what system did you purchase? what protocols will you be training? how do you choose training options? i'm always a bit worried seeing new people overwhelmed by setting up, because you really dont wanna make any major mistakes when training and i'm seeing that over and over. it can be very valuable to have somebody help you get going. if you purchased the brain-trainer system for example that'll be included.


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#584 Strelok

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Posted 21 March 2016 - 03:21 PM

 

I am trying to get started with a Q-Wix setup.  I got everything installed on my computer, but haven't attached any electrodes to my scalp yet (partly because I'm not sure how or where, yet).

 

What is the best way to attach the electrodes?  Do you all use adhesive electrode pads?  Is there a cheaper way like using tape?

preparation gel for the skin (its like a peeling) and the ten20 paste onto the electrode (or similar brand). for placement see here: https://sleeptechstu...rode-placement/

what system did you purchase? what protocols will you be training? how do you choose training options? i'm always a bit worried seeing new people overwhelmed by setting up, because you really dont wanna make any major mistakes when training and i'm seeing that over and over. it can be very valuable to have somebody help you get going. if you purchased the brain-trainer system for example that'll be included.

 

 

I got a used Q-Wiz w/ Bioexplorer and TAGSync protocols.  I'd like to start with SMR or ILF as they seem to be most specific to what I'm trying to address.  Eventually I want to move on to TAGSync. I'm currently reading Douglas Dailey's Ultra-Low Freq Bipolar Protocol Guide.  I'll work on some measurements later today and try to map out the different attachment points on my head (thank you very much for that link, btw).  Any additional help would certainly be appreciated.

 

P.S.  Daily mentioned in an email that SMR at Cz has a history of success for sleep problems, which is my most pressing issue.  Once I get that taken care of, I'll move onto other issues and protocols. 

 


Edited by Strelok, 21 March 2016 - 03:43 PM.


#585 Slipstream

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 08:43 PM

Guys - 

 

What should TAG-Sync sessions "feel" like?

 

I've done a few sessions of Theta-Alpha sync, eyes closed, at Fz-Pz. My experience so far has been this:

 

-The tones play when I have racing thoughts, am "thinking" about past or future, or worry /rumination. They also play when my mind wanders into reverie, fantasy, or dwells on recent memories or images.

 

-Silence and Phase Resets occur when my awareness is "empty" - aware, but not of anything particular. E.g. I'm not actively thinking, ruminating or holding thoughts/images/memories in awareness. It feels like being "blank" a sort of neutral way. I can see how this corresponds to "empty mind" meditiation.

 

However, I'm not experiencing any kind of spiritual or ecstatic states. I'm not even sure I'd say it's a positive or relaxing state - it feels neutral and effortful.

 

Perhaps this changes with greater synchrony, or as I learn to relax into the synchronous state more?

 

I'm not seeking pleasurable/relaxing states - I solely want to realize the cognitive and emotional benefits of TAG. I don't mind if I never get profound experiences during training, as long as it works. But I want to be sure I'm doing it right.

 

I'm excited that at least it's *doing something*, and that what it's doing seems to match Dailey's description of "empty mind". So I hope I'm on the right track.

 

How do you experienced TAG-syncers "feel" during your sessions now? How did it feel when you first started?

 

Thanks guys!


Edited by Slipstream, 22 March 2016 - 08:53 PM.


#586 Bobity

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 09:37 AM

Guys - 

 

What should TAG-Sync sessions "feel" like?

 

I've done a few sessions of Theta-Alpha sync, eyes closed, at Fz-Pz. My experience so far has been this:

 

-The tones play when I have racing thoughts, am "thinking" about past or future, or worry /rumination. They also play when my mind wanders into reverie, fantasy, or dwells on recent memories or images.

 

-Silence and Phase Resets occur when my awareness is "empty" - aware, but not of anything particular. E.g. I'm not actively thinking, ruminating or holding thoughts/images/memories in awareness. It feels like being "blank" a sort of neutral way. I can see how this corresponds to "empty mind" meditiation.

 

However, I'm not experiencing any kind of spiritual or ecstatic states. I'm not even sure I'd say it's a positive or relaxing state - it feels neutral and effortful.

 

Perhaps this changes with greater synchrony, or as I learn to relax into the synchronous state more?

 

I'm not seeking pleasurable/relaxing states - I solely want to realize the cognitive and emotional benefits of TAG. I don't mind if I never get profound experiences during training, as long as it works. But I want to be sure I'm doing it right.

 

I'm excited that at least it's *doing something*, and that what it's doing seems to match Dailey's description of "empty mind". So I hope I'm on the right track.

 

How do you experienced TAG-syncers "feel" during your sessions now? How did it feel when you first started?

 

Thanks guys!

 

Sounds to me like you are doing great.  Don't worry about spiritual/ecstatic states - they are nice if they happen but a distraction if sought after.  To quote Bill Harris of Centerpointe "Let what Happens Be OK".  You are embarking on the most delightful and exciting journey there is accompanied by a "Zen Master" in the form of TAGsync which is clearly perfectly mirroring your internal states as you go.   Let that be your guide.  I wish you happy travels on your way.



#587 Strelok

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 11:12 PM

So I talked with Douglas Dailey, and he got me up and running with TAGSync.  We did a live, remote session, and he made various adjustments to BioExplorer for me.  For the past three days, I've done 30 mins of SMR @ Cz (using a TAGx1 design), followed by TAGx2 at FzPz, F3P3, F4P4 (20 mins at each site). 

 

I'm starting to wonder if something is awry with my TAGSync training.  I have not had a single phase reset occur during those three hours of training.  Is this to be expected?



#588 VastEmptiness

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:12 AM

So I talked with Douglas Dailey, and he got me up and running with TAGSync.  We did a live, remote session, and he made various adjustments to BioExplorer for me.  For the past three days, I've done 30 mins of SMR @ Cz (using a TAGx1 design), followed by TAGx2 at FzPz, F3P3, F4P4 (20 mins at each site). 

 

I'm starting to wonder if something is awry with my TAGSync training.  I have not had a single phase reset occur during those three hours of training.  Is this to be expected?

By phase reset you mean the bell sound? Did you get those when you've been training with Douglas? First idea would be that some setting is completely off. I like to set the rewards that I get around 1-5 bells per 10 seconds. So no, it isn't expected to not have that in 3 hours.



#589 Strelok

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 01:46 AM

 

So I talked with Douglas Dailey, and he got me up and running with TAGSync.  We did a live, remote session, and he made various adjustments to BioExplorer for me.  For the past three days, I've done 30 mins of SMR @ Cz (using a TAGx1 design), followed by TAGx2 at FzPz, F3P3, F4P4 (20 mins at each site). 

 

I'm starting to wonder if something is awry with my TAGSync training.  I have not had a single phase reset occur during those three hours of training.  Is this to be expected?

By phase reset you mean the bell sound? Did you get those when you've been training with Douglas? First idea would be that some setting is completely off. I like to set the rewards that I get around 1-5 bells per 10 seconds. So no, it isn't expected to not have that in 3 hours.

 

 

Yes, the bell sound.  I don't remember getting those when I trained with Douglas.  I've checked the best I can to ensure that the setting for it is ON, but perhaps I'm missing something.  I've attached a screenshot.  I checked that the sound for it "Phase Reset Chime" is enabled, and that its sound level is turned up.  I looked at the properties for the Chime, and those setting seem correct.

 

Can you tell me what your settings are for the Chime Reset box (at the top/middle), or if they are different than what I've got?  I've attached a screenshot of that box as well.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Attached Files



#590 Slipstream

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 01:57 AM

Strelok - looks like you haven't set an upper manual target for each threshold?

 

Phase reset chime only happens when both Reward1 and Reward2 amplitudes go above their respective Manual Target 2. Looks like you have a Manual Target 1 set but no Manual Target 2, for each threshold (on your screen, Rewards 1 and 2 just have one thin green target bar each - they should have two).

 

I set mine so that Manual Target2 = 3x Manual Target1, for each threshold, as per the instructions on page 1 of this thread.  

 

See Page 1, Step 5. Hope that helps :)

 

Just for reference, I'm a few sessions in and have the following config:

 

Threshold1:

MT1: 7u, MT2: 21u

 

Threshold2:

MT1: 5.5u, MT2: 6.5u

 

That gives me 80-90% silence with Eyes Closed, and frequent Phase Reset chimes.  You have to tinker with the targets so you get about the right amount of silence, and thus frequent chimes.


Edited by Slipstream, 26 March 2016 - 02:17 AM.

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#591 Strelok

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 02:21 AM

Thanks Slipstream, you were spot on!

 

This should make training a bit better, lol.  ETA, is there a reason that you train with your eyes closed?  I've been keeping my eyes open so far.


Edited by Strelok, 26 March 2016 - 02:22 AM.


#592 Slipstream

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:28 PM

TAG-Syncers,

 

What are your thoughts on training TAG Sync at F3-F4?

 

I'd like to try this to increase frontal symmetry. My Quick-Q assessment shows F4 alpha and theta significantly higher than their counterpart at F3, and I'd like to reduce the differences. Frontal symmetry in theta and alpha is supposedly good for social processing and emotional regulation.

 

The Chapin NFB book says Dailey uses TAG at F3-F4 to increase frontal symmetry.

 

Does anyone use this placement?

 

It's not obvious to me how TAG would do this. AFAIK TAG rewards an amplitude summed across sites, so it's unclear how it would train the brain to bring the lower amplitude up, or the higher one down. But I guess TAG really trains synchrony not amplitude, so perhaps training F3-F4 equalizes amplitudes via a more complicated mechanism. Maybe the increased synchrony between frontal lobes somehow cascades into better symmetry.

 

I guess I could just do the conventional amplitude reduction training at F4 (or up at F3) but it would be nice if TAG can achieve this.  

 

Anyone done a stint of TAG at F3-F4, and seen results?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Slipstream, 26 March 2016 - 12:30 PM.


#593 Lsdium

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 11:19 AM

Greetings guys.

 

Awesome thread, i am also planing to invest in EEG system and would like to hear how your exprience with TAGsync has been. Especially the user at the begining of the thread, if they are still using it and still see improvement after almost 2 years.

 

 



#594 Slipstream

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 02:33 PM

Does anyone get eye-blink artefact when training TAG sync with one or more frontal lobe sites?

 

I noticed that if I train Eyes-Open, I get delta and some theta when I blink. I understood this was an issue at Fpz, but I seem to get it at Fz/F3/F4 also. Not always a problem but sometimes messes with the reward and triggers the Phase Reset chime spuriously.  Is this common?

 

Still progressing well with eyes-closed though.

 

Also, still really interested to hear if anyone has trained TAG at F3-F4 and benefited.



#595 thebrainstore

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 02:39 PM

I'd be surprised if an eye blink is going to pass through both the alpha and theta filter, and therefore the phase reset chime. You are right that it is more likely to show up as delta but therefore trigger an inhibit - but hopefully that would just train you not to blink quite so much!

 

As for F3/4 that's often a site for over connectivity associated with depression & anxiety and would be consistent with very rigid thinking. I have had huge numbers of phase resets training here, and that's really not a good thing to be encouraging. By huge I mean over a thousand in less than an hour so that particular site is one I avoid and have had much better results training front to back along the midline.


Edited by spektrolyte, 29 March 2016 - 02:41 PM.


#596 Slipstream

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 02:56 PM

Interesting, thank you.

 

Good to know the blinks probably aren't an issue.

 

Yeah I want to be careful with my frontal lobes too, and I've heard that overconnectivity can be bad. At the same time, frontal asymmetry in alpha and theta is undesirable, and I have both.

 

I got the idea for correcting this via TAG sync from the Chapin NFB book that Dailey is associated with. They briefly mention that he has used TAG Sync at F3-F4 to correct frontal asymmetry , but there's no detail: 

https://books.google...y f3 f4&f=false

I will email him and find out.  At any rate I'm surprised at how quickly change happens from training the midline :)  This protocol is the real deal.

 



#597 Autumn Knight

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 09:10 PM

I'm excited to start using the TAGsync system. A little nervous.

OpaqueMind's experience has been really inspiring to me since I have suffered from a similar situation he was in for years now.

 



#598 Crowstream

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 02:29 PM

@Lsdium

 

I am still using TAG Sync, it is still my favorite neurofeedback protocol. I mostly do midline theta-alpha training. I think there is still a lot of potential for growth, each session feels unique and it is like I am discovering something each time  :). I am still surprised sometimes, it is a great protocol to help with meditation I think, it makes those kinds of states far more accessible.


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#599 Slipstream

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 12:18 AM

Does anyone else get a strong band of beta activity when they do eyes-closed TAG?

 

I was initially worried this was beta-spindling, but now I wonder if it’s a harmonic of the alpha-sync.

 

When I do TAG EC I get a strong band of alpha amplitude on the spectral, but also get a thin band of orange beta too. It seems to be around 20-24hz.

 

It’s barely there with EO, as my alpha sync does not increase nearly so much EO.

 

B-T FAQ says that this is a harmonic that can happen with alpha-sync training:

https://brain-trainer.com/answers/about-the-brain/understanding-frequencies/

 

I’ve tried different sites - Fz-PZ, F3-P4 etc - and the beta always seems to be double the alpha-sync frequency (e.g. 10A and 20B, or 12A and 24B, depends on site choice), which would imply it is in fact a harmonic.

 

If so, I guess this isn’t the undesirable beta spindling. In the BrainMaster TAG instructions,  Dailey says beta-spindling is most likely in the 25-30hz range, and comes in patches.

 

I take it that a beta harmonic of alpha-sync is harmless, since it’s an EEG artifact? (is it?!)  

 

Anyone else notice this tight narrow beta band at 2x the alpha-sync frequency, in your TAG EC training? If it’s just me I’m concerned.

 

I’m using the default inhibits, but if this is unwanted beta I’ll need to set them lower. I really don’t want to be inducing any dysfunction.

 

I’ll send DD the screenshots and see what he thinks.  I need to make sure I’m on track before going further. I’ll post them here too if anyone’s interested.

Any thoughts appreciated!



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#600 Crowstream

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 06:29 AM

I usually get something similar in my training, when I have very high alpha amplitude (eyes closed) it looks like there is a harmonic that is 2x the alpha frequency. It can clearly be seen in the spectrum analyzer. In the inhibits I usually have low beta activity in my sessions, I am not sure but maybe it is something that shows up in the spectrum analyzer. Do you also get high beta amplitude in your inhibits?

 

To me it seems like a harmonic, I can be in very deep meditative states and there is almost no thinking, and I can still see this band of beta activity which would indicate an active, thinking mind. That is usually not correlated with my experience I think so I have ignored it a bit. Might still be wise to ask someone like DD of course, I am mostly just speculating but it is based on my experience.


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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: tagsync, theta, alpha, gamma, synchrony, training, neurofeedback, operation, discussion

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