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opiate withdrawal supplements

opiates withdrawals supplements

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#1 serp777

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 07:06 AM


Some i've been researching withdrawal supplements that work well. I first read about the Thomas recipe but that depended on benzos which i wouldn't want to use in theory.

 

Kratom has also seemed like a very good solution, but I found that it extends the withdrawal period and is just like tapering off with a low dose of your opiate of choice. The only thing that makes kratom slightly more effective is how miserable it is to take a large quantity of it so its harder to transfer an addiction.

 

My monkey found that taking acetominophen, magnesium, and l theanine also helps significantly. CDP choline makes it worse apparently but could help with cravings.

 

I've also heard that about 100mg of dextrometrophan can help with withdrawals but i would theoretically be reluctant because the syrup is nasty and dxm isn't great for your health

 

I'm looking for additional ideas on what can help with someone's opiate withdrawals .



#2 Galaxyshock

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 12:50 PM

Loperamide for physical symptoms - it's an opioid that doesn't affect CNS.

Gotu Kola - used for opium detox in Thailand, it's moodlifting, GABAergic anxiolytic, antagonizes CCK-B which causes opioid-tolerance and anxiety.

Agmatine - NMDA-antagonist, enhances endogenous opiate-activity, anti-depressive. Rather take this instead of DXM.


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#3 nowayout

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 05:41 PM

Also clonidine (the blood-pressure drug, not klonopin) for the agitation and restless legs.  


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#4 TheWorldAroundUs

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 04:41 AM

Look into D-Phenylalanine, it enhanced endogenous opiates by preventing breakdown. Also try to do some heavy cardio and/or have a lot of sex/orgasms as both these activities release a fair amount of endogenous opiates.


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#5 johnjuanb1

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 06:12 PM

These 4 are the best for coming off opiates. Taper down your dose slowly while adding the following and you'll be free in no time:
1. Kratom
2. Ashwagandha
3. Bacopa
4. Rhodiola rosea
The best kratom I know of comes from undergroundsupps.com. I got the other 3 herbs from the vitaminshoppe.

#6 nowayout

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 07:19 PM

These 4 are the best for coming off opiates. Taper down your dose slowly while adding the following and you'll be free in no time:
1. Kratom
2. Ashwagandha
3. Bacopa
4. Rhodiola rosea
The best kratom I know of comes from undergroundsupps.com. I got the other 3 herbs from the vitaminshoppe.

 

Doesn't kratom contain opioid-like substances itself?  Some people complain of bad withdrawal syndromes when stopping kratom.  I can see using it as a temporary replacement or a tapering drug when running out of your opioid prescription.  But otherwise you might as well taper the original opioid itself.

 

By the way, a slow taper is probably the best way of stopping opioids while avoiding withdrawal.  You may need a few months of gradual tapering if you have been on for a long time. 

 

 


Edited by nowayout, 11 February 2015 - 07:24 PM.


#7 johnjuanb1

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 08:48 PM


These 4 are the best for coming off opiates. Taper down your dose slowly while adding the following and you'll be free in no time:
1. Kratom
2. Ashwagandha
3. Bacopa
4. Rhodiola rosea
The best kratom I know of comes from undergroundsupps.com. I got the other 3 herbs from the vitaminshoppe.


Doesn't kratom contain opioid-like substances itself? Some people complain of bad withdrawal syndromes when stopping kratom. I can see using it as a temporary replacement or a tapering drug when running out of your opioid prescription. But otherwise you might as well taper the original opioid itself.

By the way, a slow taper is probably the best way of stopping opioids while avoiding withdrawal. You may need a few months of gradual tapering if you have been on for a long time.
Kratom does work off the mu-opiate receptor but it is nothing like an opiate in terms of withdrawals, not even close. I have helped many online friends get off Oxycotin, suboxones, and various pain killers with the use of kratom. Kratom contains around 25 different alkyloids, some that relieve anxiety , some that reduce pain, some that increase energy. Long term high dose kratom will lead to withdrawal symptoms to some extent but they are not bad, nothing like the opiates mentioned above. If you use kratom a few days a week there is no down side . It actually is incredible for over health. Kratom has antiviral and antibacterial properties that keep one from never catching a cold. Kratom has 20 times the antioxidants of green tea/EGCG.
I am a big believer in kratom. It has helped me over come long term depression and social anxiety. But like anything, responsible use is best, meaning only a few times a week.

#8 serp777

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 04:30 AM

Yeah I started using Kratom and its fantastic, albeit a little hard to consume. Clonidine has also been very effective.

 

This combination seemed so much better than the bupenorphine/naloxone alternative. And kratom still provides a buzz. Are there any kratom potentiators? Would Agmatine or Gotu Kola be stackable and reduce the amount needed for effects?

 

Thanks for everyone's input so far.



#9 nowayout

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 04:47 PM

Kratom does work off the mu-opiate receptor but it is nothing like an opiate in terms of withdrawals, not even close.

I am a big believer in kratom. It has helped me over come long term depression and social anxiety. But like anything, responsible use is best, meaning only a few times a week.

 

 

Well, have you ever stopped it completely?  If you still use it "a few times a week" then you wouldn't really expect withdrawal.  You can use oxycontin a few times a week also without much withdrawal. 

 

I am really skeptical about every new mythical mu-agonist that supposedly doesn't cause withdrawal when stopped.  They used to say precisely that about Tramadol, which turns out to have one of the worst withdrawal syndromes of all the opioids.  The same for buprenorphine, the suppsedly harmless maintenance drug (now also a street drug) that nobody seems to be able to quit.  
 


YAnd kratom still provides a buzz. Are there any kratom potentiators? Would Agmatine or Gotu Kola be stackable and reduce the amount needed for effects?

 

See what is happening here?  Typical addictive behavior. I rest my case. 


Edited by nowayout, 12 February 2015 - 04:51 PM.


#10 Galaxyshock

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 04:54 PM

Tianeptine might be the cleanest mu-agonist, it's also glutamatergic and sharpens you up.



#11 serp777

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 06:49 PM

 

Kratom does work off the mu-opiate receptor but it is nothing like an opiate in terms of withdrawals, not even close.

I am a big believer in kratom. It has helped me over come long term depression and social anxiety. But like anything, responsible use is best, meaning only a few times a week.

 

 

Well, have you ever stopped it completely?  If you still use it "a few times a week" then you wouldn't really expect withdrawal.  You can use oxycontin a few times a week also without much withdrawal. 

 

I am really skeptical about every new mythical mu-agonist that supposedly doesn't cause withdrawal when stopped.  They used to say precisely that about Tramadol, which turns out to have one of the worst withdrawal syndromes of all the opioids.  The same for buprenorphine, the suppsedly harmless maintenance drug (now also a street drug) that nobody seems to be able to quit.  
 


YAnd kratom still provides a buzz. Are there any kratom potentiators? Would Agmatine or Gotu Kola be stackable and reduce the amount needed for effects?

 

See what is happening here?  Typical addictive behavior. I rest my case. 

 

 

What is your case? That I am an addict and that kratom is bad? I would have thought opiate withdrawal would have given away the addiction.

 

At least thanks to opiates I don't drink or smoke. Doing kratom 3-4 times a week is better than drinking or smoking and its better than theoretically trying to get prescription drugs illegally. When i do it for four days in a row, trust me the withdrawals are not even close to as severe as something stronger.

 

Being sober all the time is boring. Maybe that's because I have an addictive personality but I would hate being sober 24/7. Opiates, specifically kratom, seem like the best and relatively healthiest option.


Edited by serp777, 12 February 2015 - 06:50 PM.


#12 johnjuanb1

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 09:13 PM


Kratom does work off the mu-opiate receptor but it is nothing like an opiate in terms of withdrawals, not even close.
I am a big believer in kratom. It has helped me over come long term depression and social anxiety. But like anything, responsible use is best, meaning only a few times a week.


Well, have you ever stopped it completely? If you still use it "a few times a week" then you wouldn't really expect withdrawal. You can use oxycontin a few times a week also without much withdrawal.

I am really skeptical about every new mythical mu-agonist that supposedly doesn't cause withdrawal when stopped. They used to say precisely that about Tramadol, which turns out to have one of the worst withdrawal syndromes of all the opioids. The same for buprenorphine, the suppsedly harmless maintenance drug (now also a street drug) that nobody seems to be able to quit.

YAnd kratom still provides a buzz. Are there any kratom potentiators? Would Agmatine or Gotu Kola be stackable and reduce the amount needed for effects?


See what is happening here? Typical addictive behavior. I rest my case.
You are correct. Kratom does have some withdrawal symptoms. For me, I choose to accept that reality. Kratom helped me overcome persistent depression and anxiety. I have a much better quality of life now and look forward to what each day brings. Before kratom I was very unhappy.

#13 johnjuanb1

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 09:18 PM

Tianeptine might be the cleanest mu-agonist, it's also glutamatergic and sharpens you up.

Is Tianeptine a legal herb you can get at a health food store?

#14 nowayout

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Posted 13 February 2015 - 02:18 PM

 

 

Kratom does work off the mu-opiate receptor but it is nothing like an opiate in terms of withdrawals, not even close.

I am a big believer in kratom. It has helped me over come long term depression and social anxiety. But like anything, responsible use is best, meaning only a few times a week.

 

 

Well, have you ever stopped it completely?  If you still use it "a few times a week" then you wouldn't really expect withdrawal.  You can use oxycontin a few times a week also without much withdrawal. 

 

I am really skeptical about every new mythical mu-agonist that supposedly doesn't cause withdrawal when stopped.  They used to say precisely that about Tramadol, which turns out to have one of the worst withdrawal syndromes of all the opioids.  The same for buprenorphine, the suppsedly harmless maintenance drug (now also a street drug) that nobody seems to be able to quit.  
 


YAnd kratom still provides a buzz. Are there any kratom potentiators? Would Agmatine or Gotu Kola be stackable and reduce the amount needed for effects?

 

See what is happening here?  Typical addictive behavior. I rest my case. 

 

 

What is your case? That I am an addict and that kratom is bad? I would have thought opiate withdrawal would have given away the addiction.

 

 

No, that was not my point.  My point was that I thought the thread was asking for advice on getting off opioids.  If what you are interested in is instead replacing one opioid with another (more easily available one in the case of Kratom), maybe you should have said so.  I wasn't trying to be judgmental about opioid use.  However, I was pointing out that chasing the buzz with ever increasing amounts of opioids (or "potentiatiors") is a bad sign - as you know, the buzz fades, you can never really recreate it even when you increase the amounts of the substance to eventually toxic levels (even "natural" herbs are eventually toxic), you end up more and more dependent and more and more desperate when you run out, being away from your house and travel become fraught with limitations, etc., etc.

 

Also, there is a difference between dependency and addiction.  I had thought the thread was about getting over dependency.  It turns out it is about how to continue an addiction.  For that you may get better information on bluelight.   
 



#15 serp777

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Posted 13 February 2015 - 11:40 PM

 

 

 

Kratom does work off the mu-opiate receptor but it is nothing like an opiate in terms of withdrawals, not even close.

I am a big believer in kratom. It has helped me over come long term depression and social anxiety. But like anything, responsible use is best, meaning only a few times a week.

 

 

Well, have you ever stopped it completely?  If you still use it "a few times a week" then you wouldn't really expect withdrawal.  You can use oxycontin a few times a week also without much withdrawal. 

 

I am really skeptical about every new mythical mu-agonist that supposedly doesn't cause withdrawal when stopped.  They used to say precisely that about Tramadol, which turns out to have one of the worst withdrawal syndromes of all the opioids.  The same for buprenorphine, the suppsedly harmless maintenance drug (now also a street drug) that nobody seems to be able to quit.  
 


YAnd kratom still provides a buzz. Are there any kratom potentiators? Would Agmatine or Gotu Kola be stackable and reduce the amount needed for effects?

 

See what is happening here?  Typical addictive behavior. I rest my case. 

 

 

What is your case? That I am an addict and that kratom is bad? I would have thought opiate withdrawal would have given away the addiction.

 

 

No, that was not my point.  My point was that I thought the thread was asking for advice on getting off opioids.  If what you are interested in is instead replacing one opioid with another (more easily available one in the case of Kratom), maybe you should have said so.  I wasn't trying to be judgmental about opioid use.  However, I was pointing out that chasing the buzz with ever increasing amounts of opioids (or "potentiatiors") is a bad sign - as you know, the buzz fades, you can never really recreate it even when you increase the amounts of the substance to eventually toxic levels (even "natural" herbs are eventually toxic), you end up more and more dependent and more and more desperate when you run out, being away from your house and travel become fraught with limitations, etc., etc.

 

Also, there is a difference between dependency and addiction.  I had thought the thread was about getting over dependency.  It turns out it is about how to continue an addiction.  For that you may get better information on bluelight.   
 

 

No offense but the topic is opiate withdrawal supplements and not supplements to stop using opiates altogether. Although I appreciate your input, I am not looking to give up opiates entirely, i'd just like to prevent withdrawals mostly and stop from using so much that i develop withdrawals in the first place.

 

Like i said I don't think occasional usage is that bad, albeit slightly risky because it does entail the possibility for addiction and then withdrawal. I think its superior to drinking and or smoking at least and it helps me to avoid those because it solves the problem of being sober for too long. I think I have a fundamentally predisposed genome that makes me like drugs in general too much--i generally dislike sobriety, particularly for long periods of time. This is the healthiest option and anything that can the amount I have to take through potentiation is ideal.

 



#16 maxwatt

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 03:00 AM

William Burroughs recommended apomorphine, but he may have been mistaken.  He also described junkies using marijuana to taper. 


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#17 fntms

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 09:09 AM

Kratom is cardiotoxic apparently... (cf pubmed).

#18 serp777

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:22 PM

Kratom is cardiotoxic apparently... (cf pubmed).

 

This is from a sub reddit on the same topic you're talking about

Multiple poisoning and fatal cases involving Kratom and Mitragynine have been reported. Unfortunately the underlying causes of these adverse reactions remain unclear. Cases of severe toxicity characterized by seizure were reported on Kratom use together with modafinil and Datura stramonium. [6], [15] Drug toxicity death involving Mitragynine has been reported in Sweden in 9 cases over a 1-year time period. [16] The presence of both Mitragynine and O-desmethyltramadol (the active metabolite of tramadol) with the former between 0.05∼0.45 µ (were confirmed in postmortem blood samples. Another fatal case was also attributed to probable Kratom toxicity [23] with presence of benzodiazepines and blood level of Mitragynine at 0.60 mg/L (or 1.51 µa).

"Yeah, it seems like they're only claiming toxicity in kratom through its co-administration of other drugs - so looking at how its association in these cases turns them poisonous / fatal. But it doesn't really seem like they get very far even with taking that big stretch.

Honestly, I was pretty surprised to check and see that this study was done so recently; my initial impression of this is just to be not very impressed at all. Maybe there's some more subtle findings in the details here that can have implications for further research later on or something."

 

Also there have been studies of people who take high doses of kratom in thailand and they are MUCH safer than if they were alcoholics. Its been used in thailand (or is it taiwan?) for hundreds of years to help people with opium addictions. So if it is cardiotoxic then it is much less so than alcohol and only significant when combined with other substances. Apparent cases of drug toxicity were observed when kratom was combined with other drugs like tramadol.

 

There isn't sufficient evidence of any problems when kratom is taken by itself under normal healthy conditions.

 

http://entheology.co...dical-research/


William Burroughs recommended apomorphine, but he may have been mistaken.  He also described junkies using marijuana to taper. 

 

Thank you for the suggestion. Are you saying that mariajuana is a partially effective substitute to mitigate symptoms and avoid the extreme cravings associated with relentless sobriety when withdrawing?



#19 fntms

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 04:11 PM

I was referring to this article:


1. PLoS One. 2014 Dec 23;9(12):e115648. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0115648. eCollection 2014.

Evaluation of the cardiotoxicity of mitragynine and its analogues using human induced pluripotent stem cell-derived cardiomyocytes.

Lu J(1), Wei H(2), Wu J(1), Jamil MF(3), Tan ML(4), Adenan MI(5), Wong P(2), Shim W(2).

Author information: (1)National Heart Research Institute Singapore, National Heart Centre Singapore, Singapore, Republic of Singapore. (2)National Heart Research Institute Singapore, National Heart Centre Singapore, Singapore, Republic of Singapore; Cardiovascular & Metabolic Disorders [...]

INTRODUCTION: Mitragynine is a major bioactive compound of Kratom, which is derived from the leave extracts of Mitragyna speciosa Korth or Mitragyna speciosa (M. speciosa), a medicinal plant from South East Asia used legally in many countries as stimulant with opioid-like effects for the treatment of chronic pain and opioid-withdrawal symptoms. Fatal incidents with Mitragynine have been associated with cardiac arrest. In this study, we determined the cardiotoxicity of Mitragynine and other chemical constituents isolated using human induced pluripotent stem cell-derived cardiomyocytes (hiPSC-CMs). METHODS AND RESULTS: The rapid delayed rectifier potassium current (IKr), L-type Ca2+ current (ICa,L) and action potential duration (APD) were measured by whole cell patch-clamp. The expression of KCNH2 and cytotoxicity was determined by real-time PCR and Caspase activity measurements. After significant IKr suppression by Mitragynine (10 µM) was confirmed in hERG-HEK cells, we systematically examined the effects of Mitragynine and other chemical constituents in hiPSC-CMs. Mitragynine, Paynantheine, Speciogynine and Speciociliatine, dosage-dependently (0.1∼100 µM) suppressed IKr in hiPSC-CMs by 67%∼84% with IC50 ranged from 0.91 to 2.47 µM. Moreover, Mitragynine (10 µM) significantly prolonged APD at 50 and 90% repolarization (APD50 and APD90) (439.0±11.6 vs. 585.2±45.5 ms and 536.0±22.6 vs. 705.9±46.1 ms, respectively) and induced arrhythmia, without altering the L-type Ca2+ current. Neither the expression, and intracellular distribution of KCNH2/Kv11.1, nor the Caspase 3 activity were significantly affected by Mitragynine. CONCLUSIONS: Our study indicates that Mitragynine and its analogues may potentiate Torsade de Pointes through inhibition of IKr in human cardiomyocytes.

PMCID: PMC4275233 PMID: 25535742 [PubMed - in process]

#20 maxwatt

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 02:59 AM


William Burroughs recommended apomorphine, but he may have been mistaken.  He also described junkies using marijuana to taper. 

 

Thank you for the suggestion. Are you saying that mariajuana is a partially effective substitute to mitigate symptoms and avoid the extreme cravings associated with relentless sobriety when withdrawing?

 

 

I believe it is, the pharmacological effects should satisfy the physiological deficiencies brought about by opiate withdrawal.  Though to my way of thinking, marijuana may well induce a heightened state of sobriety.  Reality is a crutch...



#21 nowayout

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 05:21 PM


No offense but the topic is opiate withdrawal supplements and not supplements to stop using opiates altogether. Although I appreciate your input, I am not looking to give up opiates entirely, i'd just like to prevent withdrawals mostly and stop from using so much that i develop withdrawals in the first place.

 

Like i said I don't think occasional usage is that bad, albeit slightly risky because it does entail the possibility for addiction and then withdrawal. I think its superior to drinking and or smoking at least and it helps me to avoid those because it solves the problem of being sober for too long.

 

Okay.  I am talking from a place of dependence on a prescription opioid for a rheumatic condition, so I understand maybe a bit too well.  I wish I could take the drug as needed only, but that is impossible due to withdrawal, forcing me to take it always.  I also wish I could still feel the buzz, since opioids are the only class of drugs that made me feel really good - although it would be more accurate to say they (used to) make me feel "normal," as in the way I felt routinely when I was a kid.  (Alcohol and stimulants do absolutely nothing for me.)   However, the feel-good from opioids faded over time and currently I am unable to reproduce it even by taking more, and none of the common remedies help for this.  So I have given up on chasing the high, and I don't exceed my prescription.

 

IME weed isn't great for withdrawal - it just breaks down my willpower so I take more opioids.   

 



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#22 johnjuanb1

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 10:15 PM

I still say kratom is the best bet to use for coming off opiate addiction. Kratom is not an opiate even though it works off two opiate receptors. I have helped several people get off opiates and suboxone with the use of horned Maeng Da kratom in the day time, and red vein Thai kratom in the evening. It takes around ten days to be free from addiction using kratom as the tool.





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