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Verdict on Lions Mane?

lions mane nootropic nootropics ngf brain

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#241 Vlad

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 03:17 PM

 

 

 

 

These two popular case studies are used everywhere to illustrate how great Lion's Mane 's potential is .

 

I think they are both flawed and unsuitable to base hard conclusions on. Here is why I think that way:

 

They used non-extracted ground Lion's Mane. A few people can digest that well, some can digest that a little bit, some can't digest that at all because chitinous food is not common for most people so the enzyme chitinase is either missing or not active in the stomach. Only an extract is bioavailable for everybody the same way. This was not taken into account, they used Lion's Mane as if it were some product with well-defined fixed properties. It isn't, like all herbs and mushrooms it is a natural product and properties will be affected by strain, cultivation, storage and processing.

 

Also, no objective standard was available / used to determine results. The results were therefore likely to be affected by 'confirmation bias'. Both research reports should be classified as 'anecdotal' at best I think.

 

Dosage should be based on the active compounds in the mushroom supplement. To be credible as scientific research the researchers should first identify the active compounds in the mushroom, using accepted lab-standards (= science), and then use that same product with people using a scientific method of dosing and observation / reporting.

 

That way you can show and prove correlation and causality in a scientific way. Most 'natural products research' unfortunately is flawed that way.


Edited by Vlad, 29 August 2018 - 03:22 PM.


#242 jroseland

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 11:47 AM

So which product for Lions Mane do you guys recommend?

I've been using this Lion's Mane rich stack...



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#243 jroseland

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 12:35 PM

Also Know As: Phallus indusiata (causes orgasmic reaction to smelling these in some women but not any men).

Really? Do tell us more...



#244 MattyG

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Posted 02 March 2019 - 11:43 PM

I love Lions Mane. It’s definitely one of my favourite brain enhancers. I think most people don’t use a high dosage enough. I use anywhere from 2 1/2 to 5 g a day. It does seem to take awhile to kick in. I would say takes around 4 weeks. My memory has dramatically improved as a result of taking it. And when I stop I deafly start noticing a decline after a few weeks. For me it is a staple.

#245 Vlad

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Posted 03 March 2019 - 08:54 AM

I love Lions Mane. It’s definitely one of my favourite brain enhancers. I think most people don’t use a high dosage enough. I use anywhere from 2 1/2 to 5 g a day. It does seem to take awhile to kick in. I would say takes around 4 weeks. My memory has dramatically improved as a result of taking it. And when I stop I deafly start noticing a decline after a few weeks. For me it is a staple.

 

 

What matters in particular is the quality of the extract I think. 99% is utterly useless, objectively speaking.

 

I saw this post on Reddit, it is a great summary: https://www.reddit.c...ntial_what_is/ 



#246 Forever21

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 09:34 PM

Reddit/Nootropics Depot has spoken to address the terpenes argument by Oriveda.

 

My comments:

  • I take no sides. I use both, client of both, consumer of both products. I just want the best Lion's Mane for cognitive benefits.
     
  • It concerns me greatly that Reddit/Nootropics Depot wouldn't allow free speech and refuses to engage in a dialogue, a debate, a public back and forth unfiltered argument. If ND's arguments can stand scrutiny, then they wouldn't have this concern to allow the other side to speak. (Yes I've heard all the reasoning: not allow propaganda, not driving traffic to that other company, etc etc) The point remains. If your argument is sound, then it should bask in the light of truth, openly, publicly, lay it all out there, the other side is wrong? Let them reveal it then, let them expose themselves, not silencing them, not banning and deleting, not even allowing to have that "word" Oriveda mentioned. It's very cult-like, and looks like they're hiding something or preventing others from knowing something.
     
  • Having said that, the other side, Oriveda, do they even have a good product at all? If the ND post on Reddit is to be believed, Oriveda's products are not part of rigorous testing, regulatory body, and just making claims that aren't really shared by an authoritative group that's been doing this for over a hundred years. If with something like terpenes, Oriveda cannot be trusted, what of the others in Oriveda's Lion's Mane. Are they even worth using at all? I've spent a lot on this and over time it adds up, if this isn't any better than ND's Lion's Mane, then why buy Oriveda at all? ND's arguments on terpenes are compelling. I haven't seen Oriveda's rebuttals, but the arguments presented are enough to cast doubt on using Oriveda. I don't mind the other issues they are accused of (bad advertising, making claims) I am more interested in the product itself, what's in it? Is it any good?
     
  • As a consumer, I would continue to buy both, use both. But I hope to learn more about this and if one product is better and the other is just full of shit, then that would be great to know as well, as this cost a lot of money.
     
  • I am posting this here, coz Oriveda doesn't have a space I could ask this to online. I don't want to email and get their one sided response. I also don't want to post this on Reddit as I question their practice of censoring voices they don't like. Thank God I have Longecity where this can be posted without censorship. And I hope both sides would be arguing HERE, in the open, publicly, not in their own controlled-environment where the other is either silenced or have no chance to respond.

Edited by Forever21, 18 May 2019 - 10:25 PM.

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#247 GABAergic

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 03:08 AM

you are buying both? dude in order to waste so much money there must be dinifitive proof that lions mane absolutely helps with cognition. and to this day, i cant find a single good reliable study in humans without some sponsorship. even if their producs are true and not fakes, still where is the reliable study not organized by a company that proves it helps humans in any way?


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#248 Vlad

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 02:17 PM

 

  •  If the ND post on Reddit is to be believed, Oriveda's products are not part of rigorous testing, regulatory body, and just making claims that aren't really shared by an authoritative group that's been doing this for over a hundred years.

 

 

I just read the threads on Reddit. You left out the main thread, where the ND POV is put in perspective. As stated there the ND reply is beside the point, it is not about Lion's Mane. It is the usual look-at-me-working-my-ass-off-for-you-guys rhetoric. But where 's the beef ? Oriveda have made all their test reports available on their website. They now do guarantee the erinacines / hericenones in Lion's Mane, yah. With a third party test report, impressive. 

 

But hey you can't expect the ND guy to admit he won't share test results because that makes his product probably look shitty in comparison.

 

I have used some of ND's nootropics in the past and they were good. I won't touch their mushroom stuff, which appears basic and exchangeable with a dozen other online offerings, quality-wise.  I really dislike their lack of actual transparency, imo issuing home-made data sheets formatted to look like actual analysis certificates is questionable. Again, where 's the beef ?

Another thing OP if you are using both products did you notice differences ? 


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#249 Forever21

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 06:45 PM

I just read the threads on Reddit. You left out the main thread, where the ND POV is put in perspective. 

 

I didn't know about this place, this thread until now.

 

I don't think I noticed any difference but that applies to 99% of over 100 nootropics/supplements I take.

 

Thanks for that link above. 



#250 GABAergic

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 07:52 PM

vlad, you are a specialist. what do you think about this recent article; http://www.ergo-log....one-levels.html

so, from what i can see its sponsored by the company seen in the picture there. pharmanex. i checked their product and it costs 96 dollars! wow it either definately works or those guys are some crazy scammers. who can afford this? i was looking for what it makes it special and they have a video on it if you care to see and tell me what you think too; https://www.nuskin.c...t.01003519.html



#251 Vlad

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 09:36 PM

vlad, you are a specialist. what do you think about this recent article; http://www.ergo-log....one-levels.html

so, from what i can see its sponsored by the company seen in the picture there. pharmanex. i checked their product and it costs 96 dollars! wow it either definately works or those guys are some crazy scammers. who can afford this? i was looking for what it makes it special and they have a video on it if you care to see and tell me what you think too; https://www.nuskin.c...t.01003519.html

 

 

Interesting article, i.p. because most research seems to point at anti-androgenic effects of Reishi. Testosterone boosting is the opposite.

 

It's not the 'proprietary methods' that makes a product better, but the outcome of those methods. Here the product is ReishiMax.

 

The specifications of ReishiMax are, I quote: "ReishiMax GLp,® is standardized to 6% triterpenes and 13.5% polysaccharides, which are the highest levels of actives currently available in a Reishi product."

 

ReishiMax is not a bad product but it is bad value for money. The specs are good but there are better ones (their claim is a marketing statement) and the price is daylight robbery. I won't mention the brand but there's one with twice the capsules, 50% better specs and 20 dollars cheaper. With test reports to back it all up. And  oh yes they do not specify polysaccharides but beta-glucan. 

 

Beta-glucan is the only polysaccharide that matters according to research. Not all polysaccharides are beta-glucans. 


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#252 GABAergic

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 02:31 AM

good, thanks informative as usual. why arent you allowed to mention any products? let me assume, its oriveda? anyway, i think people should mention products if they think they are worth taking. im skeptical anyone would afford the product i mentioned and im not even sure it works. just too much risk



#253 GABAergic

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 10:43 PM

Vlad, i sent you a private massage a week ago dude. are you still around or you just missed it??


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#254 Consequences

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 11:38 AM

Tried Reishi and had amazing dreams but other than that not really any cognitive benefit.

 

Then I tried Lion's Mane by Time Health it came in a pack with 7 other mushrooms...huge difference to mood and cognition. But everyone said "you get so little that it's not worth it" so I stopped that and bought some Lion's Mane, fruiting body extract from MindNutrition, which is NAMMEX I believe the same as "Real Mushrooms". I found this worked well, and I got the itching that supposedly signifies NGF.

 

Then I bought some Oriveda LM from Oriveda on Amazon UK which was very expensive based on what I read on Reddit about triterpenes and I am pretty sure I was sold garbage... they were out of stock at the time I ordered, and I got this stuff eventually, it smelt like dark chocolate. I took it for a few weeks and noticed none of the itchiness and little if any cognitive effect, but gave me uncontrollable liquid shits. Actually shat myself 3 seperate times...fortunately not in public.

Some things stick out and it's a sad shame in the mushroom world:

 

- Oriveda don't allow reviews, claiming that reviews can be faked, which is correct. However a certain redditor called Kostya93 other runs a mushroom subreddit that all the reishi and LM advocates go on...if you recommend a product that's not Oriveda you get downvoted or moderated. I am pretty sure "kostya93" is Oriveda. Some of the things he says are very consistent in both info and tone that Oriveda states such as this sentence:

 

 

The oriveda Amazon reviews are about a previous version of their product I think but even then, reviews or testimonials are not a good valuation tool IMO.

 

 

 

- Yet the huge nootropic subreddit is "owned" by Nootropics Depot which is NAMMEX distributor and you have similar behaviour there too.

It's hard to pick a product when the two supposed top manufacturers/distributors effectively "own" the two top subreddits.

 

Also notice on /r/supplements, who's moderators are unclear (hidden), Kostya93 is allowed to say whatever he likes, whilst Real Mushrooms (Nammex) posts get deleted by moderators. Unfortunatly for Reddit someone made a handy tool so you can see removed posts:

Screenshot-64.png

 

I wish I could just go pick it and create my own alcohol based dropper from a lot of it but it doesn't grow here. I am considering importing LM "bark" from China and making tea out of it and just megadosing it every so often but again...where is legit?


Edited by Consequences, 09 June 2019 - 11:52 AM.

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#255 Consequences

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 11:58 AM

I just read the threads on Reddit. You left out the main thread, where the ND POV is put in perspective. As stated there the ND reply is beside the point, it is not about Lion's Mane. It is the usual look-at-me-working-my-ass-off-for-you-guys rhetoric. But where 's the beef ? Oriveda have made all their test reports available on their website. They now do guarantee the erinacines / hericenones in Lion's Mane, yah. With a third party test report, impressive. 

 

But hey you can't expect the ND guy to admit he won't share test results because that makes his product probably look shitty in comparison.

 

I have used some of ND's nootropics in the past and they were good. I won't touch their mushroom stuff, which appears basic and exchangeable with a dozen other online offerings, quality-wise.  I really dislike their lack of actual transparency, imo issuing home-made data sheets formatted to look like actual analysis certificates is questionable. Again, where 's the beef ?

Another thing OP if you are using both products did you notice differences ? 

 

You mean the thread where "Kostya93" accidentally deletes his own post via moderator delete tool and not user delete tool, and then reposts it with further details?

https://snew.notabug...tm_medium=web2x

Are you Kostya93?

 

The name Kostya is a Russian baby name. In Russian the meaning of the name Kostya is: Constant.

 

The name Vlad is a Russian name short for Vladimir.

 

Oh wow isn't that a big synchronicity.


Edited by Consequences, 09 June 2019 - 12:02 PM.

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#256 GABAergic

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 10:09 PM

consequences, stop getting so obsessed with reddit posts and reviews. there are shitload of products on the market that arent oriveda or nammex so not sure whats the problem really. if you have the money and interest you would have tried dozens more instead of just picking on two manufacturers.

also, itching is associated with overstimulation of immune system as mushrooms can cause that. its related to elevation in histamine. its has nothing to do with NGF. otherwise opiates would be considered NGF masterworks.



#257 Consequences

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Posted 10 June 2019 - 04:35 PM

I don't like wasting money. If you do maybe you can go and buy them all then let me know which ones work and which are bunk? 99% of them are bunk... non fruiting bodies grown in filler, like Host Defense. Or the alcohol based dropper ones which are 99% alcohol 1% fruiting body.

 

 

itching is associated with overstimulation of immune system as mushrooms can cause that. its related to elevation in histamine. its has nothing to do with NGF. otherwise opiates would be considered NGF masterworks.

 

https://en.wikipedia...l_sensitization

 

I think you should go and read some more books.



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#258 GABAergic

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Posted 10 June 2019 - 07:15 PM

this you posted is part of a whole page about itch and you seem to focus your attention on a small portion that doesnt really say it enhances NGF in the brain in any positive way. its related to noiception and inflamation. yes, NGF is not as simple as you probably believe it is. it is all over your body and it constantly activates and deactivates for various reasons and its not always a positive thing. it makes sense to cause itch, but that doesnt do anything positive for the brain. if anything, people should look into lions manes gut biome for answers if it actually does have any nootropic activity because thats where it lands anyway.

and im pretty sure because all mushrooms have immune stimulating activities, they can cause itch. some mushrooms can also cause itch because of other substances in them like ;

https://en.wikipedia...room_dermatitis

if they actually induce NGF, you dont seem to know what NGF does overall in the entire body and not just the brain.


Edited by GABAergic, 10 June 2019 - 07:17 PM.

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