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Why isn't there more talk on OXYTOCIN?

oxytocin

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#1 sub7

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 10:13 AM


There are indeed a lot of threads about Oxytocin on this board. However the vast majority are on the potential cognitive effects.

 

I am sure many have seen this piece of research where Oxytocin turns old muscle into young muscle :

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24915299

 

First of all if oxytocin merely worked in muscle and no other tissue, (and assuming for a moment that somewhat similar results can be replicated in humans) this would already be huge.

Secondly, does this not raise the possibility that Oxytocin may have other similar anti-aging effects in other tissue also?

 

Why are there not more discussions? The stuff is reliably available, cheap and has a human safety record...

 

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

By the way, here is a writeup on it from PatrickArnoldBlog.com :

 

Oxytocin is a relatively small peptide hormone (nine amino acids) that is produced in the posterior pituitary gland.  Although it is produced in both men and women, the most well known function of oxytocin is in females where it acts as a facilitator of uterine contractions during labor, and as a stimulator of milk release from the breasts in the post-partum period.  More recent research has implicated oxytocin in the emotional bonding response that occurs between females and their infant offspring, and also that which occurs with adult romantic partners over time.  You may have heard that oxytocin is released after sex especially in women (which may be why women tend to be more affectionate afterwards).   Oxytocin is also FDA approved as a drug to facilitate labor in women and to help with post childbirth bleeding.

Like many hormones in the body, science is discovering that oxytocin may have a wide variety of actions on multiple tissues – activities beyond the classical ones for which it is most well known.  Most recently evidence has popped up suggesting that oxytocin is a factor in the regeneration of muscle tissue and that its levels are suppressed with age.

Researchers at UC Berkeley published a paper demonstrating that oxytocin is an indispensable factor in the healthy repair and maintenance of skeletal muscle tissue.   They used young and old mice and showed that levels of oxytocin in the older mice were much lower than the younger mice.  Administration of oxytocin (by subcutaneous injection) for a few days restored the ability of muscle to repair itself in these older mice to levels seen in younger mice.   Conversely, mice bred with inability to produce oxytocin were born normal but quickly developed sarcopenia (muscle loss associated with aging).

The mechanism of this enhanced muscle regenerative capacity is thought to be due to increasing the proliferation and activation of muscle satellite cells.   Muscle satellite cells are known to decrease with aging and they serve a key role in muscle recovery and growth.  Injury (exercise induced or via trauma) causes the release of certain chemical signals which stimulate satellite cells to fuse with their parent muscle cells where they add myonuclei (the powerhouse of protein synthesis within the muscle cell).

It has been shown previously that muscle cells possess functional oxytocin receptors and that muscles themselves can manufacture oxytocin.  One study in particular showed that in cattle the expression of oxytocin in muscle is increased dramatically in cattle receiving the anabolic steroid implant Revalor H, and it is speculated that oxytocin may be related to the increased muscle mass that results.   The UC Berkeley study now shows that direct systemic administration of oxytocin may have positive effects upon skeletal muscle as well.

As I mentioned previously, oxytocin is an FDA approved drug so its safety profile has been examined.  However its intended use is short term, and any usage to treat a condition such as sarcopenia would require more long term administration.   Oxytocin is also available freely from veterinary stores and is actually not very expensive.  I don’t really know what dosages might theoretically work in a human (if any dose would work at all).



#2 sthira

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 11:34 AM

It may be great stuff and worth a try. But it seems like a scam when we see companies charging $56.95 for 7.5 ml sublingual drops that last only a few weeks (http://www.amazon.co...ile?pc_redir=T1) and that may or may not even be honest.

.


Are you offering samples?

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#3 sub7

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 12:07 PM

It may be great stuff and worth a try. But it seems like a scam when we see companies charging $56.95 for 7.5 ml sublingual drops that last only a few weeks (http://www.amazon.co...ile?pc_redir=T1) and that may or may not even be honest.

Are you offering samples?

 

Just so there is no misunderstanding:

 

- I am not offering samples, nor in any way shape or form involved with the sale of any product at all. I am just hoping to learn and inquire.

 

- I never brought up sublingual Oxytocin and, as far as I know, the only feasible method of delivery is injection. Perhaps to keep the discussion focused and undiluted we should (for now at least) focus on the proven delivery method of injection as opposed to alternative forms of administration.

 

With that all said, does anyone see broader anti-aging potential with this substance beyond muscle tissue?

 

Thanks to all



#4 corb

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Posted 03 January 2015 - 01:38 AM

Why are there not more discussions? The stuff is reliably available, cheap and has a human safety record...

 

There was a bit of discussion on the topic, but a general one, not about oxytocin but on supplementing peptides and proteins in the blood of aged individuals and also the epigenetics of aging. Also GHK which works on the same mechanism like oxytocin but is supposed to have less side effects as far as I know, has seen quite a bit of discussion on this and the supplements forum.



#5 sub7

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Posted 04 January 2015 - 11:14 AM

quick bump before letting this die...


Edited by sub7, 04 January 2015 - 11:14 AM.


#6 Area-1255

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 05:46 PM

I believe oxytocin has it's uses in the short-term, but I can't see it as a long-term protocol for the following reasons.

 

1.) It can be expensive, and we would need a reliable source.

2.) Using oxytocin may wear out the natural production, why would we want to do that?

3.) There are other important neuro-peptides that need to be kept in a delicate balance with oxytocin, such as neuropeptide Y, Vasopressin and Neurokinin.

 

Better off just maximizing dopamine and histamine levels, would progress long-term benefits with other benefits.


Edited by Area-1255, 05 January 2015 - 05:46 PM.

  • Agree x 1

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#7 sub7

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 07:10 PM

Thanks a ton Area

How about whether Oxytocin can do the same thing for other tissues that it does for muscle (regress them to a more youthful stage).

Of course the answer will be speculation at this stage, but it is speculation that often results in the greatest discoveries; so let us....



#8 DukeNukem

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 09:45 PM

I think the biggest issues are the high cost, and finding a trusted source.


  • Agree x 2

#9 sub7

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 10:33 AM

I think the biggest issues are the high cost, and finding a trusted source.

 

I am totally surprised that high cost is being brought up at all.

Based on what I read from a few other forums, it is actually surprisingly cheap. I have also looked around pharmacy prices globally just out of curiosity and it appears quite cheap actually.

Now if the so-called "research chemical" sites that some people bring up in other forums supply a good quality product, I have no idea. However, my understanding is that the molecule itself is not at all hard to synthesize and deliver in somewhat high quantities...

 

By the way, is there any likelihood of turning on cancer-related cells (or hinder apopotosis that would normally get rid of cancer cells) when "turning old muscle into young muscle" via oxytocin?



#10 DukeNukem

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 05:11 PM

Sub, let us know when/where you find a good Oxytocin product.  I'd be a buyer if LEF or Revgenetics made it, and it wasn't too expensive.



#11 sub7

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 08:25 PM

Sub, let us know when/where you find a good Oxytocin product.  I'd be a buyer if LEF or Revgenetics made it, and it wasn't too expensive.

 

Unfortunately I do not think there is any chance of either of these companies offering Oxytocin at any price whatsoever.

Oxytocin is a drug and is a prescription medicine as far as I am aware.
Besides, injection is the only proper route of administration.

 

The above companies will not deliver a prescription medicine without a doctor's written order.

Even if were not prescription, they are unlikely to offer anything injectable.


Edited by sub7, 06 January 2015 - 08:26 PM.

  • Good Point x 1

#12 pone11

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Posted 25 August 2015 - 10:38 PM

I think the oxytocin research done at Berkeley by Irina Conboy is some of the most important anti-aging research done in the last five years, and I feel it is totally under-discussed and not properly appreciated.   Here is one of her studies:

http://ir.nmu.org.ua....pdf?sequence=1

 

This discussion fails to appreciate what is most attractive about injectible oxytocin:  

 

1) It is CHEAP.   The reason it is cheap is because it is widely used in human medicine to induce labor, and it is extremely widely used in veterinary medicine.    

 

2) It has FDA approval!    This is a GIGANTIC thing.   An FDA approval would cost $200M for other more promising substances, and no one wants to make that investment in clinical trials.   Even getting funding for human research in early stages is very very tough.   

 

You cannot compare injectable oxytocin to the inhaled form.   The inhaled form has a short half life and unproven benefit.   It's only sold at ridiculous prices by very questionable outfits.   

 

One of the posts here raises the valid question what will happen to the endogenous production of oxytocin if you are injecting it.   That's certainly an important issue for research to address if the oxytocin is to be injected as a long-term remedy for sarcopenia.

 

We spend a lot of time on Longecity talking about use of substances that will never get an FDA approval (or a cheap source for purchase) for 10 to 15 years.   Oxytocin is something that could start to have large scale benefits quickly.    But where is the research focusing on long-term human use?  

 

I think the original poster's question is very appropriate:  why isn't there more talk (and research!) on Oxytocin?


  • Good Point x 2

#13 Rocket

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 01:44 PM

The half life in blood is measured in minutes.  Wouldn't you need to have an IV plugged into your arm 24/7 for any benefits???


Edited by Rocket, 18 September 2015 - 01:50 PM.


#14 Area-1255

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 02:40 PM

My reserve would be that we would be assuming that our body's our going to take full advantage of oxytocin and as far as 'youthful' muscle that is also an assumption because we are assuming it's uptake INTO muscle is going to be in proportion to a dose that is so readily decided by a number of other physiological factors.

  1. Age
  2. Genetics; receptor concentration
  3. Medications that may suppress oxtyocin; SSRI's , antihistamines, some antiinflammatories etc
  4. Concentrations of other neuropeptide regulators such as testosterone, estrogen, prolactin etc
  5. Dietary patterns (how long without eating, not about macronutrients etc)

 

Endocrinol Exp 1976;10(4):259-66

Inactivation of Oxytocin and its analogues by subcellular fractions of hen tissues.
Brzezińska-Slebodzińska E.


Abstract

The enzymic inactivation of oxytocin by liver, kidney, uterus and pancreas homogenate subcellular fractions of hens was studied. Oxytocin was most rapidly degraded by the soluble fraction of tissues examined. All the subcellular fractions of liver and kidney inactivated oxytocin, but only the microsomal and soluble fractions of uterus and pancreas showed the oxytocin-inactivating activity. The location of enzymes inactivating oxytocin in subcellular fractions of hen tissues was investigated with the aid of synthetic analogues of oxytocin (deamino-oxytocin and deamino-carba1-oxytocin). The carboxamidopeptidase activity, hydrolyzing the amide bonds in the linear portion of oxytocin was located in the soluble fraction of hen liver, kidney and uterus. No carboxamidopeptidase activity in the pancreatic soluble fraction was found. These results showed that aminopeptidase activity is bound to heavy subcellular particles in the hen tissue. An action of unknown endopeptidases was observed in the microsomal fraction of uterus and pancreas.


[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Peptides.[/size] 1995;16(6):1141-7.[/size]

Metabolism of vasopressin, oxytocin, and their analogues in the human gastrointestinal tract.
Fjellestad-Paulsen A1Söderberg-Ahlm CLundin S.


Author information
 



Abstract

The bioavailability from the gastrointestinal tract of peptides as large as nonapeptides is very low, which may be attributed to extensive lumenal and mucosal degradation. The aim of the present study was to investigate the stability of the neurohypophyseal hormones arginine-vasopressin (AVP), oxytocin (OT), and their synthetic analogues in human intestinal contents, small intestinal brush-border membranes, and gastric, rectal, and colonic plasma membranes. Peptides were incubated in gastrointestinal contents from healthy volunteers and in human intestinal mucosa homogenates. The extent of degradation was determined by reversed-phase high performance liquid chromatography (HPLC). AVP was rapidly degraded in the ileum fractions of the intestinal contents whereas 50% of the analogue 1-deamino-8-D-arginine vasopressin (dDAVP) remained intact after 35 min. The degradation was pH dependent, and a concentration-dependent inhibition was observed when aprotinin, a proteinase inhibitor, was preincubated with contents from the ileum. No degradation of AVP, dDAVP, or oxytocin analogues was observed in the mucosa homogenate from the stomach. The peptides were found to be rather slowly degraded by intestinal microvilli membranes and colonic and rectal plasma membranes. This degradation occurred essentially when reduced glutathione 10(-4) M was added to the incubations. In conclusion, the major enzymatic barrier to intestinal absorption of OT, VP, and their analogues is present in the intestinal juice and not in the mucosa, which, however, constitutes a major physical barrier to peptide transport.




[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Edited by Area-1255, 18 September 2015 - 02:41 PM.


#15 Avatar of Horus

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 08:38 PM

...

I am sure many have seen this piece of research where Oxytocin turns old muscle into young muscle :

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24915299

 

...

Secondly, does this not raise the possibility that Oxytocin may have other similar anti-aging effects in other tissue also?

...

 

In a press release accompanying the study its effect on the aging related bone loss, the osteoporosis was mentioned:

‘Trust hormone’ oxytocin helps old muscle work like new, study finds
By Sarah Yang | June 10, 2014

http://news.berkeley...e-regeneration/

...

Previous research by Elabd found that administering oxytocin helped prevent the development of osteoporosis in mice that had their ovaries removed to mimic menopause.

...

 

The study also cites the relevant paper:

Oxytocin controls differentiation of human mesenchymal stem cells and reverses osteoporosis
Elabd et al. 2008

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18583541

 

Also worth noting that in the Pubmed website, at the original link quoted above, there are two detailed scientific comments, one of them by one of the authors: Irina Conboy.



#16 Rocket

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 11:19 AM

What usefulness does a peptide with a half life measurable in a couple of minutes have?  It's relatively cheap so I would be willing to lab test it on my 194lb giant rat with subq dosing. 



#17 sub7

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 06:41 PM

bumpy...



#18 sub7

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 05:45 PM

I think the oxytocin research done at Berkeley by Irina Conboy is some of the most important anti-aging research done in the last five years, and I feel it is totally under-discussed and not properly appreciated.   Here is one of her studies:

http://ir.nmu.org.ua....pdf?sequence=1

 

This discussion fails to appreciate what is most attractive about injectible oxytocin:  

 

1) It is CHEAP.   The reason it is cheap is because it is widely used in human medicine to induce labor, and it is extremely widely used in veterinary medicine.    

 

2) It has FDA approval!    This is a GIGANTIC thing.   An FDA approval would cost $200M for other more promising substances, and no one wants to make that investment in clinical trials.   Even getting funding for human research in early stages is very very tough.   

 

You cannot compare injectable oxytocin to the inhaled form.   The inhaled form has a short half life and unproven benefit.   It's only sold at ridiculous prices by very questionable outfits.   

 

One of the posts here raises the valid question what will happen to the endogenous production of oxytocin if you are injecting it.   That's certainly an important issue for research to address if the oxytocin is to be injected as a long-term remedy for sarcopenia.

 

We spend a lot of time on Longecity talking about use of substances that will never get an FDA approval (or a cheap source for purchase) for 10 to 15 years.   Oxytocin is something that could start to have large scale benefits quickly.    But where is the research focusing on long-term human use?  

 

I think the original poster's question is very appropriate:  why isn't there more talk (and research!) on Oxytocin?

Pone,

 

Thanks a lot for revitalizing and resurrecting this thread. You are making very good points, all of which indeed do point to the potential advantages of oxytocin.

Please read this thread in its entirerity

 

http://www.prohormon...n/#entry1394174

There is one very positive user feedback in there, which with a n=1 is sure not worth much. However, the very disheartening issue there is that the dose suggested for muscle hypertrophy (by an extremely knowledgeable individual; Patrick Arnold) is orders and orders of magnitude higher than the dose one finds in both human and veterinary medicine. I am talking around 20-30 times that which is needed to induce labor or something (If my memory serves me right, which it may not). Definitely worth a read, however...

 

 

 

 

 

My reserve would be that we would be assuming that our body's our going to take full advantage of oxytocin and as far as 'youthful' muscle that is also an assumption because we are assuming it's uptake INTO muscle is going to be in proportion to a dose that is so readily decided by a number of other physiological factors.

  1. Age
  2. Genetics; receptor concentration
  3. Medications that may suppress oxtyocin; SSRI's , antihistamines, some antiinflammatories etc
  4. Concentrations of other neuropeptide regulators such as testosterone, estrogen, prolactin etc
  5. Dietary patterns (how long without eating, not about macronutrients etc

 

Hi Area-1225

Very glad to have attracted your attention to this Brother...

 

Take a look at my comments earlier in this post. With the kinds of doses quoted by Patrick Arnold, even if a tiny portion is taken up into the muscle, the effect may be very pronounced...

Furthermore, if there was uptake into the muscle of animals in studies, why shouldn't there be similar pharmacodynamics in humans? After all, this was not in vitro, but using live animals...



#19 pone11

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 06:21 AM

 

I think the oxytocin research done at Berkeley by Irina Conboy is some of the most important anti-aging research done in the last five years, and I feel it is totally under-discussed and not properly appreciated.   Here is one of her studies:

http://ir.nmu.org.ua....pdf?sequence=1

 

This discussion fails to appreciate what is most attractive about injectible oxytocin:  

 

1) It is CHEAP.   The reason it is cheap is because it is widely used in human medicine to induce labor, and it is extremely widely used in veterinary medicine.    

 

2) It has FDA approval!    This is a GIGANTIC thing.   An FDA approval would cost $200M for other more promising substances, and no one wants to make that investment in clinical trials.   Even getting funding for human research in early stages is very very tough.   

 

You cannot compare injectable oxytocin to the inhaled form.   The inhaled form has a short half life and unproven benefit.   It's only sold at ridiculous prices by very questionable outfits.   

 

One of the posts here raises the valid question what will happen to the endogenous production of oxytocin if you are injecting it.   That's certainly an important issue for research to address if the oxytocin is to be injected as a long-term remedy for sarcopenia.

 

We spend a lot of time on Longecity talking about use of substances that will never get an FDA approval (or a cheap source for purchase) for 10 to 15 years.   Oxytocin is something that could start to have large scale benefits quickly.    But where is the research focusing on long-term human use?  

 

I think the original poster's question is very appropriate:  why isn't there more talk (and research!) on Oxytocin?

Pone,

 

Thanks a lot for revitalizing and resurrecting this thread. You are making very good points, all of which indeed do point to the potential advantages of oxytocin.

Please read this thread in its entirerity

 

http://www.prohormon...n/#entry1394174

There is one very positive user feedback in there, which with a n=1 is sure not worth much. However, the very disheartening issue there is that the dose suggested for muscle hypertrophy (by an extremely knowledgeable individual; Patrick Arnold) is orders and orders of magnitude higher than the dose one finds in both human and veterinary medicine. I am talking around 20-30 times that which is needed to induce labor or something (If my memory serves me right, which it may not). Definitely worth a read, however...

 

To me it is obvious that oxytocin injections in humans will have a similar effect to mice.   The question is safety and consequences of long term persistent dosing.

 

I interacted briefly with the lead researcher at Berkeley asking why they were not doing human studies.  The answer is money (as usual).  They cannot get funding for human research, and in fact I got the impression they have problems getting funding for further animal research too.

 

Here is a drug with FDA approval that is CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP and could literally change the world within a few years, yet no one wakes up and prioritizes human research.    It's horrific bad decision making on the part of those with money to fund research on aging.

 

As a result, this ends up being used only by - as in your example - aging weighlifters, who are used to injecting foreign substances in endless pursuit of perfection.    It's just wrong that normal people have no legal options to get the benefit of this drug.

 

Was it your impression from the links you posted that the users there are buying the veterinary version and then trying to use that on themselves?   That's double risk since a product for animals is probably not a pharma grade and there might be other contaminants in there like heavy metals.



#20 sub7

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 08:23 AM

I have actually spoken to the guys injecting it and no they were not using veterinary products. As mentioned in the thread I have posted the link to, there is a dosing issue that I cannot make sense of (you will need to read the whole thread over there to see what I mean). The dose recommended for muscle rejuvenation is simply enormous, as in just uttery ridiculous. I had looked at dosages of human and vet products and if I am not mistaken, human grade is like 5 iu per ml, while animal products are 10 iu per ml. And believe it or not, people were talking about injecting 250 iu per shot. That is simply impossible to do with those concentrations (might be slightly mistaken about the precise numbers, so please correct me if you do read the linked thread). Therefore, those guys had obtained oxytocin in powder form and mixed it with bacteriostatic water themselves to obtain very high concentrations. It was not an expensive powder and what they did wasn't very hard to replicate. This however, raises the question of safety.

 

Oxytocin is not as safe a product as people think -if taken at such crazy doses. Patrick Arnold was saying that it could even kill you if you inject it into a vein. At those insane doses, we are talking about serum levels that are possibly never tested before in humans.



#21 RobbieG

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 06:54 PM

Fascinating article about lactic acid bacteria Lactobacillus reuteri  found in the gut increasing oxytocin and increasing (surprisingly) wound healing 

 

" In the present study, we find that administering purified L. reuteri organisms in drinking water induces a significant up-regulation of the neuropeptide hormone oxytocin in mice."

 

 

 

 



#22 xEva

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:58 AM

Just to make a note here regarding the dosage (in case it may become handy later :)). Taken from Materials and Methods section of Conboy's 2013 paper on oxytocin mentioned above:
 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4512838/

"Mice were injected daily with 50 μL of OT (1 μg g−1 of mice)..."

here OT = oxytocin

"OT was purchased from Bachem (H-2510)."

Material Safety Data Sheet http://msds.bachem.com/H-2510.pdf
Solubility in/Miscibility with water: at 25°C 10 g/L


So, 1 microgram of OT per 1 g of a mouse comes to 60-70 milligram for a 60-70kg human, divided by 6 or 7 (per approx. mouse->human dosage conversion), this makes an injectable dose of about 10 milligram -?

Compare to human usage of OT:
 

http://www.drugs.com/pro/oxytocin.html

Oxytocin Injection USP (SYNTHETIC)
FOR INTRAVENOUS INFUSION OR INTRAMUSCULAR USE

"To prepare the usual solution for intravenous infusion – one mL (10 units) is combined aseptically with 1,000 mL of a non-hydrating diluent."

"Intravenous Infusion (Drip Method)—To control postpartum bleeding, 10 to 40 units of Oxytocin may be added to 1,000 mL of a nonhydrating diluent and run at a rate necessary to control uterine atony.

Intramuscular Administration — 1 mL (10 units) of Oxytocin can be given after delivery of the placenta."

How is Oxytocin Supplied
Oxytocin Injection, USP (synthetic) is supplied as follows:

Strength: 10 USP Units/mL <----- how these USP units convert to milligrams?
Volume: 1 mL fill in a 3 mL vial, packaged in trays of 25."

"Parenteral drug products should be inspected visually for particulate matter and discoloration prior to administration, whenever solution and container permit."

""Treatment of Incomplete or Inevitable Abortion
Intravenous infusion with physiologic saline solution, 500 mL, or 5% dextrose in physiologic saline solution to which 10 units of Oxytocin have been added should be infused at a rate of 20 to 40 drops/minute."


"Adverse Reactions
The following adverse reactions have been reported in the mother:


Anaphylactic reaction
Postpartum hemorrhage
Cardiac arrhythmia
Fatal afibrinogenemia
Nausea
Vomiting
Premature ventricular contractions
Pelvic hematoma"


hmm...

Edited by xEva, 24 January 2016 - 01:03 AM.


#23 sub7

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 09:35 PM

xEva,

 

"this makes an injectable dose of about 10 milligram"

 

Someone will have to chime in and compare the human dose to the extrapolated dose you have mentioned above. However, as far as I know, the 10 mg comes out to more than a thousand-fold compared to the regular human dosage. That is not at all safe very likely...



#24 xEva

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 01:34 AM

yeah I have reservations about it too, that's why I left that -? mark.

..though USP units are supposed to be milligrams (-?) and it comes in vials supposedly ready for injection with "Strength: 10 USP Units/mL" which I think is 10 mg per milliliter or cc. This does not look like a lot to me. ..though it's a hormone of course and in any case I would not do it daily. If I would do it, I would do it in short cycles, probably after a week-long fast with lotsa phys.activity.

#25 sub7

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 10:06 AM

xEva,

If I am not mistaken, Oxytocin for human use comes in vials that are around 10 iu per ml

here: http://www.drugs.com/pro/oxytocin.html

"Intramuscular Administration—1 mL (10 units) of Oxytocin can be given after delivery of the placenta."

In the thread I linked to above, it says that 1 mg of Oxytocin is 500 IU. Hence, 10 IU  = 0.02 mgs.

 

In other words, the amount used in humans is very very very very low compared to the human equivalent that we calculate from mouse experiments.

The discrepancy is so huge that using anything near the levels that is dosed to induce labor in women is negligible and will almost surely not result in anything at all in terms of muscle rejuvenation.

 

Someone please correct my math if I am messing it all u here...



#26 xEva

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 04:01 PM

I see what you mean
 

unit of oxytocin 

Term Definitions:
1. the oxytocic activity of 0.5 mg of the USP Posterior-pituitary Reference Standard; 1 mg of synthetic oxytocin corresponds to 500 IU.
 
 http://www.medilexic...ary.php?t=95735

 
Well, in that case I would play with the 5 IU/mL 1 mL vials ready for IM injection. From what I've read overdose is very unpleasant.

PS
Now I have doubts in the definition from medicaldictionary above. Everywhere I looked oxitocin vials are lableld as 5-10 IU or UPS units per mL. But according to that definition 1 USP unit is equivalent to 1000 IU -?? Maybe the internet reference that everyone's quoting is simply wrong?

Edited by xEva, 25 January 2016 - 04:12 PM.


#27 xEva

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 07:13 PM

I looked into this units issue and here is the scoop.

Nowadays synthetic oxytocin is used and clearly it should be expressed in mg. Turns out, "USP units"  is an atavism coming from the past when it was obtained from bovine pituitaries. According to this article, the standard was based on "acetone-extracted dry powder prepared from fresh, dissected bovine posterior pituitaries", and it was decided that a unit of "oxytocic substance" was contained in 0.5 mg of such powder. So, that's where 0.5 mg comes from.

Now the question is, how much of the peptide is actually contained in this 0.5 mg of dry bovine pituitary extract. 

In the US Pharmacopeia it says: "Oxytocin ... is prepared by synthesis or obtained from ... Its oxytocic activity is not less than 400 UPS Oxytocin Units per mg."  

 

This means that 1 UPS Oxytocin Unit = 0.0025 mg of synthetic oxytocin (= 2.5 micrograms). So, if there are 400-500 USP units per 1 mg of synthetic oxytocin, then 1 USP unit on a label  equals 2.0 - 2.5 micrograms of oxytocin.

 

 I also saw that this hormone is essentially the same in many mammals, with similar dosages per weight throughout. Also the standard of "oxytocic activity" nowadays is determined by the degree of contractions of isolated rat uteri -- and rats are not far removed from mice.  All this makes me question the dosage from the Conboy paper. Maybe they meant to write micrograms per kilo of a mouse when they wrote micrograms per gram -?

 


Edited by xEva, 25 January 2016 - 07:40 PM.


#28 sub7

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 08:55 PM

All this makes me question the dosage from the Conboy paper. Maybe they meant to write micrograms per kilo of a mouse when they wrote micrograms per gram -?

 

 

Indeed that is what comes to mind

Which leaves us pretty much nowhere...

However the bodybuilders who had injected this indeed used -if I recall correctly- somewhere around 0.2 miligrams or thereabouts; so basically very very huge amounts...

 

Also, just to make sure we don't loose sight of the forest whilst examining the individual trees:
What you have thus far found does not contradict Patrick Arnold's finding that 500 IU of Oxytocin = 1 miligram, right?

I want to make sure I am reading it correctly...



#29 xEva

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 10:05 PM

All this makes me question the dosage from the Conboy paper. Maybe they meant to write micrograms per kilo of a mouse when they wrote micrograms per gram -?

 
Indeed that is what comes to mind
Which leaves us pretty much nowhere...
However the bodybuilders who had injected this indeed used -if I recall correctly- somewhere around 0.2 miligrams or thereabouts; so basically very very huge amounts...

 
 
I just read the BB thread, and only the OP claimed to have used 0.2 mg per day -- but he sorta was unclear on details of that largest dose, 'cause, he said, he was stressed out at the time. The rest of the dosages posted by him and other participants ranged from 20 to 40-50 micrograms, which is from 10 to 20-25 IU (assuming 400 IU in a mg of oxytocin -- or 8 to 16-20 IU assuming 500 IU per mg of oxytocin). This is consistent with the 5-10 UI dosages per vial sold for human use.  (Multiple-use 100 mL vials with 20 IU per mL are sold for veterinary use). 
 

 

Also, just to make sure we don't loose sight of the forest whilst examining the individual trees:
What you have thus far found does not contradict Patrick Arnold's finding that 500 IU of Oxytocin = 1 miligram, right?
I want to make sure I am reading it correctly...


He quotes medical dictionary, same as I do, just a different site. And your understanding is not quite right. Rather, 1 mg of synthetic oxytocin corresponds to 400-500 IU of "oxytocic activity". Capisce?

Edited by xEva, 25 January 2016 - 10:24 PM.


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#30 sub7

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 09:46 AM

He quotes medical dictionary, same as I do, just a different site. And your understanding is not quite right. Rather, 1 mg of synthetic oxytocin corresponds to 400-500 IU of "oxytocic activity". Capisce?

 

 

Dumb it down some more for me please. Assume:

I go and buy Oxytocin for human use and on the label it says "10 iu per ml"

Doctor tells me to inject 0.1 mg

How many mls of the solution I have purchased will I inject?

 

(in making this calculation let us for now take the 450 IU as the mean of "1 mg of synthetic oxytocin corresponds to 400-500 IU of "oxytocic activity".)







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