7 replies to this topic

[snoopy456]

I’m hoping you guys can point me in the right direction if I give you enough information. Sorry about the wall of text in advance.

 

50 years of age. Male. Smoker. Cognitive decline began at approximately 35.

Always prone to depression. Sometimes for good reason but more often than not it’s for no good reason. But I have had bouts before that where it’s simply because. In other words no rational reason to be depressed.  I have invasive thoughts, suicidal etc etc. on a regular basis. 

On the cognitive side I used to be able to make the connections and find solutions to problems that have made people go “woah”. I was the kid in school that pissed the teachers off because I could study and pull 100% on tests after screwing around all year. Now I can’t concentrate for more than 10 minutes at a time. And short term memory is poor.

 

2 or 3 hits on marijuana (I haven’t smoked it in 5 years) typically turns me into a giggling idiot or just plain sleepy.

 

Any SSRI’s I have tried for depression or stress turn me into a Zombie and I have typically gotten rid of them after a few days.  Not just emotionally but basically my brain running at half speed. They also make my joints ache (after a couple of weeks trying to quit smoking using a very low dose of chantex/welbutrin).   I haven’t used an SSRI in 5 years. 

 

I have been reading the forums here for years and trying nootropics trying to find a solution to depression because I assumed my cognitive decline was linked to stress and depression.

Most Nootropics seem to have little to no effect on me. 

Modifinal was pretty great for me the first few times I used it. After a few days the effect was it just kept me awake. An improvement in focus and alertness but after week nothing.

Wakalert makes me all sorts of jittery but I liked the mood enhancement but my affect is noticeable to those around me. 

Adrafinal also allows me to get through the day without feeling sleepy and it is my current preference because I can order it in the USA.  However the effects are almost zero at this point.

 

I think I had a major clue Saturday.  I tried MDMA for the first time in my life.

I took it at 8PM Saturday.

A friend gave it to me and he assured me it was good as he and his girlfriend used some from the same batch.

It had no effect on me except when I closed my eyes to go asleep at 12 PM.  There was a rush of colored patters, geometric shapes etc.  I couldn’t sleep so watched another movie until 2.00AM  and was able to sleep about 2.30AM

I hadn’t experienced those geometric shapes, patterns etc. since I was a kid and that is what I typically saw whilst trying to get to sleep. Other than that nothing. None of the heightened emotional or physical touchy feely etc. My friend and I are about the same weight.  I hadn’t touched any Adrafinal 4 days prior to this.  I took Aniracetam on Thursday with L-Theanine . I took L-Theanine  Friday. Saturday only MDMA

The reason I took MDMA is to see if it would jump start some new connections in my brain the same way as LSD will. I have never tried LSD btw.

 

I am leaning towards low Serotonin levels. Thoughts? 

[Area-1255]

If SSRI's 'turned you into a zombie' and had such a profound / dramatic negative effect then I doubt (though it is possible) that you have low serotonin. 

Reinforcing this is the fact you say you tried Ecstasy and it didn't really give you the 'touchy-feely' stuff. 

 

You can ask your Doc/GP to take a 24 hour Urine test for 5-HTIAA ; 5-Hydroxyindoleacetic acid.

Other than that it's a little difficult to tell if what your symptoms are can be directly correlated with only low serotonin.

 

However, on average - low serotonin usually equates to.

 

• Constipation (high serotonin usually causes the opposite; diarrhea and spastic gut disorders)
• Some forms of anxiety; but trending towards impulsivity and aggression in some cases... (though it depends on the person and their personality)
• Emotional Instability or feelings that lead to dramatic actions; or 'falling in love fast'.  (other things are involved though and not everyone with low serotonin falls into this pattern)
• Depression doesn't necessarily occur directly as a result of low serotonin - but it depends on hormone levels and other modulators..in other words, dopamine and serotonin both being deficient is a huge issue leading to despair, anhedonia/dysthmia and other such issues characterized by lack of quality of life and lack of socialization criteria/motivations.
• Having high dopamine and low serotonin though would be sort of different..but again, it depends on hormones and other factors; some people with high dopamine and low serotonin never have any symptoms of mental illness or any sort of psychological manifestations - whereas others may experience impulsivity and anti-social behavior...at the same time - you can have high dopamine and low serotonin and be a very honest, genuine, caring outgoing person..so it depends on environment - upbringing and a lot of other factors yet again.
• When depression occurs co-existent with low serotonin - estrogen is usually high or very low which is the actual root of the issues..and a tendency on high levels of estrogen leads to a dramatification of what some would classify as 'low serotonin symptoms' - hence high E2 leading to , in both men and women; feelings of losing control, panic, rage, bipolar type stuff, hostility, irritability etc.... other symptomatic qualities of low serotonin can be seen as despair, feeling excessively cold or hot...or feeling disconnected with people in general...high and low serotonin both though, can lead to various disperceptions; though of different nature..with high serotonin generally feeling like a psychotic state including depersonalizations and rapid obsessive-compulsive ideations (even ritualistic)... and low serotonin on the other hand can manifest as feelings of ruminations, not 'looking ahead' - taking things personally and engaging in dominance challenges over territory, credit or anything similar...although some argue that high serotonin can create a similar atmosphere...although for w/e reason..high serotonin usually correlates with religious obsessions and anorexia. 
• Low serotonin has a HUGE contrast though with high serotonin; low serotonin generally leads to 'compulsive eating' and a tendency or preference for 'sweets and carbs'...whereas high serotonin tends to lower overall appetite and in women leads to anorexia/bulimia..thus high serotonin individuals become overly stringent in some ways usually not needing many calories at all to get them through the day...
• High serotonin tends to lead to engaging in one's thoughts overly and despite brain fog' - there is a tendency to grandiose-type thoughts...often in a very 'cold' manner.
• Low serotonin on the other hand tends to create 'overt' obsessions and compulsions; like cleaning excessively and keeping things straight - throwing papers out when the 'picture ain't perfect' or writing isn't straight... 

 

 

Hope that helps..here's a few links to help you on your way. 

ALSO, you should get COPPER levels checked - it contributes to how your brain / body handle serotonin , dopamine and norepinephrine etc

 

 

1. http://www.joanmathe...ler_coaster.htm
2. https://www.ncjrs.go...t.aspx?ID=12971
3. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12452254
4. http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3294220/
5. http://robbwolf.com/...inal-disorders/
6. http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2694720/
7. http://www.badgut.or...-and-serotonin/
8. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15886402
9. http://www.sciencedi...091302201902250
10. http://www.sciencedi...006322398001620

 

 

 

Eat Weight Disord. 2002 Sep;7(3):221-31.

Is there a common mechanism of serotonin dysregulation in anorexia nervosa and obsessive compulsive disorder?

Barbarich N1.

Author information

 

Abstract

Numerous studies have documented increased rates of comorbidity in patients with anorexia nervosa (AN) or obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD). The interaction of many possible factors influences this comorbidity, but one possible explanation involves the neurotransmitter serotonin, which is widely distributed in the brain and has been implicated in a number of psychological behaviours. Although low serotonin levels have been found in patients with impulsive and aggressive behaviour, high levels have been correlated with obsessive and compulsive behaviour. In an attempt to further our understanding of this relationship, a large number of studies have measured serotonin levels throughout different stages of illness in both AN and OCD; furthermore, serotonin challenge studies and drug treatment trials have provided further support for this theory. This paper discusses the evidence supporting the view that the obsessive behaviour characteristic of AN and OCD may be partially due to a dysregulation in the serotonergic system.

PMID:   12452254   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

 

 

 

 

[snoopy456]

Thanks for replying.

The symptoms describing high serotonin also apply. Explosive anger towards people around me when I have been under prolonged stress. (I have to work hard at catching myself or apologizing a lot).

I have cut back on the processed sugar as candy etc has always been a weakness and I am less of an asshole these days. I can eat pounds of chocolate a week but have never been overweight. 

I will get some blood work done this week as well as a urine test for 5-HTIAA

 

 

 

[Area-1255]

 

Thanks for replying.

The symptoms describing high serotonin also apply. Explosive anger towards people around me when I have been under prolonged stress. (I have to work hard at catching myself or apologizing a lot).

I have cut back on the processed sugar as candy etc has always been a weakness and I am less of an asshole these days. I can eat pounds of chocolate a week but have never been overweight. 

I will get some blood work done this week as well as a urine test for 5-HTIAA

 

 

Yeah, another thing is if your serotonin is high you might have high blood pressure or either high or low heart rate...could be either. 

 

Here's my thread on symptoms of high serotonin levels...this is aside from serotonin syndrome so it might be right up your alley. 

Good luck brother! Keep us posted!

Edited by Area-1255, 14 September 2015 - 12:22 AM.

[tarasco]

Hi, you are like my mirror....Take a look at this...and, for my part, I apologize for the wall of text but hang in and scroll down to the symptoms and see if you connect....

By the way...I take 5-HTP to raise my Serotonin levels...cuts carb craving and mellows me out....

http://orthomolecula...5n01-p005.shtml

Edited by tarasco, 14 September 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[Aurel]

Area: how would you counter low serotonin? I tried to reduce my ssris in the last days (very small steps) but the panic attacks creep back in (I dont use SSRI for depression). Taking medicine for the rest of my life can not be the only option.

[Area-1255]

Area: how would you counter low serotonin? I tried to reduce my ssris in the last days (very small steps) but the panic attacks creep back in (I dont use SSRI for depression). Taking medicine for the rest of my life can not be the only option.

Depends on what is causing it...usually low serotonin is caused by an underlying methylation issue in the liver or because of messed up hormones...high or low estrogen, high or low progesterone, high or low DHT ; thyroid hormone deficiency or excess, or way too much histamine or repeated viral infections and / or use of antibiotics ....so a good step would be to check histamine levels; supplement with Vitamin D; you could use bacopa monnieri which increases serotonin production instead of affecting the transporters...and then you could also check to see your copper status; including serum and hair copper levels..low serotonin can be caused by either very high or very low copper levels...

 

Also supplement with 

 

• Bromelain
• Acidophilus / Pre&Pro-Biotics; low serotonin is often caused or amplified by digestive issues.

 

So if you ARE ABSOLUTELY SURE that it is low serotonin - in addition to the above supplement with.

 

• Vitamin D
• Bacopa Monnieri

 

 

 

J Ethnopharmacol. 2011 Mar 8;134(1):55-61. doi: 10.1016/j.jep.2010.11.045. Epub 2010 Dec 1.

Bacopa monniera leaf extract up-regulates tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH2) and serotonin transporter (SERT) expression: implications in memory formation.

Charles PD1, Ambigapathy G, Geraldine P, Akbarsha MA, Rajan KE.

Author information

 

Abstract

AIM OF THE STUDY:

To examine the effect of Bacopa monniera leaf ethanolic extract (BMEE) on the serotonergic system of postnatal rats with reference to learning and memory.

MATERIALS AND METHODS:

From postnatal day (PND)-15-29, rats were treated with BMEE (40 mg/kg BW+0.5% gum acacia) by oral gavage. Behavioural tests (Y-maze, hole-board and passive avoidance) were used to evaluate their learning (PND-32-37) and retention of memory (PND-47-53). Effect of BMEE on neurotransmitter system was analyzed by ELISA and semi-quantitative polymerase chain reaction (PCR).

RESULTS:

Oral administration of BMEE improved learning and retention of memory significantly in all behavioural tasks. Following BMEE treatment, the level of serotonin (5-HT) increased while dopamine (DA) decreased significantly. We also found variation in the level of acetylcholine (ACh). However, no significant changes were observed in the level of ACh and glutamate (Glu). The level of 5-HT was significantly elevated up to PND-37 and was then restored to normal level on PND-53. Interestingly, concomitant up-regulation was recorded in the mRNA expression of serotonin synthesizing enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase-2 (TPH2) and serotonin transporter (SERT) on PND-29 and PND-37, which was restored on PND-53.

CONCLUSIONS:

The results suggest that BMEE treatment significantly enhances the learning and retention of memory in postnatal rats possibly through regulating the expression of TPH2, 5-HT metabolism and transport.

Copyright © 2010 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.

PMID:   21129470   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[gamesguru]

the mdma could induce some serotonergic deficits lasting up to 6 months.

 

in addition to the wonderful suggestions already given, i encourage extract of green tea(which modulates serotonin uptake^[1]) and exercise (which acutely boosts TPH2^[2]), and discourage caffeine^[3] and ginseng^[4] (at least as a month trial, to gauge effects).

 

 

 

 

Re-Iterating in Summary

 

An agonist makes sense in mainly the areas of 

 

• -generalized anxiety
• -bonding issues / trust issues
• -sociability issues
• -general libido issues as in fantasies or traditional libido gauging
• -Your nervous system is generally over-excited and heart rate is high.

 

An antagonist makes sense if

 

-You are un-motivated

-You lack primal essence, vigor, aggression etc

-You have circulatory issues or erectile issues apart from libido, or just general lack of nitric oxide production / vasodilation

-You don't get a good pump during workouts

-You feel like you aren't moving forward in life

-You have a tendency to addiction to stimulants or are dependent on caffeine throughout the day.

 

 

But if someone is suffering from all of these points. What to take then?