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Flossing may be harmful or at least useless

teeth dental flossing hygiene bacteria inflammation oral brushing

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#31 nowayout

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 05:51 PM

Bacteria have spent 3 billion years playing around in water. I would not trust water to remove dental biofilms, plus it's expensive.

 

That biofilms can grow in water seems irrelevant to the question of whether a high pressure stream of water can mechanically remove biofilms.  Biofilms could also grow on wet floss for that matter, but wet floss can still mechanically remove biofilms.

 

Floss is not cheap either when added up over the years. 


Edited by nowayout, 16 April 2015 - 05:55 PM.

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#32 Kalliste

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 07:43 PM

Floss is very cheap. You can buy the once stuck on a plastic holder and rewash it once every day and use it until it breaks. It's a small price. The opinion that mechanical force is best to remove dental biofilms is not just my personal, I have heard it voiced by a number of periodontologists. Well, I confess it was a few years since I dived deep into periodontology papers so I'll take a look tomorrow and come back and fess up if water tursn out to be superior.

 

But I believe mechanical force is superior in result and in price too. (A good diet too, of course)



#33 icyT

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 04:29 AM

I brush my teeth and rinse out my mouth before I floss, wouldn't that get rid of most of the bacteria? Did this study account for the diff between flossing first and flossing 2nd?

 

If this is a big concern, you could also make ti a step 3 and do some mouth wash as step 2, since the alcohol is antiseptic.

 

I've been trying out these rubber dental-picks, they're way more comfortable to use than floss, doesn't really 'cut' into you as much. There's still blood, but I think that's more due to me just not doing it very often, but it's more like pressure-blood than cut-blood.



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#34 Kalliste

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 04:45 AM

Bacteremia happens from brushing too so that wont help. Using antiseptics won't help in the short run since the Chlorhexidine needs a few days to decrease bacteria in the mouth. By then they will have cleaned out the probiotics too, that probably causes a lot more harm than good. These rinses also attack the probiotic flora in your stomach!

When your gums bleed, that means you have inflammation and bacteria constantly leaking into your system from your filthy gums. You are not being "cut" by floss, you are simply entering an inflammatorily active site, the blood is there because the immune-system has grown an extensive local network of capillary blood vessels to deal with the bacteria in your gingival pockets.


Edited by Cosmicalstorm, 03 May 2015 - 04:47 AM.

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#35 Kalliste

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 11:54 AM

:cool:

 

 

Bleeding gums

Bleeding gums can be a sign that you have or are at risk for gum disease. Ongoing gum bleeding may be due to serious medical conditions such as leukemia and bleeding and platelet disorders.

Causes

The main cause of bleeding gum is the buildup of plaque at the gum line. This will lead to a condition called gingivitis, or inflamed gums.

Plaque that is not removed will harden into tartar. This will lead to increased bleeding and a more advanced form of gum and jawbone disease known as periodontitis.

Other causes of bleeding gums include:

http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/003062.htm

 

 

Free Radic Biol Med. 2013 Feb;55:93-100. doi: 10.1016/j.freeradbiomed.2012.11.013. Epub 2012 Nov 23.
Physiological role for nitrate-reducing oral bacteria in blood pressure control. Abstract

Circulating nitrate (NO(3)(-)), derived from dietary sources or endogenous nitric oxide production, is extracted from blood by the salivary glands, accumulates in saliva, and is then reduced to nitrite (NO(2)(-)) by the oral microflora. This process has historically been viewed as harmful, because nitrite can promote formation of potentially carcinogenic N-nitrosamines. More recent research, however, suggests that nitrite can also serve as a precursor for systemic generation of vasodilatory nitric oxide, and exogenous administration of nitrate reduces blood pressure in humans. However, whether oral nitrate-reducing bacteria participate in "setting" blood pressure is unknown. We investigated whether suppression of the oral microflora affects systemic nitrite levels and hence blood pressure in healthy individuals. We measured blood pressure (clinic, home, and 24-h ambulatory) in 19 healthy volunteers during an initial 7-day control period followed by a 7-day treatment period with a chlorhexidine-based antiseptic mouthwash. Oral nitrate-reducing capacity and nitrite levels were measured after each study period. Antiseptic mouthwash treatment reduced oral nitrite production by 90% (p < 0.001) and plasma nitrite levels by 25% (p = 0.001) compared to the control period. Systolic and diastolic blood pressure increased by 2-3 .5mmHg, increases correlated to a decrease in circulating nitrite concentrations (r(2) = 0.56, p = 0.002). The blood pressure effect appeared within 1 day of disruption of the oral microflora and was sustained during the 7-day mouthwash intervention. These results suggest that the recycling of endogenous nitrate by oral bacteria plays an important role in determination of plasma nitrite levels and thereby in the physiological control of blood pressure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23183324

 
Conclusions

Although amoxicillin has a significant impact on bacteremia from a single tooth extraction, given the greater frequency for oral hygiene, tooth brushing may be a greater threat for individuals at risk for infective endocarditis.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2746717/



#36 Kalliste

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 07:18 PM

I've heard some interesting stuff on a rinse called Delmopinol. Very positive stuff.


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#37 98NSX

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 10:58 PM

For whatever reason, my gums almost always bleed when I floss, although I try to avoid this hapenning. I really only floss to get out food/things that get stuck. Otherwise standard brushing twice a day seems to keep teeth in good health. I can't remember the last time I was at the dentist.....maybe once in the last 25 years.

 

Same happens to at least 1 or 2 sections of my gums everytime I floss. This is the reason why I stopped flossing. -_-

 

"I've heard some interesting stuff on a rinse called Delmopinol. Very positive stuff."

 

Delmopinol has been shown to be very beneficial for those wanting to manage gingivitis.  I've been considering the usage, but always forget to look for it when I'm at cvs or walgreens.


Edited by 98NSX, 02 November 2015 - 11:03 PM.


#38 nowayout

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 05:02 PM

Carefull flossing and brushing is less effective than people think.

 

I have a dental pick I sometimes use.  Even after very thorough flossing and brushing, I can still peel off craploads of plaque with the pick. 

 

Maybe pick cleaning should be part of the regular self-care routine.  I just worry about eroding enamel with the pick in the long term. Would that be a concern? 



#39 aconita

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 12:37 AM

The vast majority of dentists are just scammers, everywhere in the world, the biggest issues in dental health are caused by dentists.

 

Just as an example in the early '80 I went for a check up in a famous dental clinic and according to the x-rays I had a cavity on a wisdom tooth, at my perplexity (I never had a cavity and still don't) the dentist got upset and stated that the x-rays doesn't lie, 35 years later that wisdom tooth is still there and many successive x-ray, including TAC, never showed any cavity there, even reaching back there with an enlargement video camera didn't show anything wrong.

 

If it was for that dentist my wisdom tooth would have be gone by decades (since nobody really fix cavities on wisdom teeth).

 

Interdental brushing causes the lost of the interdental papilla, especially if space is little and the brush is forced in, teeth picking does the same.

 

Bacterial plaque on the visible teeth doesn't really matter that much, it is more the kind of bacteria that matters, good bacteria are the best defense against bad ones (they don't like each others and compete harshly for "territory"), anyway healthy enamel is not effected by bacteria, unhealthy enamel will get cavities even if only very little plaque is present, especially if a plaque of a nasty kind of bacteria. 

 

Chlorhexidine stains teeth, kills eveything bad and good (it is an antibiotic) and ends up in the guts disrupting the microbiome there too,

 

Commercial mouth washes may not stain teeth and are a bit less aggressive but still tend to kill everything indiscriminately in the mouth and elsewhere, in order to not cause too much arm are kind of weak and scarcely effective.

 

Even the most careful flossing and brushing will be unable to reach under the gum line and between teeth everywhere, if the mechanical action of brushing and flossing would be enough to get rid of plaque hygenists should be all unemployed or at least whom does it properly shouldn't need any visit to an hygenists ever.

 

A mouthwash that is able to kill only the bad guys is the only smart way to deal with the issue, a mouth wash is able to go where no picks or brush or floss will ever be able to go (deep gengival pockets, for example), especially in day care routines.

 

That mouthwash does exist and cost close to nothing, almost nobody wants to talk about it, probably because it will put most dentist,, hygenists and tooth paste/mouthwash producers out of business...it is hydrogen peroxide.

 

Mix 3% hydrogen peroxide with 2% xantan gum, few drops of mint essential oil for a pleasant flavor and you'll have the best tooth paste ever (non abrasive and whitening), mouthwash with it afterward (no xantan here) and any periodontitis will disappear in no time.

 

Go one last time to the hygenist for a deep cleaning including root scaling (curettage) in order to remove the hard deposits and hydrogen peroxide will keep you fine almost forever.

 

I just went to the hygenist last week (free) as I do every 6 months (because it is free :)) and as always happens he stated in amazement I didn't need any igene performed because there was no plaque whatsoever, I did it anyway because I was already there and concluded saying to keep doing what I was doing whatever it was because no better can ever be done.

 

Before using hydrogen peroxide I was effected by periodontitis for several years with several deep pockets and all sort of surgical procedures been proposed, no hygenist, brushing or flossing sorted any results, now my gums are as pink as they come and it is almost impossible to have them bleeding, pockets all gone, receding stopped (actually some regrowth) .

 

I brush very mildly only once a day and for no more than 30 seconds, brushing is the main cause of receding gums that in turns cause bone loss.

 

If you had a curettage performed once in your life you'll easily understand that no brushing or flossing will ever be able to remove that plaque, it doesn't matter how hard or long you do it, it is creating the right bacterial environment that doesn't allow bad hard plaque formation in the first place.


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#40 aribadabar

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 10:45 PM

The vast majority of dentists are just scammers, everywhere in the world, the biggest issues in dental health are caused by dentists.

 

Just as an example in the early '80 I went for a check up in a famous dental clinic and according to the x-rays I had a cavity on a wisdom tooth, at my perplexity (I never had a cavity and still don't) the dentist got upset and stated that the x-rays doesn't lie, 35 years later that wisdom tooth is still there and many successive x-ray, including TAC, never showed any cavity there, even reaching back there with an enlargement video camera didn't show anything wrong.

 

If it was for that dentist my wisdom tooth would have be gone by decades (since nobody really fix cavities on wisdom teeth).

 

Interdental brushing causes the lost of the interdental papilla, especially if space is little and the brush is forced in, teeth picking does the same.

 

Bacterial plaque on the visible teeth doesn't really matter that much, it is more the kind of bacteria that matters, good bacteria are the best defense against bad ones (they don't like each others and compete harshly for "territory"), anyway healthy enamel is not effected by bacteria, unhealthy enamel will get cavities even if only very little plaque is present, especially if a plaque of a nasty kind of bacteria. 

 

Chlorhexidine stains teeth, kills eveything bad and good (it is an antibiotic) and ends up in the guts disrupting the microbiome there too,

 

Commercial mouth washes may not stain teeth and are a bit less aggressive but still tend to kill everything indiscriminately in the mouth and elsewhere, in order to not cause too much arm are kind of weak and scarcely effective.

 

Even the most careful flossing and brushing will be unable to reach under the gum line and between teeth everywhere, if the mechanical action of brushing and flossing would be enough to get rid of plaque hygenists should be all unemployed or at least whom does it properly shouldn't need any visit to an hygenists ever.

 

A mouthwash that is able to kill only the bad guys is the only smart way to deal with the issue, a mouth wash is able to go where no picks or brush or floss will ever be able to go (deep gengival pockets, for example), especially in day care routines.

 

That mouthwash does exist and cost close to nothing, almost nobody wants to talk about it, probably because it will put most dentist,, hygenists and tooth paste/mouthwash producers out of business...it is hydrogen peroxide.

 

Mix 3% hydrogen peroxide with 2% xantan gum, few drops of mint essential oil for a pleasant flavor and you'll have the best tooth paste ever (non abrasive and whitening), mouthwash with it afterward (no xantan here) and any periodontitis will disappear in no time.

 

Go one last time to the hygenist for a deep cleaning including root scaling (curettage) in order to remove the hard deposits and hydrogen peroxide will keep you fine almost forever.

 

I just went to the hygenist last week (free) as I do every 6 months (because it is free :)) and as always happens he stated in amazement I didn't need any igene performed because there was no plaque whatsoever, I did it anyway because I was already there and concluded saying to keep doing what I was doing whatever it was because no better can ever be done.

 

Before using hydrogen peroxide I was effected by periodontitis for several years with several deep pockets and all sort of surgical procedures been proposed, no hygenist, brushing or flossing sorted any results, now my gums are as pink as they come and it is almost impossible to have them bleeding, pockets all gone, receding stopped (actually some regrowth) .

 

I brush very mildly only once a day and for no more than 30 seconds, brushing is the main cause of receding gums that in turns cause bone loss.

 

If you had a curettage performed once in your life you'll easily understand that no brushing or flossing will ever be able to remove that plaque, it doesn't matter how hard or long you do it, it is creating the right bacterial environment that doesn't allow bad hard plaque formation in the first place.

 

Thanks for the summary, aconita!

 

Would you expand on your last paragraph on why/how curettage changes the bacterial environment so profoundly?


Edited by aribadabar, 28 December 2015 - 10:46 PM.


#41 aconita

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 06:04 AM

My point is that curettage does not changes the bacterial environment so profoundly at all, it actually changes nothing as far as bacterial environment is concerned.

 

How long it will take after the best oral hygiene, curettage included, for the bacterial bio-film to be back covering teeth and fill up gengival pockets?

 

Few hours at most if your mouth bacteria are really lazy.

 

When a curettage is performed it does remove the calculus below the gengival line which exerts a mechanical stress to the gums too, of course it is appropriate to remove it from the bacterial point of view because an antibacterial alone will not be able to remove hard calculus below the gengival line by itself.

 

In my last paragraph I meant to say that if flossing and brushing were only near to be as effective in removing or preventing bacterial build ups a curettage should not be needed, if you need a curettage it means there is calculus which is bacteria build up and an unequivocally indicator of poor oral hygiene.

 

When I changed my oral hygiene habit from heavy brushing with commercial toothpaste and flossing to very mild brushing with hydrogen peroxide and hydrogen peroxide mouthwash the need for curettage disappeared and scaling once a year (or every 6 months now that I get it for free) is almost just a ritual more than a need.

 

That's because the procedure changes the bacteria environment in the mouth in a way nobody will ever be able to achieve with brushing or flossing doesn't matter how often, carefully or hard they try.

 

In other words bacteria don't pay any attention to your brushing, scaling or curettage procedures, you are not going to make a dent in their microbioma equilibrium with such inadequate methods.  

 

 

 

 

 

 



#42 Kalliste

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 08:20 AM

Hydrogen peroxide is a powerful free radical, I wonder if you will develop oral cancer even though you achieved very clean teeth.

 

 

Even the most careful flossing and brushing will be unable to reach under the gum line and between teeth everywhere, if the mechanical action of brushing and flossing would be enough to get rid of plaque hygenists should be all unemployed or at least whom does it properly shouldn't need any visit to an hygenists ever.

 

A good mechanical routine will get rid of 90-97 % of all plaque depending on local anatomy in my experience.

That's all the body need to shut of it's gingivitis/periodontitis inflammatory response.

The vast majority of people on this planet can not master a proper oral hygiene and as a consequence get localized periodontitis and cavities in their blind spots.

 

Have you tried Delmopinol? It might be a safer alternative to H2O2



#43 aconita

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 09:46 AM

Delmopinol does not kill bacteria, It creates an environment that will not allow plaque biofilm and bacteria to adhere, therefore the mouth microbioma will not change.

 

Not sure if long term use will not cause greater health concerns than hydrogen peroxide, the latter being a natural compound produced by our own organism while Delmopinol is not.

 

There are other and probably safer alternatives to inhibit bacterial biofilm adhesion, like xylitol or arginine. 

 

I have never heard of hydrogen peroxide causing oral cancer, any evidence?

 

Many free radicals antagonists are actually free radicals producers, ascorbic acid for example.is a potentially dangerous pro-oxidative compound in certain metabolic contexts, or schisandra or exercise, both triggering anti oxidant responses because of their pro oxidative action. .

 

Hydrogen peroxide is the undisputed cause of gray hair but in some case applying it to the scalp will reverse gray hair, not very relevant to the topic maybe but just to draw attention on the fact that counter reactions are not be underestimated.

 

The vast majority of people on this planet can not master a proper oral hygiene and as a consequence get localized periodontitis and cavities in their blind spots

 

If that is true it means that traditional oral hygiene practice is an ineffective procedure since a valid one should allow for the vast majority of the people on this planet to obtain satisfactory results.

 

A procedure that only few will be able to master is a virtuoso exercise not a viable everyday hygiene practice.

 

Anyway, with all the due respect, I don't agree with the statement that a good mechanical routine will get rid of 90-97 % of all plaque because it is impossible to mechanically reach every recession, periodontal pocket, below gengival line, between teeth blind spot, etc...leave alone to achieve that everyday.

 

I understand this is your profession but honestly AFAIK oral hygiene doesn't cure or prevent periodontitis, if this would have been the case the pathology would be long time no more a concern for the medical community.

 

Periodontitis is a pathology caused by an unbalance of the microbioma where the bad bacteria do manage to outnumber the good ones, probably caused by immune system issues triggered by many possible factors including stress, nutrition, illness, etc...

 

The solution to the problem is to restore an healthy bacterial environment, not to destroy all bacteria in the silly attempt to achieve an impossible (and unhealthy) sterile one.

 

To inhibit plaque biofilm and bacteria adhesion is only a small part of the equation and I am not even sure it is so desirable in the long run, I rater prefer to have a solid healthy bacteria biofilm in my mouth which will fight off any intruder by itself instead of relying on my ability of brushing it off.

 

 

 


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#44 Kalliste

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 06:29 PM

In my experience, having seen hundreds of periodontitis sufferers in person and probed their bleeding (plaque ridden) subgingival pockets I can say without any hesitation that the majority of them are cured within in days of starting a rigorous personally crafted oral hygiene program. The marginal bone only grows back on children, but even with adults the acute (swollen, bleeding gums) phase of the periodontal inflammation is gone within days of starting a good oral hygiene. After a couple of months of good hygiene plus a good scraping if they have developed subgingival hardened biofilms, the pockets will almost be gone in all but a few (some unlucky few suffer a more aggressive version of periodontitis, maybe H2O2 is good for them?)

 

No need for H2O2, although that might helpt. I'm not qualified to say if H2O2 in large local applications will cause any long term damage but I got to say it seems a bit risky.



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#45 Sith

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 04:34 PM

I floss every single day. Flossing is very useful and should be used daily alongside brushing. People tend to oversimplify flossing as just removing food debris, it's much more than that! Flossing removes plague from interdental spaces and just below the gum line. Flossing also loosens the space between teeth and gums for toothpaste to penetrate easily. I must admit, it is easy to floss in an incorrect manner, this may lead to problems and the few problems associated with flossing may arise from flossing in an incorrect way.  

 

Flossing is paramount to dental health!  


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