132 replies to this topic

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Hi, I need some advice. Basically, I suffer almost 5 years now. Docs have no clue what is wrong. It's not depression, not schizophrenia. Anyway, my mind is blank all the time, like someone turned off my brain. I just look at things and I can't think, its weird and debilitating... The other symptoms are anhedonia and huuuuge apathy. Anyone had this type of symptoms? It ruined my life completely. I only react to stimulants like ethylphenidate. The most possible diagnosis for me is schizophrenia simplex - anyone know about it anything? Thanks. 

[jaiho]

Yup its basically Anhedonia. Been through any big stresses lately? Or been on an SSRI?

[gamesguru]

sounds like brain fog.  could be mild borderline, ADD, plus a little inflammation or viral load.

 

Flex also used ethylphenidate, but much to his detriment.

[jaiho]

It's all linked to Anhedonia. The mind blankness/lack of imagination or ability to visualise. The brain is basically shut down from chronic stress, and it affects many systems. Anhedonia is a symptom of MDD.

Try to get on some potent ADs, Michael. Stimulants aren't sustainable.

 

Many people confused Depression as sadness, it simply isn't. It's a void of nothing. Your brain cannot see, cannot feel, it just exists in a zombie state until its safe to reenter the environment (less stress) or environment change. Or it could be from trauma.

 

Something like an SSRI + TCA combo or Full MAOI like Parnate.

 

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Yup, it started when I was 15 and I was going through stressful time. And then, anhedonia very slowly progressed to this day when I can't feel anything. I'm dead inside. So, there is possibility that it's rare type of depression which is similar to negative symptoms of schiz? I also hear music in my head, 24/7 + tinnitus. 1 year ago I was hospitilized and they diagnosed me with personality disorder - they call it "bad developing personality" - and I think it's bullshit. Polish psychiatry is full of ignorant docs. Sometimes, I just want to die but I don't have any motivation to take my life. U need to feel extreme emotions to do this. I tried AD's like: fluoxetine, tianeptine, bupropion, venlafaxine + mirtazapine, reboxetine, lamotrigine, piribedil, amisulpiride(low dose), quetiapine. Only relief I got from ethy/methylphenidate and smaller from venlafaxine. Supplements/nootropics: piracetam 4.8g x3/day, noopept, sunifiram, huperzine, cdp-choline, l-tyrosine, NALT, creatine, Mucuna Pruriens, Omega 3, sarcosine, DAA, glycine, NAC, vitamin D, good source of magnesium and probably something else.

[jaiho]

I've done a shitload of research into this, since i suffer the same thing and your symptoms resonate with me.

 

You want a cocktail that will not numb you, and provides sufficient balance of neurotransmission. SRI dominance typically induces numbness.

 

A friend of mine was put on high dose zoloft + wellbutrin, and brought back full emotions.

Many people report success with higher dose Parnate.

Basically keep trying combinations until you hit the magic. If a drug is numbing you (after it has adjusted, 6~ weeks) then it isn't the right one.

 

the man i have faith in for this is Dr Gillman. http://www.psychotropical.com

 

He suggests Zoloft + Nortriptyline first, and if fails at max dosages, move onto Parnate. He's given remission to 1000s of patients.

 

Don't think of it as a rare type of depression, its actually quite common, Anhedonia is the #1 symptom of MDD, but many people also experience excess emotions, while we are on the opposite end, complete lack of them.

Anti depressants are commonly seen as to numb you, which also isn't true. It's only true if its the incorrect med for your neurochemistry.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

So I need to find another doc that will prescribe me this combo... It's not going to be simple. 

[jaiho]

unfortunately you might have to self prescribe. Easy to get a zoloft prescription, then buy the Nortriptyline online, or from another doctor..

Many doctors have no idea how to treat emotionally blocked people. You'd need a psychiatrist, but even then, most of them are useless.

[neuralis]

1 year ago I was hospitilized and they diagnosed me with personality disorder - they call it "bad developing personality" - and I think it's bullshit.

However unlikely it seems, there may be some truth to it. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...nality_disorder

 

Does any of this resonate in any way??

[jaiho]

Also, if SSRI + TCA doesn't work, Parnate + a stimulant like Ritalin or Amphetamine is a very potent combo.

You can also combine Nortriptyline with Parnate, the Nortriptyline with its NRI action will disable the diet requirements. Or Reboxetine with Parnate.

Many pdocs don't even know that. 

 

Anhedonia is basically a very deep depression that is not easily identifiable. My moods are still good, but there is still a big emotional blockage. I had success with NSI-189 + Moclobemide in the past, but it stopped working (Likely due to Cannabis) So i'm giving that up to give it another whirl.

If nothing i also go back to the SSRI + TCA combo, and i always have Parnate on hand as well. 

 

Basically you have to have a drug stash for this, swap between things when it's no longer working. The ultimate end game treatment is high dose Parnate + Stimulants, and after that, DBS. (90%+ remission)

 

Noone has the patience, or money to keep doing to doctors for their advice on treatments. Sure, they can monitor your moods, but they can't see your emotions. 

Edited by jaiho, 24 February 2016 - 06:16 AM.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Lol. It's not schizoid. Just bad developing personality, nothing more. 

[medievil]

Amphetamine with memantine could be a solution, amphetamine is at the moment succesfully been trialled for negative symptions in shizophrenia like anhedonia and apathy with great succes.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Yeah, I know that but in Poland, we only have methylphenidate which is helping me a lot. I can only dream about Adderall.

[medievil]

Does it help you enough? in my case i dont like ritalin but atleast i feel normal instead of horrific.

[jaiho]

what about meth? lol

[medievil]

Methamphetamine or desxyn is reported to be alot smoother then amphetamine in contrast to what you may beleive.

 

ive never tried it, i can get the street meth but it costs me 20 euro a gram, thats too pricy but im curious.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Not enough but at least I can engage in some activities. 

[medievil]

Have you got ADHD symptions? in most european countrys youll be able to get dexamphetamine or vyvanse.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Nope. Anyway, only methylphenidate is available here.

[medievil]

Try to augment it with rasagiline and wellbutrin, wb is a ne releaser and the rasagiline would turn it into a more dopaminergic drug while also dramatically potentiating the da effects of ritalin, so it might work closer as compared to amp.

[gamesguru]

from this excellent read:

 

A dopamine role in anhedonia may also explain why 5HT and/or NE antidepressant medications do not adequately address this symptom...

antidepressant effects of these agents can be blocked entirely by D2-like receptor antagonists...

the well-documented temporal delay between reuptake inhibition and clinical effects suggests that the therapeutic action of these drugs may involve downstream mechanisms, including alterations in DA function...

→ Reversal of stress-induced anhedonia by the dopamine receptor agonist, pramipexole.

→ Assessing the effects of bupropion SR on mood dimensions of depression.

 

Glutamatergic projections from the ACC to the NAcc appear to be critical for effort-based decision-making behavior in animals...

Future research will be required to determine whether monoaminergic alterations in MDD are downstream consequences of glutamatergic dysfunction....

→ The neurobiological properties of Tianeptine (Stablon, antidepressant): from monoamine hypothesis to glutamatergic modulation
→ Preliminary Evidence of Riluzole (glutamate synthesis and GABA breakdown inhibitor) Efficacy in Antidepressant-Treated Patients with Residual Depressive Symptoms

 

Accruing evidence suggests that that opioid systems play a pivotal role in reward ‘liking’. 

→ Antidepressant-like effects of kappa-opioid receptor antagonists in the forced swim test in rats.

→ Neural correlates of change in major depressive disorder anhedonia following open-label ketamine. (suggests ketamine is more effective than Riluzole)

→ Opiates as antidepressants.

 

Neurobiological models of personality have previously emphasized dissociations between “approach” and “consumption” of rewards, with the former constituting a behavioral activation system. These models further posited that DA is primarily linked with approach emotions, and might therefore underlie individual differences in reward seeking behaviors and psychopathology...

 

Across a variety of studies, ‘liking’ and ‘wanting’ have been linked to a variety of brain regions, neural circuits and neurotransmitters. These include the neurotransmitter dopamine and opioid neuropeptides, sub-cortical structures such as the basal ganglia and striatum (particularly the nucleus accumbens (NAcc), ventral pallidum (VP), ventral tegmental area (VTA), substantia nigra (SN), amygdala and hippocampus, as well as cortical regions such as the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (vmPFC), encompassing aspects of orbital frontal cortex (OFC), anterior cingulate cortex (ACC) and medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC)

 

 

here is a related article on ADHD and reward deficiency or decisional anhedonia

Edited by gamesguru, 04 May 2016 - 07:37 PM.

[Examfit Nootropic Formula]

Schizophrenia simplex? I hope it wasn't the doctor who diagnosed you with such condition over these symptoms.

 

Being anhedoniac and brain-fogged is never without cause, but far from being per defintium schizophrenic. Let me stress just some of the causes which are never thought of but still quite common culprits (and sadly quite hard to prove):

 

- It might be that you suffer from leaking gut - toxins and non-disintegrated particles are flowing direct to your bloodstream (burdening your liver, kidneys and finally your brain). 

-It might be hormonal balances - this is seen especially in women ... but also in men if you have overexpressed aromatase (converting testosterone to estrogen) this can get you in depressive or indifferent mode. It might be that you have high cortisol, have you test it? What about hypothyroidism, test that also.

-Often people with that have low GABA (try with supplementation) or glutamate problems, overexcited neurons, problems with depolarisation (since we cannot test this, you can only self-test it). Stack it with Mg (best if magnesium-l-threonate) to buffer overexcited. There is homeostasis between Ca and Mg ions in in our neurons, constantly jumping from arousal to relaxation...you might have overexcited neurons - nothing ordinarily activates your neurons anymore - and that is why only stims are getting you high - try the opposite approach. Include nootropic and stack caffeine (I wouldn't use glutamate activators such as adderall or ritalin) with adaptogens such as Rhodiola, Schisandra, Panax ginseng, Cordyceps, Aswhagandha...always. 

-You didn't tell us a single thing about your lifestyle? You might eating too much sugar, burdening your insulin response. Are you suffering from diabetes and not knowing? On the other hand, are you maybe on paleo/keto/low fat diet? Are brains are made primarily out of phoshpolipids and not consuming enough fat...fail....we mentioned hormones, not consuming enough cholesterol results in low dhea, leading to low test and high cortisol. Do you sleep enough and throughout the whole night? Do you do any sport? 

-Are you 100% healthy? Have you been tested for Lyme disease - a friend of mine had a similar symptoms. You must first exclude any autoimmune disease (check you IGG)...there has been multiple cases of people having Sjogren's syndrome - are you experiencing dry mouth? What about allergies - are you taking antihistamines? It has been shown that many of them cause apathy, I remember reading about article how simple paracetamol causes serious apathy...

-After everything written above is resolved, try combining noopept, large dose of alpha-GPC, MgT, adaptogens and stimulants (moderate amount) and see if it helps.

 

Now you how many things you must take into consideration addressing your issues. Tell us a bit more about you lifestyle/general health and maybe we can think of something:)

Greg

[Quaker32]

Jaiho (and anybody else), I'm confused about something and wonder if you can please lear it up for me. you say that an SSRI is worth taking if somebody has anehdionia, but you also wrote that taking an SSRI can lead to anerondia. How likely is that to happen? Does that just not set up a very very vicious circle?

 

thx

Edited by Quaker32, 04 January 2017 - 04:52 PM.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

The latest MRI showed slightly enlarged ventricles, larger pfc fluid-space & deficits in cerebellum.

 

 

btw. I'm waking up with anxiety and strange, very empty feeling, like my memory has been erased. Could it be from magnesium depletion from venlafaxine+ritalin? Both are apettite supressors and diuretic.

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 04 January 2017 - 09:33 PM.

[Quaker32]

I'm having the same memory problems. just be careful if you supplement with magnesium - i potentially had some difficulties with magnesium l-threonate. i know a few people on here rave about it, but i would be easy because it acts on NMDA receptors which are not a great idea for people who already have dissociative problems. 

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Waiting for SPECT scan... June 30. 

 

Additionaly, my thyroid started to malfunction. My levels of TSH and FT4 are slighty elevated and I'm taking levothyroxine. Sometimes I have rage attacks/irritability and anxiety. FFS... I hate my life. 

 

Anyone got useful informations? 

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 27 May 2017 - 08:54 PM.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

I'll receive SPECT scan tomorrow.
And to all of that, my thyroid is underactive. USG scan showed some abnormalities. So it can be Hashimoto. Last 15 days I feel completely drained from energy, completely fatigued and apathethic. Im sleepy all the time but can't fall asleep. But when I do, Im waki g up after 6 hrs and cant fall asleep anymore for 15-18hrs. It happened when I've started taking levothyroxine...

[Rick05]

I have this for two years now. 7 years ago took antibiotics for teeth. Probably long term dosage if that matters, im suspicious about that. Back then drank coffee and felt superb, over time felt less and less fine after coffee. Then at some point felt less and less good, started drinking more of it up to 3 cups daily and to no effect. Same thing about physical workouts, felt great great great and then less less less and less and at some point felt nothing after workout. And around that moment my memory died, kept forgetting things, conversation details, dating was a nightmare because I confused girls which said what, I couldn't read a book or even watching movie was a pretty shallow feeling with zero enjoyment. Loosing orientation in time like forgetting what day is it and forgetting common names of things from time to time.

 

So you say its anhedonia? How would you advice to treat it? I asked lots of docs they said it looks like it. I tried tons of racetams and it made some effect but I'd say 10-30%, it helped somewhat with memory a little bit but not at all with long term memory and shallow emotions

[jaiho]

I have this for two years now. 7 years ago took antibiotics for teeth. Probably long term dosage if that matters, im suspicious about that. Back then drank coffee and felt superb, over time felt less and less fine after coffee. Then at some point felt less and less good, started drinking more of it up to 3 cups daily and to no effect. Same thing about physical workouts, felt great great great and then less less less and less and at some point felt nothing after workout. And around that moment my memory died, kept forgetting things, conversation details, dating was a nightmare because I confused girls which said what, I couldn't read a book or even watching movie was a pretty shallow feeling with zero enjoyment. Loosing orientation in time like forgetting what day is it and forgetting common names of things from time to time.

 

So you say its anhedonia? How would you advice to treat it? I asked lots of docs they said it looks like it. I tried tons of racetams and it made some effect but I'd say 10-30%, it helped somewhat with memory a little bit but not at all with long term memory and shallow emotions

 

http://psychotropica...al-ad-algorithm

[sentics]

maybe you find some inspiration from selfhacked's writeup on depersonalization 

 

https://selfhacked.c...tial-solutions/

Edited by sentics, 08 July 2017 - 12:25 PM.