21 replies to this topic

[deon10]

Hey guys,

 

I've been a member of this awesome place for over 3 years and I want to thank everybody as I have found it to be an amazing resource, specially when it comes to nootropic stacks.

 

Recently, I've been looking at making an anti-stress/anxiety stack, that is effective, but most importantly that you can take and feel immediately (opposed to long-term chronic stress/anxiety treatment)... for example, before a presentation, an important meeting, a date with your crush   Something to make you chill and happy

 

What I found that works great is Kava. Oh man, this is an awesome ingredient, and specially if taken in its root form, and strained the traditional way, makes you feel amazing. I would put it easily top of the list for me.

 

With this in mind, what else would you add to an immediate anxiety-busting stack? Many people talk of Lavender, Ashwaganda, Rhodiola Rosea, Theanine, L-Tryptophan or Schisandra, but I have never experimented with any of those. As you can tell, I have a preference for herbal ingredients, but if you think something else is better, I would appreciate if you shared your opinions on that too.

 

Thank you in advance! 

Edited by deon10, 10 November 2014 - 07:24 PM.

[Bateau]

Aside from Kava, the only supplements with lots of scientific evidence are Ashwagandha and lavender like you mentioned, as well as high dose inositol. That is not to say these are the only supplements that are efficacious, but they are the only ones with a good deal of evidence to back up their use.

 

As far as mechanisms of actions go, Kava, honokiol and magnolol look the most promising. Theoretically the changes they make in the brain could reduce anxiety even when they aren't in your system anymore. So far the only human studies for magnolia have been on Relora, which is a low dose of magnolia with phellodendron amurense, and they have not been as promising as the previously mentioned supplements.

 

As far as personal experiences go, Kava has still been the most potent for me, followed by lavender( Silexan sold as 'Calm Aid'). Ashwagandha (I've tried KSM-66) i generally don't feel, lemon balm provides a much more noticeable effect but that's probably because it seems much more sedating than the other ones. Haven't tried high dose inositol.

 

Theanine and Rhodiola wont do a great job at reducing anxiety per se, but I understand why they've been mentioned in this context. Rhodiola is pretty decent for reducing the negative effects of chronic and acute stessors, theanine is good for relaxing stimulant jitters, neither will hold a candle to kava or lavender for acute anxiety reduction, cant say i've ever felt any anxiety eduction from schizandra. Theanine will definitely give you the most tangible change in mood of the 3. You might find it relaxing without having a huge effect on reducing anxiety, if that makes sense at all.

Edited by Bateau, 10 November 2014 - 07:43 PM.

[deon10]

Aside from Kava, the only supplements with lots of scientific evidence are Ashwagandha and lavender like you mentioned, as well as high dose inositol. That is not to say these are the only supplements that are efficacious, but they are the only ones with a good deal of evidence to back up their use.

 

As far as mechanisms of actions go, Kava, honokiol and magnolol look the most promising. Theoretically the changes they make in the brain could reduce anxiety even when they aren't in your system anymore. So far the only human studies for magnolia have been on Relora, which is a low dose of magnolia with phellodendron amurense, and they have not been as promising as the previously mentioned supplements.

 

As far as personal experiences go, Kava has still been the most potent for me, followed by lavender( Silexan sold as 'Calm Aid'). Ashwagandha (I've tried KSM-66) i generally don't feel, lemon balm provides a much more noticeable effect but that's probably because it seems much more sedating than the other ones. Haven't tried high dose inositol.

 

Theanine and Rhodiola wont do a great job at reducing anxiety per se, but I understand why they've been mentioned in this context. Rhodiola is pretty decent for reducing the negative effects of chronic and acute stessors, theanine is good for relaxing stimulant jitters, neither will hold a candle to kava or lavender for acute anxiety reduction, cant say i've ever felt any anxiety eduction from schizandra. Theanine will definitely give you the most tangible change in mood of the 3. You might find it relaxing without having a huge effect on reducing anxiety, if that makes sense at all.

Thank you so much for your response.

 

Yeah, we both agree Kava is the best thing out there. But I've taken it only in Root Powder form, have you felt any feelings from capsules? At what doses? Many people say they don't feel much from capsules, but I wonder if it depends on the brand or what.

 

I get what you mean by theanine not helping much with anxiety but being calming. The stack i'm looking to make would ideally have both of these properties though (something like weed/alcohol without the bad effects). So maybe a combination of Kava, Lavender, Theanine (+caffeine?) and lemon balm could be a good stack? (Ashwaghanda has a lot of research behind it, but you said you didn't feel much from it so I don't know, maybe I could add it)

 

The problem is, I'm not used to making stacks but I know better than to just to take the effective dose of each ingredient and combine them, no? Wouldn't that be too much?

 

Effective dosages would be, as I understand:

 

Kava: 200-300 mg (with 30% kavalactone content), or more for a more powerful effect

Theanine: 200 mg

Lemon Balm: 500-600 mg

Lavender: It's tricky, most of the time it's found in oil format. Other than the product you mentionned which has 80 mg, there is one called Stress Relax Serenity Formula, which has 150 mg of a powder extract(??)

 

 

Valerian (which I forgot to mention in my first post for some reason, despite many people liking it): 500mg-1g

Ashwaghanda: 200-250mg

 

Would you agree these are the usual effective doses? But I don't know how to make a stack out of it. Taking the ED for each one seems like it could be too much

 

Thanks again boss

Edited by deon10, 10 November 2014 - 08:24 PM.

[Bateau]

I've taken both pills and had the traditionally prepared Kava brew and they both work, pills are much more convenient and dont numb your mouth, generally not quite as strong  as the brew but they were always strong enough for me. Kava and theanine doses are right, for lavender you should use Silexan/Calm-Aid, its the only one with evidence and its standardized and not even expensive. That kava dose is considered the daily dose but i would always just take it all at once.

 

Ive only ever used Cyracos brand lemon balm, which swanson carries at a good price but they're 600mg pills, Ive only ever used 300mg and could notice the effects, its the most studied lemon balm extract, for cyracos 300mg could be an acute dose and 600mg being your daily dose. Double that for other basic lemon balm extracts.

 

Never tried valerian, its more for sleep than anxiety but it could be effective, its got a close cousin that's used in Ayurveda called Jatamansi thats anxiolytic, nootropic, adaptogenic, fatigue reducing.... really a much cooler herb than valerian IMO.

 

The ashwagandha dose is right if using a potent extract like Sensoril or KSM-66, which is what i would suggest, other basic root extracts will need a higher dose.

 

Since it seems like you're looking for the recreational feel Id suggest California Poppy. Its commonly paired with kava to get a more noticeable head change.

 

Ive stacked all the anxiolytics together and its not ever "too-much", with the lemon balm you may get a little sleepy with everything else on board. Once or twice I noticed an incredibly recreational feeling when combining Kava with Cali pop and Lemon balm and 1 or 2 other things i cant remember ATM (passion flower and/or lavender maybe?) that i would describe as a incredibly comfortable contentedness with your surroundings that makes the world feel extra "thick", almost as if you're swimming through it.

Edited by Bateau, 10 November 2014 - 09:07 PM.

[RonBurgandy]

I used to mix Passion Flower, Lemon Balm, and Valerian into a tea and sip on it after throwing back 1.5g Aniracetam, 1g of Taurine and 200mg of Theanine. 

 

That's one of my favorite combos... It felt slightly similar to a low dose benzo while still holding my cognitive abilities at or above baseline.

 

Sometimes I'd take out the Valerian though if I wanted to reduce some of the sedative effect.

[deon10]

I've taken both pills and had the traditionally prepared Kava brew and they both work, pills are much more convenient and dont numb your mouth, generally not quite as strong  as the brew but they were always strong enough for me. Kava and theanine doses are right, for lavender you should use Silexan/Calm-Aid, its the only one with evidence and its standardized and not even expensive. That kava dose is considered the daily dose but i would always just take it all at once.

 

Ive only ever used Cyracos brand lemon balm, which swanson carries at a good price but they're 600mg pills, Ive only ever used 300mg and could notice the effects, its the most studied lemon balm extract, for cyracos 300mg could be an acute dose and 600mg being your daily dose. Double that for other basic lemon balm extracts.

 

Never tried valerian, its more for sleep than anxiety but it could be effective, its got a close cousin that's used in Ayurveda called Jatamansi thats anxiolytic, nootropic, adaptogenic, fatigue reducing.... really a much cooler herb than valerian IMO.

 

The ashwagandha dose is right if using a potent extract like Sensoril or KSM-66, which is what i would suggest, other basic root extracts will need a higher dose.

 

Since it seems like you're looking for the recreational feel Id suggest California Poppy. Its commonly paired with kava to get a more noticeable head change.

 

Ive stacked all the anxiolytics together and its not ever "too-much", with the lemon balm you may get a little sleepy with everything else on board. Once or twice I noticed an incredibly recreational feeling when combining Kava with Cali pop and Lemon balm and 1 or 2 other things i cant remember ATM (passion flower and/or lavender maybe?) that i would describe as a incredibly comfortable contentedness with your surroundings that makes the world feel extra "thick", almost as if you're swimming through it.

 

Amazing response man, thank you so much for taking the time to share all that info.

 

How much was in the Kava pills you took?

 

California Poppy seems to have very mixed clinical studies, most finding them useless. How much of it did you take to feel something? Maybe with Kava it might produce different effects

 

Would love to know what those two other ingredients were (and dosages if you remember)! I'm going to Whole Foods right now to buy some of the things you suggested. I'll have to be my own guinea pig for a little bit haha

 

I used to mix Passion Flower, Lemon Balm, and Valerian into a tea and sip on it after throwing back 1.5g Aniracetam, 1g of Taurine and 200mg of Theanine. 

 

That's one of my favorite combos... It felt slightly similar to a low dose benzo while still holding my cognitive abilities at or above baseline.

 

Sometimes I'd take out the Valerian though if I wanted to reduce some of the sedative effect.

Thanks man! Those three are all things I will probably buy tonight. What is the Taurine for?

[smccomas01]

Kratom is awesome.

 

I no longer need to take anti depressants or any pain meds (I have RA).

 

It has turned my life around for the better.  

[Bateau]

Kratom is awesome.

 

I no longer need to take anti depressants or any pain meds (I have RA).

 

It has turned my life around for the better.  

 

Opiates generally shouldn't be suggested unless one has to deal with chronic pain, like in your situation.

 

I have heard some interesting reports about kratom though. Some use it for socializing, which is ironic because opiates have never been social drugs. Seems to be way less sedative than other opiates. technically the nmda inhibition should also make it one of the less addicting opiates (along with methadone and tramadol)

 

How long have u been on it? opiates are known to be fantastic anti-depressants acutely, but generally the anti-depressant effect tapers down and disappears with chronic use. If it's been providing potent anti-depressant effects for that long, than its probably the nmda inhibition thats helping with the depression side of things, which would mean things lie memantine would make a decent anti-depressant alternative if kratom loses its punch after a while.

[smccomas01]

I have been taking it off and on for about 3 months. What I have found is the Bali strain works best for me. I have energy with out being jittery my mood is improved I feel like talking to people and I actually care about my job and I enjoy my work. I sleep a lot better and my outlook is generally upbeat and positive. I have not felt that in well over 2 years I typically say "I am surprised I have not been fired." Most people think I am joking well the reality is I am not.

 

I was on Cymbalta it made me anxious, gave me the craps and I could not ejaculate (TMI I know).

 

I have tried various strains what I have found is that the Bali works best for me at a low does around 2.5 grams orally. The times I have stopped taking it the closest thing I have experienced to a withdrawal symptom I have had is... well I sleep. I have watched my cousin in withdrawal from opiates and it is NOTHING like that.

 

Tell me more about the memantine you speak of.   

 

[Soma]

Kava has always given me a strange side effect. I get a mild burning sensation in my mucous membranes, a slight burning type headache, and I smell a very faint smell of something somewhat like maple syrup. The burning sensations, although mild, are extremely unpleasant and certainly cancels out any weak anxiolytic properties it may have. Kava in anything less than megadoses must be very weak sauce indeed. I've never noticed any of the anxiolytic effects that people mention.

[Bateau]

I was on Cymbalta it made me anxious, gave me the craps and I could not ejaculate (TMI I know).

 

Tell me more about the memantine you speak of.   

 

Just a note: Personally I don't think there is TMI on this website, unless it provides no useful information. Side-effects, although sometimes not considered socially-appropriate, are always worth mentioning here.

 

Memantine is generally considered the go-to NMDA inhibitor. Its currently the only medication being used to treat alzhiemers in the U.S. that isn't an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. Other nmda inhibitors generally cause dissociation or hallucinations (ketamine and "whip-its" [nitrous oxide] are examples), while the method in which memantine inhibits the NMDA receptor allows it to maintain more normal function than other nmda inhibitors while still having therapeutic value, which means no recreational effects that the other drugs i mentioned have.

 

Quite often you hear anecdotes that it was helpful for treating depression and anxiety in individuals that have tried it, NMDA inhibitors are known to be effective anti-depressants. If you decide to take it, it will potentate the effects of kratom and will make it easy to black out if drinking alcohol. It is healthy for your brain though, and is considered a nootropic.

Edited by Bateau, 11 November 2014 - 03:49 PM.

[deon10]

Kratom is awesome.

 

I no longer need to take anti depressants or any pain meds (I have RA).

 

It has turned my life around for the better.  

 

I heard a lot of good things about kratoma and it always comes up in the same conversation as kava.

 

The process of making Kratom tea is annoying though, with all that boiling and making sure it doesn't burn, etc... that's why I haven't tried it yet.

Kava has always given me a strange side effect. I get a mild burning sensation in my mucous membranes, a slight burning type headache, and I smell a very faint smell of something somewhat like maple syrup. The burning sensations, although mild, are extremely unpleasant and certainly cancels out any weak anxiolytic properties it may have. Kava in anything less than megadoses must be very weak sauce indeed. I've never noticed any of the anxiolytic effects that people mention.

Hey Soma, what kind of Kava have you taken? At what doses?

 

I'm personally someone who doesn't feel much from many supplements and herbs, but Kava is definitely one of the few if not the only which I have gotten a very pleasurable and noticeable effect from.

[Bateau]

 Kava in anything less than megadoses must be very weak sauce indeed.

 

Gonna have to completely disagree with this.

[smccomas01]

I take it in capsule form. A note on the pain relief, I am still in a small level of discomfort it is more tolerable than not taking anything however it is still there. I have taking other meds Vicodin, Oxy's I was still in pain and high and I still not give a damn about anything.

 

For pain relief what has worked for me is 800mg Ibu's and Kratom.

 

I am going to do some research on the NMDA inhibitors.

    

[smccomas01]

Please do not take anything I have written as trying to push something I am not. Topic was anxiety and stress relief I am sharing my experience with kratom someone with RA had suggested I try it for pain I did some research on the various strains and found what works best for me.

 

When I say that it has helped me to start caring about my job, I had bills going into collections because I had not paid them. Was not because I did not have the money it was I really did not care. It is not like that anymore I am starting to come back to a more normal state mentally. 

[deon10]

Please do not take anything I have written as trying to push something I am not. Topic was anxiety and stress relief I am sharing my experience with kratom someone with RA had suggested I try it for pain I did some research on the various strains and found what works best for me.

 

When I say that it has helped me to start caring about my job, I had bills going into collections because I had not paid them. Was not because I did not have the money it was I really did not care. It is not like that anymore I am starting to come back to a more normal state mentally. 

No problem. Many people I know who have tried it said it helped them with starting their business, focusing on it, etc... Those are all great effects too

[Soma]

Hey Soma, what kind of Kava have you taken? At what doses?
I'm personally someone who doesn't feel much from many supplements and herbs, but Kava is definitely one of the few if not the only which I have gotten a very pleasurable and noticeable effect from.

I have taken a freeze dried powder in capsules made from the liquid that one would drink in the traditional setting. It is from eclectic institute. I took the max dosage after repeated trials produced zero effects. So, in the end 3.5 grams (612 mg kavalactones) produced only the burning sensations mentioned. There was not even a hint of relaxation or anything positive.

Per capsule: KAVA KAVA(PIPER METHYSTICUM) UNFILTERED JUICE OF WHOLE LATERAL ROOT, 100% FRESH FREEZE-DRIED - 425 Mg
Average assay: 76.5 mg kavalactones (18%).

[deon10]

 

Hey Soma, what kind of Kava have you taken? At what doses?
I'm personally someone who doesn't feel much from many supplements and herbs, but Kava is definitely one of the few if not the only which I have gotten a very pleasurable and noticeable effect from.

I have taken a freeze dried powder in capsules made from the liquid that one would drink in the traditional setting. It is from eclectic institute. I took the max dosage after repeated trials produced zero effects. So, in the end 3.5 grams (612 mg kavalactones) produced only the burning sensations mentioned. There was not even a hint of relaxation or anything positive.

Per capsule: KAVA KAVA(PIPER METHYSTICUM) UNFILTERED JUICE OF WHOLE LATERAL ROOT, 100% FRESH FREEZE-DRIED - 425 Mg
Average assay: 76.5 mg kavalactones (18%).

 

Ok, that seems like a good source.

 

I guess not everything works for everyone! Some people don't respond to creatine, for example

[jroseland]

I would consider Phenibut... I've been taking it for about a month now every couple of days and it's awesome for stress relief. It takes about 30-40 minutes to take effect 

Edited by jroseland, 12 November 2014 - 01:10 AM.

[RonBurgandy]

I would consider Phenibut... I've been taking it for about a month now every couple of days and it's awesome for stress relief. It takes about 30-40 minutes to take effect 

 

 

Only thing I would take into consideration is potential downregulation of GABA receptors with Phenibut. I've heard some complaints of people having some pretty extensive withdrawals with higher/longer dosing. Then again, most everything we're talking about here has that potential, some more than others I guess.

[deon10]

I would consider Phenibut... I've been taking it for about a month now every couple of days and it's awesome for stress relief. It takes about 30-40 minutes to take effect 

 

 

 

I would consider Phenibut... I've been taking it for about a month now every couple of days and it's awesome for stress relief. It takes about 30-40 minutes to take effect 

 

 

Only thing I would take into consideration is potential downregulation of GABA receptors with Phenibut. I've heard some complaints of people having some pretty extensive withdrawals with higher/longer dosing. Then again, most everything we're talking about here has that potential, some more than others I guess.

 

Yep, I have phenibut, and have used it in the past successfully. But like Ron mentioned, I don't like the withdrawal effects which makes it not convenient to take when you want or as much as you want. It's still a great compound

 

I bought some supplements, and will be my own guinea pig for a little bit.

 

Seems to me that the problem is that herbs, compared to actual medication for example, vary a lot on the effects they have on different people, and the strength of those effects.

[Jassie121]

Hi all IM Jassica, im 20 im new to this ...

 

 

 

I have been diagnosed with anxiety, I was involved with an incident,  I want to start with amino acid Gaba what are the best syntheses to take so that it absorbed and gets through the brain barrier,  picamilon which has GABA with VITAMIN B3 complex.  which picamilon brand is effective there is alot of fake stuff out there.

Serotonin will be next 

 The next amino acid will be serotonin which I will take will be 5htp.  If that doesn't work then Mangnulia

 

Endorphin will be next so I need advise please