• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Nicotinamide without the Riboside, Nicotinamide by itself. Any good?

niagen nicotinamide antiaging

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
12 replies to this topic
⌛⇒ write a quiz!

#1 TheSimulation

  • Guest
  • 10 posts
  • 3
  • Location:Edmonton, Canada

Posted 22 July 2015 - 07:27 PM


Nicotinamide is available for cheap pricing on ebay and other places like amazon... but it is not Nicotinamide Riboside.  So what exactly is it, if it does not contain the riboside portion? What is it bonded to if it's not riboside?

 

Anyone have any links to sites describing the disadvantages and advantages of taking plain Nicotinamide instead of the riboside one? 

The pricing for Nicotinamide is much much cheaper than for the riboside varieties..

 

From what I researched, Nicotinamide multivitamin that is not labeled as riboside does in fact release NAD into the cells and cause anti aging, however it says in some articles that if you take too much of it the effects can go into reverse and negate the effect of anti aging. I will try to find the web links to the studies that say this as I have misplaced them. If you can find them post them here.

 

So is it worth taking Nicotinamide since it is so cheap, compared to spending lots of money on riboside varieties?  What is the actual bond or chemical formula for Nicotinamide without riboside? I am wondering if it is bonded to something very similar and they are just using Nicotinamide to avoid paying royalties for the niagen name brand.. maybe it works just as good, or maybe not..



#2 TheSimulation

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 10 posts
  • 3
  • Location:Edmonton, Canada

Posted 22 July 2015 - 09:41 PM

"The darker side of niacin/niacinamide supplementation

Turning now to the darker side, there is unquestionable evidence that niacinamide inhibits the expression of SIRT1 and its multiple health and longevity benefits discussed in three recent blog posts ( SIRT1, mTOR, NF-kappaB and resveratrol, Visit with Leonard Guarante, and  SIRT1, the hypoxic response, autophagy and hormesis).  

The 2002 publication Inhibition of Silencing and Accelerated Aging by Nicotinamide, a Putative Negative Regulator of Yeast Sir2 and Human SIRT1 reported that in yeast at least nicotinamide inhibited Sir2 and decreased lifespan.  “We show here that nicotinamide strongly inhibits yeast silencing, increases rDNA recombination, and shortens replicative life span to that of asir2 mutant.”

 

http://www.anti-agin...od-or-bad-idea/

 

In the comments on that page:

 

"One must be careful when calling nicotinamide an “inhibitor” in this experiment. While it is true that our lab showed that nicotinamide is a direct inhibitor of SIRT1 enzyme, it is also a precursor of NAD+, and NAD+ is a co-substrate (i.e., activator) of SIRT1.

In vivo, there is an abundant enzyme called Nampt in cells and serum that initiates the conversion of nicotinamide to NAD+. Therefore we should entertain the possibility that nicotinamide is activating SIRT1 in vivo, not inhibiting it. This would fit with other papers showing that SIRT1 is neuroprotective."


Edited by TheSimulation, 22 July 2015 - 09:52 PM.

  • Good Point x 1

#3 Gerrans

  • Guest
  • 371 posts
  • 60
  • Location:UK

Posted 23 July 2015 - 11:02 AM

I am a fan of niacinamide, and the only thing I can find against it is this thing--played up on this website more than any other--that it might shorten one's life. I go a little steady with niacinamide on that account, but I take it for many reasons. For example, despite (and because of?) the association with SIRT1, it is also associated with many measures of health. I find it hard to see how it could shorten my life while improving various measures of my health. I have my own view, which is that we all possess mechanisms to ensure we do not live forever--in other words, we have built-in senescence--so maybe niacinamide is part of that system. After all, it is produced naturally in the body. All else being equal, I am banking that activation and inhibition of sirtuins are just normal balancing processes. I like the fact that some of the biggest proponents of niacinamide--Kaufman, Hoffer, and Pauling--lived to a ripe old age (and I get the impression they were shovelling it down the hatch with a grain scoop).

 

Niacinamide is not necessarily a supplement that gives you obvious effects, but I have noted one or two things from it. I have noticed that it can warm my fingers when they are cold, which is significant to me since I suffer from chilblains. I think it does this by dilating blood vessels at the periphery. I believe it helps with the heat too, which may contribute to my not getting sunburn. It does have a reputation for helping against sunburn and other skin stresses when taken internally; but it has also been used effectively as a topical skin treatment, for example for age spots. I have very few age spots, but I am thinking about seeing if I can fade them topically with some niacinamide. The science makes sense to me.

 

Niacinamide has been found to help ease arthritis, which suggests the same benefit to collagen as it has in skin. I also like what I have read about the effect of niacinamide on the brain, where it has been associated with cognitive benefits. I feel as if it supports my sleep.

 

There is a vast literature on niacinamide research, but here are a few papers bearing on my comments:

 

Green et al, "Nicotinamide restores cognition in Alzheimer's Disease transgenic mice via a mechanism involving sirtuin inhibition and selective reduction of Thr231-phosphotase", J Neurosci, 2008

 

Schmeisser, et al, "Role of sirtuins in lifespan regulation is linked to methylation of nicotinamide," Stroke, 2000

 

Yiasemides, et al, "Oral nicotinamide protects against ultraviolet radiation-induced immunosuppression in humans", Carcinogenesis, 2009

 

Hakozaki, et al, "The effect of niacinamide on reducing cutaneous pigmentation and suppression of melanosome transfer," Br J Dermatol, 2002

 

Kang, et al, "Nicotinamide extends replicative lifespan of human cells," Aging Cell, 2006

 

Jonas, et al, "The effect of niacinamide on osteoarthritis: a pilot study," Inflamm Res, 1996


Edited by Gerrans, 23 July 2015 - 11:09 AM.

  • Informative x 1

#4 Bryan_S

  • Member
  • 1,197 posts
  • 395
  • Location:Orlando

Posted 26 July 2015 - 03:58 AM

In the comments on that page:

 

"One must be careful when calling nicotinamide an “inhibitor” in this experiment. While it is true that our lab showed that nicotinamide is a direct inhibitor of SIRT1 enzyme, it is also a precursor of NAD+, and NAD+ is a co-substrate (i.e., activator) of SIRT1.

In vivo, there is an abundant enzyme called Nampt in cells and serum that initiates the conversion of nicotinamide to NAD+. Therefore we should entertain the possibility that nicotinamide is activating SIRT1 in vivo, not inhibiting it. This would fit with other papers showing that SIRT1 is neuroprotective."

 

True in vivo within a living system and in vitro in a test tube makes the SIRT1 difference. I also came across David Sinclair's post on this topic. Most arguments against Niacinamide AKA Nicotinamide (Nam) fail to make that distinction and in my opinion fuel its hate campaign. Niacinamide AKA Nicotinamide belongs to part of our natural NAD salvage cycle. You are constantly recycling it and it is a part of your everyday metabolism.

 

I take both but if I had enough money I would likely stick with only Nicotinamide Riboside (NR) because it is more bioactive. Also "because current data suggest that nicotinamide riboside may be the only vitamin precursor that supports neuronal NAD+ synthesis." As you study both of these you'll find each has a separate distinct path into the cell and some cells have a preference. Nicotinamide Riboside also seems to be the preferred NAD precursor for extracellular transport between tissues. Both paths for (NR and Nam) converge by building the NAD precursor Nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) which is converted to NAD.

 

Now all that aside you'll find 70-years of research on Niacinamide AKA Nicotinamide. In terms of safety its one of the most studied vitamins and very well tolerated. You said; "Niacinamide is not necessarily a supplement that gives you obvious effects," and I tend to agree because Vitamin B3 may also help prevent certain skin cancers among other things. So reading your post you don't seem to need any encouragement as you are already a fan.

 

So any good, yes. Can you do better, yes but if you cant afford better and are on a budget Niacinamide is a good fall back position.


  • like x 1

#5 RWhigham

  • Guest
  • 403 posts
  • 360
  • Location:United States
  • NO

Posted 15 January 2017 - 09:41 PM

I am a fan of niacinamide, and the only thing I can find against it is this thing--played up on this website more than any other--that it might shorten one's life.

 

Anti-aging Firewalls - James Watson, April 2015  Section 5:  "Conclusion: It is now clear that high concentrations nicotinamide are harmful to health. HIgh doses of dietary niacin probably produce the same effects, despite the many benefits of high dose niacin. With aging, nicotinamide levels already go up. Adding more nicotinamide is probably not going to “cure” aging. Adding a methyl donor to eliminate nicotinamide (such as betaine) may be a good thing."

  • A healthspan argument can be made for supplementing niacin or niacinamide.
  • Excessive niacin converts to niacinamide in vivo.
  • Niacin/niacinamide RDA = 16 mg (male adults).
  • I prefer to emphasize lifespan,  and therefore avoid excess niacinamide or niacin.
  • The Jigsaw slow release B-complex which I take has 15 mg of niacinamide, and zero niacin.

 


Edited by RWhigham, 15 January 2017 - 10:17 PM.

  • WellResearched x 1

#6 sthira

  • Guest
  • 1,952 posts
  • 389

Posted 15 January 2017 - 10:46 PM

Does it seem like there's some sloppy use of names going on around here? We have (1) Nicotinamide; (2) Niacinamide; (3) Niacin; (4) Nicotinic Acid; (5) vitamin B3; (6) Nicotinamide Mononucleotide
(7); and finally the holy grail of (8) Nicotinamide riboside. Have I missed any others?

I understand that niacin is nicotinic acid is vitamin B3 (same-same-same); that niacinamide is "flush-free niacin"; that Nicotinamide Mononucleotide the thing we want inside cells (presumably) but it isn't directly absorbed by cells, and requires conversion to NR before entry into cells; once inside cells it's evidently converted back again Nicotinamide Mononucleotide before being turned into NAD+. Or so says Brenner:

http://www.nature.co...les/ncomms12948

http://www.nature.co...les/ncomms13103

But what is Nicotinamide (sans riboside), and why when I search for it do I get a kinda bait and switch to niacinamide?

And why wouldn't I just take some nicotinamide with riboside together as two separate cheaper pills (assuming this stuff is worthwhile taking in megadoses like, what, 25 grams at a time?)

I realize this is an ongoing science project here, but really: what's up with the language here?
  • Good Point x 1

#7 RWhigham

  • Guest
  • 403 posts
  • 360
  • Location:United States
  • NO

Posted 16 January 2017 - 04:17 AM

Does it seem like there's some sloppy use of names going on around here? We have (1) Nicotinamide; (2) Niacinamide; (3) Niacin; (4) Nicotinic Acid; (5) vitamin B3; (6) Nicotinamide Mononucleotide

(7); and finally the holy grail of (8) Nicotinamide riboside. Have I missed any others?
  • (1) Nicotinamide (Nam)  and niacinamide (2) are different names for exactly the same thing. 
  • (3) Niacin and nicotinic acid (4) (Na) are different names for exactly the same thing as well.
  • (5) Vitamin B3 refers to niacin (nicotinic acid),  niacinamide (nicotinamide), or inositol hexanicotinate (IP6 aka phytic acid) all of which prevent the disease pellagra, but work somewhat differently in the body.
  • (6) Nicotinamide Mononucleotide (NMN) is a precursor/substrate for NAD. NMN can be made from niacinamide with the rate-limiting enzyme NAMPT. Supplementary NMN can increase NAD and also supply B3.
  • (7)(8) Nicotinamide Riboside (Nr) is another precursor/substrate for NAD.  Supplementary Nr can increase NAD and also supply B3.
  • IP6 (phytic acid) is 1 molecule of inositol surrounded by 6 molecules of niacin. IP6 releases niacin into the bloodstream very slowly peaking about 10 hours after IP6 consumption. IP6 does not damage the liver like slow release niacin formulations. IP6 is about 70% absorbed.
  • Niacin causes flushing, and reduces the liver's cholesterol production. Large doses of niacin are toxic to the liver, but the liver recovers ok if the doses are separated by 24 hours. Niacin does not inhibit SIRT1. However, extra niacin is converted to niacinamide. RDA = 16 mg. Muli-gram doses are used to reduce lipids.
  • Niacinamide does not cause flushing, or lower cholesterol. Niacinamide, Nr, and NMN are all substrates for NAD+. We take Nr or NMN supplements to increase NAD+, but not niacinamide.
  • NAD+ is a coenzyme for SIRT1. Increased SIRT1 may account for many of the benefits of raising NAD+. Although niacinamide is a substrate for NAD+, it is also the strongest known inhibitor of SIRT1.  Part 5 of the NAD world  James Watson May 2016

Edited by RWhigham, 16 January 2017 - 04:31 AM.

  • Informative x 1
  • WellResearched x 1

#8 TheSimulation

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 10 posts
  • 3
  • Location:Edmonton, Canada

Posted 16 January 2017 - 04:40 AM

To add more knowledge to this topic: There are two types of regular niacinimide/nicotinamide available. There is the prolonged release (delayed release) which is harder on the liver, but slowly releases the niacinimide into the body.   The other type is immediate release (the bottle of pills must not say prolonged release on it). The immediate release one is not as hard on the liver, but acts quicker so may be wasted. So best to alternate:. some days take the immediate release pill and other days take the prolonged release.

 

I'm skeptical about the whole riboside product and whether or not the regular cheap niacinimide has the same basic effects, because there is some evidence that riboside gets converted before it can even be used, unless you were to inject it directly as that substance... into your blood.

 

This whole niacinimide thing is actually ticking me off quite a bit, because it seems to be turning out the same as the Sinclair fiasco where he claimed that resveratrol was going to be the aging drug/supplement of the future. Turned out resveratrol was basically a scam or had the reverse effect if you took too much or too little (it is too picky and basically didn't work). Well not quite a scam, but, close to a scam... as basically these supplements are just like multi level marketing junk pills that make huge claims but don't actually do anything in reality.

 

Ultimately to me it seems we need to inject a substance into our blood or cells directly as the chemical gets broken down in our systems if taking it orally... and keeps converting back and forth into different forms.

 

Basically the whole niacinimide/nicotinamide research, IMO, is turning out exactly the same way as resveratol. Big claims, big hype, and basically no results... no success.. All the studies are all contradicting each other. One study says it works, others say it doesn't. Not the right quantity or dose.... Way too picky, it's not simple but a complicated joke. We know what happened to the resveratol, and now the same thing is happening to nicatinimide.... "it's a crap shoot". Or in other words, like a blind man hitting a pinyata.

 

http://media.gettyim...22755?s=170667a

 

http://www.urbandict...term=crap shoot

 

Yup a crap shoot.. No one really knows...

 

But looking on the positive side: is there any riboside injection therapy? injecting it into cells or blood? That would seem the best way to go, but even then you've got the dose amount issue to work out

 

 


  • unsure x 1
  • Ill informed x 1

#9 RWhigham

  • Guest
  • 403 posts
  • 360
  • Location:United States
  • NO

Posted 16 January 2017 - 05:34 AM

To add more knowledge to this topic: There are two types of regular niacinimide/nicotinamide available. There is the prolonged release (delayed release) which is harder on the liver, but slowly releases the niacinimide into the body.   The other type is immediate release (the bottle of pills must not say prolonged release on it). 

You have conflated the quick and slow release formulations of niacin and niacinamide. 

 

Slow release niacin was formulated to suppress the liver's production of cholesterol on a more continuous basis to more effectively lower serum lipids. This was later discovered to damage the liver. (Slow release formulations are still available for the unwary). The liver needs up to 24 hr to recover between large doses of niacin. Slow release niacin may not give the liver enough time to recover, especially if take more than once/day. Depending on the dose and rate of release, once/day can be ok, but liver enzymes should be checked.

 

Slow release niacinamide is not "hard on the liver", and does not lower serum lipids.

 

Like all B-vitamins, niacinamide and niacin are water soluble and not stored in the body, making slow release formulations attractive. However, niacin is a much better substrate than niacinamide for raising NAD.  https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17604275


Edited by RWhigham, 16 January 2017 - 05:38 AM.

  • Agree x 1

#10 TheSimulation

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 10 posts
  • 3
  • Location:Edmonton, Canada

Posted 16 January 2017 - 06:50 AM

 

To add more knowledge to this topic: There are two types of regular niacinimide/nicotinamide available. There is the prolonged release (delayed release) which is harder on the liver, but slowly releases the niacinimide into the body.   The other type is immediate release (the bottle of pills must not say prolonged release on it). 

You have conflated the quick and slow release formulations of niacin and niacinamide. 

 

No, I found research that found the prolonged slow release niacinimide/nicotinamide was hard on liver

 

I will reply back to this thread, if I can find the studies.... This research I did was almost a year ago or more, so I do not have the links handy right now.

 

I'm skeptical of anyone who has definite proclamations about this subject too... as this research is quite complex and does not have binary answers as in "it's definitely not hard on the liver"....  In this case, it's actually "wait until more research is done, it may in fact be"

 

It also depends on people's genetics. I believe I found some studies saying certain people were extremely sensitive to certain pills, when they were studying how b-vitamins helped mental illness (bipolar and schizophrenia) by mega dosing.


  • Needs references x 1

#11 RWhigham

  • Guest
  • 403 posts
  • 360
  • Location:United States
  • NO

Posted 16 January 2017 - 06:06 PM

There is a feedback loop in which SIRT1 increases nicotinamide (Nam), and Nam then limits SIRT1 production. 

  • Nam is a substrate for NAD+         Nam -> NAD+     (Nam is converted to NAD+, depleting Nam)
  • NAD+ is a coenzyme for SIRT1     NAD+ -> SIRT1  (provided Nam is temporarily depleted)
  • SIRT1 catalyzes NAD+ -> Nam     NAD+ -> Nam     (catalyzed by SIRT1)
  • Nam now temporarily blocks the NAD+ to SIRT1 catalysis            

Edited by RWhigham, 16 January 2017 - 06:09 PM.


#12 RWhigham

  • Guest
  • 403 posts
  • 360
  • Location:United States
  • NO

Posted 18 January 2017 - 03:03 AM

There is a feedback loop in which SIRT1 increases nicotinamide (Nam), and Nam then limits SIRT1 production. 

In another feedback loop, the key NAD+ biosynthetic enzyme NAMPT is deacetylated by SIRT1, allowing NAD+ to decline and further limiting the production of SIRT1.  What is the evolutionary reason for SIRT1 to be self-limiting?

 

Dark side of SIRT1 :

SIRT1 in adipose cells deacetylates iNAMPT (intracellular NAMPT).  Perhaps in other cells too, but in adipose cells the deacetylated NAMPT is excreted into the bloodstream where i'ts called eNAMPT (extracellular NAMPT).  eNAMPT is an endotoxin surrogate.  Macrophages treat eNAMPT as endotoxin/LPS and respond with massive inflammation. Chronic inflammation causes extensive damage, including cartilage and artery damage, rheumatoid arthritis, and diabetes. This is a connection between excess adipose tissue and the development of diabetes after yo-yo dieting. (Dieting ups SIRT1.) 

 

Speculation:

What is the evolutionary reason for adipose cells to create eNAMPT/inflamation?  SIRT1 is normally produced by food scarcity.  Perhaps during evolution well-fed people fasts were frequently due to illness. (Inflammation is needed for fighting illness). Whereas, skinny people fasts were usually caused by food scarcity instead.

 


Edited by RWhigham, 18 January 2017 - 03:15 AM.


⌛⇒ write a quiz!

#13 SearchHorizon

  • Guest
  • 156 posts
  • 27

Posted 22 January 2017 - 08:56 AM

 

There is a feedback loop in which SIRT1 increases nicotinamide (Nam), and Nam then limits SIRT1 production. 

  • Nam is a substrate for NAD+         Nam -> NAD+     (Nam is converted to NAD+, depleting Nam)
  • NAD+ is a coenzyme for SIRT1     NAD+ -> SIRT1  (provided Nam is temporarily depleted)
  • SIRT1 catalyzes NAD+ -> Nam     NAD+ -> Nam     (catalyzed by SIRT1)
  • Nam now temporarily blocks the NAD+ to SIRT1 catalysis            

 

1. Research shows that the conversion of NAM into NAD+ increases when melatonin production increases (at night). Increased melatonin level is accompanied by increased SIRT1 activation. It is interesting that melatonin production decreases with aging. Perhaps, the decreased level of NAMPT is driven by decrease in melatonin production.

 

2. NAM's 1/2 life fairly short. I seriously doubt it has a negative impact on SIRT1.

 

3. I believe that there is some evidence that constant over activation of SIRT1 is a bad thing. SIRT1 is not just activated by hunger. It appears to be a general "stress-response" gene. It make sense that its over activation leads to adverse effects - this is consistent with ill effects of chronic stress.

 

The temporary SIRT1 deactivation probably provides a "break" from translating stress into a physical response, which is probably a good thing.

 

4. I have been playing with niacin, niacinamide, and niacinamide for years (and with niacinamide ribside for 3 months). At appropriate dosages, each of these appears to have a different short term effect when ingested (initial 1-2 hours). Over a longer time frame (3-10) hours, their effects are identical or similar. They all raise body temperature, and appears to facilitate fat metabolism (over glycogen.  


  • like x 1




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users