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Arguments for or against the existence of god do not make sense

logic universe

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#1 cats_lover

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 02:59 AM


I'm tired of hearing theists citing the origin of the universe as evidence of god's existence, and i'm also tired to hearing atheists and anti-theists trying to give a logical explanation to this to refute theists (even when our knowledge of physics cannot explain this).

 

Can anybody give a good logical argument for or against this??



#2 shadowhawk

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 04:40 AM

Well you haven't said anything to refute  or affirm yet.  Nor have you told us what you accept as evidence and why.  So, lets start off with logic by clarifying what you are talking about. 



#3 cats_lover

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 01:14 PM

Well you haven't said anything to refute  or affirm yet.  Nor have you told us what you accept as evidence and why.  So, lets start off with logic by clarifying what you are talking about. 

 

I mean, everything, every phenomena have a theist and an atheist explanation; it is about perspective.

 

If we are unable to explain something, this seems to be comfortable for theists; because they feel that this is evidence for God; even when the most logical explanation is that we are not able to explain it now, but surely we will in the future.

 

The physical world seems to work logically always, and this does not rule out the existence of a God who has created this universe; but it leaves us with no evidence of God; only with a clockwork universe to observe and decode.



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#4 platypus

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 03:04 PM

God has an atheist explanation (product/projection of the human brain). 



#5 cats_lover

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 03:54 PM

God has an atheist explanation (product/projection of the human brain). 

 

Everything can be explained in one sentence, but that does not make the explanation true.
 

If it is more logical for you to believe that there is no god, i respect it; but this is your personal opinion and there is no evidence supporting your point.



#6 platypus

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 04:13 PM

Sure there is evidence, no gods are needed to explain any of the phenomena that are attributed to gods by people -> by Occam's razor we can ditch the unnecessary gods. Of course, it is possible that a totally passive/dead creator god started the multiverses but it's pretty fruitless to speculate about it. 



#7 sthira

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 04:34 PM

I agree with you cats lover. We don't know much. And these same logicians have hounded this heavy for, what, thousands of years?

I think if there is a god, then you'll feel it rather than think it. You'll "know" and if you relate your quiet, intimate knowing to someone else they'll easily blast it down. To nothing left. But the twist, the turn of it -- G-d is all inward, mysterious, beautiful and ineffable. Speak it, it dries up, flies away. Some religions don't even utter the word -- or leave out letters of it -- since to utter it is to label it, define it, limit the infinity. Even these words -- pah... Nothing. Stay agnostic and open. No one knows shit, and those claiming insider knowledge are predictable liars and thieves.

One thing I've decided for sure, though. Life is suffering, like Buddha said. So, if the Christian God is defined as all knowing, all powerful and all loving, then that God should be able to snap us all out of the suffering in this very moment. Do it now, God. Why not, God? Are you evil, God? Do you want your creatures to agonize, suffer and die, dear God? Relieve all sentient creatures, all life's sufferers, where are you, God? Are you dead? Did we create you? Did we kill you? Did you never exist? The Christian God permits the suffering. So to me this seems like strong evidence that this mainstream lame ass God just does not exist. That's not to say no God exists -- but the one that Christians have laid down for us is certainly dead.

#8 cats_lover

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 04:45 PM

Sure there is evidence, no gods are needed to explain any of the phenomena that are attributed to gods by people -> by Occam's razor we can ditch the unnecessary gods. Of course, it is possible that a totally passive/dead creator god started the multiverses but it's pretty fruitless to speculate about it. 

 

This is a very rational position, anyway, while science has fascinated us in the last years with their developments and technologies; our ability to understand the universe is extremely limited. I do not think we are still able to rule out the existence of a god based on our primitive knowledge of the universe.

 



#9 platypus

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 05:50 PM

I think if there is a god, then you'll feel it rather than think it. You'll "know" and if you relate your quiet, intimate knowing to someone else they'll easily blast it down. To nothing left. But the twist, the turn of it -- G-d is all inward, mysterious, beautiful and ineffable. Speak it, it dries up, flies away. Some religions don't even utter the word -- or leave out letters of it -- since to utter it is to label it, define it, limit the infinity. Even these words -- pah... Nothing. Stay agnostic and open. No one knows shit, and those claiming insider knowledge are predictable liars and thieves.
 

Ok, but where's the supernatural in that? Eckhard Tolle just calls that being/presence. "God" is simply being here now, nothing supernatural about that..



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#10 cats_lover

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 06:07 PM

 

I think if there is a god, then you'll feel it rather than think it. You'll "know" and if you relate your quiet, intimate knowing to someone else they'll easily blast it down. To nothing left. But the twist, the turn of it -- G-d is all inward, mysterious, beautiful and ineffable. Speak it, it dries up, flies away. Some religions don't even utter the word -- or leave out letters of it -- since to utter it is to label it, define it, limit the infinity. Even these words -- pah... Nothing. Stay agnostic and open. No one knows shit, and those claiming insider knowledge are predictable liars and thieves.
 

Ok, but where's the supernatural in that? Eckhard Tolle just calls that being/presence. "God" is simply being here now, nothing supernatural about that..

 

 

Agree, we just accpet our phyisical reality; no natural or supernatural phenomena; just things that happen and we explain to feel more comfortable.



#11 old_school

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 07:02 PM

I bear witness and give testimony to having seen Jesus, heard the Father's voice and seen an angel three times. If you do an internet search, you will find many just like me.



#12 cats_lover

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 08:05 PM

I bear witness and give testimony to having seen Jesus, heard the Father's voice and seen an angel three times. If you do an internet search, you will find many just like me.

If i do a internet search i also will find many people who seen UFO, aliens, Elvis, etc... I do not want to discredit your testimony; I only say that what others say in the Internet is not necessarily true.


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#13 shadowhawk

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 08:12 PM

Either the material world (whatever that is) is self created and eternal or God is and has no cause.  So we have two creators which I will call Gods.  Either Matter is God or God is and he by nature is spirit.  Spirit is either the ground of being or matter is.  That is the beginning position of faith by both sides.  Reason is used by both positions to give evidence for their perspective. 



#14 pamojja

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 08:16 PM

One thing I've decided for sure, though. Life is suffering, like Buddha said. So, if the Christian God is defined as all knowing, all powerful and all loving, then that God should be able to snap us all out of the suffering in this very moment. Do it now, God. Why not, God? Are you evil, God? Do you want your creatures to agonize, suffer and die, dear God? Relieve all sentient creatures, all life's sufferers, where are you, God? Are you dead? Did we create you? Did we kill you? Did you never exist? The Christian God permits the suffering. So to me this seems like strong evidence that this mainstream lame ass God just does not exist. That's not to say no God exists -- but the one that Christians have laid down for us is certainly dead.

 

Could also mean that creator God just isn't as omnipotent as theist usually believe. Alas, the Buddha - at least in Pali texts - affirmed the existence of different kind of Gods. Just that they are allegedly also subject to the law of impermanence (after a few eons) as any other being and therefore not a state worth striving for.
 


Edited by pamojja, 19 May 2015 - 08:18 PM.


#15 shadowhawk

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 08:20 PM

I agree with you cats lover. We don't know much. And these same logicians have hounded this heavy for, what, thousands of years?

I think if there is a god, then you'll feel it rather than think it. You'll "know" and if you relate your quiet, intimate knowing to someone else they'll easily blast it down. To nothing left. But the twist, the turn of it -- G-d is all inward, mysterious, beautiful and ineffable. Speak it, it dries up, flies away. Some religions don't even utter the word -- or leave out letters of it -- since to utter it is to label it, define it, limit the infinity. Even these words -- pah... Nothing. Stay agnostic and open. No one knows shit, and those claiming insider knowledge are predictable liars and thieves.

One thing I've decided for sure, though. Life is suffering, like Buddha said. So, if the Christian God is defined as all knowing, all powerful and all loving, then that God should be able to snap us all out of the suffering in this very moment. Do it now, God. Why not, God? Are you evil, God? Do you want your creatures to agonize, suffer and die, dear God? Relieve all sentient creatures, all life's sufferers, where are you, God? Are you dead? Did we create you? Did we kill you? Did you never exist? The Christian God permits the suffering. So to me this seems like strong evidence that this mainstream lame ass God just does not exist. That's not to say no God exists -- but the one that Christians have laid down for us is certainly dead.

I don't agree.  You should be able to know God with the emotions but the faith also has to be reasonable.  It is rational to believe in God.  Non theists also believe in all kinds of things.  That does not make them all wrong just because there is disagreement.

 

Also, given materialism, nothing is evil.  It is just natural.  Evil is an argument for the existence of god so is free will which means we get to choose evil.  However I won't develop that line of reasoning here.  You are protesting God and if there is no God you are protesting a fairy tale.  Christianity knows all about suffering and is about overcoming it.


Edited by shadowhawk, 19 May 2015 - 08:45 PM.


#16 old_school

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 08:36 PM

 

I bear witness and give testimony to having seen Jesus, heard the Father's voice and seen an angel three times. If you do an internet search, you will find many just like me.

If i do a internet search i also will find many people who seen UFO, aliens, Elvis, etc... I do not want to discredit your testimony; I only say that what others say in the Internet is not necessarily true.

 

 

UFO's and aliens are real by the way. And there are a lot of Elvis impersonators running around.
 


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#17 cats_lover

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 09:12 PM

 

 

I bear witness and give testimony to having seen Jesus, heard the Father's voice and seen an angel three times. If you do an internet search, you will find many just like me.

If i do a internet search i also will find many people who seen UFO, aliens, Elvis, etc... I do not want to discredit your testimony; I only say that what others say in the Internet is not necessarily true.

 

 

UFO's and aliens are real by the way. And there are a lot of Elvis impersonators running around.
 

 

 

Oh... ok.



#18 The Brain

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 09:24 PM

I bear witness and give testimony to having seen Jesus, heard the Father's voice and seen an angel three times. If you do an internet search, you will find many just like me.



Doesn't mean any of you are telling the truth though, plus your credibility is already in the bottom of the toilet ...
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#19 The Brain

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 09:26 PM


I agree with you cats lover. We don't know much. And these same logicians have hounded this heavy for, what, thousands of years?

I think if there is a god, then you'll feel it rather than think it. You'll "know" and if you relate your quiet, intimate knowing to someone else they'll easily blast it down. To nothing left. But the twist, the turn of it -- G-d is all inward, mysterious, beautiful and ineffable. Speak it, it dries up, flies away. Some religions don't even utter the word -- or leave out letters of it -- since to utter it is to label it, define it, limit the infinity. Even these words -- pah... Nothing. Stay agnostic and open. No one knows shit, and those claiming insider knowledge are predictable liars and thieves.

One thing I've decided for sure, though. Life is suffering, like Buddha said. So, if the Christian God is defined as all knowing, all powerful and all loving, then that God should be able to snap us all out of the suffering in this very moment. Do it now, God. Why not, God? Are you evil, God? Do you want your creatures to agonize, suffer and die, dear God? Relieve all sentient creatures, all life's sufferers, where are you, God? Are you dead? Did we create you? Did we kill you? Did you never exist? The Christian God permits the suffering. So to me this seems like strong evidence that this mainstream lame ass God just does not exist. That's not to say no God exists -- but the one that Christians have laid down for us is certainly dead.

I don't agree. You should be able to know God with the emotions but the faith also has to be reasonable. It is rational to believe in God. Non theists also believe in all kinds of things. That does not make them all wrong just because there is disagreement.

Also, given materialism, nothing is evil. It is just natural. Evil is an argument for the existence of god so is free will which means we get to choose evil. However I won't develop that line of reasoning here. You are protesting God and if there is no God you are protesting a fairy tale. Christianity knows all about suffering and is about overcoming it.


Christianity will never overcome suffering, it's a tool it uses for pity, for excuses, for recruitment
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#20 sthira

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 12:23 AM

I don't agree. You should be able to know God with the emotions but the faith also has to be reasonable. It is rational to believe in God. Non theists also believe in all kinds of things. That does not make them all wrong just because there is disagreement.


I agree we should be able to know God through the emotions. The problem I have is how do I know anything exists behind the emotions? As you know, we can prod around in your brain with a stick and make you have any emotion you'd like.

And second, what makes you think having emotions about God isn't simply an evolutionarily passed trait? For example, more people believed in God through emotion than didn't, then passed their traits and beliefs to subsequent generations?

Also, given materialism, nothing is evil. It is just natural. Evil is an argument for the existence of god so is free will which means we get to choose evil. However I won't develop that line of reasoning here. You are protesting God and if there is no God you are protesting a fairy tale. Christianity knows all about suffering and is about overcoming it.


I was careful to use the term "suffering" and not "evil." Suffering occurs throughout the animal kingdom. Why would a kind, just and all powerful God use such a brutal tactic? If you were God, would you make your creations suffer unnecessary pain and agony? I didn't say evil, nor anything about "free will." Free will is most likely a unique human trait -- although we're still undecided as to whether or not bonobos, pan paniscus, some species of dolphins, whales, octopus may also experience "free will."

I am protesting to God from an agnostic point of view, not as an atheist. I've no idea if God exists. I doubt. Doubt is a healthy attribute of a well-functioning brain. If God made my brain, why would God then ask me to turn off doubt and accept faith in the face of such pointless suffering? I ask God why do you make the creatures you claim to love suffer so terribly? Why? And not just the pointless suffering of your human creations; but all sentient beings that must be doomed to suffer this life. Can't you, God, with all your power, goodness and knowledge come up with a more pleasant way for your creatures to live? Why are scientists doing a better job than you? Anesthesia, for example...

If Christianity has answered why creatures suffer, I'd like to hear it. I'm not interested in your good versus evil arguments. Unnecessary suffering throughout the animal kingdom: justify it. You can't. And I'm not really asking you, Shadowhawk, you're as clueless as everyone else. I'm asking God. Here's another chance for you, God. Right here on longecity.com: own up to your suffering tactic. If you don't, or can't, or won't, why should anyone believe you're a good, kind, powerful God?

#21 shadowhawk

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 07:36 PM

  Sthira:  I agree we should be able to know God through the emotions. The problem I have is how do I know anything exists behind the emotions? As you know, we can prod around in your brain with a stick and make you have any emotion you'd like.

And second, what makes you think having emotions about God isn't simply an evolutionarily passed trait? For example, more people believed in God through emotion than didn't, then passed their traits and beliefs to subsequent generations?


I didn’t emotions alone are what faith is based upon.  Reason also plays a part just like any subject and there is a grand history in Christianity for the use of reason.  I may love my wife but I also know who she is and can give you all kinds of facts and reasons for her existence.  As far as the role of evolution, I don’t find that very convincing and it negates almost nothing if it were true, which I doubt.


 

I was careful to use the term "suffering" and not "evil." Suffering occurs throughout the animal kingdom. Why would a kind, just and all powerful God use such a brutal tactic? If you were God, would you make your creations suffer unnecessary pain and agony? I didn't say evil, nor anything about "free will." Free will is most likely a unique human trait -- although we're still undecided as to whether or not bonobos, pan paniscus, some species of dolphins, whales, octopus may also experience "free will."


Is suffering evil?  Does God make us suffer?  Christianity is not a friend of suffering and does not blame God for it.  It is a result of the fall which I could go into but it would be off topic.  Given Atheism its creator god made suffering and it is a element of natural selection.  Is this also a brutal tactic?  If I was God, we would really be screwed up and I suspect the same goes for you.

Are you mad at evolution and do you protest and blame it as much?

I am protesting to God from an agnostic point of view, not as an atheist. I've no idea if God exists. I doubt. Doubt is a healthy attribute of a well-functioning brain. If God made my brain, why would God then ask me to turn off doubt and accept faith in the face of such pointless suffering? I ask God why do you make the creatures you claim to love suffer so terribly? Why? And not just the pointless suffering of your human creations; but all sentient beings that must be doomed to suffer this life. Can't you, God, with all your power, goodness and knowledge come up with a more pleasant way for your creatures to live? Why are scientists doing a better job than you? Anesthesia, for example...

If Christianity has answered why creatures suffer, I'd like to hear it. I'm not interested in your good versus evil arguments. Unnecessary suffering throughout the animal kingdom: justify it. You can't. And I'm not really asking you, Shadowhawk, you're as clueless as everyone else. I'm asking God. Here's another chance for you, God. Right here on longecity.com: own up to your suffering tactic. If you don't, or can't, or won't, why should anyone believe you're a good, kind, powerful God?


Ironic that you pit scientists against God when He made them and what they study.  Christians have by far the greatest hospital system in the world as well as other charities.  So you don’t want to hear why there is evil suffering but you want to blame it on God as if He is evil.  You are going go give God another chance right here on Longcity no less!   There is an unspoken agenda here.
 

#22 The Brain

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 09:36 PM

Ummmm, proof that god made scientists please ???

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#23 shadowhawk

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 09:38 PM

Ignorant misuse of the word proof, again and again.



#24 The Brain

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 10:03 PM

So you can't ... Typical

#25 cats_lover

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 11:07 PM

Ummmm, proof that god made scientists please ???

 

If God create the universe then he (directly or indirectly) create scientists.

Again it all depends on your point of departure.
 


Edited by cats_lover, 20 May 2015 - 11:08 PM.


#26 The Brain

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 11:30 PM


Ummmm, proof that god made scientists please ???


If God create the universe then he (directly or indirectly) create scientists.

Again it all depends on your point of departure.


He also then created serial killers and child sex offenders then, true ?
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#27 cats_lover

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 12:58 AM

 

 

Ummmm, proof that god made scientists please ???


If God create the universe then he (directly or indirectly) create scientists.

Again it all depends on your point of departure.


He also then created serial killers and child sex offenders then, true ?

 

 

Yes, that's true, but that people chose to be serial killers and/or sex offenders.


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#28 The Brain

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 01:05 AM

Like they choose to be scientists???

#29 cats_lover

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 01:11 AM

Like they choose to be scientists???

 

Yes, for this reason i say "directly or indirectly" first time.


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#30 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 06:06 AM

 

 

Ummmm, proof that god made scientists please ???


If God create the universe then he (directly or indirectly) create scientists.

Again it all depends on your point of departure.


He also then created serial killers and child sex offenders then, true ?

 

Yes God created them but not their actions.  We choose.


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