76 replies to this topic

[DukeNukem]

If you must use milk, definitely stay away from anything that's "ultra-pasteurized."

[niner]

If that's pasteurized milk, it's high in glycated endproducts.

Do you have a trustworthy source for this warning? I've just adopted the half-litre/day regimen because of a new brand of milk (Hungarian "Milli") that comes with 30mg of omega-3s per 100g and seems a cheaper source of fish fat than the supplements available at the drug store. If this is a Trojan horse, I'd like to know.

It's solid info, but the bioavailability of dietary glycation adducts/AGEs isn't well known, AFAIK. Also, there are different types of pasteurization that will probably affect the amount of glycation products in the milk.

I don't worry much about glycated endproducts in foods. My reasoning is that glycated proteins should be hydrolyzed in the stomach, both by acid and enzymatic mechanisms, just like any other protein. The amino acids that are glycated may or may not survive the stomach- I haven't seen any info on this, but the question is what happens to them if they do survive the stomach? Are they absorbed? My guess would be yes, at least for some species. Once absorbed, are they incorporated into new proteins? I suspect they are not. The protein synthesis machinery needs to accurately recognize each type of amino acid, and if an amino acid is modified, especially if it has a large adduct, I suspect it will not bind in the recognition pocket. The probable fate of modified amino acids is further metabolism and excretion, IMHO. If anyone has solid information on this, let us know.

[donjoe]

Damn, this milk is UHT. I've come to understand that the higher the cooking temperature (and pasteurization is basically just heating for a determined time), the more Advanced Glycation Endproducts (AGEs - nice acronym considering their effect, huh?) will result. UHT uses a higher temperature than other methods, so indeed it's probably the worst way to go. I have to drop this and look for something else.

[luv2increase]

I think that cayenne pepper and ginger are the most important herbs. There are numerous benefits of them. I will most likely take them both indefinitely.

Cayenne Info
http://www.cleanse.n...and_health.html

Ginger Info
http://www.gingerpeo...com/health.html

[hst1]

Pterostilbene from blueberries has been getting more and more press. It is chemically realted to Resv and considered 60 times more potent. The lastest news has be with colon cancer and cholesterol.

What is everyones thoughts on safe dosages? My Lef Blue/Pom supplement is standardized to .1mg.

Swanson Vitamins has pterostilbene "Guaranteed 25% pterstilbene from Malibar Kino". One capsule has 30mg of pterostilebene.... I'm unsure about supplementing 30mg daily long term with the limited research.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I know it is tough with the limited research.

[opales]

Do you have a trustworthy source for this warning? I've just adopted the half-litre/day regimen because of a new brand of milk (Hungarian "Milli") that comes with 30mg of omega-3s per 100g and seems a cheaper source of fish fat than the supplements available at the drug store. If this is a Trojan horse, I'd like to know.

It's solid info, but the bioavailability of dietary glycation adducts/AGEs isn't well known, AFAIK. Also, there are different types of pasteurization that will probably affect the amount of glycation products in the milk.

I don't worry much about glycated endproducts in foods. My reasoning is that glycated proteins should be hydrolyzed in the stomach, both by acid and enzymatic mechanisms, just like any other protein. The amino acids that are glycated may or may not survive the stomach- I haven't seen any info on this, but the question is what happens to them if they do survive the stomach? Are they absorbed? My guess would be yes, at least for some species. Once absorbed, are they incorporated into new proteins? I suspect they are not. The protein synthesis machinery needs to accurately recognize each type of amino acid, and if an amino acid is modified, especially if it has a large adduct, I suspect it will not bind in the recognition pocket. The probable fate of modified amino acids is further metabolism and excretion, IMHO. If anyone has solid information on this, let us know.

Actually, diet derived AGEs appear to have deleterious effect, IIRC a mouse study found 15% life span advantage of AGE restricted diet.

Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2005 Jun;1043:452-60.  Related Articles, Links
    Click here to read
    Advanced glycation in health and disease: role of the modern environment.

    Vlassara H.

    Mount Sinai School of Medicine, Box 1640, One Gustave Levy Place, New York, NY 10029, USA. helen.vlassara@mssm.edu

    It is believed that intracellular and extracellular advanced glycation (AGEs) or lipoxidation end products (ALEs), together with dysregulated glucose and lipid metabolism, are important contributors to oxidant or carbonyl stress, enhanced cellular redox-sensitive transcription factor activity, and impaired innate immune defense, causing over time inappropriate inflammatory responses. However, neither the magnitude nor the persistent nature of this increased prooxidant state are completely understood. A significant correlation has been found between ingested and circulating AGEs in humans in recent years. Based on animal studies, the injurious impact of diet-derived AGEs to vascular and kidney tissues is estimated to rival or even exceed that caused by hyperglycemia or hyperlipidemia. Consistent with this view, dietary AGE restriction has been associated with suppression of several immune defects, insulin resistance, and diabetic complications, whether genetically or diet induced, despite persistent diabetes. These findings are in support of clinical evidence from subjects with diabetes or vascular or kidney disease. Most recently, evidence from animal studies points to AGE restriction as an effective means for extending median life span, similar to that previously shown by marked caloric restriction. We conclude that excessive AGE consumption, in the current dietary/social structure, represents an independent factor for inappropriate oxidant stress responses, which may promote the premature expression of complex diseases associated with adult life, such as diabetes and cardiovascular disease.

See also
http://lists.milepos...D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1

A friend of mine in the field speculated that enzymes to break down AGEs have not evolved because high temperature required for food AGEs to form has existed only short while as a way to prepare food

Re: pasteurization and AGEs, it seems effect is neglible. see
http://lists.milepos...D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1

[niner]

Actually, diet derived AGEs appear to have deleterious effect...

Holy crap. I had no idea. Thanks for clueing me in, opales. There's a lot of literature on this; Helen Vlassara has done a lot of work on it. I did a medline search on her name and came up with a lot of stuff. Looks like I have some reading to do. The problem with dietary AGEs is not incorporation of modified amino acids into proteins, as I had assumed. It's the presence of crosslinking compounds that are only half linked, thus they have a reactive end. The proteins apparently get hydrolysed and absorbed, then the reactive AGE components attach themselves to various biomolecules. So there's another reason not to smoke. Tobacco gets AGEd up during curing, then the AGEs are vaporised when you smoke. I'm not happy about cooked food being bad for me, though. That really sucks. I hope benfotiamine and pyridoxamine will help out here.

Here is a full text review on dietary AGEs. http://www.mssm.edu/...ges_232_241.pdf

[DukeNukem]

Just for fun, he's my list of the most beneficial supplements from the plant kingdom (I list the primary food source, as well as the molecule that delivers the key benefit)...

o Grapes -- resveratrol and grape seed extract
o Blueberries -- anthocyanin and pterostilbene
o White (or green) tea -- epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG)
o Olive Oil -- hydroxytyrosol
o Turmeric -- curcumin

These are the five that I consider non-negotiable, must-have everyday. All of these have amazing pro-health, anti-aging benefits, high ORAC values, and can battle the promotion of cancer and other disease and dementia.

As for my own consumption of these five, I take two supplements that contain resveratrol (I do not drink wine or eat grapes), I eat blueberries plus take a blueberry supplement, I drink white tea all day long, and use two other green/white tea supplements, I use olive oil each day, plus use two olive polyphenol supplements, and I take two turmeric supplements daily.

Most people haven't heard of pterostilbene (from blueberries), but it is coming on strong as a potent anti-oxidant with properties similar to resveratrol, along with stunning unique properties.

Of course, there are numerous other foods/plants with amazing benefits, but I doubt that any have been proven yet to deserve to be in the top five. Anyone disagree?

Scott

Just a follow-up to this 3+ yr-old post. I made a big deal about blueberries back then, primarily because of pterostilbene. Over the years, pterostilbene has been getting it's due, and continues to do so:

In a new study, aged laboratory animals that ate a diet rich in the berry and grape compound pterostilbene performed better than those in a group that did not eat the enriched diet, scientists with the Agricultural Research Service (ARS) have reported. Pterostilbene reversed measurable negative effects of aging on brain function and behavioral performance.

Over the time I've been a member here, when people have talked about cognitive supplements (nootropics), I have always mentioned the humble and unexciting blueberry. I think as evidence mounts, it will be more and more clear that pterostilbene is a must-take supplement (maybe in the same league as resveratrol), especially for anyone 35+. LEF, I know, has blueberry supps that have significant pterostilbene content. They also have several articles on blueberry extract and its nootropic benefits.

[DukeNukem]

More on pterostilbene, in an LEF article titled, The “Other” Resveratrol.
http://www.lef.org/m...veratrol_01.htm

I've been taking pterostilbene for over five years now, based on very promising early studies back then. In particular, I consider pterostilbene to be a top 5 nootropic, too.

This is definitely one to key an eye on if you're not already taking it.

[health_nutty]

More on pterostilbene, in an LEF article titled, The “Other” Resveratrol.
http://www.lef.org/m...veratrol_01.htm

I've been taking pterostilbene for over five years now, based on very promising early studies back then. In particular, I consider pterostilbene to be a top 5 nootropic, too.

This is definitely one to key an eye on if you're not already taking it.

I've been interested for a while but the price has always kept me away. What brand do you recommend?

[DukeNukem]

More on pterostilbene, in an LEF article titled, The “Other” Resveratrol.
http://www.lef.org/m...veratrol_01.htm

I've been taking pterostilbene for over five years now, based on very promising early studies back then. In particular, I consider pterostilbene to be a top 5 nootropic, too.

This is definitely one to key an eye on if you're not already taking it.

I've been interested for a while but the price has always kept me away. What brand do you recommend?

I've been taking LEF's:
http://www.lef.org/V...ry-Extract.html

Probably other good choices out there, too.

[health_nutty]

I don't like that the label doesn't list the Pterostilbene content (unless I'm missing something obvious).

[DukeNukem]

I don't like that the label doesn't list the Pterostilbene content (unless I'm missing something obvious).

I'm sure you can search around and find others that list it on the label.

[nameless]

The old LEF blueberry extracts had pretty paltry amounts of pterostilbene I think... something like .1 mg? Since it's not even listed on the label anymore, I wouldn't count on it having more than that.

Would this small amount actually do anything? The anthocyanin count is pretty small too, compared to just eating regular blueberries, so I'm not sure I see a point to an extract.

[nootrope]

LEF is currently having a sale on resveratrol with pterostilbene (0.5 mg, with 250 mg resveratrol). The 39% discount, however, applies only to orders of quantities of 4 or more. Not sure whether it's worth it in that I have so many supplements already. I've been experimenting with putting a tablespoon of frozen wild blueberries in my mouth each day for slow absorption; studies show that resveratrol absorption is enhanced orally, and the effectiveness of wine in the "French paradox" seems hard to understand otherwise given the small amounts of resveratrol in wine. I also take fo-ti (chinese knotwood), which like japanese knotwood, is high in stilbenes.

[nameless]

I've been experimenting with putting a tablespoon of frozen wild blueberries in my mouth each day for slow absorption; studies show that resveratrol absorption is enhanced orally, and the effectiveness of wine in the "French paradox" seems hard to understand otherwise given the small amounts of resveratrol in wine.

Unless there is no such thing as the 'French Paradox', or if grape/wine polyphenols are the substances providing a benefit, not resveratrol.

[DukeNukem]

I've been experimenting with putting a tablespoon of frozen wild blueberries in my mouth each day for slow absorption; studies show that resveratrol absorption is enhanced orally, and the effectiveness of wine in the "French paradox" seems hard to understand otherwise given the small amounts of resveratrol in wine.

Unless there is no such thing as the 'French Paradox', or if grape/wine polyphenols are the substances providing a benefit, not resveratrol.

Exactly. I strongly suspect there is no French paradox. Like other paradoxes, it's usually a fundamental mistake in one of our assumptions, and NOT a paradox at all. With the French, the fundamental mistake is that saturated fats--which the French consume in high quantity--leads to heart disease. Therefore, because we falsely believe that saturated fat is bad we need to invent a paradox to explain it, rather than acknowledge that maybe one of our assumptions is wrong.

I'm surprised we don't have an "LDL paradox," because half the people that have cardiovascular events have low to normal LDL. (Of course, the reason is that LDL alone, despite what 99% of all doctors believe, is NOT relevant to health, except at the rare extremes. It's not total LDL that matters, it's the composition of the LDL, something that MOST docs do not test.)