1) Live 50 years in misery, then let me know if you still think you'd rather live like that. Some people do it, some people don't. Obviously, across the world, people live in utter deprivation and continue to survive and continue to have the will to live. In truth, I do too--all I said was that I'd rather have a shorter lifespan that was of quality than a longer one that was of misery, but I am in no hurry to die. On the other hand, I also have no fear of death and don't mind the concept. This is a philosophical position and nothing more; I definitely fear pain and I fear many of the illness and frailties associated with old age, but not death in it of itself or "oblivion" (I am an atheist). And to answer the question, before it is asked: Why am I here? Because I find the topic(s) fascinating, figure I can learn somethings and perhaps enjoy a healthy lifestyle all in all. Moreover, if given the choice, I'd prefer to have the option to live an extended lifespan and choose the time of my own death, not have it chosen for me. I dont question why your here, you have great ideas and offer a lot. Im just splitting hairs here on this perspective that I think may actually be crucial.
2) If a scientist "cured aging" or discovered something along those lines, um, anything the Mprize could offer said scientist/scientists would be minuscule in comparison to the riches and fame they'd get from a gazillion sources. As for motivation: A scientist is going to be motivated towards the field of anti-aging out of their own curiosity and interest, or they won't be--the possibility of some money via the Mprize is dwarfed by the sort of money they could make much more reliably in other fields. Finally, a scientist who had a real legitimate basis for a grant towards a cure to aging wouldn't need the Mprize--there are so many firms and government grants that'd line up for them in a second.
3) I've seen some press for the Mprize and it doesn't exactly stir me. I think if we want to get publicity for our efforts, we need to hire A) A good PR firm. B) Target specific groups/scientists/etc in different fields for very specified grants. The combination of good PR with intelligent placement of grants is better than the Mprize, which to me, is only marginally better than a publicity stunt. But PR, lobbying, celebrity spokesmen, etc--would all pay better dividends, in the field of communication, than the Mprize. So would solid grants to a diverse set of scientists in varying fields working towards (via different methods and ideas) the goal of "curing aging".
4) You're an optimist on a scale that is heart-warming, on one hand, but not justified on another. It would be an understatement to say I do not share your optimism, especially in human nature. I'll leave it at that.
5) I dislike the D-Day analogy. I dislike most analogies, because they oversimplify the argument, while attempting to lend it legitimacy, but I find the D-Day analogy especially trite. Sorry, it just doesn't work for me. That doesn't say you can't buy into the D-Day analogy and send your money to the Mprize, but short of hard, verifiable results, I am not buying this.
1. This reminds me of one of the best books Ive ever read, Victor Frankls, "Mans Search for Meaning". Frankl was in a concentration camp for many years. The whole point of the book was that he found that those frail and sickly people who survived seemed to always be the ones that had something to live for, something they wanted to get back to really badly, that they thought was really important, like their wife, or a book they were writing, or something. He found that the people who gave up and died were the ones that didnt really see anything with enough value to compensate for the suffering now, in getting back to. Those that tended to bear through to the end did have something in mind, could hold on through extreme hunger and rash, vomiting, stomach spasms, frost bitten feet, dislocated bones from sleeping on wood on their sides, and then working heavy grunt labor in those conditions. Well if they could hold on through that for their wives or book projects or things like that, then I would think that we could shoud would all hold up through similar or lesser suffering for the chance at what I call the big 8. This whole concept that Im going over here is a big reason why I think that a list of concepts like that "big 8" or something similar to it needs to be memed in some how. Im working on outlining some ideas for it in this simple projects list that a bunch of us are getting ready to launch to life extension minded people, on line #34. I dont question why your here, you have great ideas and offer a lot. Im just splitting hairs here on this perspective that I think may actually be crucial.
2. Ive heard Aubrey outline it in videos many times, your reasons are some of the main reasons why the mprize is a great concept. There are no firms lined up for these good ideas, and nobody wants to work in the bio gerontolical engineering field if they can go and get a grant to make softer toilet paper and make millions off that someplace else. You say they will be motivated by their own curiosity or interest, or they wont be, but Aubrey says, and I agree, that to the contrary, they will be motivated by whatever is going to put money in their pockets and house payments in the bank, and food on the table. The mprize isnt a sure fired thing, but it does definently offer an great incentive in that direction that would other wise not be there. You say if they cured aging they would be rich and famous anyways, true, but they arent asking them to cure aging, they are asking them to beat the previous mouse longevity record. This news, the greater they beat the record by, will be more and more extrodinary by degree, and will create more and more of a hype and buzz in the minds of the world as it does. This buzz will motivate people to donate more and to put life extension on political platforms, making it harder and harder to get elected unless you support further breakthroughs.
3. I know what you mean though, and I know your not a "pessimist, dragging down the cause," Im just saying. Also, mprize may not stir you now, but it certainly will when the first radical longevity breakthroughs from it are put in the newspapers. That is the whole point of the mprize. To garner exposure. Although, persuing other avenues along with it like the ones you suggest are certainly needed avenues. A bunch of us outline projects, or the begining of projects for things like that here. That page is rough draft. We are working on cleaning it up, and readying it for launch to a wider base of indefinite life extension volunteers. You could either work with us to help get it going, or contact Mind and Bruce and Susan, they were talking about that exact thing at the Convergence conference. You can see the video here.
4. This reminds me of the concept that "Whether you think we can or we cant, you are right." You are the change that makes the difference, with out all the pessimimists coming to our side it will be a lot harder, but if all the pessimists would not use their pessimism as a reason to not step up more, then we would be a lot better off. If half the soldiers of d day used their pessimism about its potential success as reason to back out then we probably wouldnt have won. Now you I imagine would say something like, "well this is different and complex in different ways and we cant say that banding together and creating a good outcome in one place is any indication that it will work here." Well of course, we dont know that anything is going to work until we put our all into it. We can though be certain that it going to be slower going in correlation to the degree that our all isnt going into it. This equation just occured to me, it seems you could put it that potential plus optimism equals aptitude.
5. That is what some people often say about analogies. But you are missing the point, it is an analogy. Their purpose is to over simplify the argument. Their point is not to lend legitamacy but rather to be inspiring. Hard battles can be won when the people go all out. They are not won when they dont. Imagine Eisenhowers men using an analogy to d day, "Men, we are embarking on a great mission, they told Henry Ford that a mechanical horse could never work or replace the horse, but they banded together and made it happen." (I cant think of a profound analogy that Eisenhowers men might use so bear with that one)
"But that doesnt lend this invasion plan any legitamacy." Its not meant to persay, its meant to inspire.
Edited by brokenportal, 24 November 2008 - 10:42 PM.
