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ephedrine as an anti-depressant, sub needed

ephedrine dysthymia

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#1 juverulez

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 10:47 AM


I have recently been using ephedrine for weight-loss purposes. My tolerance to stims is on the low side, so I have never gone higher than 36 mg bust most days I don't exceed 15 mg.

 

Surprisingly, ephedrine provides a pretty reliable (as in replicable) anti-depressant effect which cannot be mistaken for placebo. I have since started taking it about 5 x week to boost my mood. This is only an interim solution as many of you will agree using stimulant as an antipressant is not sustainable, hence my next question:

 

What anti-depressant, OTC or otherwise can be used to sub ephedrine? Anything with a similar mechanism of action? I am thinking selegeline/rasegeline or wellbutrin, what do you think? I like tyrosine but tolerance builds up quickly.

 

My depression (or bouts of low mood should I say) are characterised by low energy/motivation, slugishness and apathy. Dysthymia seems to encompass all of those.

 

Just in case you are wondering, yes I do take care a good care of myself. Ephedrine is not exactly candy so I support my adrenals with rhodiola/bacopa magnesium and vit C and top up my catecholamines with tyrosine several times per week.

Your thoughts?


Edited by juverulez, 18 October 2014 - 10:48 AM.

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#2 juverulez

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 08:19 AM

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#3 Galaxyshock

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:37 AM

You could try Perika brand St. John's Wort. It works as SNDRI because of the hyperforin-standardization. Give it a couple of weeks for best effects.



#4 juverulez

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:00 PM

Never really been a big fan

#5 Soma

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 08:00 PM

I would definitely work to move away from ephedrine. It has a rather narrow therapeutic window and potentially quite cardiotoxic.

#6 juverulez

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 01:27 PM

Well, I am aware ephedrine is anything but a perfect compound for depression, hence my quest for a replacement. I do agree that its effects are short in duration and therefore I have been using +- 15 mg/day split into two doses (AM and noon)

 

With that being said, there is no literature whatsoever suggesting that small doses (sub 20 mg/day ) could be 'cardiotoxic' in people without preexisting heart condition (like myself). In terms of potential overstimulation, I feel that bacopa in the evening(or even during the day) balances the action of ephedrine nicely.

 

Let's get back to the crux to of the problem: are you aware of suitable alternatives? I have high hopes for selegeline which I haven't received just yet.

 

In my experience, the following options offer a degree of relief, however not as dramatic as ephedrine:

 

- bright light therapy first thing in the morning (30 mins+) to restore catecholamine sensitivity

- tyrosine works great BUT tolerance develops quickly

- rhodiola makes me feel emotionally flat and slow witted

- exercise (any form really)- I work out in some shape or form every day (4x resistance training, stretching/mobility work 3x week, 30 min walk 3x week)

- power nap

- fasting (+4-5 hours between meals)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#7 Soma

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 02:55 PM

Have you tried agmatine? I have no experience with it personally but have been strongly considering it. It is a rather multifaceted compound with numerous other benefits. There is a recent short thread about it here.

Evidences for the agmatine involvement in antidepressant like effect of bupropion in mouse forced swim test
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23583442

Antidepressant-like effect of agmatine and its possible mechanism
http://www.sciencedi...014299903017357

Evidence for serotonin receptor subtypes involvement in agmatine antidepressant like-effect in the mouse forced swimming test
http://www.researchg...d_swimming_test

The clinical antidepressant effect of exogenous agmatine is not reversed by parachlorophenylalanine: a pilot study
http://journals.camb...601521512000201

#8 datrat

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 07:29 PM


The clinical antidepressant effect of exogenous agmatine is not reversed by parachlorophenylalanine: a pilot study
http://journals.camb...601521512000201

 

I can't find the full study, but in the abstract it says agmatine doses of 2-3 mgs/day. That's got to be a misprint most user reports are on 600 - 1,000 mg 2X/day.

 

I've been using it for a number of weeks now and do like it for it's anxiolytic affects.
 



#9 juverulez

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 09:25 PM

Wow, there are some crazy interactions with agmatine. Where do you get yours? Ideally I would prefer sth with a more predictable mode of action

#10 AOLministrator

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 11:22 PM

1. Ephedrine doesn't work against depression, what you are experiencing is very likey being tired/burned-out/overloaded because of something else (like bad family life, emotionally overcompensating, physical issues, poisoning, whatever) if you don't have some freak-variant of ADHD or something. This 'relief' effect is very typical with stimulants, especially such physically acting ones, because they are just like pumping more juice into the already overexerted system. Ephedrine is not really like (SS)NRI or antidepressants, it is more like l-amphetamine + strong coffee just physically pushing, mental component is very low compared to the pharmaceuticals.

 

2. Selegiline doesn't really do much of anything in 5-10mg, pretty nootropic up to at least 5mg/day. It is metabolized to l-meth l-amphe that is why it has a bit of a push to it (like regular coffee), that gets bigger when you increase single dosages. Best way to avoid that, and also MAO-A inhibition, seems to be evenly distributed intake. MAO-A though is rather what you really wanted if your concern was depression because it raises serotonin and all the endogenous catecholamines not just dopamine.

 

3. Ephedrine causes the 100% kind of withdrawal, meaning that all the effects and side-effects will absolutely and entirely disappear unless you increase the dosage indefinitely. Ephedrine withdrawal develops super-fast and is pretty unpleasant imho. I had just one 100 capsule bottle and just took it every day for a month or so, nothing special really happened in that time. Then I ran out and ended up with very weird "out-of-proportion" vision twisting sea sickness feelings in bed, mental confusion and feeling ill and fatigued for days couldn't sleep well or much ... whatever, motivation and proper lucidity destroyed for a month and such. It is just similar to coffee, just one notch worse, when you get such intense and disabling headaches after 1-2 days quitting, and it had basically no spectacular benefits when you drank it. This is not like meth/cocaine or anything, where the immediate withdrawal at least matches to the power of the drug. It is just nasty shit and the drug was rather nasty and boring to begin with. Seriously if you feel "this is the stuff" on the drug then do yourself a favor and get some speed or something because (disregarding addiction potential) it will do a lot more for you in the same kind of direction but without taxing your body as much. If I were into serious weight loss I would get myself some DNP because this is actually more healthy than ephedrine measured by effect, if you know what you are doing.

 

Also another thing: Most of the initial positive aspects will be lost entirely, basically forever, after you first took it. In the beginning you get those slight tingles in your head and increased motivation from the push but after you did your first nasty withdrawal you get it maybe on day 1 even after long pauses and on day 2 your brain will go like "I know this already, so meh." and nothing spectacular will happen. People said though it will be good for a month again if you don't take it for like 2-5 years ...


Edited by Aolministrator, 07 November 2014 - 11:49 PM.


#11 juverulez

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 08:06 PM

1. Ephedrine COULD work as anti-depressant, albeit not a very effective one, as it does reliably stimulate dopamine production. Now, I agree that it is not ant-depressant per se, but saying that it doesn't exert anti-depressant effects in individuals with subpar dopamine functioning or those with dopamine-dependant depression is simply false.

 

I do agree that stimulants are not the answer to depression/burn out experienced by many individuals, myself included due to their inability to fix things long term (as stimulation/increased NE/Dopamine fade away).

 

I suspect that I simply need more days off from the gym. Could also use a winning lottery ticket to relieve those financial woes.

 

2. Not sure if I caught your drift on Sel dosing- could you clarify? Do you mean to say that dosing sub 5 mg might yield positive effects?

Also, Sel will only metabolise into amp metabolites in trace amounts... This is why the amp metabolism is NOT the reason Sel has a positive effect on motivation, or a push feel to it as you chose to put.

 

I am awaiting Sel and Rasegiline which doesn't convert into amp metabolites at all but I am not sure which one to try first, I am really curious about the potential both have when stacking with something like bacopa.

 

A boost in all catecholamines as opposed to dopamine only would actually be very much welcome on my part.

 

 

3. It is clear that you have had some bad experiences with ephedrine and while I appreciate your input, this substance (or any other for that matter) doesn't affect everyone the same way. I can easily contrast your story of untold sorrow with a report from yours truly where ephedrine performs nothing short of miraculous in the energy/well-being department. So while I do no think that ephedrine is a side-effects brain candy, it is important to note that literature DOESN'T support your notion of (rather wicked) withdrawal symptoms associated with Eph consumption. For more info, I invite you to read this study where 24 weeks of ephedrine didn't bring on any withdrawal symptoms:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8384186

 


Thank you for your input, this post was by no means intended as bashing

 

 

 

1. Ephedrine doesn't work against depression, what you are experiencing is very likey being tired/burned-out/overloaded because of something else (like bad family life, emotionally overcompensating, physical issues, poisoning, whatever) if you don't have some freak-variant of ADHD or something. This 'relief' effect is very typical with stimulants, especially such physically acting ones, because they are just like pumping more juice into the already overexerted system. Ephedrine is not really like (SS)NRI or antidepressants, it is more like l-amphetamine + strong coffee just physically pushing, mental component is very low compared to the pharmaceuticals.

 

2. Selegiline doesn't really do much of anything in 5-10mg, pretty nootropic up to at least 5mg/day. It is metabolized to l-meth l-amphe that is why it has a bit of a push to it (like regular coffee), that gets bigger when you increase single dosages. Best way to avoid that, and also MAO-A inhibition, seems to be evenly distributed intake. MAO-A though is rather what you really wanted if your concern was depression because it raises serotonin and all the endogenous catecholamines not just dopamine.

 

3. Ephedrine causes the 100% kind of withdrawal, meaning that all the effects and side-effects will absolutely and entirely disappear unless you increase the dosage indefinitely. Ephedrine withdrawal develops super-fast and is pretty unpleasant imho. I had just one 100 capsule bottle and just took it every day for a month or so, nothing special really happened in that time. Then I ran out and ended up with very weird "out-of-proportion" vision twisting sea sickness feelings in bed, mental confusion and feeling ill and fatigued for days couldn't sleep well or much ... whatever, motivation and proper lucidity destroyed for a month and such. It is just similar to coffee, just one notch worse, when you get such intense and disabling headaches after 1-2 days quitting, and it had basically no spectacular benefits when you drank it. This is not like meth/cocaine or anything, where the immediate withdrawal at least matches to the power of the drug. It is just nasty shit and the drug was rather nasty and boring to begin with. Seriously if you feel "this is the stuff" on the drug then do yourself a favor and get some speed or something because (disregarding addiction potential) it will do a lot more for you in the same kind of direction but without taxing your body as much. If I were into serious weight loss I would get myself some DNP because this is actually more healthy than ephedrine measured by effect, if you know what you are doing.

 

Also another thing: Most of the initial positive aspects will be lost entirely, basically forever, after you first took it. In the beginning you get those slight tingles in your head and increased motivation from the push but after you did your first nasty withdrawal you get it maybe on day 1 even after long pauses and on day 2 your brain will go like "I know this already, so meh." and nothing spectacular will happen. People said though it will be good for a month again if you don't take it for like 2-5 years ...

 


 



#12 AOLministrator

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 10:06 PM

3. I am telling you that the stuff is nasty not because I am some super-exception but so that you can google it yourself and read what real people experienced from it. Not so that you can confirm your already existing idea with one single dodgy resource, or did you try to invalidate my point with it? This study is just less than 100 people and sounds pretty biased and nonsensical in that it i.a. concludes "no withdrawal observed" because that is either an attestation for lacking the implements to observe them, or a plain understatement or just not possible. If you value this abstract over a hundred reports of people on forums and in IRC getting headaches from just using 20mg a day in 2 month plus other effects like triggering depression and making them lethargic (whereas I am indeed on the far end extreme with my experience), then either it means that the stuff on ebay additionally contains the weirdest kind of poison or that you just should make the reality check instead. You can find all kinds of nonsense on pubmed in this sample size range, e.g. that chelation therapy works well against autism and that neurofeedback basically cures ADHD ... just phrased in med/pro-speak. It is not that suddenly "literature DOESN'T support" the personal experiences of the Internet as if it was speaking against it, since that hardly can be called corresponding literature at all. Studies are only good for getting some certainty in observation for complicated correlations that are above people's heads and overall kind of conflicting existing knowledge or nonsensical as a whole. Observing side-effects however is a pretty easy task and more reliable to be reflected well by someone describing it first hand and interpreted by someone with corresponding experience accounting directly for observation biases, than being reduced in detail by some questionaire in some  pilot study (or even worse just observed / guessed about by a third party, like medical personel) into some simplistic and easily interpretable mass-compatible format. It is very hard to just outgrow this disadvantage with sample sizes.

 

1. Ephedrine cannot work as an antidepressant because its stimulant component outweighs the mental component by some extremely ridiculus factor. Its side-effect profile is probably worse than that of atropine. If you take it all the time it loses its effect and only causes withdrawal, like coffee, just that simple. Whatever you believe to have argued with your dopamine thing is just esotheric. Ephedrine is not proven nor tested to be effective against depression, that was the scientific part. Nothing else exists beyond this lack of observation except either first hand experience, wild guesswork or esotericism since we do not have a working physical model of mental disorders nor the brain (nor anything that even remotely approximates it) nor depression by which we could possibly foresee any effect. At least any effect that distinguishes itself in importance from the one of an active placebo, which ephedrine clearly is (at least). So maybe active placebo is really the explanation here why it works for you?

 

2. I meant that up to 5mg Selegiline doesn't have much of an effect or side-effect at all and if so it is only slightly enhancing coginitive function (i.e. like all the other nootropics). Maybe if you take it above 5-10mg/day it will cause you to get into the range where it can even have effects with considerable disadvantages to them in the first place, like problems with blood pressure, agitation, or mental confusion which are more in the range of psychiatric drugs, like antidepressants, than they are what you would commonly call to be nootropic (my failure to mention here though that there might be differences in MAO gene expression in as many as 15% of the population which could influence that). I am not sure where you get that 'only trace amounts' part from, since I tried and couldn't look up the metabolic ratios nowhere on the net (please let me know). For all I know you can know, nobody knows how much Selegiline metabolizes into methamphetamine and amphetamine, but telling from introspective there is definitively something that is acting exactly like l-amphetamine would (estimated from knowing the difference between just d-amphetamine and racemate) that also has this meth-ish touch to it. Maybe that is actually the primary action of l-deprenyl besides acting as a MAOI but I heavily doubt that. Especially having noticed the difference between rectal and oral consumption. I took it once in the morning and then went to bed I clearly felt it driving my heart faster within just 30 minutes without any MAOI action possible in that time. I don't really know. And I especially want to know how to eliminate the metabolites, because it is just wasting the stuff to miniscule amounts of l-amphetamine that only cause worthless physical effects. Though still Selegiline is so much cheaper than Rasegiline ... even if 80% of it would be wasted to amphetamine metabolites it is not like that makes the drug worse to alternatives if measured by price. If you can take it with a few drops of fat orally mixed into tea in small sips over the day (or just buy the pricey patches) because I believe that is what both minimizes MAO-A (entirely up to 10-20mg) and also reduces the amphetamine metabolites. Just guessing that though from very lose experiences.

 

I am not saying that drinking a little bit of coffee can't be beneficial. Same with a little bit of ephedrine. But it is just nothing on par with mental disorders and doesn't even relate to depression. Though antidepressants are on par with active placebo for all we know ... so if you are part of that ignorant mass of people who think that the drug actually works then maybe I am just talking from the wrong perspective.


Edited by Aolministrator, 11 November 2014 - 10:18 PM.


#13 juverulez

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Posted 13 November 2014 - 05:33 PM

Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one my friend. I hope you won't hold it against me if I say that you do sound angry, did I do anything to make you upset?

 

3. I think it boils down to how much you value you put in anecdotal reports/studies.

 

The study conducted was a rather lengthy one and as such it shouldn't be dismissed. Of course, no study is perfect and certain things could be overlooked but I personally don't get overly intense withdrawals from Ephedrine- I think it is all in the dose.

 

1. What is so esoteric about dopamine dependent depression? Not following you on this at all mate.

 

Eph clearly CAN exert anti-depressive effects but of course it is a stretch to call it a fully fledged anti depressant. I would probably compare it to a lavishly sexy blonde with a strong dislike for condoms as opposed to an SSRI if you catch my drift :)

 

 

 

2. A lot of subjectivity here... But rest assured I am not expecting sel/ras to enable me to see through the walls. All I am after is a nice, steady increase in dopamine or better still improved dopamine functioning. Come to think of this, Bacopa already does it but in a slightly too suppressive for me liking manner

 

 

 

3. I am telling you that the stuff is nasty not because I am some super-exception but so that you can google it yourself and read what real people experienced from it. Not so that you can confirm your already existing idea with one single dodgy resource, or did you try to invalidate my point with it? This study is just less than 100 people and sounds pretty biased and nonsensical in that it i.a. concludes "no withdrawal observed" because that is either an attestation for lacking the implements to observe them, or a plain understatement or just not possible. If you value this abstract over a hundred reports of people on forums and in IRC getting headaches from just using 20mg a day in 2 month plus other effects like triggering depression and making them lethargic (whereas I am indeed on the far end extreme with my experience), then either it means that the stuff on ebay additionally contains the weirdest kind of poison or that you just should make the reality check instead. You can find all kinds of nonsense on pubmed in this sample size range, e.g. that chelation therapy works well against autism and that neurofeedback basically cures ADHD ... just phrased in med/pro-speak. It is not that suddenly "literature DOESN'T support" the personal experiences of the Internet as if it was speaking against it, since that hardly can be called corresponding literature at all. Studies are only good for getting some certainty in observation for complicated correlations that are above people's heads and overall kind of conflicting existing knowledge or nonsensical as a whole. Observing side-effects however is a pretty easy task and more reliable to be reflected well by someone describing it first hand and interpreted by someone with corresponding experience accounting directly for observation biases, than being reduced in detail by some questionaire in some  pilot study (or even worse just observed / guessed about by a third party, like medical personel) into some simplistic and easily interpretable mass-compatible format. It is very hard to just outgrow this disadvantage with sample sizes.

 

1. Ephedrine cannot work as an antidepressant because its stimulant component outweighs the mental component by some extremely ridiculus factor. Its side-effect profile is probably worse than that of atropine. If you take it all the time it loses its effect and only causes withdrawal, like coffee, just that simple. Whatever you believe to have argued with your dopamine thing is just esotheric. Ephedrine is not proven nor tested to be effective against depression, that was the scientific part. Nothing else exists beyond this lack of observation except either first hand experience, wild guesswork or esotericism since we do not have a working physical model of mental disorders nor the brain (nor anything that even remotely approximates it) nor depression by which we could possibly foresee any effect. At least any effect that distinguishes itself in importance from the one of an active placebo, which ephedrine clearly is (at least). So maybe active placebo is really the explanation here why it works for you?

 

2. I meant that up to 5mg Selegiline doesn't have much of an effect or side-effect at all and if so it is only slightly enhancing coginitive function (i.e. like all the other nootropics). Maybe if you take it above 5-10mg/day it will cause you to get into the range where it can even have effects with considerable disadvantages to them in the first place, like problems with blood pressure, agitation, or mental confusion which are more in the range of psychiatric drugs, like antidepressants, than they are what you would commonly call to be nootropic (my failure to mention here though that there might be differences in MAO gene expression in as many as 15% of the population which could influence that). I am not sure where you get that 'only trace amounts' part from, since I tried and couldn't look up the metabolic ratios nowhere on the net (please let me know). For all I know you can know, nobody knows how much Selegiline metabolizes into methamphetamine and amphetamine, but telling from introspective there is definitively something that is acting exactly like l-amphetamine would (estimated from knowing the difference between just d-amphetamine and racemate) that also has this meth-ish touch to it. Maybe that is actually the primary action of l-deprenyl besides acting as a MAOI but I heavily doubt that. Especially having noticed the difference between rectal and oral consumption. I took it once in the morning and then went to bed I clearly felt it driving my heart faster within just 30 minutes without any MAOI action possible in that time. I don't really know. And I especially want to know how to eliminate the metabolites, because it is just wasting the stuff to miniscule amounts of l-amphetamine that only cause worthless physical effects. Though still Selegiline is so much cheaper than Rasegiline ... even if 80% of it would be wasted to amphetamine metabolites it is not like that makes the drug worse to alternatives if measured by price. If you can take it with a few drops of fat orally mixed into tea in small sips over the day (or just buy the pricey patches) because I believe that is what both minimizes MAO-A (entirely up to 10-20mg) and also reduces the amphetamine metabolites. Just guessing that though from very lose experiences.

 

I am not saying that drinking a little bit of coffee can't be beneficial. Same with a little bit of ephedrine. But it is just nothing on par with mental disorders and doesn't even relate to depression. Though antidepressants are on par with active placebo for all we know ... so if you are part of that ignorant mass of people who think that the drug actually works then maybe I am just talking from the wrong perspective.

 



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#14 juverulez

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 01:30 PM

A quick update:

 

I have been test-driving rasageline (0.25 mg everyday) with the occasional low dose of ephedrine (5mg for a 220 lbs lean individual) and caffeine/tyrosine etc. as needed. I am weaning myself off ephedrine, down from 15 then 10 and now 5 mg.

I also added CoQ10, NADH, Mg with Alcar+resveratrol for mitochondrial support as this is more sustainable source of energy. So far so good- subtle changes in motivation but nothing major. My mood seems to have improved a fair bit though.

 

Nothing like the higher dose of ephedrine though... (15 mg)







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