60 replies to this topic

[kramer91]

As some here may know, methylglyoxal seems to play a part in the formation of AGEs. 

 

I know that the body produces more methylglyoxal on a low carb diet, which is why I tend to avoid going low carb. However, foods also contain methylglyoxal: http://www.ncbi.nlm....04564/table/T2/

 

My question is, does methylglyoxal from food get absorbed? I know CMLs from food are only absorbed at about 10% - but can't find any info on methylglyoxal absorption.

 

Thanks.

Edited by kramer91, 26 August 2014 - 02:36 PM.

[niner]

Looking at the structure, I'd expect it to be well absorbed.   Exogenous AGEs from food are distinctly unhealthy.  Helen Vlassara has done a lot of the seminal work in this area. 

[kramer91]

Yeah, I suspect you're right.

 

If I cut out certain foods and healthy fats like Olive Oil in fear of exogenous AGEs and methylgloxal, I'd end up upping my carb, fructose and PUFA intake, which I don't want to do.

 

This whole area is very confusing isn't it? There was a study showing vegetarians have higher levels of AGEs in plasma than Omnivores, despite eating foods very low in AGEs. Makes you wonder whether you're better off consuming more AGEs from food, rather than letting them happen inside the body due to high PUFA/fructose intake or lack of protective nutrients like carnosine, taurine and possibly Zinc (plays a role in the detoxification of methylgloxal, which I imagine vegetarians would also be deficient in).

 

Who knows...

 

EDIT: Link to study - http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11876491

 

Edited by kramer91, 27 August 2014 - 05:15 AM.

[gt35r]

IF i had a choice whether to refuse AGES dietary intake vs reduce formation of AGES from inside, i would choose the latter. 

[niner]

IF i had a choice whether to refuse AGES dietary intake vs reduce formation of AGES from inside, i would choose the latter. 

 

That's what I used to think, until I read Vlassara's work.  You really need to be aware of both.  Don't eat pure fructose just because it is low in exogenous AGEs, and don't eat superheated fatty meat just because it is low carb.  It's pretty easy to reduce your load of exogenous AGEs- you just choose lower temperature cooking methods as a general rule.  At the same time, you need to keep an eye on your blood glucose levels so you don't generate excess endogenous AGEs.

[kramer91]

So what would be a reasonable daily AGE intake?

 

At the moment, mine is about 7000-8000kU.

[twinkly]

niner: Thanks for sharing some of the information on Vlassara's findings. I pay close attention to this as well, making sure to have the majority of my sources raw, when possible, and cooking with minimal amount of temperature. Looking at the chart put forward by kramer91, I was surprised by seeing olive oil on there. I usually don't cook with it, though, and only use it on salads and such (1 tbs). Should I drop it?  

[kramer91]

niner: Thanks for sharing some of the information on Vlassara's findings. I pay close attention to this as well, making sure to have the majority of my sources raw, when possible, and cooking with minimal amount of temperature. Looking at the chart put forward by kramer91, I was surprised by seeing olive oil on there. I usually don't cook with it, though, and only use it on salads and such (1 tbs). Should I drop it?  

Here's another chart you may be interested in: http://www.ncbi.nlm....04564/table/T1/

 

As you can see, avocado has a fair amount. I'm guessing the AGEs in Olive Oil came from the Olive it was extracted from.

 

Keep in mind though, you're not having 100g worth of Olive Oil. Also, you're not absorbing all of the AGEs.

Edited by kramer91, 27 August 2014 - 04:10 PM.

[niner]

Looking at the chart put forward by kramer91, I was surprised by seeing olive oil on there. I usually don't cook with it, though, and only use it on salads and such (1 tbs). Should I drop it?  

 

I would keep the olive oil.  The epidemiology on it is strongly in favor of use.  The more the better, it seems.  (Within reason...)  AGEs seem to be par for the course with lipids.  Sometimes the lipid oxidation products are called ALEs instead.  That is probably an argument in favor of relatively low lipid consumption, but not extraordinarily low.  Try to get a fresh high quality olive oil like the kinds at Amphora Nueva or other quality providers.

[kramer91]

niner: Any comment on why vegetarians may have higher AGEs in plasma?

 

If this is the case, one can only believe AGEs from food are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

[niner]

niner: Any comment on why vegetarians may have higher AGEs in plasma?

 

If this is the case, one can only believe AGEs from food are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

 

My first guess would be that they eat more sugars or carbohydrates that digest quickly to sugar.  The term "vegetarian" encompasses both people with healthy diets and people who eat a lot of junk food, but no meat.  It's also been found that obese people have lower plasma AGEs than matched normal weight people.  In one paper, they speculated that this was due to differences in kidney function.  I think we shouldn't lose sight of what the epidemiology tells us about diet.  There's a lot of complexity in plasma AGE levels, and they might be misleading.  Vlassara's work argues that exogenous AGEs are important.  I think that the plasma AGE level of vegetarians and fat people might be a red herring.

Edited by niner, 27 August 2014 - 08:33 PM.

[JohnD60]

It seems to me that methylglyoxal is just a ketone that should be broken down by the enzyme acetoacetate decarboxylase present during ketogensis.

Edited by JohnD60, 27 August 2014 - 09:16 PM.

[kramer91]

 

niner: Any comment on why vegetarians may have higher AGEs in plasma?

 

If this is the case, one can only believe AGEs from food are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

 

My first guess would be that they eat more sugars or carbohydrates that digest quickly to sugar.  The term "vegetarian" encompasses both people with healthy diets and people who eat a lot of junk food, but no meat.  It's also been found that obese people have lower plasma AGEs than matched normal weight people.  In one paper, they speculated that this was due to differences in kidney function.  I think we shouldn't lose sight of what the epidemiology tells us about diet.  There's a lot of complexity in plasma AGE levels, and they might be misleading.  Vlassara's work argues that exogenous AGEs are important.  I think that the plasma AGE level of vegetarians and fat people might be a red herring.

 

Good points.

 

There's a lot to think about.

 

I'm finding it difficult to construct a decent diet. As someone who doesn't have much faith that a diet primarily based on animal foods and fats is good for your long term health (and also as someone who avoids wholegrains), it's a hassle trying to decide on alternate carb and calorie sources. For example, sometimes I'm left wondering whether a blood sugar spike from white rice is better or worse than eating a ton of fructose from low gi fruits.

 

I've seen a few mentions of 16,000kU being the average exogenous AGE intake, so I suppose my 8000 is not too bad.

[Logic]

...I was surprised by seeing olive oil on there. I usually don't cook with it, though, and only use it on salads and such (1 tbs). Should I drop it?

Keep the Olive Oil:
Activation of the Protein Deacetylase SIRT6 by Long-chain Fatty Acids and Widespread Deacylation by Mammalian Sirtuins.
"...we demonstrate that several biologically relevant FFAs (including myristic, oleic, and linoleic acids) at physiological concentrations induce up to a 35-fold increase in catalytic efficiency of SIRT6 but not SIRT1..."
https://wp.discovery...ctivation-2.pdf

More here:
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=683624

Note that these acids are all found in EV Coconut Oil which is known for not oxidising and becoming rancid when used for cooking.

Cooking with acids like lemon juice and vinegar lessen the amount of AGEs formed from cooking:
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=410548
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=251595

Also Citric Acid as found in Lemon Juice looks to be an AGE blocker:
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=670241

Edited by Logic, 27 August 2014 - 11:41 PM.

[misterE]

Any comment on why vegetarians may have higher AGEs in plasma?

 

 

 

Many vegetarians like to eat a diet high in polyunsaturated-fat, like nuts, seeds, avocadoes, oil and fried-vegetables. The number one cause of free-radicals is the intake of polyunsaturated-fats.
 

[misterE]

My first guess would be that they eat more sugars or carbohydrates that digest quickly to sugar. 

 

Well, carbohydrates like sugar or starch might cause glycation if you are resistant to the beneficial effects of insulin, but most of the glycation comes from polyunsaturated-fats, which according to most vegetarians is a "healthy" type of fat. I know many vegetarians that use vegetable-oil and eat peanut-butter sandwiches religiously, plus they eat handfuls of nuts and seeds daily! I think the best way to avoid AGEs and free-radicals is by eating starch, fruits and vegetables. Definatly stay away from fried--food and cooked animal-products!

 

 

Edit: removed text incorrectly attributed to niner -mod

Edited by niner, 28 August 2014 - 03:02 AM.

[Brett Black]

My first guess would be that they eat more sugars or carbohydrates that digest quickly to sugar. The term "vegetarian" encompasses both people with healthy diets and people who eat a lot of junk food, but no meat. It's also been found that obese people have lower plasma AGEs than matched normal weight people. In one paper, they speculated that this was due to differences in kidney function. I think we shouldn't lose sight of what the epidemiology tells us about diet. There's a lot of complexity in plasma AGE levels, and they might be misleading. Vlassara's work argues that exogenous AGEs are important. I think that the plasma AGE level of vegetarians and fat people might be a red herring.

Wouldn't tissue AGEs be expected to be the real problem?

[niner]

Wouldn't tissue AGEs be expected to be the real problem?

 

A problem, but not the only problem.  See post #5.

[Brett Black]

Wouldn't tissue AGEs be expected to be the real problem?

A problem, but not the only problem. See post #5.

I didn't mean "tissue AGEs" as in "endogenously-formed AGEs"(and yeah I'm well aware of Vlassara etc.) I meant: wouldn't tissue AGEs be expected to be the actual problem as opposed to plasma AGEs?

[niner]

 

 

Wouldn't tissue AGEs be expected to be the real problem?

A problem, but not the only problem. See post #5.

I didn't mean "tissue AGEs" as in "endogenously-formed AGEs"(and yeah I'm well aware of Vlassara etc.) I meant: wouldn't tissue AGEs be expected to be the actual problem as opposed to plasma AGEs?

 

They are different problems.  Tissue AGEs mess up our long-lived structural proteins, but plasma AGEs, that are largely from exogenous AGEs cause a different set of problems, akin to a systemic low level inflammation.  It results in subsequent pathologies, some of which are probably also long lasting.  At any rate, animals on diets that are high in exogenous AGEs but otherwise identical to controls (done by using the same diets, but heating one of them) are less healthy and die a lot sooner.  Glycated hemoglobin, although not technically in the plasma, is an example of a marker AGE that probably isn't itself harmful.  I could certainly imagine glycated proteins that could be found in plasma, and would be similarly non-harmful-  The harmful plasma AGEs are small molecules like malondialdehyde or methylglyoxal.

[twinkly]

To kramer91's point, it is, indeed, a very confusing area.  Now all the positives i had held toward avocados are questioned. I know too much PUFAs aren't advisable under this category. What fat sources should I keep, or include, in my diet? These are some I've had on and off over the months:

 

Pumpkin seeds

Avocados

Thought of trying nut butters, like almond

 

Obviously I go easy on these, and try to be very careful with them. At most, in a day, I have a tsp of Olive oil and a tsp of pumpkin seed, along with no more than 1 avocado, and that's it. Lion's share comes mostly from vegetables, leafy greens, berries, and the occasional few fruits depending on the season. 

 

As Logic noted, vinegar and citric acid as cooking sources sound very interesting and worth trying.   

[kramer91]

This is interesting: http://www.hindawi.c...ri/2013/343914/

 

Basically, long term fructose consumption can result in higher AGE levels. Having fructose less often however, upregulates the glyoxlases responsible for getting rid of reactive dicarbonyls such as methylglyoxal, thus lowering overall AGE formation.

 

Similar to how exercising a few times per week upregulates your body's antioxidant systems.

 

What I take from this is that you should probably eat fructose or high AGE foods every few days, to encourage dicarbonyl detoxification. Otherwise, they may build up.

 

Basically:

 

Occasional oxidative stress = good

Occasional high AGE intake = also good

Edited by kramer91, 30 August 2014 - 12:45 AM.

[blood]

Helen Vlassara has done a lot of the seminal work in this area.

Has Vlassara expressed a opinion on coffee (supposedly 'high' in AGEs)?

I have her book/cookbook The AGE-less Way (which is aimed at a mainstream audience) & there is no mention of coffee.

Edited by blood, 01 September 2014 - 04:09 AM.

[Brett Black]

Helen Vlassara has done a lot of the seminal work in this area.

Has Vlassara expressed a opinion on coffee (supposedly 'high' in AGEs)?

I have her book/cookbook The AGE-less Way (which is aimed at a mainstream audience) & there is no mention of coffee.

Here's the most comprehensive list of food AGE levels (including coffee) that I know of:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....nihms482555.pdf

[kramer91]

Pretty sure it's the methylglyoxal content of coffee that's the problem, not preformed AGEs themselves.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20722928

 

I've got no idea whether that's a significant amount relative to the average blood level of endogenous MG, though. Anyone know how much we usually have circulating?

[Chupo]

A keto diet may increase MG but ketones inhibit AGE formation. It'd be interesting to see the net effect. By the way, MG isn't all bad. It's anti-cancer after all.

[kramer91]

A keto diet may increase MG but ketones inhibit AGE formation. It'd be interesting to see the net effect. By the way, MG isn't all bad. It's anti-cancer after all.

If true, problem with that is you'd have to eat significant amounts of meat and animal fat or butter, which contains a lot of AGEs.

Edited by kramer91, 01 September 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[Chupo]

 

A keto diet may increase MG but ketones inhibit AGE formation. It'd be interesting to see the net effect. By the way, MG isn't all bad. It's anti-cancer after all.

If true, problem with that is you'd have to eat significant amounts of meat and animal fat or butter, which contains a lot of AGEs.

 

It's true. I posted the study here. 

 

 

You don't have to eat cooked food (or even meat) to be ketotic.   Check out this post by a raw paleo dieter who had her AGE levels measured. 

Edited by Chupo, 01 September 2014 - 11:34 AM.

[kramer91]

 

 

A keto diet may increase MG but ketones inhibit AGE formation. It'd be interesting to see the net effect. By the way, MG isn't all bad. It's anti-cancer after all.

If true, problem with that is you'd have to eat significant amounts of meat and animal fat or butter, which contains a lot of AGEs.

 

It's true. I posted the study here. 

 

 

You don't have to eat cooked food (or even meat) to be ketotic.   Check out this post by a raw paleo dieter who had her AGE levels measured. 

 

Yeah, I saw that a while back. I had a look through her posts, she seems to have been raw paleo since 2007. Before that, she was still raw, but ate a lot of fruits.

 

I don't know what to think, to be honest.

[niner]

 

 

A keto diet may increase MG but ketones inhibit AGE formation. It'd be interesting to see the net effect. By the way, MG isn't all bad. It's anti-cancer after all.

If true, problem with that is you'd have to eat significant amounts of meat and animal fat or butter, which contains a lot of AGEs.

 

It's true. I posted the study here. 

 

That paper's not about MG, it's about beta hydroxy butyrate, very different molecule.  I kinda doubt that MG is good for much of anything.