17 replies to this topic

[AlexCanada]

My estrogen is very low and testosterone fairly low. It is effecting my mood and motivation severely.

 

I have purchased some Tongkat Ali for testosterone but need some options for estrogen. Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

I been told to look into Motherwort. Anything else?

 

 

I used to take eleuthero root ginseng. I noticibly looked healthier and felt better but it constantly dropped my blood sugar, and gave me horrendous neck artery pains (anyone know why this happens?).  Other forms of ginseng have similar blood sugar effects and often make me extremely sleepy. 

 

What common supplements and herbals would be good to try? 

 

And for testosterone is there any consensus as to how to best take TongKat Ali and D-Aspartic Acid? Morning or night? Before bed or upon waking. With food or without? 

[pamojja]

 

I used to take eleuthero root ginseng. I noticibly looked healthier and felt better but it constantly dropped my blood sugar, and gave me horrendous neck artery pains (anyone know why this happens?).

 

Due to a chronic magnesium deficiency I got terrible muscle cramps mostly in my neck (also asked my internist if arteries can cramp, because that's where these cramps seemed to be - which he denied, but in the many muscles around there..). Titrating up to 2 g/d of Mg in my case was necessary to get rid of these painful cramps.

 

My Testosterone, free (~5 pg/ml) and total (~300 ng/dl), is deficient too. Estrogen was only once below detection levels, otherwise tent to rise too high very fast. So I wouldn't try to raise estrogen with only a once-time lab result. And increasing testosterone only a bit might spill over to too much estrogens very fast.

 

How is your RBC-Magnesium?

Edited by pamojja, 08 May 2015 - 01:10 PM.

[nowayout]

This study claims that DAA is probably a waste of money, at least for men who fit the profile. 

 

 

 

Nutr Res. 2013 Oct;33(10):803-10. doi: 10.1016/j.nutres.2013.07.010. Epub 2013 Aug 15.

D-aspartic acid supplementation combined with 28 days of heavy resistance training has no effect on body composition, muscle strength, and serum hormones associated with the hypothalamo-pituitary-gonadal axis in resistance-trained men.

Willoughby DS¹, Leutholtz B.

Author information

Abstract

It was hypothesized that D-aspartic acid (D-ASP) supplementation would not increase endogenous testosterone levels or improve muscular performance associated with resistance training. Therefore, body composition, muscle strength, and serum hormone levels associated with the hypothalamo-pituitary-gonadal axis were studied after 28 days of resistance training and D-ASP supplementation. Resistance-trained men resistance trained 4 times/wk for 28 days while orally ingesting either 3 g of placebo or 3 g of D-ASP. Data were analyzed with 2 × 2 analysis of variance (P < .05). Before and after resistance training and supplementation, body composition and muscle strength, serum gonadal hormones, and serum D-ASP and d-aspartate oxidase (DDO) were determined. Body composition and muscle strength were significantly increased in both groups in response to resistance training (P < .05) but not different from one another (P > .05). Total and free testosterone, luteinizing hormone, gonadotropin-releasing hormone, and estradiol were unchanged with resistance training and D-ASP supplementation (P > .05). For serum D-ASP and DDO, D-ASP resulted in a slight increase compared with baseline levels (P > .05). For the D-ASP group, the levels of serum DDO were significantly increased compared with placebo (P < .05). The gonadal hormones were unaffected by 28 days of D-ASP supplementation and not associated with the observed increases in muscle strength and mass. Therefore, at the dose provided, D-ASP supplementation is ineffective in up-regulating the activity of the hypothalamo-pituitary-gonadal axis and has no anabolic or ergogenic effects in skeletal muscle.

 

[nowayout]

This study claims that DAA might actually decrease testosterone:

 

 

Three and six grams supplementation of d-aspartic acid in resistance trained men

Geoffrey W Melville^*, Jason C Siegler and Paul WM Marshall

•  

Abstract Background

Although abundant research has investigated the hormonal effects of d-aspartic acid in rat models, to date there is limited research on humans. Previous research has demonstrated increased total testosterone levels in sedentary men and no significant changes in hormonal levels in resistance trained men. It was hypothesised that a higher dosage may be required for experienced lifters, thus this study investigated the effects of two different dosages of d-aspartic acid on basal hormonal levels in resistance trained men and explored responsiveness to d-aspartic acid based on initial testosterone levels.

Methods

Twenty-four males, with a minimum of two years’ experience in resistance training, (age, 24.5 ± 3.2 y; training experience, 3.4 ± 1.4 y; height, 178.5 ± 6.5 cm; weight, 84.7 ± 7.2 kg; bench press 1-RM, 105.3 ± 15.2 kg) were randomised into one of three groups: 6 g.d⁻¹ plain flour (D0); 3 g.d⁻¹ of d-aspartic acid (D3); and 6 g.d⁻¹ of d-aspartic acid (D6). Participants performed a two-week washout period, training four days per week. This continued through the experimental period (14 days), with participants consuming the supplement in the morning. Serum was analysed for levels of testosterone, estradiol, sex hormone binding globulin, albumin and free testosterone was determined by calculation.

Results

D-aspartic acid supplementation revealed no main effect for group in: estradiol; sex-hormone-binding-globulin; and albumin. Total testosterone was significantly reduced in D6 (P = 0.03). Analysis of free testosterone showed that D6 was significantly reduced as compared to D0 (P = 0.005), but not significantly different to D3. Analysis did not reveal any significant differences between D3 and D0. No significant correlation between initial total testosterone levels and responsiveness to d-aspartic acid was observed (r = 0.10, P = 0.70).

Conclusions

The present study demonstrated that a daily dose of six grams of d-aspartic acid decreased levels of total testosterone and free testosterone (D6), without any concurrent change in other hormones measured. Three grams of d-aspartic acid had no significant effect on either testosterone markers. It is currently unknown what effect this reduction in testosterone will have on strength and hypertrophy gains.

 

Edited by nowayout, 08 May 2015 - 05:03 PM.

[Area-1255]

If your testosterone is low, your estrogen will likely be low, in men..estrogen comes from testosterone..so if you are suffering from secondary hypogonadism, you need not worry about estrogen and instead rely SOLELY on raising LHRH - and more importantly, you want to know WHY your sex hormones are low!!

 

Common reasons for decreased sex hormones.

 

• High prolactin; this will lead to suppression of both test and estrogen. 
• SSRI, Benzo use, opiate use.
• Use of 5-HTP, over long period of time especially.
• Testicular injury...
• Vericocele or other procedures.
• Chronic stress.
• Neuronal dysfunction of pituitary undersaturation.

 

Tongkat ali is a good place to start but make sure all of the above are in check or not involved. If so, deal with each factor prominently, and by priority in which it's relevance is likely to be involved.

 

Additionally, maca root may be beneficial, and if you are going to use DAA, use it with sarcosine...as in e-Pharm Test Force II. (PA is a good guy and certified organic chemist)

 

To clarify, having LOW TEST AND LOW E2 is totally different than the reading of HIGH E2 AND LOW TEST, high estrogen can cause hypogonadism so if you have high body fat or gynecomastia then it is possible you've had high estro for a while and it burned out your test levels, although you would still see an out of balance ratio in that case with estro above test likely..depending on how many months or years this has been going on.

 

Edited by Area-1255, 08 May 2015 - 09:08 PM.

[nowayout]

Common reasons for decreased sex hormones.

• SSRI

 

So you have a reference for SSRI dysregulating sex hormones?  Just curious - I know they have sexual side effects, but was under the impression that these weren't necessarily related to sex hormone changes? 

[Area-1255]

 

Common reasons for decreased sex hormones.

• SSRI

 

So you have a reference for SSRI dysregulating sex hormones?  Just curious - I know they have sexual side effects, but was under the impression that these weren't necessarily related to sex hormone changes? 

 

http://www.priory.com/psych/sexdys.htm

http://link.springer...200831100-00125

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2376090/

http://www.gpnoteboo...fm?ID=302383170

[AlexCanada]

If your testosterone is low, your estrogen will likely be low, in men..estrogen comes from testosterone..so if you are suffering from secondary hypogonadism, you need not worry about estrogen and instead rely SOLELY on raising LHRH - and more importantly, you want to know WHY your sex hormones are low!!

 

Common reasons for decreased sex hormones.

 

• High prolactin; this will lead to suppression of both test and estrogen. 
• SSRI, Benzo use, opiate use.
• Use of 5-HTP, over long period of time especially.
• Testicular injury...
• Vericocele or other procedures.
• Chronic stress.
• Neuronal dysfunction of pituitary undersaturation.

 

Tongkat ali is a good place to start but make sure all of the above are in check or not involved. If so, deal with each factor prominently, and by priority in which it's relevance is likely to be involved.

 

Additionally, maca root may be beneficial, and if you are going to use DAA, use it with sarcosine...as in e-Pharm Test Force II. (PA is a good guy and certified organic chemist)

 

To clarify, having LOW TEST AND LOW E2 is totally different than the reading of HIGH E2 AND LOW TEST, high estrogen can cause hypogonadism so if you have high body fat or gynecomastia then it is possible you've had high estro for a while and it burned out your test levels, although you would still see an out of balance ratio in that case with estro above test likely..depending on how many months or years this has been going on.

 

I usually am not on any SSRIs. I have had low hormones suspected for nearly a decade but a whole host of horrendous problems started 2 years ago with some extreme adrenal exhaustion. Valium I been withdrawling from 5mg down to 1.2mg past 3 years. 

Some recent results

 

Free Testosterone is 28 (low)              range:     31 -94 pmol/L

ACTH 2                   <10 pmol/L

Cortisol AM 191          range:   170-540nmol/L                           -other times turned out 70 and another time 200, 

Total testosterone 12.6            range:  7.6- 31.4 nmol/L    

LH  2 (possibly low)              2-9 IU/L

FSH  4                            2-12 IU/L

Prolactin  8             <18ug/l   

Norepinephrine  1.2          0.8-3.4 nmol/L

Epinephrine <0.1                   <0.8 nmol/L

Estradiol  57              <157 pmol/L

 

Is that prolactin abnormal?   Anything else give any warning signs? Luteinizing hormone may be low.

 

 

• Neuronal dysfunction of pituitary undersaturation.

I consider these to be the most likely scenarios aside from candida and something wrong in my gut. I have had various symptoms of IBS and digestive issues and harsh reactions to various foods. I am no longer able to tolerate most fruits because they dry up my skin and make my body have intense chills.  And yes I have had immense stress and extreme inability to handle stress the past 2 years. Some improvement in this past month but still tremendously long way to go. Intense negative adrenaline fight or flight sensations would manifest very frequently to daily situations. 

 

Since two years ago when I had the severe adrenal exhaustion issues and was dealing with intense valium withdrawl I also began to look extremely unhealthy but Resveratrol was taken at that time. My skin since then is more yellow, dark circles are around my eyes, and hormonally I just look very off and deficient. 3 years ago I looked notably more attractive and healthier.   I had some damage done to me btw from Resveratrol which gave me strong joint pains, some permanent loss of feeling to the tip of one of my fingers, dried up my skin immensely and gave me collagen loss on my face which caused some extreme wrinkles around my eyes. My laugh lines are horrendously pronounced from Resveratrol damage. 

 

 

                       

Edited by AlexCanada, 09 May 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Boron may help:  http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9197924

[nowayout]

 

 

Common reasons for decreased sex hormones.

• SSRI

 

So you have a reference for SSRI dysregulating sex hormones?  Just curious - I know they have sexual side effects, but was under the impression that these weren't necessarily related to sex hormone changes? 

 

http://www.priory.com/psych/sexdys.htm

http://link.springer...200831100-00125

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2376090/

http://www.gpnoteboo...fm?ID=302383170

 

 

Thanks. 

 

The study on testosterone levels is very small, considered patients on a number of different antidepressants, and had no placebo group, so does not appear to be able to distinguish whether low testosterone was related to SSRIs or other factors.  For example, the low testosterone could have been related to the depression itself and could have preceded SSRI use for all we know.

 

The other studies consider whether SSRI (and AD use in general) use increase prolactin.  Much of the research quoted was done on women, not men, and studies appear to show conflicting results in this regard.  From the study above that is at the NIH link:

 

 

However, SSRI have been reported to be the most frequent cause of drug-induced hyperprolactinemia. Among those, sertraline appears to be the most frequent cause of sustained hyperprolactinemia, but also fluoxetine and paroxetine may induce pathologic and symptomatic increases in prolactin levels. Most of the other anti-depressants do not induce hyperprolactinemia or induce only transient or within normal range variations with no or little clinical relevance.

 

This should be interpreted carfully, though - this statement comes from a survey of people who had hyperprolactinaemia from various drugs.   But this can be true and still be consistent with hyperprolactinaemia affecting only a small number of patients on SSRIs.  Indeed, the same paper states:

 

 

SSRI were reported to be the most frequent cause of drug-induced hyperprolactinemia (Cohen and Davies 1998), but other data do not confirm this conclusion. SSRI actually cause little, if any, increase in prolactin secretion. Several uncontrolled studies assessed prolactin rise during SSRI treatment, though only paroxetine-treated patients exhibited statistically significant elevations, while all subjects on fluoxetine, sertraline or venlafaxine showed not significant elevations of basal prolactin.

 

Edited by nowayout, 09 May 2015 - 08:22 PM.

[nowayout]

Boron may help:  http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9197924

 

Interesting.  10 mg Boron a day increased estradiol by 50% in healthy males.  Since my estradiol tends high, this had me worried for a moment regarding the Boron in my multivitamin.  But 10 mg is a lot of Boron, though - 66 times the amount in my multi. 
 

Oral DHEA will raise estradiol in many men who take it.  But this also tends to lower testosterone via the negative HPTA feedback loop, so it is probably not recommended for men whose testosterone is lowish already. 

[Area-1255]

Looking at this more, it appears it could have been from Valium and the long-term use of, you have blood results typical of those on benzo's where low cortisol and ACTH is seen. Your adrenaline hormones are severed which is another sign of nervous system depression from benzo's, which case you are getting less glutamate and cAMP which is leading to less testosterone..so Test Force II + Ginkgo biloba seems like a good bet. Test Force II contains both d-aspartic acid and sarcosine, which ensures optimal NMDA activity, whereas ginkgo can help rejuvenate the HPG axis by modulating GABA-A channels and facilitating dopaminergic activity. 

 

 

I usually am not on any SSRIs. I have had low hormones suspected for nearly a decade but a whole host of horrendous problems started 2 years ago with some extreme adrenal exhaustion. Valium I been withdrawling from 5mg down to 1.2mg past 3 years. 

Some recent results

 

Free Testosterone is 28 (low)              range:     31 -94 pmol/L

ACTH 2                   <10 pmol/L

Cortisol AM 191          range:   170-540nmol/L                           -other times turned out 70 and another time 200, 

Total testosterone 12.6            range:  7.6- 31.4 nmol/L    

LH  2 (possibly low)              2-9 IU/L

FSH  4                            2-12 IU/L

Prolactin  8             <18ug/l   

Norepinephrine  1.2          0.8-3.4 nmol/L

Epinephrine <0.1                   <0.8 nmol/L

Estradiol  57              <157 pmol/L

 

Is that prolactin abnormal?   Anything else give any warning signs? Luteinizing hormone may be low.

 

[AlexCanada]

I forgot to post this but these are recent results:

 

May 25th 2015 blood test:            

Testosterone Total:     2.3  nmol/L               range:    8 - 32

SHBG     34 nmol/L                      range:   11-78

Testosterone, Bioavailable (calc):        1.0 nmol/L         range:  4-17

Estradiol:              <37    pmol/L                 range:   40-162 

 

Needless to say I have not been feeling good.   I might try to see a walk-in clinic doctor since this is clearly clinical hypoagonadism . if not then hopefully they will know who to refer me to.  My energy, motivation, mood, memory, and cognition are so incredibly poor. It really is difficult to function each day. 

[AlexCanada]

Someone stated Taineptine was good for his PAWS. I may be inclined to agree after some further testing. I previously was having mixed results but I think it was just interactions with Dendrobium at the time and possibly other substances.  I been having much more positive results from Taineptine now when Dendrobium and NSI-189 are out of the picture. Creepy mood effects are so thus far gone.

 

Lower anx state, more peaceful, even bit pleasant. Combined with gabapentin it seems to have added benefit. 

 

Too bad I still have fairly poor motivation and anhedonia. Though with 50mg rhodiola added yesterday evening (with Taineptine 5mg + 100mg gabapentin) I was the most productive that I have been in weeks.  I even felt if things continue to improve that I may be able to even visit a friend this summer.    And after a really worthless day today I am finally starting to feel better after Taineptine + gabapentin dosing.  I may need to stick with this and see what happens. Cautiously optimistic!    Do need to really try to work on mental clarity. Yesterday night/morning several hours after Taineptine I noticed more clever thoughts and insights that I would not have realized under previous circumstances.  Really improved my problem solving skills. Rhodiola though was a large factor behind the motivation and mental stimulation, I could tell due to the bit uncomfortable adren effects and feelings in my chest.  I felt burned out a bit by mid afternoon. Rhodiola residual effects lasted nearly 22 hours. It was even hard to sleep. I was even motivated enough to see a walk-in clinic doctor regarding fungal infection on certain parts of my body and also show them my Testosterone results. For me that was pretty big as I normally feel very defeated at the mere thought of seeing a doctor and yet I was able to go out there and handle it effectively enough.  

[AlexCanada]

 

Looking at this more, it appears it could have been from Valium and the long-term use of, you have blood results typical of those on benzo's where low cortisol and ACTH is seen. Your adrenaline hormones are severed which is another sign of nervous system depression from benzo's, which case you are getting less glutamate and cAMP which is leading to less testosterone..so Test Force II + Ginkgo biloba seems like a good bet. Test Force II contains both d-aspartic acid and sarcosine, which ensures optimal NMDA activity, whereas ginkgo can help rejuvenate the HPG axis by modulating GABA-A channels and facilitating dopaminergic activity. 

 

 

I usually am not on any SSRIs. I have had low hormones suspected for nearly a decade but a whole host of horrendous problems started 2 years ago with some extreme adrenal exhaustion. Valium I been withdrawling from 5mg down to 1.2mg past 3 years. 

Some recent results

 

Free Testosterone is 28 (low)              range:     31 -94 pmol/L

ACTH 2                   <10 pmol/L

Cortisol AM 191          range:   170-540nmol/L                           -other times turned out 70 and another time 200, 

Total testosterone 12.6            range:  7.6- 31.4 nmol/L    

LH  2 (possibly low)              2-9 IU/L

FSH  4                            2-12 IU/L

Prolactin  8             <18ug/l   

Norepinephrine  1.2          0.8-3.4 nmol/L

Epinephrine <0.1                   <0.8 nmol/L

Estradiol  57              <157 pmol/L

 

Is that prolactin abnormal?   Anything else give any warning signs? Luteinizing hormone may be low.

 

 

Ginkgo has at times given me some very clear benefits but seem to marginalize after frequent use. Usually an hour after dosing 40-60mg I feel a positive buzz and enhanced sensory perception. Able to feel more engaged if I watched a tv show. That peak lasts about 1.5 hours only unfortunately and often throughout I feel very cognitively impaired oddly enough. Depending on brand and dose I would have these sensations of blood moving through my head and just not easy to think. Even if I wanted to engage with someone I would be in a bit of a incompetent stupor but wow, look at those colors in that tv show! It also feels that the longer I take ginkgo the worse I ended up feeling oddly but short term use would bring about a reliable buzz usually and short term boost in Libido and range of sexual desires.  The eventual worsening of mood might be from the gaba-antagonism. Not sure. I am long withdrawing from Valium.                    I used to be able to take ginkgo gel caps very reliably with good benefit consistently years ago but I cannot find that specific brand anymore.    I may still try some ginkgo every few days for testosterone benefit. Any general precautions for ginkgo?  I know I can't take ginkgo together with magnesium for instance otherwise there will be blood in my stools.  

 

Sarcosine I have on me. I need to try it again sometime. There was something I read which discouraged me from taking it but I will reevaluate. Are sarcosine benefits generally swift? 

Edited by AlexCanada, 03 June 2015 - 04:42 AM.

[AlexCanada]

I'm seeing an Endo on thursday.  He might finally prescribe me testosterone. 

 

I posted about it here:

 

http://www.longecity...ncies/?p=731672

 

 

I'm trying to find some sources for accutane damage as well as general things to test for. I want to be able to investigate the causes. Accutane can cause pituitary problems.

 

During the ACTH stimulation test I felt the absolute best I did in ages. During the test ACTH and cortisol were stimulated. There has to be a strong connection here but don't know if he will listen.  Cortef might potentially work wonders. Or then again I may just need ACTH stimulation in general. Since the adrenals can supposedly atrophy without enough ACTH function.  

[AlexCanada]

The doc prescribed me some Androgel!             and I think it's covered here in Canada. If not they will switch it to something else.

 

I wish he had just listened to me 5 months ago. He didn't really want to listen to any of my symptoms or concerns over my low cortisol function. Nor did he care about trying to find out the root cause. Instead he said depression causes low testosterone.  What a load of nonsense. More like the other way around. Because who on earth would feel good, motivated, and happy in their life if their T levels were through the floor?   Can you imagine a doctor giving you Cymbalta for low T levels?  Yet this quack basically implied that's what should be done. Apparently this genius didn't get the memo that various SSRI's reduce T levels via raising prolactin.

 

 

Low T and Depression Connection: 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16760626

 

"The partial androgen deficiency of aging males (PADAM) is responsible for a variety of behavioral symptoms, such as weakness, fatigue, decreased libido, depressive mood, lack of motivation and energy, lower psychological vitality, anxiety, irritability, insomnia, decreased work and sport performances, difficulty in concentrating, memory impairment and low dominance. Psychological and behavioral aspects of PADAM overlap with signs and symptoms of major depression."

 

 

 

 

But no point getting it in with him. He is one of the biggest Endos in all of Ontario and yet he knows honestly next to nothing about TRT. He didn't even want to do a metabolic panel.  It was very rush rush, 5 minute appointment. Just like all those other knuckleheads at LMC.     Fun note:  He shrugged off my miraculous response to ACTH stimulation as placebo.   Because of course the fact that my cortisol was raised to normal levels could not be a possible factor. 

 

At least I got the prescription though

[123apk]

Well some bodybuilders avoid soya because it's thought to promote estrogen in men.